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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated.
If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in.
Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants?
These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict.
Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans?
As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say
This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified.
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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans.
What do you mean? It’s Billyboy, a newcomer to these verdant lands!
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On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified.
This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor.
Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples.
Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry.
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Northern Ireland22820 Posts
On November 09 2024 11:35 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified. This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor. Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples. Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry.
I said ‘in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour, so I kinda did mention the ‘got the same guys’ element already
You’ve notably not answered my question.
If a bunch of fans of an Israeli club came over and behaved with impeccable decorum, and got attacked in the centre of Amsterdam I’d have absolutely zero issue saying there’s fully anti-Semitism at play, indeed as I also said I still think it’s a factor even now
If a bunch of Israelis come over and chant inflammatory things about killing Palestinians, and boo a commemoration of the deaths of Spaniards, because Spain has been critical of Israeli conduct.
As I also said I don’t think that justifies beating folks up, as I’ve also stressed.
But is it anti-Semitism or is it behaving like giant fucking pricks?
We saw in the UK, (modlty but not exclusively) Muslims cheering the events of 7th of October. Repugnant, absolutely anti-Semitic shit.
If Jews, or indeed anybody else waded in with violence, or the threat thereof I wouldn’t ascribe their motives to be anti-Muslim at all, but a reaction to the view itself.
You do see what I’m talking about right?
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On November 09 2024 11:35 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified. This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor. Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples. Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry.
The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad
I'd be careful with that kind of rhetoric when you've spent the entire thread defending and justifying the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children.
There's a thing about football fan culture where this kind of violence can happen, especially when a team's fans turn up and behave the way some of Maccabi's fans behaved. It blurs the lines as to how much of this was antisemitism and how much was football hooligans wanting a fight.
To make it clear, completely innocent fans have been killed before as revenge for things that happened in previous matches between the same teams. Football violence is insane and it can get especially bad in European games where teams don't come up against each other very often and the hooligans see it as an opportunity to do their thing. In their warped world they see it as 'representing' their team and country.
When you see fans travel into Europe and behave the way Maccabi fans did the first thing you think as a football fan is "There's going to be trouble later".
I would say the most likely situation there's probably some racists in there looking for Jews to beat up and probably some football hooligans in there looking for revenge.
That doesn't mean people shouldn't be outraged at the violence btw.
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On November 09 2024 15:27 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 11:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified. This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor. Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples. Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry. Show nested quote +The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad I'd be careful with that kind of rhetoric when you've spent the entire thread defending and justifying the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children. There's a thing about football fan culture where this kind of violence can happen, especially when a team's fans turn up and behave the way some of Maccabi's fans behaved. It blurs the lines as to how much of this was antisemitism and how much was football hooligans wanting a fight. To make it clear, completely innocent fans have been killed before as revenge for things that happened in previous matches between the same teams. Football violence is insane and it can get especially bad in European games where teams don't come up against each other very often and the hooligans see it as an opportunity to do their thing. In their warped world they see it as 'representing' their team and country. When you see fans travel into Europe and behave the way Maccabi fans did the first thing you think as a football fan is "There's going to be trouble later". I would say the most likely situation there's probably some racists in there looking for Jews to beat up and probably some football hooligans in there looking for revenge. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be outraged at the violence btw.
I am doubtful that it was football hooliganism. It was definitely hateful. This English language blog seems to explain the relationship between Ajax and Judaism well, and also in the context of the attacks: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2024/11/jewish-history-behind-dutch-soccer-attacks/680601/
Also, let's not pretend the Maccabi fans' atrocious behaviour during the match had anything to do with them getting hunted and beaten. The organisation of the pogrom was planning this before the match even started, as demonstrated by timestamps of their social media posts.
As Femke Halsema said, this was a black day in Amsterdam's history. And not because of football hooliganism, but because of anti-Semitism.
