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Northern Ireland23758 Posts
On February 12 2025 02:32 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:14 Billyboy wrote:On February 12 2025 02:01 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:55 Billyboy wrote:On February 11 2025 22:52 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2025 10:13 Mohdoo wrote:On February 11 2025 09:01 stilt wrote:On February 10 2025 22:47 Billyboy wrote:On February 10 2025 21:16 stilt wrote:On February 10 2025 10:27 Billyboy wrote:
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Where and when did I justify Israel's actions and which ones? If Israel was communist and the surrounding countries were all fascists determined to kill every citizen, power dynamics are the same. How do you suggest Israel reacts? So not only you don't understand what I am writing but you don't get either what you're implying with this analogy, amazing. Thank you for admitting it was your assumption you are treating as fact. The big problem (and you are far from the only one) is we never get anywhere because people are assuming a questions means this, and generally as awful a thing as we can think of if that person is not on your team. The opposite when they are on your team, the assumption is agreeing on everything, which is also incorrect. If I ask you if your favorite colour is green, that just means I'm curious if green is your favorite colour, end stop. It doesn't mean my favorite colour is green, or red. It could be any number of colours. I'm asking to find out not to trick, and then I'll ask different questions depending on the answer because I'm curious. Then why were you curious ? You're acting as if your question was asked in a vaccum. If that's really the case, you were off topic. But no, you did ask on a thread about palestine-israel a question on how should react a communist country surrounded by fascist enemies. While israel's justification for their action has been always about security concerns. You deliberately use their exact argument with your analogy, it's not a bad assumption on my part, you're being dishonnest by ignoring the context in which it is asked. I think the detail you are missing is: Once this geographic situation is created, the results naturally lead from it. Its honestly very similar to the momentum of the conflict itself. A lot of the diplomatic issues between Israelis and Palestinians right now just comes down to not trusting each other. Because neither of them think they can trust the other, they are totally unwilling to make any actual vulnerability-inducing concessions. "How can Palestinians trust Israel after the last 80 years? Of course they will never accept Israel's existence. They have nothing to lose" also means Israelis can never trust Palestinians. If I knew someone thought I was 100% going to try to kill them, it would mean I could not trust that person, even if I had zero plans to kill them. They would try to kill me to prevent me from killing them. If October 7 meant Israel can never trust Gaza, and then Israel's response to Gaza meant Palestinians can never trust Israel, where does that even go? The sad reality of the conflict is that it is self-sustaining. It has so much momentum it can never feasibly end unless one of them leaves. The problem here is that once your friends are successful and they get Palestinians to leave, die or live as second class citizens, they're not going to, you know, stop there. They'll still be surrounded by subhuman Arabs who don't deserve to live, and they'll still be ruled by far right fascists who require war and insecurity in order to be legitimate as rulers. So what will happen then is that they'll try and get some of Lebanon, or some of Jordan, or some of Syria, or some of Egypt. Nothing is fixed. This anti-Semitic trope really needs to stop being posted here. Thank you to Kwark for putting it down so quickly. Very disappointing to see it again. No the Jews are not going to slowly take over the world if they are not stopped in Gaza, no matter what octopus drawing you have seen. Of course you are fully aware that I don't think the reason why Israel would be doing that is because they're Jewish, you're only pretending to believe that because you like to attack me and you don't care about slander. And of course because I'm making sense, you can't attack me for what I'm saying, you have to make things up. As you know, there are many Jews in Europe and America, and even some in Israel, who oppose what Israel is doing, and I consider them my friends and allies. It is extremely antisemitic to think that what we're talking about is a trait that is inherent to Jews and/or jewishness, so you would be a massive antisemite if you believed that. But clearly you don't. No I fully believe that is what you tell yourself and what your bubble tells you. Scary to watch someone get radicalized. All the people you speak about in the second paragraph are not repeating antisemtic tropes. I have a different theory, I don't think you're scared at all, I think you're a little angry because nobody answered your recent attempts at baiting the forum into bad discussions ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ). You finally got a few people to answer you with "whAt if IsrAel waS coMmuNisT???", but clearly that wasn't enough because nobody reacted to your subsequent insults. Since you're not getting enough attention, you're lashing out, much like a small child would. And lashing out against me or GH by lying about what we believe is an old classic for you because as we know, you're JimmiC and you've been doing that for a decade at this point.
So anyway, how’s the weather over where you are?
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On February 12 2025 02:34 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
If people are able to pretend that pointing out what Israel is doing is antisemitic then surely that tells you something fundamental about what Israel is doing. Israel is taking over the middle east? Isn't Islamic extremism spreading far faster than radicalized Jews? If Israel is hell bent on killing all the Arabs why are their over 2 million living in Israel and doing better than most Arabs the rest of the world? When Neb talks about the bad Israelis off to conquer does he mean them too? Is it not far more likely that Israel attacked Gaza because of Oct 7th, then some grand plan to take over the middle east? Plenty of people including you and even me have criticized Israel without using anti-Semitic tropes. It is super easy to do.
