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On August 27 2024 14:15 Excludos wrote:https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/08/26/7472003/Yesterday's attack cost Russia $1.26B in hardware. For that they got a temporary power outage that is already underway to get fixed. Truly a success like no one has ever seen before
They hit hydro-electric powerplant (last one that worked I think) and some other energy infastucture targets (along with residential buldings). Initial assesment clasified this attack as successful but indeed it was costly. Balistic/cruise missiles are not cheap.
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On August 27 2024 20:36 Silvanel wrote:They hit hydro-electric powerplant (last one that worked I think) and some other energy infastucture targets (along with residential buldings). Initial assesment clasified this attack as successful but indeed it was costly. Balistic/cruise missiles are not cheap.
I've been reading a few comments from people who live in Ukraine. There are outages, but they try to circle it around so everyone gets at least a few hours of power every day. For the everyday civilian, this is annoying, but they're used to it. It gets more difficult during winter, but both last winters went like this as well.
An interesting tidbit is that whilst power production have been hit, the infrastructure is doing fairly ok. This isn't by any means the first attack on the power infrastructure, and they've ended up doubling and tripling lines and nodes, so when one goes down it isn't actually all that impactful, and they can just run the other ones until it's fixed again.
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On August 27 2024 20:32 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2024 08:54 Manit0u wrote:Reportedly one of the drones exploded on the territory of Poland. Investigation is underway. On August 27 2024 08:44 Falling wrote:On August 27 2024 03:51 sertas wrote:
zeo was wrong about 65 "confirmed" hits, the stats are:
1/3 Kinzhal Kh-47M2 aeroballistic missiles
1/6 Iskander-M/KN-23 ballistic missiles
1/1 Kh-22 cruise missile
99/115 Kh-101/Kalibr/Kh-59/69 cruise missiles
99/109 Shahed drones“
This was a big attack, good shoot downs by ukraine imo, just bad at dealing with the ballistic missiles, maybe they got overwhelmed by the amount of stuff at the same time. Russia will need to wait until the end of the year to do another attack of this size. Hm. Maybe it's like those Palestinian rocket attacks in the last few years. Iron Dome gets good enough that firing by ones or twos is not so effective. So instead you stockpile and then overload the system all at once. It seems that their air defense did quite admirably. Iskander and Kinzhal are supersonic missiles which fly at mach 5-10 so they're very hard to intercept even if the system isn't overloaded. All of the slower moving projectiles got intercepted at pretty much 90% rate. I wonder if Polish air defense also helped there. For sure we had some air force planes flying around at the time (not a usual thing here). Our air-defence is not shooting at targets over Ukraine. And even not at targets that just staryed into our airspace.
Probably were NATO AWACS flying over Poland passing on intelligence and targeting information though if you'd count those.
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That may be, but Manit0u explicitly mentioned polish air defense, and we do not have oparational AWACS yet.
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On August 27 2024 23:00 Silvanel wrote:
That may be, but Manit0u explicitly mentioned polish air defense, and we do not have oparational AWACS yet.
I mean Poland is part of NATO and NATO definitely has AWACS in Poland, but that's why I said "if you'd count those".
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https://kyivindependent.com/f-16s-defense-russian-mass-attack/
Even more stats for yesterday's attack:
Ukraine downed 102 missiles and 99 drones of the 127 missiles and 109 drones launched by Russia during the morning attack.
An intercept rate of 80.3% and 90.8%. Apparently the F-16s played a large role in that, but we don't know any specifics.
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On August 27 2024 21:27 Excludos wrote:
I've been reading a few comments from people who live in Ukraine. There are outages, but they try to circle it around so everyone gets at least a few hours of power every day. For the everyday civilian, this is annoying, but they're used to it. It gets more difficult during winter, but both last winters went like this as well.
Yes, but that was when transmission rather then power plants was targeted.
This time the situation might be worse than few hours of daily outage.
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On August 28 2024 00:46 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2024 21:27 Excludos wrote:
I've been reading a few comments from people who live in Ukraine. There are outages, but they try to circle it around so everyone gets at least a few hours of power every day. For the everyday civilian, this is annoying, but they're used to it. It gets more difficult during winter, but both last winters went like this as well.
Yes, but that was when transmission rather then power plants was targeted. This time the situation might be worse than few hours of daily outage.
