EPTHere is some reading on the subject.
Still pretty dumb, but not as clear it as that tweet makes it seem.
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 44
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
Here is some reading on the subject. Still pretty dumb, but not as clear it as that tweet makes it seem. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26538 Posts
Just rather unfortunate timing wise | ||
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Vivax
22288 Posts
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1578836/ukraine-war-poland-hungary-eu-sanctions-viktor-orban-refugees-claire-fox The law that allows this type of sanction was enabled in February already, Poland and Hungary tried to veto it. I believe the MiG story can be classified as diplomatic incident when Kamala moved her person to Poland to discuss it, whatever that means. | ||
KwarK
United States43868 Posts
On March 11 2022 11:27 Vivax wrote: It’s not from a psyops facility or right wing twitter lol. Found a decent article on express.co.uk https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1578836/ukraine-war-poland-hungary-eu-sanctions-viktor-orban-refugees-claire-fox The law that allows this type of sanction was enabled in February already, Poland and Hungary tried to veto it. I believe the MiG story can be classified as diplomatic incident when Kamala moved her person to Poland to discuss it, whatever that means. Are you seriously posting the express as part of an argument that it isn’t right wing fake news? It’s a right wing tabloid, not journalism. You’re proving my point for me. | ||
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Vivax
22288 Posts
On March 11 2022 11:36 KwarK wrote: Are you seriously posting the express as part of an argument that it isn’t right wing fake news? It’s a right wing tabloid, not journalism. You’re proving my point for me. It’s on reuters too so I don’t know what you are on about. | ||
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KwarK
United States43868 Posts
On March 11 2022 11:42 Vivax wrote: It’s on reuters too so I don’t know what you are on about. I googled for a story on it at Reuters. Nothing from a vote today and not as “sanctions” as far as I could tell with keywords EU Poland Hungary sanctions on pages updated in the last 24 hours. That’s a mischaracterization specifically intended to link the sanctions being applied to Russia with the EU withholding funds to Poland to paint the EU as somehow failing to support Ukraine. Hence the whole “how come they sanction Poland when Poland Ukraine refugees conflict Russia rabble rabble rabble bloody EU bendy bananas”. Russian psyops. You’ve been conned. You need to exercise more skepticism in your online reading and you especially need to avoid anything written in the express. | ||
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Vivax
22288 Posts
The info is also on notesfrompoland, founded by a Cambridge university guy, if the about is correct. Sorry but I don’t think google is amateurish enough to let the Russians google bomb these search results at their leisure. Time will tell as there’s a bunch of stuff floating around that proves to be false 24-48 h later. I’d certainly hope the parliament didn’t do that. Peeps are already frothing at the mouth round here. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18258 Posts
On March 11 2022 12:00 Vivax wrote: Yeah it’s a resolution drafted in Feb, and passed yesterday/today by voting. The info is also on notesfrompoland, founded by a Cambridge university guy, if the about is correct. Sorry but I don’t think google is amateurish enough to let the Russians google bomb these search results at their leisure. Time will tell as there’s a bunch of stuff floating around that proves to be false 24-48 h later. I’d certainly hope the parliament didn’t do that. Peeps are already frothing at the mouth round here. Google is absolutely "amateurish" enough, or rather put differently, the country with the most sophisticated capacity for hybrid warfare is good enough to (temporarily) dupe Google. Especially for people with as dubious a history as you have for taking articles uncritically. Their ranking algorithms are good, but not perfect, and there are numerous ways to exploit them, often intentionally. Do you think companies spend millions on Search Engine Optimization because Google's ranking can't be duped into being more favorable to your advertising than it should be? And if companies can do it, why not Russia, with an impressive track record of promoting disinformation in the west. Now, about the content, people above already pointed out what actually happened. These aren't sanctions. They aren't even new. They also don't mean the EU won't be happy to separately fund help in Poland for the refugee crisis: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_22_1607 What actually happened was that another (rather minor) step was taken in the Rule of Law dispute between Poland and the EU, and separately, between Hungary and the EU. The timing and optics are quite bad, but really it's just bureaucracy grinding through the process. In this case, the EU Parliament urged the commission to an action they were already taking: withholding specific EU funds to these