Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 242

On September 26 2022 21:28 Artesimo wrote:

So you are admitting that you are actually lying? Because apparently you are the opinion that he is not lying, but is propagating false information (lies from someone else), yet you accuse him of lying. Finally the mask comes off.

Being an ass in the name of good does not make you less of an ass. If someone is lying(hint: that means knowingly and deliberately spreading false information) you are free to call it out, when someone is wrong you are free to correct them without false accusations. Nowhere did I say you should just accept it silently, all I ask is stop relying on accusations and being a cancer to any discourse in this thread. That way you might actually get taken seriously by them and can manage to change their mind.

On September 26 2022 21:42 Ghanburighan wrote:


Le sigh. First, how about you watch your language? Or prove that I have uttered lies, that I'm an ass and that I'm cancer to any discourse. How is that not just attempting to silence me, huh?

Secondly, I was replying to your post towards maybenexttime. There, as far as I see, he was spreading Kremlin's lies. But I wasn't here for that discussion. In the "gunpoint" view, he was spreading his own lies about voting not being at gunpoint. He had evidence for a case of it not being at gunpoint, but he was undermining the general claim. And "I didn't know" should be quickly followed by an admission that his post was wrong and preferably an edit of the original post.

Remind me again, what kind of valuable nuance does Ardias add to this discussion? Should we heed his arguments for why these elections aren't that bad and endorse the referenda? Let those regions be annexed? Is that the valuable nuance?

Also, what were you lying about it not being at gunpoint again?

On September 26 2022 21:28 maybenexttime wrote:

He claimed that an aggressive pro-Ukrainian crowd murdered innocent, peaceful pro-Russian protesters trapping them in a building and setting it on fire, and that people were stopped from helping them. I showed footage of the pro-Russian protesters firing live rounds from the rooftop and throwing molotovs from the building (and some pro-Ukrainians throwing theirs at the building). The footage also showed many pro-Ukrainian protesters helping people escape, with no one obstructing them. I also linked to investigations proving that the fire started in several places, including some that only the pro-Russian side had access to.

In other words, the pro-Russian side was not peaceful, the people were not trapped by the pro-Ukrainian side but by the fire, and nobody was stopping anyone from escaping, on the contrary - the pro-Ukrainian crowd was actively helping people escape.

There is tons of evidence supporting the official account of the events and zero evidence supporting the Kremlin narrative shared by Ardias. So forgive me if after that I assume he's more likely to post in bad faith.

White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan on Sunday said the U.S. has had private, high-level talks with leaders in Moscow about Russian President Vladimir Putin’s threat to use nuclear weapons amid the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, explaining the Biden administration is trying to prevent a “rhetorical tit for tat” between the two countries.

“If Russia crosses this line, there will be catastrophic consequences for Russia. The United States will respond decisively,” Sullivan said in an interview with moderator Chuck Todd on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”

“Now, in private channels we have spelled out in greater detail exactly what that would mean, but we want to be able to have the credibility of speaking directly to senior leadership in Russia and laying out for them what the consequences would be without getting into a rhetorical tit for tat publicly,” Sullivan said.

Putin last week threatened the use of nuclear weapons, further heightening growing concerns about their potential use in the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Sullivan on Sunday said the U.S. has been in contact with senior Russian officials “frequently” over the last few months, and as recently as in the last few days — despite worries since the start of the war that the U.S. was struggling to get in touch with Moscow.

The top White House national security aide said administration officials have been “careful to protect the timing and the content” of conversations with the Kremlin.

“We have not wanted to indicate exactly what those channels look like because we want to be able to protect them so that we have the continuing ability to reach Russia and tell them in no uncertain terms, for example, what the consequences would be, and they would be catastrophic if Russia went down the dark road of nuclear weapons use,” Sullivan said.

On September 26 2022 22:11 maybenexttime wrote:

I only bring this up when questioned about why I assume bad faith when you post your pro-Kremlin takes. I also don't have the time to read the article you sent me or, more importantly, verify every detail mentioned there. The Russian side has zero credibility, considering all the lies it constantly spreads (numerous bogus theories regarding MH17, numerous assassinations by the Kremlin, false flags in Ukraine, and so on). Especially an article from a propaganda website affiliated with Igor Strelkov... The article is besides the point. I provided footage that directly contradicted your claims and you decided to stick with your claims.