I agree with Neb as far as he is talking about specific strategy right now and I reckon when you look at it in a balanced way Israel is extremely likely to want to be aggressive right now. Netenyahu can't afford to let up. There really isn't much of a Gaza left to attack so going north is pretty likely.
I don't know if I'd go as far as Neb on the future of Israel. I think as long as Netenyahu is there the aggression will continue, not because of a plan to take over the middle east, but because a state of war will always be beneficial to Netenyahu.
Ethnically cleansing an already broken, imprisoned, economically deprived Gaza is one thing, doing it to Egypt is just a thing that can't happen. I think they are going to fight in Lebanon and escalate things there whenever they feel they can benefit from doing so, but that is a decades long operation on its own, and hopefully their government will be replaced with a more reasonable one at some point during that.
That is, unless Trump really gets America much more heavily involved, which I doubt he will. That's the wildcard here that could change things for the worse. I just don't think Trump will see the profit in engaging the US in an actual war in Lebanon.
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On February 12 2025 02:45 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:37 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 02:16 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. To what extent do you think Israel would continue to expand? Are you saying this is all specific to Arab nations, or do you think Israel has similar ambitions to the big 3? I want to better understand the disconnect between our assumptions. Do you mean within a realistic framework? There's no shot that Israel would be in a position to claim land that doesn't belong to an Arab nation in the foreseeable future unless many other things about the world have changed. I suppose within reasonable framework? I suppose all nations would prefer to control the whole planet if they had a magic wand? If nothing else, may as well for their own safety? I’m just trying to have a conversation about what we think Israel’s actual goals are. You are saying Israel will just ethnically cleanse other nations after Palestinians are gone. I am asking for more specifics because I don’t understand why you think that. I explained they don’t seem to have any plans to do that with Egypt or Jordan. Are you saying you think Lebanon and Syria will be ethnically cleansed? Or just that Israel would ethnically cleanse them if they had a magic wand? Since we often have wildly different impressions of specific situations, I am trying to learn more about how you think to better understand why we seem to have such different predictions so often. We’ve both agreed Israel would leap at an opportunity to remove all Palestinians if they had a chance to do so. So we can agree sometimes. But with regards to Egypt and Jordan, it seems like we are operating with very different assumptions. So that’s why I’m asking for you to explain those to me. It’s of course up to you, but I’m just continuing the conversation. I’m not trying to spin you into some kinda gotcha. I just don’t understand.
I don't believe that controlling the whole planet makes you safer, if anything I believe the exact opposite. If you don't rule over others against their will, they have less reason to hate you. Also you're not "controlling" these lands, are you, you're taking them. It's not that Palestinians are becoming your subjects, they're erased from the picture. Bit different.
I already explained why I believe this: because it is in line with fascist ideology, and in line with the rhetoric of Israel. Israel isn't saying: "We have a small problem to deal with in Palestine and then we'll live in harmony", Israel is saying "We are surrounded by evil antisemitic human animals and we need to defend ourselves". If Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing about that sentence has changed, so it would be weird and illogical for Israel to stop everything at that point. Didn't you like that explanation? You quoted me saying all of this.