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On November 09 2024 16:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 15:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 09 2024 11:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified. This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor. Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples. Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad I'd be careful with that kind of rhetoric when you've spent the entire thread defending and justifying the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children. There's a thing about football fan culture where this kind of violence can happen, especially when a team's fans turn up and behave the way some of Maccabi's fans behaved. It blurs the lines as to how much of this was antisemitism and how much was football hooligans wanting a fight. To make it clear, completely innocent fans have been killed before as revenge for things that happened in previous matches between the same teams. Football violence is insane and it can get especially bad in European games where teams don't come up against each other very often and the hooligans see it as an opportunity to do their thing. In their warped world they see it as 'representing' their team and country. When you see fans travel into Europe and behave the way Maccabi fans did the first thing you think as a football fan is "There's going to be trouble later". I would say the most likely situation there's probably some racists in there looking for Jews to beat up and probably some football hooligans in there looking for revenge. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be outraged at the violence btw. I am doubtful that it was football hooliganism. It was definitely hateful. This English language blog seems to explain the relationship between Ajax and Judaism well, and also in the context of the attacks: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2024/11/jewish-history-behind-dutch-soccer-attacks/680601/Also, let's not pretend the Maccabi fans' atrocious behaviour during the match had anything to do with them getting hunted and beaten. The organisation of the pogrom was planning this before the match even started, as demonstrated by timestamps of their social media posts. As Femke Halsema said, this was a black day in Amsterdam's history. And not because of football hooliganism, but because of anti-Semitism.
Its not just their behaviour during the match, but before the match too.
Plenty of time for people to organize.
I don't think its unreasonable to assume that a fanbase with a history of hooliganism who have at least 7 different groups of hooligans associated with them and a weird and tense history with Israel would partake in hooliganism when Israeli fans turn up looking for trouble.
From the Independent:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amsterdam-ajax-israel-tel-aviv-fans-clash-timeline-b2643949.html
violence erupted as football hooligans, fans, taxi-drivers and pro-Palestinian activists clashed near the canals and tramlines of Amsterdam.
So we know football hooligans were fighting already.
I don't understand how this is 'pretending'.
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On November 09 2024 16:59 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 16:48 Acrofales wrote:On November 09 2024 15:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 09 2024 11:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified. This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor. Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples. Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad I'd be careful with that kind of rhetoric when you've spent the entire thread defending and justifying the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children. There's a thing about football fan culture where this kind of violence can happen, especially when a team's fans turn up and behave the way some of Maccabi's fans behaved. It blurs the lines as to how much of this was antisemitism and how much was football hooligans wanting a fight. To make it clear, completely innocent fans have been killed before as revenge for things that happened in previous matches between the same teams. Football violence is insane and it can get especially bad in European games where teams don't come up against each other very often and the hooligans see it as an opportunity to do their thing. In their warped world they see it as 'representing' their team and country. When you see fans travel into Europe and behave the way Maccabi fans did the first thing you think as a football fan is "There's going to be trouble later". I would say the most likely situation there's probably some racists in there looking for Jews to beat up and probably some football hooligans in there looking for revenge. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be outraged at the violence btw. I am doubtful that it was football hooliganism. It was definitely hateful. This English language blog seems to explain the relationship between Ajax and Judaism well, and also in the context of the attacks: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2024/11/jewish-history-behind-dutch-soccer-attacks/680601/Also, let's not pretend the Maccabi fans' atrocious behaviour during the match had anything to do with them getting hunted and beaten. The organisation of the pogrom was planning this before the match even started, as demonstrated by timestamps of their social media posts. As Femke Halsema said, this was a black day in Amsterdam's history. And not because of football hooliganism, but because of anti-Semitism. Its not just their behaviour during the match, but before the match too. Plenty of time for people to organize. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that a fanbase with a history of hooliganism who have at least 7 different groups of hooligans associated with them and a weird and tense history with Israel would partake in hooliganism when Israeli fans turn up looking for trouble. From the Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amsterdam-ajax-israel-tel-aviv-fans-clash-timeline-b2643949.htmlShow nested quote +violence erupted as football hooligans, fans, taxi-drivers and pro-Palestinian activists clashed near the canals and tramlines of Amsterdam. So we know football hooligans were fighting already. I don't understand how this is 'pretending'.
