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On November 08 2024 10:06 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 16:37 Nebuchad wrote:On November 07 2024 10:35 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 01:25 Nebuchad wrote:
Palestine is fucked but that was already true before, not much has changed. I hope we are efficient in telling all the liberals who will suddenly remember that genocide is bad to fuck off. This reads like a tacit admission that you, too, think that US politics are more important than the genocide. They are yeah. If american politics were different the genocide couldn't take place. Is it your position that if American politics were different there would be peace where all get along? Or that Iran's proxies would quickly overwhelm Israel and ethnically cleanse all that live there bringing peace?
No I think people would still probably go into wars if american politics were different. Difficult to answer the second question without insulting your intelligence, maybe Iran wouldn't be in the shape it is now if America had different politics for example as they wouldn't have overthrown Mossadegh? And why is it that if the US has different politics suddenly you have to let Iran overwhelm Israel, are the only options ethnic cleansing or being ethnically cleansed? Couldn't they have different politics in that they don't let Israel ethnically cleanse Palestine, but also not let them get ethnically cleansed by Iran?
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On November 08 2024 10:39 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 10:06 Billyboy wrote:On November 07 2024 16:37 Nebuchad wrote:On November 07 2024 10:35 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 01:25 Nebuchad wrote:
Palestine is fucked but that was already true before, not much has changed. I hope we are efficient in telling all the liberals who will suddenly remember that genocide is bad to fuck off. This reads like a tacit admission that you, too, think that US politics are more important than the genocide. They are yeah. If american politics were different the genocide couldn't take place. Is it your position that if American politics were different there would be peace where all get along? Or that Iran's proxies would quickly overwhelm Israel and ethnically cleanse all that live there bringing peace? No I think people would still probably go into wars if american politics were different. Difficult to answer the second question without insulting your intelligence, maybe Iran wouldn't be in the shape it is now if America had different politics for example as they wouldn't have overthrown Mossadegh? And why is it that if the US has different politics suddenly you have to let Iran overwhelm Israel, are the only options ethnic cleansing or being ethnically cleansed? Couldn't they have different politics in that they don't let Israel ethnically cleanse Palestine, but also not let them get ethnically cleansed by Iran?
Aye there is that let’s be kind and say ‘awkward’ element of the US’ history in involving themselves in Iranian affairs historically.
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On November 08 2024 10:39 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 10:06 Billyboy wrote:On November 07 2024 16:37 Nebuchad wrote:On November 07 2024 10:35 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 01:25 Nebuchad wrote:
Palestine is fucked but that was already true before, not much has changed. I hope we are efficient in telling all the liberals who will suddenly remember that genocide is bad to fuck off. This reads like a tacit admission that you, too, think that US politics are more important than the genocide. They are yeah. If american politics were different the genocide couldn't take place. Is it your position that if American politics were different there would be peace where all get along? Or that Iran's proxies would quickly overwhelm Israel and ethnically cleanse all that live there bringing peace? No I think people would still probably go into wars if american politics were different. Difficult to answer the second question without insulting your intelligence, maybe Iran wouldn't be in the shape it is now if America had different politics for example as they wouldn't have overthrown Mossadegh? And why is it that if the US has different politics suddenly you have to let Iran overwhelm Israel, are the only options ethnic cleansing or being ethnically cleansed? Couldn't they have different politics in that they don't let Israel ethnically cleanse Palestine, but also not let them get ethnically cleansed by Iran?
Oh you are talking about historically? Well you have a lot of people you can blame along with the US in that regard. I assumed since there was a big historic current event you were talking about what could happen currently and given your position I assumed you meant taking all the weapons back or something. Since that is the only thing that would stop the war in certainty.
I also think it is weird that people pretend they know how effective or ineffective diplomacy is. We have no idea what is being said or what the impact is.
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Violence in Amsterdam last night after a football match.
As far as I can tell it was a series of events that played out like this:
1: The night before the match, a section of Maccabi fans were chanting 'End the arabs!', tearing down Palestinian flags and going around looking for fights.
2: At the match, Maccabi fans again were racist chanting and refused to take part in a minute's silence for Spanish victims of flooding.
3: After the match, Amsterdam locals and pro Palestine protesters were out looking for any Maccabi fans they could find and kicking their heads in.