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On February 12 2025 02:32 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:14 Billyboy wrote:On February 12 2025 02:01 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:55 Billyboy wrote:On February 11 2025 22:52 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2025 10:13 Mohdoo wrote:On February 11 2025 09:01 stilt wrote:On February 10 2025 22:47 Billyboy wrote:On February 10 2025 21:16 stilt wrote:On February 10 2025 10:27 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Where and when did I justify Israel's actions and which ones? If Israel was communist and the surrounding countries were all fascists determined to kill every citizen, power dynamics are the same. How do you suggest Israel reacts? So not only you don't understand what I am writing but you don't get either what you're implying with this analogy, amazing. Thank you for admitting it was your assumption you are treating as fact. The big problem (and you are far from the only one) is we never get anywhere because people are assuming a questions means this, and generally as awful a thing as we can think of if that person is not on your team. The opposite when they are on your team, the assumption is agreeing on everything, which is also incorrect. If I ask you if your favorite colour is green, that just means I'm curious if green is your favorite colour, end stop. It doesn't mean my favorite colour is green, or red. It could be any number of colours. I'm asking to find out not to trick, and then I'll ask different questions depending on the answer because I'm curious. Then why were you curious ? You're acting as if your question was asked in a vaccum. If that's really the case, you were off topic. But no, you did ask on a thread about palestine-israel a question on how should react a communist country surrounded by fascist enemies. While israel's justification for their action has been always about security concerns. You deliberately use their exact argument with your analogy, it's not a bad assumption on my part, you're being dishonnest by ignoring the context in which it is asked. I think the detail you are missing is: Once this geographic situation is created, the results naturally lead from it. Its honestly very similar to the momentum of the conflict itself. A lot of the diplomatic issues between Israelis and Palestinians right now just comes down to not trusting each other. Because neither of them think they can trust the other, they are totally unwilling to make any actual vulnerability-inducing concessions. "How can Palestinians trust Israel after the last 80 years? Of course they will never accept Israel's existence. They have nothing to lose" also means Israelis can never trust Palestinians. If I knew someone thought I was 100% going to try to kill them, it would mean I could not trust that person, even if I had zero plans to kill them. They would try to kill me to prevent me from killing them. If October 7 meant Israel can never trust Gaza, and then Israel's response to Gaza meant Palestinians can never trust Israel, where does that even go? The sad reality of the conflict is that it is self-sustaining. It has so much momentum it can never feasibly end unless one of them leaves. The problem here is that once your friends are successful and they get Palestinians to leave, die or live as second class citizens, they're not going to, you know, stop there. They'll still be surrounded by subhuman Arabs who don't deserve to live, and they'll still be ruled by far right fascists who require war and insecurity in order to be legitimate as rulers. So what will happen then is that they'll try and get some of Lebanon, or some of Jordan, or some of Syria, or some of Egypt. Nothing is fixed. This anti-Semitic trope really needs to stop being posted here. Thank you to Kwark for putting it down so quickly. Very disappointing to see it again. No the Jews are not going to slowly take over the world if they are not stopped in Gaza, no matter what octopus drawing you have seen. Of course you are fully aware that I don't think the reason why Israel would be doing that is because they're Jewish, you're only pretending to believe that because you like to attack me and you don't care about slander. And of course because I'm making sense, you can't attack me for what I'm saying, you have to make things up. As you know, there are many Jews in Europe and America, and even some in Israel, who oppose what Israel is doing, and I consider them my friends and allies. It is extremely antisemitic to think that what we're talking about is a trait that is inherent to Jews and/or jewishness, so you would be a massive antisemite if you believed that. But clearly you don't. No I fully believe that is what you tell yourself and what your bubble tells you. Scary to watch someone get radicalized. All the people you speak about in the second paragraph are not repeating antisemtic tropes. I have a different theory, I don't think you're scared at all, I think you're a little angry because nobody answered your recent attempts at baiting the forum into bad discussions ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ). You finally got a few people to answer you with "whAt if IsrAel waS coMmuNisT???", but clearly that wasn't enough because nobody reacted to your subsequent insults. Since you're not getting enough attention, you're lashing out, much like a small child would. And lashing out against me or GH by lying about what we believe is an old classic for you because as we know, you're JimmiC and you've been doing that for a decade at this point. This one pretty much sums it up. I find this whole thing surreal at this point.
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On February 12 2025 02:47 Billyboy wrote:
What percentage of Israeli's do you think want to kill all the "sub human" Arabs? What % of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis do think want to kill all the Jews? Why is one a major problem that needs to be stopped before it takes over the world and the others the good guys?
A high percentage in all of those cases. I have never said nor do I believe that Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are good guys, you just made that up because you're lashing out and you don't care that you are dishonest. I care about stopping Israel more because Israel is responsible for more deaths (in all likelihood, several hundreds of thousands in the last year), is doing it with our support as the West, and by its actions is creating more support for these other groups.
On February 12 2025 02:47 Billyboy wrote:
Edit: that was not a good faith answer, it was not an answer so I just stopped.
No it was a good faith answer, that's what I genuinely believe a communist nation should do if it was surrounded by fascist nations, lol. What do you think I believe it should do, if not that? Surrender? I believe in antifascism, I think violence against fascists is justified, I'll never waver from that.