What I'm arguing isn't that the Maccabi fans didn't behave like hooligans. They did. They chanted slogans in the train on the way there and pulled down a Palestinian flag when they gathered before the match. But hooliganism generally begets hooliganism. When Ajax and Feyenoord clash and hooligans trash the city for the umpteenth time, it's clearly hooliganism, even if the Feyenoord hooligans chant anti-Semitic slogans. In this situation, the greater damage was not done by Ajax hooligans, but by taxi drivers and anti-Israeli protesters. That's what moves it from "typical" football hooliganism to a pogrom. The perpetrators didn't mobilize to fight for their football club (however inane that is), they mobilised to beat up the Israelis.
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On November 09 2024 17:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 16:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 09 2024 16:48 Acrofales wrote:On November 09 2024 15:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 09 2024 11:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified. This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor. Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples. Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad I'd be careful with that kind of rhetoric when you've spent the entire thread defending and justifying the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children. There's a thing about football fan culture where this kind of violence can happen, especially when a team's fans turn up and behave the way some of Maccabi's fans behaved. It blurs the lines as to how much of this was antisemitism and how much was football hooligans wanting a fight. To make it clear, completely innocent fans have been killed before as revenge for things that happened in previous matches between the same teams. Football violence is insane and it can get especially bad in European games where teams don't come up against each other very often and the hooligans see it as an opportunity to do their thing. In their warped world they see it as 'representing' their team and country. When you see fans travel into Europe and behave the way Maccabi fans did the first thing you think as a football fan is "There's going to be trouble later". I would say the most likely situation there's probably some racists in there looking for Jews to beat up and probably some football hooligans in there looking for revenge. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be outraged at the violence btw. I am doubtful that it was football hooliganism. It was definitely hateful. This English language blog seems to explain the relationship between Ajax and Judaism well, and also in the context of the attacks: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2024/11/jewish-history-behind-dutch-soccer-attacks/680601/Also, let's not pretend the Maccabi fans' atrocious behaviour during the match had anything to do with them getting hunted and beaten. The organisation of the pogrom was planning this before the match even started, as demonstrated by timestamps of their social media posts. As Femke Halsema said, this was a black day in Amsterdam's history. And not because of football hooliganism, but because of anti-Semitism. Its not just their behaviour during the match, but before the match too. Plenty of time for people to organize. I don't think its unreasonable to assume that a fanbase with a history of hooliganism who have at least 7 different groups of hooligans associated with them and a weird and tense history with Israel would partake in hooliganism when Israeli fans turn up looking for trouble. From the Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amsterdam-ajax-israel-tel-aviv-fans-clash-timeline-b2643949.htmlviolence erupted as football hooligans, fans, taxi-drivers and pro-Palestinian activists clashed near the canals and tramlines of Amsterdam. So we know football hooligans were fighting already. I don't understand how this is 'pretending'. What I'm arguing isn't that the Maccabi fans didn't behave like hooligans. They did. They chanted slogans in the train on the way there and pulled down a Palestinian flag when they gathered before the match. But hooliganism generally begets hooliganism. When Ajax and Feyenoord clash and hooligans trash the city for the umpteenth time, it's clearly hooliganism, even if the Feyenoord hooligans chant anti-Semitic slogans. In this situation, the greater damage was not done by Ajax hooligans, but by taxi drivers and anti-Israeli protesters. That's what moves it from "typical" football hooliganism to a pogrom. The perpetrators didn't mobilize to fight for their football club (however inane that is), they mobilised to beat up the Israelis.