countries until they comply with the "Rule of Law" clauses of the various EU convention. In both cases it's about ignoring European Court orders ruling some actions unlawful. In both countries, the legal details are complex enough that I don't understand them, but basically it boils down to the executive branch meddling with the judicial branch to such an extent that the independence of the latter is undermined. The ECJ ruled this unlawful, and furthermore ruled in February that EU funding may be withheld until such time as Poland and Hungary comply with their previous court order. The vote yesterday was mostly a formality in the sense that the EU Parliament voted that the commission should continue to withhold the funding they were already withholding pending the outcome of the court case in February. It is entirely unrelated to migs, the refugee crisis or anything else to do with Ukraine. But it is no surprise spindoctors and troll farms are jumping on it to pump out over-hyped pieces to increase tensions within the EU. What is disappointing is to see them repeated here by people who aren't Zeo. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18258 Posts
I stumbled on two rather interesting pieces in the Guardian about the world's view on the war. Firstly, an aggregate about how the rest of the world views the conflict. Not particularly surprising for the most part, but in particular Africa and Latin America's tempered response is interesting: But criticism of western double standards has not been limited to state media outlets in Russian allies. An opinion article in the South African daily the Mail & Guardian called the conflict “soaked in contradictions”, criticising western media coverage and government responses that appeared to frame the war in Ukraine as worse than other conflicts outside Europe. “Even as we deplore the violence and the loss of life in Ukraine resulting from the Russian intervention … it is valuable to step back and look at how the rest of the world may perceive this conflict,” it said. “Fear of domination, potential enemies spur Russia’s invasion,” read a headline in the Guardian in Nigeria, reflecting widely held beliefs about perceived Nato expansionist aims in Europe being partially to blame. Yan Boechat, a Brazilian journalist who is reporting on the humanitarian crisis from Kyiv, scoffed at the “cynical, hypocritical” tears being shed by the US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, over victims of the Ukraine conflict, given the carnage his country’s military had caused in Iraq. “Under Obama, the US was just as cruel in Mosul as Putin. Nobody was left to mourn the dead. US planes killed them all,” Boechat tweeted, recalling how he had stumbled over body parts while reporting from the devastated Iraqi city six months after the war there. “Unfortunately, cruelty, barbarity and injustice aren’t unique to Putin and the Russians,” the Brazilian journalist concluded. “Victims are mourned depending on the aggressor. [But] they are all victims: civilians who are Ukrainian, Iraqi, Syrian, Afghan.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/a-necessary-war-reporting-on-the-ukraine-disagreement-outside-the-west Secondly, an opinion piece on the neutrality of the global south that ties into this, and how this indicates a general shift in geopolitics: But the map of sanctions suggests that the true rift is not between left and right, nor even between east and west. On the contrary, the map reveals a rift between north and south, between the nations that we call developed and those we call developing. And by revealing this tectonic shift, the map can tell us something important about geopolitics in the coming age of multipolarity. ... In the age of unipolarity – in the long 30-year holiday that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union – the nations of the world were given a rather simple choice: side with the United States, or stand alone. Some nations sought to band together in collective acts of resistance to this hegemonic power. But the consequences were all but inevitable: invasions, coups and extensive sanctions to isolate their economies from the world at large. As new powers generate new poles, however, the options available to US neighbor nations are no longer restricted to compliance and resistance. A third option emerges: neutrality. “Neutrality does not mean indifference,” says Pierre Sané. “Neutrality means continuously calling for the respect of international laws; neutrality means that our hearts still go to the victims of military invasions and arbitrary sanctions never imposed on Nato countries.” Back in the first cold war, neutrality had a name: non-alignment. As the United States clashed with China and the Soviet Union in the skies above Korea, Jawaharlal Nehru and Josip Broz Tito refused to take a side. “The people of Yugoslavia cannot accept the postulate that humanity today has only one choice – a choice between a domination of one or the other bloc,” Yugoslavia’s minister of foreign affairs, Edvard Kardelj, told the UN in 1950. “We believe that there exists another road.” The Non-Aligned Movement was born five years later, uniting more than 100 nations around the world around principles of non-interference and peaceful coexistence. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/10/russia-ukraine-west-global-south-sanctions-war These pieces tie into a general feeling I have gotten about how, regardless of the outcome of this war, the world has fundamentally shifted to one where it's likely a new cold war will once again cause global instability as Great Powers vie to draw nations into their sphere of influence by whatever means they can. | ||
zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
On March 11 2022 05:36 StasisField wrote: I watched an interesting video recently that broke down why Russia realistically cannot occup Ukraine. Basically, even if Russia defeats the Ukrainian government and occupies the country, they do not have the manpower or the economy necessary for a successful occupation of a country putting up minimal resistance, and Ukraine is putting up more than just minimal resistance. In a study conducted by the Rand Corporation, it was found that 20 soldiers per 1,000 people in a geographical region were needed to successfully occupy said region, and Russia's current troop to population ratio is nowhere near that. Also, Russia does not have enough troops in their armed forces to realistically get that number to 20, nor do they have a good enough economy to support an occupation. Here's the link for those interested: Russia doesn't have to. Their goal is destruction of the Ukrainian state, not occupation and nation-building. A fragmented failed state with several weak regional puppet regimes and continuous violence achieves that. Like I have said before, as long as no one else wins, Russia doesn't lose. At this point I think it is open whether the forces Russia has committed are sufficient to destruct the Ukrainian state. But if achieved, Russia has no need to occupy the whole country. | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7735 Posts
I personally often get a feeling that while PiS might not be actual russian agents trying to destabilize and isolate our country, a lot of things they do is just good news for Russia, who I'm sure would love if our country did a "Polexit". Yes, this term has already appeared in our media last year, and I don't think Poland leaving the EU for some asinine made up reason is impossible. | ||
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Xabaras
Croatia12 Posts
Don't understand much how radars and drones and interceptions of aircrafts work to fully understand the implications. It is worrying tho as it brings in question claims of "don't worry, NATO protects the skies for it's members". Link is an English one i found https://www.ibtimes.com/mysterious-drone-crashed-croatia-may-have-got-lost-over-ukraine-report-3433503 | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4748 Posts
On March 11 2022 17:17 PoulsenB wrote: A quick note on Poland - PiS has been steadily eroding democratic standards in our country since it took power a few years ago, first they made our constitutional tribunal into a subservient body full of yes-men, they they began trying to take over our judicual system (still in progress afaik). They are anti-EU, anti-lgbt and anti-choice, and under their rule groups like Ordo Iuris (which is a group of an anti-choice religious fundamentalists who are widely suspected of being funded by russia) gained a lot of influence. Poland has been under EU scrutiny because of all that for some time now. So these "sanctions" are nothing new, and I don't think have anything to do with the whole fighter jet debacle. I personally often get a feeling that while PiS might not be actual russian agents trying to destabilize and isolate our country, a lot of things they do is just good news for Russia, who I'm sure would love if our country did a "Polexit". Yes, this term has already appeared in our media last year, and I don't think Poland leaving the EU for some asinine made up reason is impossible. I concur. Our government isnt (at least most of it isnt) on Russian payroll. They are "usefull idiots" though on some of the issues. Majority of our conservative population is both "anti EU" and "anti Russia" but this is not a sane or usefull postion to have. We are not large enough to have totally independent foreign policy. Timing of the vote/sanctions is really unfortunate though. | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7735 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 11 2022 13:57 Acrofales wrote: And now for the post I actually wanted to make before getting derailed by a disinformation campaign. I stumbled on two rather interesting pieces in the Guardian about the world's view on the war. Firstly, an aggregate about how the rest of the world views the conflict. Not particularly surprising for the most part, but in particular Africa and Latin America's tempered response is interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/a-necessary-war-reporting-on-the-ukraine-disagreement-outside-the-west Secondly, an opinion piece on the neutrality of the global south that ties into this, and how this indicates a general shift in geopolitics: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/10/russia-ukraine-west-global-south-sanctions-war These pieces tie into a general feeling I have gotten about how, regardless of the outcome of this