A few observations:
- I reckon none of the people caught up in the violence were the people who traveled just to cause trouble. It almost certainly was just normal football fans who ended up getting beaten up.
- People who do go to foreign countries looking for trouble deserve everything they get. I can't get my head around that kind of behaviour
- I didn't realise Israel had such a huge problem, but apparently Kick It Out (the main anti-racism organisation in football) did a survey and found that Maccabi supporters were the second worst in Europe for racist chanting, the worst being Bethlehem.
The whole thing is like a microcosm of the problems in the Middle East, and its always innocents that suffer the brunt of the problems caused by racism.
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On November 08 2024 21:54 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 10:39 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2024 10:06 Billyboy wrote:On November 07 2024 16:37 Nebuchad wrote:On November 07 2024 10:35 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 01:25 Nebuchad wrote:
Palestine is fucked but that was already true before, not much has changed. I hope we are efficient in telling all the liberals who will suddenly remember that genocide is bad to fuck off. This reads like a tacit admission that you, too, think that US politics are more important than the genocide. They are yeah. If american politics were different the genocide couldn't take place. Is it your position that if American politics were different there would be peace where all get along? Or that Iran's proxies would quickly overwhelm Israel and ethnically cleanse all that live there bringing peace? No I think people would still probably go into wars if american politics were different. Difficult to answer the second question without insulting your intelligence, maybe Iran wouldn't be in the shape it is now if America had different politics for example as they wouldn't have overthrown Mossadegh? And why is it that if the US has different politics suddenly you have to let Iran overwhelm Israel, are the only options ethnic cleansing or being ethnically cleansed? Couldn't they have different politics in that they don't let Israel ethnically cleanse Palestine, but also not let them get ethnically cleansed by Iran? Oh you are talking about historically? Well you have a lot of people you can blame along with the US in that regard. I assumed since there was a big historic current event you were talking about what could happen currently and given your position I assumed you meant taking all the weapons back or something. Since that is the only thing that would stop the war in certainty. I also think it is weird that people pretend they know how effective or ineffective diplomacy is. We have no idea what is being said or what the impact is.
As you can see I also addressed the current time in my post, with this sentence: "And why is it that if the US has different politics suddenly you have to let Iran overwhelm Israel, are the only options ethnic cleansing or being ethnically cleansed? Couldn't they have different politics in that they don't let Israel ethnically cleanse Palestine, but also not let them get ethnically cleansed by Iran?"
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On November 08 2024 21:54 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 10:39 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2024 10:06 Billyboy wrote:On November 07 2024 16:37 Nebuchad wrote:On November 07 2024 10:35 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 01:25 Nebuchad wrote:
Palestine is fucked but that was already true before, not much has changed. I hope we are efficient in telling all the liberals who will suddenly remember that genocide is bad to fuck off. This reads like a tacit admission that you, too, think that US politics are more important than the genocide. They are yeah. If american politics were different the genocide couldn't take place. Is it your position that if American politics were different there would be peace where all get along? Or that Iran's proxies would quickly overwhelm Israel and ethnically cleanse all that live there bringing peace? No I think people would still probably go into wars if american politics were different. Difficult to answer the second question without insulting your intelligence, maybe Iran wouldn't be in the shape it is now if America had different politics for example as they wouldn't have overthrown Mossadegh? And why is it that if the US has different politics suddenly you have to let Iran overwhelm Israel, are the only options ethnic cleansing or being ethnically cleansed? Couldn't they have different politics in that they don't let Israel ethnically cleanse Palestine, but also not let them get ethnically cleansed by Iran? Oh you are talking about historically? Well you have a lot of people you can blame along with the US in that regard. I assumed since there was a big historic current event you were talking about what could happen currently and given your position I assumed you meant taking all the weapons back or something. Since that is the only thing that would stop the war in certainty. I also think it is weird that people pretend they know how effective or ineffective diplomacy is. We have no idea what is being said or what the impact is.
Certainly agree on diplomacy being something of a black box, and without being privy to information and passing judgement nonetheless.
On the flip side I don’t think it takes too much of a leap in judgement to look a more avowedly pro-Israel Trump, who Netanyahu described as Israel’s greatest ever friend in that office, and somewhat predict the direction of travel. Or Netanyahu firing Gallant just before Trump was elected.