Nice euphemism, your "slogans" are a call for genocide, that's way more than your average hooliganism. That's even worst considering these people are not your average neonazi, they're actually at the time now perpetuating a genocide, they should never have been allowed to be in europe to begin with.
Nice hyperbole, calling it a pogrom is really devaluing the term, no jewish properties, synaguogs or anything attack, not even a minority, just a bunch of genociding people getting a few slaps.
A few murders of palestinian children, a few tik tok and they wikl get better, see ? https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelCrimes/s/vUR20qLzk7
Their whole society is built of these sort of pictures. There are dozen of thousand pictures like these. There are literaly a flood of those.
They literally put these shit on their dating pictures, years ago, they are still testimonies of children being put naked at their checkpoint. Their initiation as a man is to terrorize people in the west bank, it's been like that for decades.
So stop talking about pogrom, pogroms target specific minorities who enjoy no power whatsoever, it ends up with the said minority property being destroyed and their place of cult as well. That's happen on the muslim minorities in india when hundred are killed, or the hindou/ christian ones in pakistan, it doesn't correspond to genociding people who actually control the narrative. Equaling this with a bunch of neonazis getting handle up is absolutly disgusting.
Edit : Actually the place where the most pogroms occurs currently happens to be west bank. I mean, there are not a minority (not yet) but there are defenseless and when they try, there are terrorists.
https://fr.euronews.com/2024/11/04/cisjordanie-occupee-des-colons-israeliens-ont-lance-une-attaque-sur-la-ville-dal-bireh
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On October 21 2024 05:11 stilt wrote:And to expand your point : https://www.972mag.com/northern-gaza-liquidation-scenario-eiland-rabi/It's a bit weird that this sort of debate almost never includes what the israelis are saying. We're talking about a society in which major centrist scholars can advocate for an ethnic cleansing since two decades. Another elephant in the room is the tik tok by israeli soldiers with the ruin of Gaza being stages as an amusement park filled with "animals "to torture, never a war has been so fun to the depraved and sadists.
I double post because it is not exactly the same subject. I mean, it's still an affair of a genocide.
20 days ago, I published this from the palestinian-israeli blog 972mag
Seems like it has caught the attention of a bit more mainstream media, here is the vatican news who is talking about the plan of ethnic cleansing and new colonization of gaza : https://www.vaticannews.va/fr/monde/news/2024-11/plan-des-generaux-israel-bande-de-gaza-analyse-idan-landau.html
The interviewed is Idan Landau, he did make prison by refusing to serve in the west bank.
While the 972mag has most likely the right name of this operation "clean and order", the vatican news calls that the "generals' plan" or "plan of the general" as it has been proposed by a former israeli general Giora Eiland in the columns of time of israel in april 2024. Seems a bit more important than a bunch of nazis receiving a few punchs.
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On November 09 2024 16:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 15:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 09 2024 11:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified. This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor. Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples. Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad I'd be careful with that kind of rhetoric when you've spent the entire thread defending and justifying the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children. There's a thing about football fan culture where this kind of violence can happen, especially when a team's fans turn up and behave the way some of Maccabi's fans behaved. It blurs the lines as to how much of this was antisemitism and how much was football hooligans wanting a fight. To make it clear, completely innocent fans have been killed before as revenge for things that happened in previous matches between the same teams. Football violence is insane and it can get especially bad in European games where teams don't come up against each other very often and the hooligans see it as an opportunity to do their thing. In their warped world they see it as 'representing' their team and country. When you see fans travel into Europe and behave the way Maccabi fans did the first thing you think as a football fan is "There's going to be trouble later". I would say the most likely situation there's probably some racists in there looking for Jews to beat up and probably some football hooligans in there looking for revenge. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be outraged at the violence btw. I am doubtful that it was football hooliganism. It was definitely hateful. This English language blog seems to explain the relationship between Ajax and Judaism well, and also in the context of the attacks: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2024/11/jewish-history-behind-dutch-soccer-attacks/680601/Also, let's not pretend the Maccabi fans' atrocious behaviour during the match had anything to do with them getting hunted and beaten. The organisation of the pogrom was planning this before the match even started, as demonstrated by timestamps of their social media posts. As Femke Halsema said, this was a black day in Amsterdam's history. And not because of football hooliganism, but because of anti-Semitism.