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On February 12 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:45 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 02:37 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 02:16 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. To what extent do you think Israel would continue to expand? Are you saying this is all specific to Arab nations, or do you think Israel has similar ambitions to the big 3? I want to better understand the disconnect between our assumptions. Do you mean within a realistic framework? There's no shot that Israel would be in a position to claim land that doesn't belong to an Arab nation in the foreseeable future unless many other things about the world have changed. I suppose within reasonable framework? I suppose all nations would prefer to control the whole planet if they had a magic wand? If nothing else, may as well for their own safety? I’m just trying to have a conversation about what we think Israel’s actual goals are. You are saying Israel will just ethnically cleanse other nations after Palestinians are gone. I am asking for more specifics because I don’t understand why you think that. I explained they don’t seem to have any plans to do that with Egypt or Jordan. Are you saying you think Lebanon and Syria will be ethnically cleansed? Or just that Israel would ethnically cleanse them if they had a magic wand? Since we often have wildly different impressions of specific situations, I am trying to learn more about how you think to better understand why we seem to have such different predictions so often. We’ve both agreed Israel would leap at an opportunity to remove all Palestinians if they had a chance to do so. So we can agree sometimes. But with regards to Egypt and Jordan, it seems like we are operating with very different assumptions. So that’s why I’m asking for you to explain those to me. It’s of course up to you, but I’m just continuing the conversation. I’m not trying to spin you into some kinda gotcha. I just don’t understand. I don't believe that controlling the whole planet makes you safer, if anything I believe the exact opposite. If you don't rule over others against their will, they have less reason to hate you. Also you're not "controlling" these lands, are you, you're taking them. It's not that Palestinians are becoming your subjects, they're erased from the picture. Bit different. I already explained why I believe this: because it is in line with fascist ideology, and in line with the rhetoric of Israel. Israel isn't saying: "We have a small problem to deal with in Palestine and then we'll live in harmony", Israel is saying "We are surrounded by evil antisemitic human animals and we need to defend ourselves". If Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing about that sentence has changed, so it would be weird and illogical for Israel to stop everything at that point. Didn't you like that explanation? You quoted me saying all of this.
When Israel said they are surrounded by antisemitic governments/groups, I don't think they were including Egypt and Jordan in that. They've had good relations with both for a long time and I really just don't see any evidence of what you are saying. I agree they had those fears of Lebanon and Syria, but those situations had rapidly changed.
Do you see why I am pointing to Egypt and Jordan as evidence they are fine with coexisting so long as they do not pose a risk? For example, Israel is not continuing to blast through Syria to their full capability, despite being severely weakened. Same with Lebanon. They were blasting both Syria and Lebanon a whole lot recently despite being stronger than Gaza. So it doesn't look like they just focus on the weakest Arab group.
To be direct: I think Israel is just extremely intolerant of even mild military risk. They will completely wipe out any risk much more quickly than other nations. If the risk is small, they still focus on eliminating that risk until its gone. I think they label Egypt and Jordan as zero risk and they have no plans to invade either one. I think Israel will try to destroy Yemen, Iran, and Iraq, if things remain as they are. But I don't think they will try to destroy Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey because all of those countries can be considered zero threat for either military or diplomatic reasons.
I think Israel gives the impression of being genocide-driven maniacs because they are comfortable being very cruel while they eliminate small risks. But I think history paints a clear picture that Israel prefers to not engage in conflict so long as they are not letting risks fester. But if they perceive even a small risk, F35s are in the air bombing the shit out of whatever that small risk is.
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On February 12 2025 02:51 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:34 Billyboy wrote:On February 12 2025 02:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
If people are able to pretend that pointing out what Israel is doing is antisemitic then surely that tells you something fundamental about what Israel is doing. Israel is taking over the middle east? Isn't Islamic extremism spreading far faster than radicalized Jews? If Israel is hell bent on killing all the Arabs why are their over 2 million living in Israel and doing better than most Arabs the rest of the world? When Neb talks about the bad Israelis off to conquer does he mean them too? Is it not far more likely that Israel attacked Gaza because of Oct 7th, then some grand plan to take over the middle east? Plenty of people including you and even me have criticized Israel without using anti-Semitic tropes. It is super easy to do. I agree with Neb as far as he is talking about specific strategy right now and I reckon when you look at it in a balanced way Israel is extremely likely to want to be aggressive right now. Netenyahu can't afford to let up. There really isn't much of a Gaza left to attack so going north is pretty likely. I don't know if I'd go as far as Neb on the future of Israel. I think as long as Netenyahu is there the aggression will continue, not because of a plan to take over the middle east, but because a state of war will always be beneficial to Netenyahu. Ethnically cleansing an already broken, imprisoned, economically deprived Gaza is one thing, doing it to Egypt is just a thing that can't happen. I think they are going to fight in Lebanon and escalate things there whenever they feel they can benefit from doing so, but that is a decades long operation on its own, and hopefully their government will be replaced with a more reasonable one at some point during that. That is, unless Trump really gets America much more heavily involved, which I doubt he will. That's the wildcard here that could change things for the worse. I just don't think Trump will see the profit in engaging the US in an actual war in Lebanon.
A well articulated post that contains no anti-Semtic tropes, like I said it is very easy to do.
The IDF could look to go north but I think their more likely to continue with assassinations of high level targets as well as operations like the cell phones. They have shown they will attack the Iranian proxxies but I also really doubt they would do more than that.