For those interested, here's the article in question:

http://novorossia.pro/25yanvarya/1859-evgeniy-norin-odessa-2-maya-2014-kak-eto-bylo.html

On September 26 2022 22:27 SC-Shield wrote:
Also, I'd like to use this opportunity to say that Macron is beyond any hope. He thinks this Russian invasion is because of resentment towards Russia? No, it's because Putin grew increasingly frustrated with Euromaidan in Ukraine. Don't forget Crimea happened right after that.

On September 26 2022 22:27 SC-Shield wrote:


This website screams of imperialism even simply due to its own name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya
And.. what a surprise, it looks like occupied territories by Russia. I wouldn't spend even 5 minutes reading it too.

From Wikipedia:
+ Show Spoiler +

Also, I'd like to use this opportunity to say that Macron is beyond any hope. He thinks this Russian invasion is because of resentment towards Russia? No, it's because Putin grew increasingly frustrated with Euromaidan in Ukraine. Don't forget Crimea happened right after that.

On September 26 2022 22:49 Gorsameth wrote:
Even if Ukraine wanted to stop leasing Russia its Black sea naval base, if Russia said 'no' there was not a god damn thing Ukraine was going to do about it.

The concept that they 'needed' to invade Crimea for it is ludicrous.

On September 26 2022 22:49 Gorsameth wrote:
Even if Ukraine wanted to stop leasing Russia its Black sea naval base, if Russia said 'no' there was not a god damn thing Ukraine was going to do about it.

The concept that they 'needed' to invade Crimea for it is ludicrous.

On September 26 2022 22:50 Ardias wrote:

Site itself - yes, that's why I didn't want to post it in the thread, but thinking that maybenexttime is geniuinely interested in reading other side perspective, I PM'ed it to him. Didn't think that he'll post it in the thread.
The reason why I gave this particular link though is that the site where it was posted originally (Sputnik I Pogrom, site of a Russian nationalist Egor Prosvirnin) was blocked... by the Russian government, and Prosvirnin himself, who was a very much vocal supporter of LDPR, fell off the window being drugged few months before the war. Makes you think about what the Kremlin agenda is in all this.
Regarding the article itself - Evgeniy Norin, however, despite being pro-Russian, is an author who gives a lot of attention to details, and article itself is trying to dissect the events of 02.05.2014 in Odessa by the minute. If anything it's useful to check how the events and perception of those in different sources are lining up.

It was leased for 25 years in 1992. So the end term was 2017. Ukraine could simply deny the prolongation (it was their right to do so) and demand Russian Black Sea Fleet and other forces to be removed from Crimea as they would now be stationed in the foreign land territory.

On September 26 2022 22:58 Gorsameth wrote:
And if Russia said 'no, we are not leaving' there is absolutely no one that would have forced them.

Remember, in this case we are talking about a pre "lol can't even beat Ukraine" Russia. Before this humiliating self inflicted defeat absolutely no one was interested in trying to pick a fight with them.

The Foreign Secretary has today (26 September) announced 92 sanctions in response to the Russian regime imposing sham referendums in four regions of Ukraine – a clear violation of international law, including the UN charter.

The Russian regime has organised these sham referendums in a desperate attempt to grab land and justify their illegal war. The process reflects their approach in Crimea in 2014, combining disinformation, intimidation, and fake results. These referendums do not represent the demonstrated will of the Ukrainian people and are a severe violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and political independence.

The Foreign Secretary James Cleverly said:

Sham referendums held at the barrel of a gun cannot be free or fair and we will never recognise their results. They follow a clear pattern of violence, intimidation, torture, and forced deportations in the areas of Ukraine Russia has seized.

Today’s sanctions will target those behind these sham votes, as well as the individuals that continue to prop up the Russian regime’s war of aggression. We stand with the Ukrainian people and our support will continue as long as it takes to restore their sovereignty.

In order to implement these fake referendums, the Russian regime has deployed officials and collaborators to each of the these temporarily controlled regions - 33 of these individuals are being sanctioned today.

Source and more details

On September 26 2022 19:02 Ardias wrote:

Answering your question - yes, I know that referendums will end in Russia's favour. The question of would there be a need to rig them a lot - in Kherson and Zaporozhie - I guess yes, in LPR/DPR - not so sure. I know all of you guys believe that every person currently living in Donetsk, Lugansk or Sevastopol (or even Kherson, though of course pro-Ukrainian sentiment is still strong there) are eagerly willing to go back to Ukraine, but according to the people whom I personally know and who live there - that's not exactly the case. You may not believe me, or you may consider them brainwashed by Kremlin propaganda, that's up to you.