Blog isn't exactly convincing. It talks about the "conclusive evidence" that it was antisemitism but it doesn't mention it. You mention that it was planned before the match but as Jock said the Maccabi fans started before the match too. It definitely could be antisemitism, seems far from the most likely proposition though.
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On November 09 2024 19:29 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 16:48 Acrofales wrote:On November 09 2024 15:27 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 09 2024 11:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 09:56 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated. If Iranians travelled to some showdown with a European football team and were chanting that October 7th was great, and some of them got their shit kicked in. Would you describe that as an anti-Iranian, or indeed Islamophic event, or a reaction to those chants? These fans actively booed throughout a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims, I’m assuming because the Spanish government and citizenry aren’t huge fans of how Israel is conducting this conflict. Or alternatively if some white folks just chilling and minding their own business get beaten up for being white, is that equivalent to a bunch of Neo-Nazis showing up and getting beaten up for chanting anti-minority slogans? As Jock alluded to, European football’s governing body concluded that two Israeli teams are the worst in their remit for racist chanting. Which is really saying something considering the behaviour of some Eastern European sides in recent years. You’ve never struck me as a particular football obsessive, I definitely am and I also read a lot about the intersection between football, culture and history. I’m rather on top of it let’s say This isn’t to say anti-Semitism also didn’t factor in, or that violence (in some cases against people who didn’t partake in such behaviour) is particularly justified. This is a extremely horrible take. Like you really think they got the same guys? And not the story that is actually being presented by every news source and their leftist mayor. Bunch of you have the logic abilities of MAGA's if it is bad for my side it isn't real, if it is good for my side it is, if there is video proof there is a good reason, or at least just a few bad apples. Eidt: not to mention if it was reversed it would still be bad, I would be saying how bad it was that the Jews did that and you would be agreeing with me. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad. Not sorry. The thing that makes so many in this thread mad is that unlike you I'm against all hate crimes and when I point out the obvious parts you are leaving out to fit your narrative it makes you mad I'd be careful with that kind of rhetoric when you've spent the entire thread defending and justifying the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children. There's a thing about football fan culture where this kind of violence can happen, especially when a team's fans turn up and behave the way some of Maccabi's fans behaved. It blurs the lines as to how much of this was antisemitism and how much was football hooligans wanting a fight. To make it clear, completely innocent fans have been killed before as revenge for things that happened in previous matches between the same teams. Football violence is insane and it can get especially bad in European games where teams don't come up against each other very often and the hooligans see it as an opportunity to do their thing. In their warped world they see it as 'representing' their team and country. When you see fans travel into Europe and behave the way Maccabi fans did the first thing you think as a football fan is "There's going to be trouble later". I would say the most likely situation there's probably some racists in there looking for Jews to beat up and probably some football hooligans in there looking for revenge. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be outraged at the violence btw. I am doubtful that it was football hooliganism. It was definitely hateful. This English language blog seems to explain the relationship between Ajax and Judaism well, and also in the context of the attacks: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2024/11/jewish-history-behind-dutch-soccer-attacks/680601/Also, let's not pretend the Maccabi fans' atrocious behaviour during the match had anything to do with them getting hunted and beaten. The organisation of the pogrom was planning this before the match even started, as demonstrated by timestamps of their social media posts. As Femke Halsema said, this was a black day in Amsterdam's history. And not because of football hooliganism, but because of anti-Semitism. Blog isn't exactly convincing. It talks about the "conclusive evidence" that it was antisemitism but it doesn't mention it. You mention that it was planned before the match but as Jock said the Maccabi fans started before the match too. It definitely could be antisemitism, seems far from the most likely proposition though.