The next elections are going to be extremely important, sadly the left in Israel has been destroyed. And it is not just Oct 7th, it is that leftists around the world have, well been like the ones on here or worse. Centrists maybe have a shot but it will take quite the person to unite enough of the parties to form a government. It would be nice to see Netanyahu pay for his crimes, even the ones before oct 7th but that seems unlikely.
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On February 12 2025 02:59 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:47 Billyboy wrote:
What percentage of Israeli's do you think want to kill all the "sub human" Arabs? What % of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis do think want to kill all the Jews? Why is one a major problem that needs to be stopped before it takes over the world and the others the good guys? A high percentage in all of those cases. I have never said nor do I believe that Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are good guys, you just made that up because you're lashing out and you don't care that you are dishonest. I care about stopping Israel more because Israel is responsible for more deaths (in all likelihood, several hundreds of thousands in the last year), is doing it with our support as the West, and by its actions is creating more support for these other groups. Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:47 Billyboy wrote:
Edit: that was not a good faith answer, it was not an answer so I just stopped. No it was a good faith answer, that's what I genuinely believe a communist nation should do if it was surrounded by fascist nations, lol. What do you think I believe it should do, if not that? Surrender? I believe in antifascism, I think violence against fascists is justified, I'll never waver from that.
I mean you said Hamas and the Palestinians were the same, which I totally disagree with. And you seem to think of them as the victims and not as participants. Israel is responsible for way less deaths than Iran, Russia, HTS, Turkey, hell maybe even the Kurds in the middle east. Come on now.
Hamas is got exactly what they wanted from Israel, they share blame for all of this.
Defend is not an answer it is a vague non answer a politician uses. Hell it is what Israel says they are doing.
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On February 12 2025 03:05 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 02:45 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 02:37 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 02:16 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. To what extent do you think Israel would continue to expand? Are you saying this is all specific to Arab nations, or do you think Israel has similar ambitions to the big 3? I want to better understand the disconnect between our assumptions. Do you mean within a realistic framework? There's no shot that Israel would be in a position to claim land that doesn't belong to an Arab nation in the foreseeable future unless many other things about the world have changed. I suppose within reasonable framework? I suppose all nations would prefer to control the whole planet if they had a magic wand? If nothing else, may as well for their own safety? I’m just trying to have a conversation about what we think Israel’s actual goals are. You are saying Israel will just ethnically cleanse other nations after Palestinians are gone. I am asking for more specifics because I don’t understand why you think that. I explained they don’t seem to have any plans to do that with Egypt or Jordan. Are you saying you think Lebanon and Syria will be ethnically cleansed? Or just that Israel would ethnically cleanse them if they had a magic wand? Since we often have wildly different impressions of specific situations, I am trying to learn more about how you think to better understand why we seem to have such different predictions so often. We’ve both agreed Israel would leap at an opportunity to remove all Palestinians if they had a chance to do so. So we can agree sometimes. But with regards to Egypt and Jordan, it seems like we are operating with very different assumptions. So that’s why I’m asking for you to explain those to me. It’s of course up to you, but I’m just continuing the conversation. I’m not trying to spin you into some kinda gotcha. I just don’t understand. I don't believe that controlling the whole planet makes you safer, if anything I believe the exact opposite. If you don't rule over others against their will, they have less reason to hate you. Also you're not "controlling" these lands, are you, you're taking them. It's not that Palestinians are becoming your subjects, they're erased from the picture. Bit different. I already explained why I believe this: because it is in line with fascist ideology, and in line with the rhetoric of Israel. Israel isn't saying: "We have a small problem to deal with in Palestine and then we'll live in harmony", Israel is saying "We are surrounded by evil antisemitic human animals and we need to defend ourselves". If Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing about that sentence has changed, so it would be weird and illogical for Israel to stop everything at that point. Didn't you like that explanation? You quoted me saying all of this. When Israel said they are surrounded by antisemitic governments/groups, I don't think they were including Egypt and Jordan in that. They've had good relations with both for a long time and I really just don't see any evidence of what you are saying. I agree they had those fears of Lebanon and Syria, but those situations had rapidly changed. Do you see why I am pointing to Egypt and Jordan as evidence they are fine with coexisting so long as they do not pose a risk? For example, Israel is not continuing to blast through Syria to their full capability, despite being severely weakened. Same with Lebanon. They were blasting both Syria and Lebanon a whole lot recently despite being stronger than Gaza. So it doesn't look like they just focus on the weakest Arab group. To be direct: I think Israel is just extremely intolerant of even mild military risk. They will completely wipe out any risk much more quickly than other nations. If the risk is small, they still focus on eliminating that risk until its gone. I think they label Egypt and Jordan as zero risk and they have no plans to invade either one. I think Israel will try to destroy Yemen, Iran, and Iraq, if things remain as they are. But I don't think they will try to destroy Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey because all of those countries can be considered zero threat for either military or diplomatic reasons. I think Israel gives the impression of being genocide-driven maniacs because they are comfortable being very cruel while they eliminate small risks. But I think history paints a clear picture that Israel prefers to not engage in conflict so long as they are not letting risks fester. But if they perceive even a small risk, F35s are in the air bombing the shit out of whatever that small risk is.