war, the world has fundamentally shifted to one where it's likely a new cold war will once again cause global instability as Great Powers vie to draw nations into their sphere of influence by whatever means they can. At least here in Brazil, I don't think the half-assed neutrality is a herald of a return of the non-aligned-movement, but more-so a consequence of Brazil (well, Bolsonaro) not having a long-term foreign policy. Foreign policy under Bolsonaro has been subservant to one thing only: playing to the home crowd. Recently, his trip to Russia right before the war was not meant to be part of some well-thought-out realignment towards Russia but was meant to be a 1) photo-opp in response to Lula's euro trip a few months earlier (Putin is the only major leader he hasn't truly pissed off) and 2) getting a deal on fertilizers for his agro supporters 3) getting a defence deal for his military supporters. Now, of course, he won't accept that he made a terrible decision, so now we'll have him, his government and the diplomatic corps each doing their thing, ocasionally in contradiction one of the other and we'll stumble through the crisis. If we had someone internationally charismatic like Lula was, then maybe some coherent neutrality could be executed and a non-alignment movement might find a grip. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
China has refused to supply Russian airlines with aircraft parts, an official at Russia's aviation authority was quoted by Russian news agencies as saying on Thursday, after Boeing and Airbus halted supply of components. Russia's aviation sector is being squeezed by Western sanctions over the invasion of Ukraine, with Russia's foreign ministry warning this week that the safety of Russian passenger flights was under threat. Agencies including Interfax quoted Valery Kudinov, a Rosaviatsia official responsible for maintaining airplane airworthiness, as saying that Russia would look for opportunities to source parts from countries including Turkey and India after a failed attempt to obtain them from China. He also said Russian companies were registering their planes, many of which had been registered abroad, in Russia after the U.S. and European Union sanctions on aviation and that he expects some others to be returned to leasing companies. Separately, a draft law published on Thursday showed the Russian government plans to order domestic airlines to pay for leased aircraft in roubles and could bar them from returning planes to foreign companies if leases are cancelled. Source | ||
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Netto.
Poland523 Posts
On March 11 2022 17:17 PoulsenB wrote: A quick note on Poland - PiS has been steadily eroding democratic standards in our country since it took power a few years ago, first they made our constitutional tribunal into a subservient body full of yes-men, they they began trying to take over our judicual system (still in progress afaik). They are anti-EU, anti-lgbt and anti-choice, and under their rule groups like Ordo Iuris (which is a group of an anti-choice religious fundamentalists who are widely suspected of being funded by russia) gained a lot of influence. Poland has been under EU scrutiny because of all that for some time now. So these "sanctions" are nothing new, and I don't think have anything to do with the whole fighter jet debacle. I personally often get a feeling that while PiS might not be actual russian agents trying to destabilize and isolate our country, a lot of things they do is just good news for Russia, who I'm sure would love if our country did a "Polexit". Yes, this term has already appeared in our media last year, and I don't think Poland leaving the EU for some asinine made up reason is impossible. I hope people here will understand that it is only your opininon and won't make any conclusions about our country as a whole based just on this post. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4748 Posts
War is a sole most important topic of every discussion here right now, people either are discussing frontline develpments or talking about helping the refugeees. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
The CCP has only ever worked to advance its own benefit. There doesn't seem to be any benefit to them getting involved in Russia's mess in the West. They have their own interests to worry about and they have a lot of recent tensions with Russia's only other supporter: India to worry about already. Russia really is on their own on this one. If Belarus isn't going to directly help them there's no reason to think anyone else will. Belarus' regime has a vested interest in seeing Ukraine return to being Russian friendly. They're still not willing to commit soldiers or serve as anything other than a staging area for Russian troop movements. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On March 11 2022 23:12 Netto. wrote: I hope people here will understand that it is only your opininon and won't make any conclusions about our country as a whole based just on this post. This is so far the only opinion expressed (and twice supported). Would you enrich the discourse by giving an additional opinion? That'd be very much appreciated. | ||
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