According to statements by President of the All-Ukrainian Energy Assembly Ivan Plachkov, although they are busy carrying out emergency repairs, they haven't been able to assess the total damages yet. It's a bit of an unknown how long it'll take to restore power back to normal, but they're expecting 1-2 weeks. Normally they're running scheduled circulating outages for a few hours a day, which is now up to 3/4 of the day after the attack, according to some comments. They were suppose to start a phase of "no scheduled outages" this week, but that obviously didn't go according to plan..
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On August 27 2024 23:00 Silvanel wrote:
That may be, but Manit0u explicitly mentioned polish air defense, and we do not have oparational AWACS yet.
There are AWACS flying near the border quite often (I think they're stationed somewhere around Rzeszów) but this time was different since they've scrambled fighter jets and even issued a warning about increased noise levels.
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On August 28 2024 01:03 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 00:46 pmp10 wrote:On August 27 2024 21:27 Excludos wrote:
I've been reading a few comments from people who live in Ukraine. There are outages, but they try to circle it around so everyone gets at least a few hours of power every day. For the everyday civilian, this is annoying, but they're used to it. It gets more difficult during winter, but both last winters went like this as well.
Yes, but that was when transmission rather then power plants was targeted. This time the situation might be worse than few hours of daily outage. According to statements by President of the All-Ukrainian Energy Assembly Ivan Plachkov, although they are busy carrying out emergency repairs, they haven't been able to assess the total damages yet. It's a bit of an unknown how long it'll take to restore power back to normal, but they're expecting 1-2 weeks. Normally they're running scheduled circulating outages for a few hours a day, which is now up to 3/4 of the day after the attack, according to some comments. They were suppose to start a phase of "no scheduled outages" this week, but that obviously didn't go according to plan..
I meant that this winter might be different as I'm sure they can manage summer and fall with limited power cuts.
There is no telling how much power production capacity Ukraine has already lost and Russian bombing campaign will likely only peak in December/January.
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On August 26 2024 23:15 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2024 21:09 zeo wrote:On August 26 2024 20:03 KwarK wrote:On August 26 2024 19:38 zeo wrote:On August 26 2024 18:47 WombaT wrote:On August 26 2024 18:35 zeo wrote:
What a morning. Seeing at least 65 confirmed direct hits all over Ukraine mostly aimed at the energy sector, shutdowns all over Ukraine.
Most seem to agree it is the largest amount of hits in one day since the start of the conflict, basically no air defence working. Seems like all those destroyed air defence systems werent decoys after all hmm.
edit: Also seems like today the entire settlement of Novgrodovka will come under Russian control in the Kransnoarmysk direction. Pre war population of 14 thousand with highrise buildings and it fell in days with minimal use of heavy equipment. Why do you sound almost gleeful at this development? Seems very neutral, not even compared to some of the comments here. The part where the obvious is stated regarding the air defence systems could be interpreted as my own opinion, sure. If any of you saw the F16s or the many patriot systems that havent been destroyed intercepting missiles please post them in the thread. On August 26 2024 18:52 Simberto wrote:On August 26 2024 18:47 WombaT wrote:On August 26 2024 18:35 zeo wrote:
What a morning. Seeing at least 65 confirmed direct hits all over Ukraine mostly aimed at the energy sector, shutdowns all over Ukraine.
Most seem to agree it is the largest amount of hits in one day since the start of the conflict, basically no air defence working. Seems like all those destroyed air defence systems werent decoys after all hmm.
edit: Also seems like today the entire settlement of Novgrodovka will come under Russian control in the Kransnoarmysk direction. Pre war population of 14 thousand with highrise buildings and it fell in days with minimal use of heavy equipment. Why do you sound almost gleeful at this development? zeo has been cheering on Russia from the beginning. He is salty that Nato stopped Serbia from genociding their neighbours in the 90s, so everybody who fights against Nato is always the good guy in his book. Im not a fan of violent regime change that lead to civil wars. Guilty as charged I guess They held elections after the Revolution of Dignity. Elections held after an unconstitutional and violent change of power by the people that banned the largest political parties in the country, persecuted large swaths of people opposed to them and banned all media that didnt comply is supposed to be an argument for what exactly in this context? You're under a barrage of questions here, but I would like to know more about that bolded part if you have a source?
In March of 2022 Zelensky used the powers under marshal law to ban 11 political parties ranging from center left to far left, under alligations that 'they were working against Ukraine'. Two of the parties had seats in Parliament at the time with the then banned Opposition Platform being the second largest political (and largest opposition) party in the country with 13% of the national vote in the last elections.
