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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On November 22 2024 22:13 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2024 21:13 Sadist wrote:
Zeo, Russia is the one sabre rattling about nuclear war. No one else.
Literally every week there is Sabre Rattling coming out of there. Only one country is pretending using nuclear weapons in limited capacity will be OK.
Yes, escalation as an answer to the UK and US firing missiles into Russian territory, which itself is an answer to Russian escalation which in turn was an answer to Kiev escalation ect ect it goes on and on. The worst thing that can happen is if one side doesnt have anything left to escalate with.
But how is it different from Russia firing Iranian drone in Ukraine? Escalation is true, but it's an abstract concept that lives only in the mind of the victim.
It's the classical Karpman triangle, where you take turn between being the aggressor and then becoming the victim.
It's the very root of human conflict, you need to have 1 victim, 1 helper, 1 aggressor.
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On November 23 2024 03:44 Tom_ wrote:
So why did you post this irrelevant pic?
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On November 23 2024 03:50 Tom_ wrote:
You didn't, you talked about other things.
To address this other thing that you said, I do not believe that diplomacy with fascists prevents war, because war is an integral part of fascist ideology. The reason why Russia did what it did is because it's run by a fascist. Politics are simple.
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On November 23 2024 03:18 Tom_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2024 03:16 KT_Elwood wrote:
What's your point?
Ukraine shoudl have just rolled over, belly up and accept a president like Lukashenko?
Great. I suggest you invent that time travel machine and put it to good use. The rest of us poor shmucks are stuck over here in the present, where if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
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Has there been any word on how Europe is taking steps to increase their capability to defend themselves? Plans for artillery factories, increased budget, or any other such things?
I am not sure if this would even be information made public. So maybe its an invalid question. I know there's the whole "democracy takes time" thing, which is why I don't mean some factory being built as we speak. I just mean are they discussing it? Have any suggestions been made? I'm curious what steps Europe plans to take to ensure they are less reliant on the US.
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Those plans are public but horribly boring. There's not much to say other than they exist and it's hard to say which parts of them are realistic and which are just wishful thinking. There's no grand strategy that includes and coordinates all of those national and European initiatives though.
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That is depressing and concerning. But its not like the leaders of these European countries don't care about their own survival or national security. I will just assume this is another situation where the the deep workings of global military dynamics is entirely beyond my knowledge and things are more ok than they appear.
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Northern Ireland23666 Posts
Man this thread went fucking mental since I last popped in eh?
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On November 23 2024 09:27 Mohdoo wrote:
That is depressing and concerning. But its not like the leaders of these European countries don't care about their own survival or national security. I will just assume this is another situation where the the deep workings of global military dynamics is entirely beyond my knowledge and things are more ok than they appear.
It is hard to do things in democracies that are unpopular and expensive. The big dollars will always make the news, and be talked about. As people get less of a global view they see the threat as far away. There is a reason why the spending on military, as well as the help to Ukraine, basically gets less the further you get away from Russia. It took Pearl harbor to bring the Americans into ww2. I mean how many people get warned about whatever by their doctor but don't do the thing until it is too late. This is not a heck of a lot different. And the whole not trusting experts being the cool thing there is really no way to "prove" something is a threat until it happens and you will always be able to find someone who says they have secret "big military (in this case) is just telling you this so they can get their kickbacks or more money themselves.
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On November 22 2024 19:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2024 19:40 vova_ wrote:On November 22 2024 19:35 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2024 18:58 vova_ wrote:You understand Russian senators in Canada handing out bread is not comparable, yes? The context matters a whole lot. If it's American politicians handing out bread to the Dutch after the German occupation during WWII, it probably feels pretty frickin good that someone as powerful as the US is saying they support your sovereignty and independence (although I'm sure they would prefer it from American GIs over politicians). See how much context matters and why you can't simply overlay 'how would you feel, Canada'? To me, you sound like a western supremacist. You seem to think that the Americans are pure and wholesome, while the Russians are evil incarnate. This is a false dichotomy. It is a simplistic view of the world. Neither side is good or bad. They are just two sides opposed to each other. Even the Germans were not "pure evil" at the time of WW2, and neither were they "good" after the war ended. I know it must be hard, but maybe you can understand this concept in the context of Israel vs Palestine. "They" are different from "us", but only in a superficial manner. Everybody wants to feed their children, everybody wants to secure their surroundings. This concept extends to "nation states", and that is what Russia is doing at this moment. At great cost to itself (and its neighbour), but it seems to think it is necessary. It is not only a tragedy that it has to happen in this way, especially since it could have been prevented, but comes with a terrible risk. People don't think Russia is evil because of an overly simplistic view of the world. They think it's evil because of the war crimes. Russia started WW2 alongside the Nazis in order to expand the Russian empire and enslave Eastern Europe and the only thing that has changed since then is their vision for their colonies and the world they're building has gotten worse. If Russia could just act like a normal fucking country for a few years then people would let it go but it literally can't. It never broke out of the 19th century mindset and is desperately trying to cling onto an empire that has ceased to be relevant. And Europeans almost eradicated all natives in North America. Brutalized Africa and South East Asia. Your nation is one of the worst of all. It doesn't matter. It's no reason not to find a diplomatic solution. If Western nations can be allies with Saudi Arabia, then they can talk to Russia. And if the United States was presently engaged in a brutal conquest of Mexico due to spheres of influence you'd have a point. I'm not saying that the 19th century wasn't filled with shitty empires. I'm saying that Russia is the only place stuck there. Whataboutalltheother19thcenturyempires doesn't work when only Russia is still doing this shit today. Nobody else is playing this game anymore, just Russia, the country that has always been the slowest kid in the class. Everyone else has recognized that the lines on the map matter far less than the exchange of culture and goods.