At least as it pertains to the localised Israel-Palestine conflict anyway. How that will look like moving forwards is as good as settled in my mind, and I’ll be a happy man if I’m wrong.
I think the open question is on a wider regional escalation and if that can be nipped in the bud or expand. All sorts of things could happen here.
Hell I think there’s a universe where Trump goes hardball on Iran in a way perhaps Harris might not have considered and it actually works in pulling things back. Or a universe it doesn’t, or a universe where he doesn’t do that. Etc etc
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On November 08 2024 23:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 21:54 Billyboy wrote:On November 08 2024 10:39 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2024 10:06 Billyboy wrote:On November 07 2024 16:37 Nebuchad wrote:On November 07 2024 10:35 Turbovolver wrote:On November 07 2024 01:25 Nebuchad wrote:
Palestine is fucked but that was already true before, not much has changed. I hope we are efficient in telling all the liberals who will suddenly remember that genocide is bad to fuck off. This reads like a tacit admission that you, too, think that US politics are more important than the genocide. They are yeah. If american politics were different the genocide couldn't take place. Is it your position that if American politics were different there would be peace where all get along? Or that Iran's proxies would quickly overwhelm Israel and ethnically cleanse all that live there bringing peace? No I think people would still probably go into wars if american politics were different. Difficult to answer the second question without insulting your intelligence, maybe Iran wouldn't be in the shape it is now if America had different politics for example as they wouldn't have overthrown Mossadegh? And why is it that if the US has different politics suddenly you have to let Iran overwhelm Israel, are the only options ethnic cleansing or being ethnically cleansed? Couldn't they have different politics in that they don't let Israel ethnically cleanse Palestine, but also not let them get ethnically cleansed by Iran? Oh you are talking about historically? Well you have a lot of people you can blame along with the US in that regard. I assumed since there was a big historic current event you were talking about what could happen currently and given your position I assumed you meant taking all the weapons back or something. Since that is the only thing that would stop the war in certainty. I also think it is weird that people pretend they know how effective or ineffective diplomacy is. We have no idea what is being said or what the impact is. Certainly agree on diplomacy being something of a black box, and without being privy to information and passing judgement nonetheless. On the flip side I don’t think it takes too much of a leap in judgement to look a more avowedly pro-Israel Trump, who Netanyahu described as Israel’s greatest ever friend in that office, and somewhat predict the direction of travel. Or Netanyahu firing Gallant just before Trump was elected. At least as it pertains to the localised Israel-Palestine conflict anyway. How that will look like moving forwards is as good as settled in my mind, and I’ll be a happy man if I’m wrong. I think the open question is on a wider regional escalation and if that can be nipped in the bud or expand. All sorts of things could happen here. Hell I think there’s a universe where Trump goes hardball on Iran in a way perhaps Harris might not have considered and it actually works in pulling things back. Or a universe it doesn’t, or a universe where he doesn’t do that. Etc etc
I would agree that Trump himself will be terrible, it kind of is his thing. Like you said there is a chance he puts someone competent in and it gets better. More likely though it continues to be a unsolvable disaster that gets worse for the people who are not ultra rich and powerful.
But I'd be happy to wrong and have Trump solve it in a day, lets check back on like the 10th of January to give him a few days to also "solve" Ukraine and Russia.
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Deporting citizens to a warzone you have also ethnically cleansed down to a smaller territory that's largely just ruble is fucking indescribably fucked up.
Sure Trump is going to love trying that idea out. So much for all the 'It's not ethnic cleansing/genocide look at the arab Israelis" dipshittery
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Here is the whole story on the football bullshit. It includes what you posted, but also all the anti-Semitic chanting and the loads of violence that happened. Hopefully you know about this and are not only reading super biased sources but who knows.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amsterdam-clashes-football-israeli-1.7377872
The UN has calculated that 70% of the casualties in the first 6 months of the war are Women and Children.
The 8,119 victims verified is a much lower number than the toll of more than 43,000 provided by Palestinian health authorities for the 13-month-old war. But the UN breakdown of the victims' age and gender backs the Palestinian assertion that women and children represent a large portion of those killed in the war.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/un-gaza-casualties-1.7377967
The whole 32 page report is included, it is not a fun read.