What do you believe contradicts what I said in your explanation? Egypt and Jordan are the group that is less vulnerable. They're like, I don't know, sex before marriage. So the conservatives are currently not doing anything against them, because that would not be smart. Instead they're going after the trans people, which is Palestinians, and if that's over they'll go after the gays and lesbians, Lebanon and Syria. If they succeed in all of that, they'll need a new enemy, and that new enemy might be sex before marriage. Of course if you look at the situation right now it doesn't look like Egypt is going to get attacked, or sex before marriage. That's the whole point of doing things this way, that's literally what you should be expecting. But, you can look at why Republicans are currently targeting trans people: to satisfy religious weirdos who hate non-normative sexualities and want control over women's bodies, and you can look at why Israel wants to take Arab land: because the far right needs an enemy to keep the population safe from in order to justify its power, and because of the colonialism and anti-arab racism that are at the roots of Israel as a project.
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On February 12 2025 03:15 Billyboy wrote:
I mean you said Hamas and the Palestinians were the same, which I totally disagree with. And you seem to think of them as the victims and not as participants. Israel is responsible for way less deaths than Iran, Russia, HTS, Turkey, hell maybe even the Kurds in the middle east. Come on now.
Hamas is got exactly what they wanted from Israel, they share blame for all of this.
When did I say that Hamas and Palestinians are the same, can I get the context please? I'm not interested in how things "seem" to you because that's probably coloured by the decade you've spent hating me.
You didn't say Iran, Russia, HTS, Turkey, you said Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis. Which is why my answer was correct against what you said, and would have been incorrect if you had said some other thing.
On February 12 2025 03:15 Billyboy wrote:
Defend is not an answer it is a vague non answer a politician uses. Hell it is what Israel says they are doing.
Yeah, and they're lying. But I wasn't. See the difference? It's not very hard.
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United States41950 Posts
On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine.
Slippery slope fallacies are fallacies.
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On February 12 2025 03:15 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 02:59 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 02:47 Billyboy wrote:
What percentage of Israeli's do you think want to kill all the "sub human" Arabs? What % of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis do think want to kill all the Jews? Why is one a major problem that needs to be stopped before it takes over the world and the others the good guys? A high percentage in all of those cases. I have never said nor do I believe that Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are good guys, you just made that up because you're lashing out and you don't care that you are dishonest. I care about stopping Israel more because Israel is responsible for more deaths (in all likelihood, several hundreds of thousands in the last year), is doing it with our support as the West, and by its actions is creating more support for these other groups. On February 12 2025 02:47 Billyboy wrote:
Edit: that was not a good faith answer, it was not an answer so I just stopped. No it was a good faith answer, that's what I genuinely believe a communist nation should do if it was surrounded by fascist nations, lol. What do you think I believe it should do, if not that? Surrender? I believe in antifascism, I think violence against fascists is justified, I'll never waver from that. I mean you said Hamas and the Palestinians were the same, which I totally disagree with. And you seem to think of them as the victims and not as participants. Israel is responsible for way less deaths than Iran, Russia, HTS, Turkey, hell maybe even the Kurds in the middle east. Come on now. Hamas is got exactly what they wanted from Israel, they share blame for all of this. Defend is not an answer it is a vague non answer a politician uses. Hell it is what Israel says they are doing.
I'm not quote farming, you know what you said and did so multiple times. And your second sentence is equally bad, you can't claim we've had some long history and then use and ignore it when you please. I mean you do, because you can't have a straightforward honest conversation because you have certain beliefs you would struggle to hide.
Neb I don't hate you, I could care less about you. I don't want other impressionable people to not know that you are writing anti-Semitic tropes and think that you have some actual evidence about a Jewish take over of the middle east.
And you are also saying that a similar % of Israelis, which include 2 million Arabs consider Arabs sub-human and want them all killed as Hamas? Again this is just obviously and completely false. When you say Israel you mean the Jewish ones, it is just that you also know that saying that would make you something you don't want to be. I'm suggesting that instead of using word games to try to keep yourself clean, you just stop spreading tropes and live in reality not the conspiracy rabbit hole.