Basically the entire eurosceptic and neutral / anti-NATO voterbase that didnt boycott the elections in Ukraine were banned.
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-18/card/ukrainian-president-zelensky-moves-against-kremlin-linked-parties-xEDVi3gjGEOTnRomKV0m
At the same time he nationalized all news programs on every TV station with a national frequency and ordered their broadcasting of a state run and controlled telethon every day.
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Why is it surprising that when you are at war, you ban political parties that have monetary and political ties to the nation that just invaded you?
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On August 28 2024 15:39 Acrofales wrote:
Why is it surprising that when you are at war, you ban political parties that have monetary and political ties to the nation that just invaded you?
Cmon, in a real country they would fall from a window, or have a car accident.
Zeo, i know you just enjoy attempting your gotcha moments, but It would interesting to read your opinion about Russia, its presidente and all that.
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On August 28 2024 15:24 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2024 23:15 Elroi wrote:On August 26 2024 21:09 zeo wrote:On August 26 2024 20:03 KwarK wrote:On August 26 2024 19:38 zeo wrote:On August 26 2024 18:47 WombaT wrote:On August 26 2024 18:35 zeo wrote:
What a morning. Seeing at least 65 confirmed direct hits all over Ukraine mostly aimed at the energy sector, shutdowns all over Ukraine.
Most seem to agree it is the largest amount of hits in one day since the start of the conflict, basically no air defence working. Seems like all those destroyed air defence systems werent decoys after all hmm.
edit: Also seems like today the entire settlement of Novgrodovka will come under Russian control in the Kransnoarmysk direction. Pre war population of 14 thousand with highrise buildings and it fell in days with minimal use of heavy equipment. Why do you sound almost gleeful at this development? Seems very neutral, not even compared to some of the comments here. The part where the obvious is stated regarding the air defence systems could be interpreted as my own opinion, sure. If any of you saw the F16s or the many patriot systems that havent been destroyed intercepting missiles please post them in the thread. On August 26 2024 18:52 Simberto wrote:On August 26 2024 18:47 WombaT wrote:On August 26 2024 18:35 zeo wrote:
What a morning. Seeing at least 65 confirmed direct hits all over Ukraine mostly aimed at the energy sector, shutdowns all over Ukraine.
Most seem to agree it is the largest amount of hits in one day since the start of the conflict, basically no air defence working. Seems like all those destroyed air defence systems werent decoys after all hmm.
edit: Also seems like today the entire settlement of Novgrodovka will come under Russian control in the Kransnoarmysk direction. Pre war population of 14 thousand with highrise buildings and it fell in days with minimal use of heavy equipment. Why do you sound almost gleeful at this development? zeo has been cheering on Russia from the beginning. He is salty that Nato stopped Serbia from genociding their neighbours in the 90s, so everybody who fights against Nato is always the good guy in his book. Im not a fan of violent regime change that lead to civil wars. Guilty as charged I guess They held elections after the Revolution of Dignity. Elections held after an unconstitutional and violent change of power by the people that banned the largest political parties in the country, persecuted large swaths of people opposed to them and banned all media that didnt comply is supposed to be an argument for what exactly in this context? You're under a barrage of questions here, but I would like to know more about that bolded part if you have a source? In March of 2022 Zelensky used the powers under marshal law to ban 11 political parties ranging from center left to far left, under alligations that 'they were working against Ukraine'. Two of the parties had seats in Parliament at the time with the then banned Opposition Platform being the second largest political (and largest opposition) party in the country with 13% of the national vote in the last elections. Basically the entire eurosceptic and neutral / anti-NATO voterbase that didnt boycott the elections in Ukraine were banned. https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-18/card/ukrainian-president-zelensky-moves-against-kremlin-linked-parties-xEDVi3gjGEOTnRomKV0mAt the same time he nationalized all news programs on every TV station with a national frequency and ordered their broadcasting of a state run and controlled telethon every day.
That does absolutely not sound ideal. But the fact that this happened after the election and after the start of the war makes it a lot more understandable.
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On August 28 2024 15:39 Acrofales wrote:
Why is it surprising that when you are at war, you ban political parties that have monetary and political ties to the nation that just invaded you?
Alleged monetary and political ties of your main political opponents that have substantial support among the voting population. Then procede to close all sessions of Parliament to the public and threaten the remaining MPs of the party you banned with treason charges if they dont vote how you tell them to because your own party desolved into factions.