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On November 09 2024 03:15 Billyboy wrote:Here is the whole story on the football bullshit. It includes what you posted, but also all the anti-Semitic chanting and the loads of violence that happened. Hopefully you know about this and are not only reading super biased sources but who knows. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amsterdam-clashes-football-israeli-1.7377872The UN has calculated that 70% of the casualties in the first 6 months of the war are Women and Children. Show nested quote +The 8,119 victims verified is a much lower number than the toll of more than 43,000 provided by Palestinian health authorities for the 13-month-old war. But the UN breakdown of the victims' age and gender backs the Palestinian assertion that women and children represent a large portion of those killed in the war. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/un-gaza-casualties-1.7377967The whole 32 page report is included, it is not a fun read.
Lets see how Premo defends that now. Clearly all those children were Hamas childsoldiers.
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No mention of antisemitic chanting in the article you linked.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On November 09 2024 03:15 Billyboy wrote:Here is the whole story on the football bullshit. It includes what you posted, but also all the anti-Semitic chanting and the loads of violence that happened. Hopefully you know about this and are not only reading super biased sources but who knows. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amsterdam-clashes-football-israeli-1.7377872The UN has calculated that 70% of the casualties in the first 6 months of the war are Women and Children. Show nested quote +The 8,119 victims verified is a much lower number than the toll of more than 43,000 provided by Palestinian health authorities for the 13-month-old war. But the UN breakdown of the victims' age and gender backs the Palestinian assertion that women and children represent a large portion of those killed in the war. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/un-gaza-casualties-1.7377967The whole 32 page report is included, it is not a fun read.
It seems very tit-for-tat
I don’t like the Dutch PM’s statement at all. I think there’s a way to articulate that antagonistic political chanting and other behaviours from both sides isn’t desirable. Or indeed said, look lads, fucking wise up. We’re a free country, don’t go dandering around beating people up over differences of political opinion.
I said it at the time in the UK when we had some protests, I think there’s a legitimate and worrying rise in anti-Semitism. However, as (seemingly) per this example, our government at the time really focused on that to the exclusion other pertinent factors.
I don’t think it’s accurate, I also don’t think it’s productive. I think it actually actively increases anti-Semitic sentiment.
It doesn’t preclude being forceful on challenging anti-Semitism at all. You can still call it out forcefully
Of course, small fry compared to that UN report in the grander scheme of things. Shall read properly later
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On November 09 2024 04:13 Nebuchad wrote:No mention of antisemitic chanting in the article you linked.
You are write, just this
Videos circulating on social media showed riot police intervening in street clashes, with some attackers shouting anti-Israeli slurs.
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles.
Amsterdam Mayor Femke Halsema said Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters were "attacked, abused and pelted with fireworks" by what she described as "antisemitic hit-and-run squads," and that riot police had to intervene several times to protect them and escort them to hotels.
For context She was previously in the house of representatives for the leftist greenparty GroenLinks. And not Jewish, if that matters.
Dutch historian Bart Wallet included Femke Halsema in a chapter on contemporary Dutch Jewry in an entirely revised edition (2017) of “Geschiedenis van de joden in Nederland" ("History of the Jews in the Netherlands").[9] But after some genealogical research in 2020 Wallet published an article in the Dutch Jewish internet magazine Jonet "Waarom Femke Halsema toch niet joods is" ("Why Femke Halsema is not Jewish after all"), admitting his mistake, indicating he will correct this in the next edition of this book.[10] The article was reprinted in the Dutch Nieuw Israëlitisch Weekblad (New Israelitic Weekly).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femke_Halsema
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On November 09 2024 04:18 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 03:15 Billyboy wrote:Here is the whole story on the football bullshit. It includes what you posted, but also all the anti-Semitic chanting and the loads of violence that happened. Hopefully you know about this and are not only reading super biased sources but who knows. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amsterdam-clashes-football-israeli-1.7377872The UN has calculated that 70% of the casualties in the first 6 months of the war are Women and Children. The 8,119 victims verified is a much lower number than the toll of more than 43,000 provided by Palestinian health authorities for the 13-month-old war. But the UN breakdown of the victims' age and gender backs the Palestinian assertion that women and children represent a large portion of those killed in the war. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/un-gaza-casualties-1.7377967The whole 32 page report is included, it is not a fun read. It seems very tit-for-tat I don’t like the Dutch PM’s statement at all. I think there’s a way to articulate that antagonistic political chanting and other behaviours from both sides isn’t desirable. Or indeed said, look lads, fucking wise up. We’re a free country, don’t go dandering around beating people up over differences of political opinion. I said it at the time in the UK when we had some protests, I think there’s a legitimate and worrying rise in anti-Semitism. However, as (seemingly) per this example, our government at the time really focused on that to the exclusion other pertinent factors. I don’t think it’s accurate, I also don’t think it’s productive. I think it actually actively increases anti-Semitic sentiment. It doesn’t preclude being forceful on challenging anti-Semitism at all. You can still call it out forcefully Of course, small fry compared to that UN report in the grander scheme of things. Shall read properly later
The saying shit part is tit for tat perhaps. The violence part is extremely one sided.