Edit: You clearly have a defense, you hate me so create this back story where I hate you and blah blah blah. But if you reads my posts the only ones "mean" to you and when you use antiemitism, and yet you are a jerk to me all the time. You have also created a narrative that allows you to guilt free hate the Jewish Israelis.
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On February 12 2025 03:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. Slippery slope fallacies are fallacies.
Would you say it is a slippery slope to claim that Republicans are racists because they're going after illegal immigrants? There are other people of color in the US and they're currently not going after them.
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On February 12 2025 03:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. Slippery slope fallacies are fallacies.
Sounds like the Domino theory, which I'm sure Newb completely agrees with.
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On February 12 2025 03:37 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 03:15 Billyboy wrote:On February 12 2025 02:59 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 02:47 Billyboy wrote:
What percentage of Israeli's do you think want to kill all the "sub human" Arabs? What % of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis do think want to kill all the Jews? Why is one a major problem that needs to be stopped before it takes over the world and the others the good guys? A high percentage in all of those cases. I have never said nor do I believe that Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are good guys, you just made that up because you're lashing out and you don't care that you are dishonest. I care about stopping Israel more because Israel is responsible for more deaths (in all likelihood, several hundreds of thousands in the last year), is doing it with our support as the West, and by its actions is creating more support for these other groups. On February 12 2025 02:47 Billyboy wrote:
Edit: that was not a good faith answer, it was not an answer so I just stopped. No it was a good faith answer, that's what I genuinely believe a communist nation should do if it was surrounded by fascist nations, lol. What do you think I believe it should do, if not that? Surrender? I believe in antifascism, I think violence against fascists is justified, I'll never waver from that. I mean you said Hamas and the Palestinians were the same, which I totally disagree with. And you seem to think of them as the victims and not as participants. Israel is responsible for way less deaths than Iran, Russia, HTS, Turkey, hell maybe even the Kurds in the middle east. Come on now. Hamas is got exactly what they wanted from Israel, they share blame for all of this. Defend is not an answer it is a vague non answer a politician uses. Hell it is what Israel says they are doing. I'm not quote farming, you know what you said and did so multiple times. And your second sentence is equally bad, you can't claim we've had some long history and then use and ignore it when you please. I mean you do, because you can't have a straightforward honest conversation because you have certain beliefs you would struggle to hide. Neb I don't hate you, I could care less about you. I don't want other impressionable people to not know that you are writing anti-Semitic tropes and think that you have some actual evidence about a Jewish take over of the middle east. And you are also saying that a similar % of Israelis, which include 2 million Arabs consider Arabs sub-human and want them all killed as Hamas? Again this is just obviously and completely false. When you say Israel you mean the Jewish ones, it is just that you also know that saying that would make you something you don't want to be. I'm suggesting that instead of using word games to try to keep yourself clean, you just stop spreading tropes and live in reality not the conspiracy rabbit hole.
Until you can come up with a quote I'm going to treat this as a blatant defamatory lie, which is in line with your general behavior.
You couldn't care less about me? Lol there must be like 15 people in your life that you've talked to more than me over the years. I have asked you several times to stop engaging with me, and when I tried to ignore you for a few months, you repeatedly answered most of my posts with lies and nonsense to try and bait me back into talking to you. This is also what you're doing with GH, who has been ignoring you for years and you're still harrassing him on the daily. I wish we lived in the world where you wouldn't care about me, this world is The Good Place.
When people live in conspiracy world, what happens is that they say things that are untrue, and then when reality proves them wrong they either deny it or move on to the next thing. This doesn't seem to match our experience in this thread, does it? You're the one who was adamant that Israel didn't want to ethnically cleanse Palestine. You're the one who thought Israel was only destroying the Gaza houses that were directly tied to Hamas. You're the one who keeps insisting I hate Jews even though that doesn't match my posts. You're the one who keeps being proven wrong, again and again.
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United States41950 Posts
On February 12 2025 03:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 03:35 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. Slippery slope fallacies are fallacies. Would you say it is a slippery slope to claim that Republicans are racists because they're going after illegal immigrants? There are other people of color in the US and they're currently not going after them.
No, I would not say that. That situation is not comparable.
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On February 12 2025 03:53 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 03:38 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 03:35 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. Slippery slope fallacies are fallacies. Would you say it is a slippery slope to claim that Republicans are racists because they're going after illegal immigrants? There are other people of color in the US and they're currently not going after them. No, I would not say that. That situation is not comparable.
Why not?
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United States41950 Posts
On February 12 2025 03:55 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 03:53 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 03:38 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 03:35 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. Slippery slope fallacies are fallacies. Would you say it is a slippery slope to claim that Republicans are racists because they're going after illegal immigrants? There are other people of color in the US and they're currently not going after them. No, I would not say that. That situation is not comparable. Why not?
Because it’s extremely different. You are not even attempting to debate in good faith here.