Dysfunction Sidelines Ukraine’s Parliament as Governing Force
With the president’s party split, the government relies on formerly pro-Russian lawmakers to help it pass legislation and, the opposition says, minimize scrutiny.
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Part of the problem is that Mr. Zelensky’s party, called Servant of the People, is itself hindered by turf wars and infighting.
Divisions that emerged before the invasion have only deepened. The unanimous votes that signaled solidarity early in the invasion are a faded memory. The war muddles party discipline; rogue voting is grudgingly tolerated.
In one example, about 20 members of Parliament have formed a faction opposed to Mr. Zelensky; 15 of them formally remain in the president’s party.
There are currently four parties represented in the 450-seat chamber: Mr. Zelensky’s Servant of the People, European Solidarity, Fatherland and Holos.
Servant of the People won a majority of seats in elections in 2019 that aligned Parliament with the presidency. It still holds a nominal majority of 235 seats but in fact the party’s leadership rarely musters the necessary votes to pass legislation. In the more than 5,000 votes in Parliament in 2022 and 2023, the party secured a majority by itself in only 17 instances, or less than 1 percent of votes, according to Chesno, a Ukrainian analytical group.
Instead, the party has formed a strange bedfellows political partnership with the remnants of a party called Opposition Bloc that was officially disbanded in 2022 for ties to Russia. Together they have passed legislation to expand the draft, critically important for Ukraine’s war effort, and to shape oversight of agencies and rules intended to safeguard foreign aid.
Critics of this alliance say it has weakened the independence of Parliament, because the former pro-Russian politicians are at risk of prosecution for treason and hardly able to provide effective oversight.
One bill, passed in December, regulates building codes for reconstruction work and drew criticism for including provisions favored by developers. That bill shifts some building approvals from local governments to the central government, raising concerns that communities will lack a voice in how rebuilding funds are spent.
Highly recommend reading the entire article
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Northern Ireland27363 Posts
The one zeo link I was actually gonna read and find it a legitimate wider point to investigate and it’s paywalled 
Ok not strictly speaking true, they post plenty of decent stuff
If there’s a nation that’s being actively invaded and facing a genuine existential threat that hasn’t, in some way clamped down on dissenting voices that may undermine their defensive efforts, I’ve yet to hear of it. I’d certainly be interested if some of my more learned fellows in here would have an example of a counterpoint.
Although one would have concerns if a state of martial law starts to see such a cessation of normality start to bleed through into areas that can’t reasonably be justified by simply being on a war footing.
If memory serves, and this is far from my strongest topic incidentally? were you not saying that pro-Russian Ukrainians had an unrepresentative voting presence because many effectively boycotted participating in the process?
There is, of course a marked difference between being unable to exercise your political rights, and voluntarily choosing not so.
Apologies in advance if my recollection is wrong and I’m misrepresenting your previous statements
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On August 28 2024 16:48 WombaT wrote:The one zeo link I was actually gonna read and find it a legitimate wider point to investigate and it’s paywalled Ok not strictly speaking true, they post plenty of decent stuff If there’s a nation that’s being actively invaded and facing a genuine existential threat that hasn’t, in some way clamped down on dissenting voices that may undermine their defensive efforts, I’ve yet to hear of it. I’d certainly be interested if some of my more learned fellows in here would have an example of a counterpoint. Although one would have concerns if a state of martial law starts to see such a cessation of normality start to bleed through into areas that can’t reasonably be justified by simply being on a war footing. If memory serves, and this is far from my strongest topic incidentally? were you not saying that pro-Russian Ukrainians had an unrepresentative voting presence because many effectively boycotted participating in the process? There is, of course a marked difference between being unable to exercise your political rights, and voluntarily choosing not so. Apologies in advance if my recollection is wrong and I’m misrepresenting your previous statements
Sorry, Im not quite sure what you thought I said? Turnout was always low after 2014 but those that went to vote in eastern ukraine voted for what could be considered pro-Russian as opposed to pro-EU political parties. Generally the further east - the more eurosceptic the population. Ill go into more detail some other time when Im not at work regarding political suppresion in east Ukraine after Maidan but the parties couldnt really be pro-Russian. They could only be neutral or for peace, sure they were filled with the old faces but it couldnt be their platform or you get a knock at the door. edit: think more along the lines of pro-Ukraine by being anti-NATO because it will lead to war with Russia
P.S. Post the link in a site like archive.is and it bypasses the paywall
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On August 28 2024 15:24 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2024 23:15 Elroi wrote:On August 26 2024 21:09 zeo wrote:On August 26 2024 20:03 KwarK wrote:On August 26 2024 19:38 zeo wrote:On August 26 2024 18:47 WombaT wrote:On August 26 2024 18:35 zeo wrote:
What a morning. Seeing at least 65 confirmed direct hits all over Ukraine mostly aimed at the energy sector, shutdowns all over Ukraine.