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On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles.
Either way that wouldn't be a chant.
I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On November 09 2024 05:01 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 04:18 WombaT wrote:On November 09 2024 03:15 Billyboy wrote:Here is the whole story on the football bullshit. It includes what you posted, but also all the anti-Semitic chanting and the loads of violence that happened. Hopefully you know about this and are not only reading super biased sources but who knows. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amsterdam-clashes-football-israeli-1.7377872The UN has calculated that 70% of the casualties in the first 6 months of the war are Women and Children. The 8,119 victims verified is a much lower number than the toll of more than 43,000 provided by Palestinian health authorities for the 13-month-old war. But the UN breakdown of the victims' age and gender backs the Palestinian assertion that women and children represent a large portion of those killed in the war. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/un-gaza-casualties-1.7377967The whole 32 page report is included, it is not a fun read. It seems very tit-for-tat I don’t like the Dutch PM’s statement at all. I think there’s a way to articulate that antagonistic political chanting and other behaviours from both sides isn’t desirable. Or indeed said, look lads, fucking wise up. We’re a free country, don’t go dandering around beating people up over differences of political opinion. I said it at the time in the UK when we had some protests, I think there’s a legitimate and worrying rise in anti-Semitism. However, as (seemingly) per this example, our government at the time really focused on that to the exclusion other pertinent factors. I don’t think it’s accurate, I also don’t think it’s productive. I think it actually actively increases anti-Semitic sentiment. It doesn’t preclude being forceful on challenging anti-Semitism at all. You can still call it out forcefully Of course, small fry compared to that UN report in the grander scheme of things. Shall read properly later The saying shit part is tit for tat perhaps. The violence part is extremely one sided.
I’ll assume it is, for sake of argument. I find it takes a while for the actual narrative to be established in such things, in the close aftermath both sides of a dispute tend to grossly misrepresent things through selective videos on the likes of Twitter etc.
It’s also entirely possible to travel as a group to another country, in a city with a decently sized Muslim population and not say inflammatory shit about bombing people they feel some kinship with.
Or booing a minute’s silence for Spanish flood victims.
Does it merit people, including those who actually didn’t partake in such activities getting their head kicked in? Sure no.
Were anti-Semites part of the head kicking crew? Almost certainly.
Inherently anti-Semitic? Well I don’t know either way.
It’s not uncommon within European football culture for various nationalistic ultras to fuck around and find out as it were.
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On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans.
My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated.
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On November 09 2024 09:22 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2024 05:13 Nebuchad wrote:On November 09 2024 05:00 Billyboy wrote:
I don't really want to look up the hateful videos to see if the "anti-Israeli slurs" include anti-Semitism. But I would be willing to if you want to be bet some ban time or sig on the outcome. I'd be on the side of anti-Semitism being in the chants, and to make any bet fear I have seen them described as anti-Semitic in other articles. Either way that wouldn't be a chant. I don't want to do a ban bet with you because it doesn't seem that you have too much trouble coming back from bans. My apologies, I didn't know "chant" was your issue. It very well could have just been slogans they were saying while beating up and hitting with cars the people they hated.
Apology accepted, it's always good if we can make sure misinformation doesn't spread
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