You can’t put words in someone’s mouth and then when they reject those words put the burden on them to explain why those aren’t their words. They’re not their words.
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On February 12 2025 04:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 03:55 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 03:53 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 03:38 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 03:35 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. Slippery slope fallacies are fallacies. Would you say it is a slippery slope to claim that Republicans are racists because they're going after illegal immigrants? There are other people of color in the US and they're currently not going after them. No, I would not say that. That situation is not comparable. Why not? Because it’s extremely different. You are not even attempting to debate in good faith here. You can’t put words in someone’s mouth and then when they reject those words put the burden on them to explain why those aren’t their words. They’re not their words.
I never said they were your words. They were my words. It's a part of my long explanation post. Didn't you read it?
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United States41950 Posts
On February 12 2025 04:07 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 04:02 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 03:55 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 03:53 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 03:38 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 03:35 KwarK wrote:On February 12 2025 01:45 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2025 01:30 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2025 01:11 Nebuchad wrote:
I disagree, I think there's a need because I've just spent the last year arguing with a bunch of idiots and racists that Israel wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and now that it's obvious even to them that they do, it looks like we're smoothly transitioning to "Once they've ethnically cleansed Palestine it'll be all over". So before I engage with this new silliness I want to know if this one is going to stick or if we'll be off to the next excuse when I'm proven right again. I think if Israel can have the same relationship with Syria+Lebanon as they do with Egypt+Jordan, they will not ethnically cleanse Syria+Lebanon. I don't know enough to say whether that is achievable or not, but I do see Egypt and Jordan as examples of Arab nations that Israel shows no interest in ethnically cleansing. Is it that you suspect Israel will try to ethnically cleanse Egypt and Jordan as well? Of course, yes. But they will start with Lebanon clearly. What they would do in this future will be very similar to what they did with Hamas: do absolutely everything in their power to make sure that Lebanon and Syria are unstable and stay unstable, and then go, look guys, what can we do, Lebanon and Syria are unstable, we can't have a good relationship with them, we are forced to take some of their land in self-defense. They'll repeat that process as long as it works. How can I tell that this is likely, well I can because it's in line with how every far right endeavor has been attempted in history and today. You may have read in the US politics thread that Kwark thinks the Republicans are currently doing a racism. But it's weird, because, have you noticed that they only target illegal immigrants? So it's not a racism when you think about it, it's only a fight against illegals. Or like, that the Republicans hate LGBT people? Nah man, they're only going after trans people, not gay people, so it's unfair to say that they are against LGBT. You see how it works? You always focus on the most vulnerable group first, because the "most" anything is the most extreme part, and as an extreme they are less protected. But when you win, it's not the end, it's time to go after the next part. That's why we know that the far right isn't only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people. Now you could imagine someone who is only against illegal immigrants, or only against trans people, of course. I'm even willing to say that I'm sure there are a few honest terfs, who are only transphobic and have nothing against lesbianism for instance. So how do we determine what we're dealing with? Well it's easy, we look at the context. Is it likely that Republicans are only against illegal immigrants? Well, their current strategy is a direct descendant of the southern strategy, in which they were trying to get votes by appealing to racists in the wake of the advances of civil rights for black people. Black people aren't illegal immigrants, are they. So clearly the strategy book that is being followed goes further than illegal immigrants, they're just targeted as the most vulnerable group currently. If they're "successfully dealt with", we'll hear more about black crime statistics and skull shapes, obviously. Similarly, the main hatred against trans people in conservative America is rooted in religious beliefs against non-normative sexualities, and that entails everything from L to T, so that's why we know that gay people aren't safe. How do you translate that to Israel? Well, the same applies. Check out the propaganda that Ren has been fed: Israel is surrounded by enemies and is fighting for survival in this hostile environment. It's not just this small issue with Palestine and once it's fixed we can all live in harmony, it's all the surrounding arab nations that are filled with antisemitic animals and need to be taught a lesson in who is the strongest from time to time. Once Palestine is ethnically cleansed, nothing in this sentence has changed, the "border" is just in a different place. It is functionally the same as declaring that Poland is safe because Russia is currently only going after Ukraine. Slippery slope fallacies are fallacies. Would you say it is a slippery slope to claim that Republicans are racists because they're going after illegal immigrants? There are other people of color in the US and they're currently not going after them. No, I would not say that. That situation is not comparable. Why not? Because it’s extremely different. You are not even attempting to debate in good faith here. You can’t put words in someone’s mouth and then when they reject those words put the burden on them to explain why those aren’t their words. They’re not their words. I never said they were your words. They were my words. It's a part of my long explanation post. Didn't you read it?
“Would you say”
“No I would not”
Are we done here?
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EPT