There almost certainly were antisemitic attacks. The testimony of people involved is pretty conclusive. Hate crimes were committed.
All I was saying is that there was probably a large element football hooliganism at the same time.
Its was a clash of a bunch of things that all spelled trouble.
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Reuters: "Abu Zuhri said Trump would be tested on his statements that he can stop the war within hours of taking office as U.S. president."
On January 20th, 1981 during Ronald Reagan's inauguration Iran released US Hostages after 444 days of captivity. Radical Psycho Terrorists suddenly became pleasant diplomatic negotiators knowing Reagan would burn Iran to the ground and kill every single one of the students holding the US hostages. Had the hostages remained in Iran on January 21, 1981 the Iran we know today would not exist.
Republican Ronald Reagan instantly solved a 444 day problem in minutes. A problem affable, flexible, diplomatic, agreeable nice guy Democrat Jimmy Carter could never solve.
Please do not watch the movie "Argo" expecting to learn anything from the Iran Hostage Crisis of 1980. The movie was total fiction. Canadian Ken Taylor was the real hero. "Argo" is US propaganda.
It'll be interesting to see if Hamas becomes reasonable negotiators as a hard line Republican wearing a red "Make America Great Again" hat brings a quick resolution to a 444 day middle east conflict.
444..... hmmm. we're at 399 at this point.
"We urge Trump to learn from Biden's mistakes," Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters.
Hamas now has a plausible explanation for a new spirit of co operation and diplomacy while they can blame Biden.
" Hamas said the U.S. election was a matter for the American people but it called for an end to the `blind support` for Israel from the United States. "
I must give a tip of my hat to Hamas for not endorsing Kamala Harris. This puts them in a good negotiation position.
Source:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-dismayed-by-trumps-win-their-leaders-urge-peace-2024-11-06/
Tell ya, after typing all this out I'm just about ready to sing the American National Anthem...
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It's alost like the revolutionary guard did everything in their power to assassinate Trump before the election for a reason.
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On November 09 2024 20:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Reuters: "Abu Zuhri said Trump would be tested on his statements that he can stop the war within hours of taking office as U.S. president." On January 20th, 1981 during Ronald Reagan's inauguration Iran released US Hostages after 444 days of captivity. Radical Psycho Terrorists suddenly became pleasant diplomatic negotiators knowing Reagan would burn Iran to the ground and kill every single one of the students holding the US hostages. Had the hostages remained in Iran on January 21, 1981 the Iran we know today would not exist. Republican Ronald Reagan instantly solved a 444 day problem in minutes. A problem affable, flexible, diplomatic, agreeable nice guy Democrat Jimmy Carter could never solve. Please do not watch the movie "Argo" expecting to learn anything from the Iran Hostage Crisis of 1980. The movie was total fiction. Canadian Ken Taylor was the real hero. "Argo" is US propaganda. It'll be interesting to see if Hamas becomes reasonable negotiators as a hard line Republican wearing a red "Make America Great Again" hat brings a quick resolution to a 444 day middle east conflict. 444..... hmmm. we're at 399 at this point. "We urge Trump to learn from Biden's mistakes," Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters. Hamas now has a plausible explanation for a new spirit of co operation and diplomacy while they can blame Biden. " Hamas said the U.S. election was a matter for the American people but it called for an end to the `blind support` for Israel from the United States. " I must give a tip of my hat to Hamas for not endorsing Kamala Harris. This puts them in a good negotiation position. Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-dismayed-by-trumps-win-their-leaders-urge-peace-2024-11-06/Tell ya, after typing all this out I'm just about ready to sing the American National Anthem...
Rather hard for Trump to threaten Gaza with razing it to the ground when that has already been done.
Also, Reagan did very little to solve the Iran conflict. He got the hostages home, but that was literally the only progress. The rest of what happened under Reagan is the Iran-Contra scandal. Hardly a great example to follow, although no doubt one Trump could follow if Khomeini says some nice things about his hair.