Most seem to agree it is the largest amount of hits in one day since the start of the conflict, basically no air defence working. Seems like all those destroyed air defence systems werent decoys after all hmm.
edit: Also seems like today the entire settlement of Novgrodovka will come under Russian control in the Kransnoarmysk direction. Pre war population of 14 thousand with highrise buildings and it fell in days with minimal use of heavy equipment. Why do you sound almost gleeful at this development? Seems very neutral, not even compared to some of the comments here. The part where the obvious is stated regarding the air defence systems could be interpreted as my own opinion, sure. If any of you saw the F16s or the many patriot systems that havent been destroyed intercepting missiles please post them in the thread. On August 26 2024 18:52 Simberto wrote:On August 26 2024 18:47 WombaT wrote:On August 26 2024 18:35 zeo wrote:
What a morning. Seeing at least 65 confirmed direct hits all over Ukraine mostly aimed at the energy sector, shutdowns all over Ukraine.
Most seem to agree it is the largest amount of hits in one day since the start of the conflict, basically no air defence working. Seems like all those destroyed air defence systems werent decoys after all hmm.
edit: Also seems like today the entire settlement of Novgrodovka will come under Russian control in the Kransnoarmysk direction. Pre war population of 14 thousand with highrise buildings and it fell in days with minimal use of heavy equipment. Why do you sound almost gleeful at this development? zeo has been cheering on Russia from the beginning. He is salty that Nato stopped Serbia from genociding their neighbours in the 90s, so everybody who fights against Nato is always the good guy in his book. Im not a fan of violent regime change that lead to civil wars. Guilty as charged I guess They held elections after the Revolution of Dignity. Elections held after an unconstitutional and violent change of power by the people that banned the largest political parties in the country, persecuted large swaths of people opposed to them and banned all media that didnt comply is supposed to be an argument for what exactly in this context? You're under a barrage of questions here, but I would like to know more about that bolded part if you have a source? In March of 2022 Zelensky used the powers under marshal law to ban 11 political parties ranging from center left to far left, under alligations that 'they were working against Ukraine'. Two of the parties had seats in Parliament at the time with the then banned Opposition Platform being the second largest political (and largest opposition) party in the country with 13% of the national vote in the last elections. Basically the entire eurosceptic and neutral / anti-NATO voterbase that didnt boycott the elections in Ukraine were banned. https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-18/card/ukrainian-president-zelensky-moves-against-kremlin-linked-parties-xEDVi3gjGEOTnRomKV0mAt the same time he nationalized all news programs on every TV station with a national frequency and ordered their broadcasting of a state run and controlled telethon every day. Russia invaded in February. Talking about March means Ukraine was already in an existential war with Russia, yes you take some dramatic steps when your in an existential war.
If you want this line to actually get anywhere and have even the slightest hope of trying to convince anyone of your viewpoint then you need to talk about pre-feb 2022. And probably pre 2014 since realistically Russian and Ukraine have been in conflict since Crimea.
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Not to go all "but what about..." on you, but I can't help but find the hilarity of not seeing the irony of attacking a nation for getting rid of political opponents connected to the country that just invaded you, when your own political figurehead regularly throws his political opponents out of windows.
These smoking guns you think you're finding genuinely belongs on The Onion at this point
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Finland965 Posts
On August 27 2024 20:29 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2024 20:03 hexhaven wrote:Reuters is reporting that officials in Belgorod say they've pushed back a Ukrainian attack. Some 500 Ukrainian fighters attacked two border checkpoints according to another source. Doesn't sound like a concentrated attack force, more like probing, if the sources are correct. That's a good old fashion Recon by force. Probing the enemy, seeing the response, and plan accordingly. And if you're really lucky, you get to do some damage, like the 300 initial attackers who broke into Kursk. But that is not the primary objective
I think there's been quite a few of these over the past two years, in various types and sizes. It's probably nothing much, but these now stand out a lot more since the Kursk operation started.
e: And I think there's a wider discussion there about how much reserves Ukraine actually has, and if it's feasible to pull off another Kursk operation.
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EPT