US did engaged in a brutal conquest of Mexico already. Taking half of their land and setting up influence.
Why have to be presently?
Russia always stick with old-school gameplay so what? The fact that the US plays a somewhat more global, sophisticated game doesn't mean their game is anything less shitty for the victims.
The line of map is less important? You are joking right? No one exchange the line of map for culture and goods. Line of map is one of the most vital things that defines a country.
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United States41878 Posts
On November 23 2024 13:32 geod wrote:
Why have to be presently?
Because the claim is that the other 19th Century empires all grew out of their empire phase and started recognizing the value of coexistence but that Russia did not so you can't really disprove the claim with things that are from back then. If you're going to go "whatabout X, actually the US is just as bad as Russia is today" then you need shit that is happening today.
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On November 23 2024 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:
Has there been any word on how Europe is taking steps to increase their capability to defend themselves? Plans for artillery factories, increased budget, or any other such things?
I am not sure if this would even be information made public. So maybe its an invalid question. I know there's the whole "democracy takes time" thing, which is why I don't mean some factory being built as we speak. I just mean are they discussing it? Have any suggestions been made? I'm curious what steps Europe plans to take to ensure they are less reliant on the US.
Most countries have increased their military spending and are modernizing their forces. Also, this war has shown how unprepared EU was in terms of production so things like ammunition and artillery shell production have been ramped up. It's not a fast process but it's there and in case of an actual war it will be easier to ramp up further from this point onwards.
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Production & Manpower are the two things that -usually- win wars.
You can't fight modern shoulder launched Anti-Tank weapon with 60 year old tanks featuring cope-cages.
Russia is bitching as always.
- Iranian drones
- North Korean Shells, Guns, Troops
The west was collectively perplexed that russia needs to rely on even shittier shitholes to prop up their wargame.
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On November 23 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
Production & Manpower are the two things that -usually- win wars.
You can't fight modern shoulder launched Anti-Tank weapon with 60 year old tanks featuring cope-cages.
Russia is bitching as always.
- Iranian drones
- North Korean Shells, Guns, Troops
The west was collectively perplexed that russia needs to rely on even shittier shitholes to prop up their wargame.
Don't forget the Kadyrov guys, Wagner Group and all the other mercs they got from Africa, India, Nepal...
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For those pro-russian posters, russia is winning in this war, there is no need to get angry with any posters here, none of the TL forum user are going to change the situation in the battlefield in any meaningful way. It is ok to let the pro-ukraine poster to continue to believe that ukraine is winning.
As for european countries, I think the lack of (sufficient) material support to ukraine really signal that they are unwilling or unable to ramp up sufficiently to match the russian's effort. It would be either the west miscalculated/ mis-estimated the relative strength of their economic / industrial power, or they simply did not think losing the war in ukraine is a(n) (existential) threat to them.
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On November 23 2024 23:32 mounteast02 wrote:
For those pro-russian posters, russia is winning in this war, there is no need to get angry with any posters here, none of the TL forum user are going to change the situation in the battlefield in any meaningful way. It is ok to let the pro-ukraine poster to continue to believe that ukraine is winning.
As for european countries, I think the lack of (sufficient) material support to ukraine really signal that they are unwilling or unable to ramp up sufficiently to match the russian's effort. It would be either the west miscalculated/ mis-estimated the relative strength of their economic / industrial power, or they simply did not think losing the war in ukraine is a(n) (existential) threat to them.
Russia is winning, eh? What is their winning condition that they are currently achieving, you think? Because to me it looks like if the war ended today, and Russia got all the territories they are currently holding, they would still have lost in a number of very important ways: They managed to extend their borders with NATO by a long margin (With more to come), all of EU are mustering, they completely failed to capture Kyiv, they've taken 700000 casualties, lost the vast vast majority of their soviet arsenal, and have an economy that is currently absolutely tanking.. For what? 14% of Ukraine? You'd call that a victory..?
See, on my side, all Russia have managed to achieve is making themselves look like an absolute laughing stock. People used to believe this was the second biggest military nation in the world, and they've proudly shown the world they're actually completely inept. And none of that is going to change even if Ukraine capitulated tomorrow.
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They also lost their main export market.
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United States41878 Posts
On November 24 2024 01:34 maybenexttime wrote:
They also lost their main export market.
They'll just pivot to selling to China. It's no problem as long as China is willing to take delivery in Germany where the pipeline goes.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/QmbNFcg.jpeg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/91LIb6y.jpeg)