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Its incredibly easy to Trump to end the war in 1 day.
He calls Netanyahu and tells him he is free to do whatever he wants. Netanyahu then bombs every Palestinian he can find.
Done, war is over.
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On November 09 2024 21:42 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 20:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Reuters: "Abu Zuhri said Trump would be tested on his statements that he can stop the war within hours of taking office as U.S. president." On January 20th, 1981 during Ronald Reagan's inauguration Iran released US Hostages after 444 days of captivity. Radical Psycho Terrorists suddenly became pleasant diplomatic negotiators knowing Reagan would burn Iran to the ground and kill every single one of the students holding the US hostages. Had the hostages remained in Iran on January 21, 1981 the Iran we know today would not exist. Republican Ronald Reagan instantly solved a 444 day problem in minutes. A problem affable, flexible, diplomatic, agreeable nice guy Democrat Jimmy Carter could never solve. Please do not watch the movie "Argo" expecting to learn anything from the Iran Hostage Crisis of 1980. The movie was total fiction. Canadian Ken Taylor was the real hero. "Argo" is US propaganda. It'll be interesting to see if Hamas becomes reasonable negotiators as a hard line Republican wearing a red "Make America Great Again" hat brings a quick resolution to a 444 day middle east conflict. 444..... hmmm. we're at 399 at this point. "We urge Trump to learn from Biden's mistakes," Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters. Hamas now has a plausible explanation for a new spirit of co operation and diplomacy while they can blame Biden. " Hamas said the U.S. election was a matter for the American people but it called for an end to the `blind support` for Israel from the United States. " I must give a tip of my hat to Hamas for not endorsing Kamala Harris. This puts them in a good negotiation position. Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-dismayed-by-trumps-win-their-leaders-urge-peace-2024-11-06/Tell ya, after typing all this out I'm just about ready to sing the American National Anthem... Also, Reagan did very little to solve the Iran conflict. He got the hostages home, but that was literally the only progress. The rest of what happened under Reagan is the Iran-Contra scandal. Hardly a great example to follow, although no doubt one Trump could follow if Khomeini says some nice things about his hair.
Iran knew Reagan would bomb them into 2000 BC so they started negotiating with the current administration. Reagan was a hawk.
"Habitually Governor Reagan has advocated the injection of US military force when his predecessors both Dem and Republican chose peaceful means", Jimmy Carter October 30,.1980.
The hostages were held captive for 444 days of Carter's tenure.
Carter failed. Reagan succeeded.
On November 09 2024 23:10 Gorsameth wrote:
Its incredibly easy to Trump to end the war in 1 day.
He calls Netanyahu and tells him he is free to do whatever he wants. Netanyahu then bombs every Palestinian he can find.
Done, war is over.
Hamas has put themselves in a good position to negotiate and not appear weak.
Trump is already contributing to the cease fire by winning the election and signalling a change in foreign policy philosophy.
Things are looking up!!
It'll be interesting to see if this thing goes 444 days.
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Events in Amsterdam just regular idiots looking for some fights. Basicly that's what bored male young poor people do in big cities, and a good portion of football (not hand egg) fans want after a game. Violence as entertainment, with the Police being the referee preventing the worst.
While anti-semitism and anti-islamic slurs are used to differentiate the teams, it's not the desaster teary eyed politicians make it to be.
Sad: Even non-idiots in jewish football clubs catch some fallout and tensions.
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On November 09 2024 23:22 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Iran knew Reagan would bomb them into 2000 BC so they started negotiating with the current administration. Reagan was a hawk.
In the framework that you describe the people who want the war are your enemies and they're intimidated by your mighty strength so they bow down and stop the war. In the real world the people who want the war are your allies and it's perceived that you'll let them do whatever they want, including a huge donation from Adelson's wife during the election that was predicated on allowing Israel to ethnically cleanse the West Bank. Doesn't really apply in the same way.
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EPT
