EPTThat same situation strictly doesn't apply to Palestinians. Their circumstances are completely different as they're actually being oppressed and they have perfectly valid reasons to hate Israel. It's breeding ground for radicalization. They won't just stop resisting.
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 155
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
That same situation strictly doesn't apply to Palestinians. Their circumstances are completely different as they're actually being oppressed and they have perfectly valid reasons to hate Israel. It's breeding ground for radicalization. They won't just stop resisting. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17751 Posts
On December 11 2023 03:53 Cricketer12 wrote: Biden has been a staunch supporter of Israel in US government for over 30 years now. I don't see why things would change now. I do not think Biden has the power within the democratic party to set foreign policy. Biden is a supporter of Israel because the Democratic party is a supporter of Israel. Some people reverse cause and effect here. The democratic party policy is the cause. Biden's stance on Israel is the effect. Biden may possibly have had the power to be a contributing factor to the party's foriegn policy platform in the past. On December 11 2023 07:40 Magic Powers wrote: Germany wasn't oppressed before or after WW2. Germans by and large also didn't consider themselves oppressed, although victim narratives of course continued to be spun until long after the war, but that had little effect on the population at large. People wanted to continue their lives and put the war behind them. It was a nightmare that they wanted to end. It was therefore relatively easy to deradicalize the country as there wasn't enough fertile ground for another Nazi uprising. You do not consider the germans in east germany oppressed from 1945 until the Berlin wall went down? i think the east germans lived under an oppressive regime. On December 11 2023 07:40 Magic Powers wrote: That same situation strictly doesn't apply to Palestinians. Their circumstances are completely different as they're actually being oppressed and they have perfectly valid reasons to hate Israel. It's breeding ground for radicalization. They won't just stop resisting. They can move to Canada though. East Germans could not leave. The Berlin Wall: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Berlin-Wall | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 11 2023 08:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I do not think Biden has the power within the democratic party to set foreign policy. Biden is a supporter of Israel because the Democratic party is a supporter of Israel. Some people reverse cause and effect here. The democratic party policy is the cause. Biden's stance on Israel is the effect. Biden may possibly have had the power to be a contributing factor to the party's foriegn policy platform in the past. You do not consider the germans in east germany oppressed from 1945 until the Berlin wall went down? i think the east germans lived under an oppressive regime. They can move to Canada though. East Germans could not leave. The Berlin Wall: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Berlin-Wall East Germans resisted using violent means against the Soviet Union. Did you think they just lied down and accepted their fate? And no, Palestinians can't just leave. But I know how you think about people's option of "just leaving" from another thread. Your view is that it's just a matter of getting up and walking to another place. Easy. That's not at all the situation for Palestinians. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17751 Posts
On December 11 2023 07:40 Magic Powers wrote: Germany wasn't oppressed before or after WW2. Germans by and large also didn't consider themselves oppressed, although victim narratives of course continued to be spun until long after the war, but that had little effect on the population at large. On December 11 2023 07:40 Magic Powers wrote: East Germans resisted using violent means against the Soviet Union. Did you think they just lied down and accepted their fate? cool, so you are now retracting your previous comment that Germany wasn't oppressed after WW2? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17751 Posts
On December 11 2023 08:59 Magic Powers wrote: And no, Palestinians can't just leave. But I know how you think about people's option of "just leaving" from another thread. Your view is that it's just a matter of getting up and walking to another place. Easy. That's not at all the situation for Palestinians. there are 44,000 palestinians in Canada including Palestinians who left after October 7. Palestinians have options East Germans did not. Even 1 person escaping from any where behind the iron curtain was a giant deal worthy of front page headlines. Check out the case of Alexander Mogilny. On December 11 2023 08:59 Magic Powers wrote: Your view is that it's just a matter of getting up and walking to another place. Easy. I grew up in a city filled with hundreds of thousands of people who left their country of birth because conditions were very bad. For most of them it was not easy. It was not easy for my family. It would not be easy for a Palestinian to move to Canada. its not easy for the tens of thousands that are in Canada right now. However, if one wants a high quality life and one was not born in a very very good situation one changes countries, learns a new language and new culture. Things are tough all over. Palestinian women prolly do not have the agency of palestinian men. That's not on Israel though. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 11 2023 09:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: cool, so you are now retracting your previous comment that Germany wasn't oppressed after WW2? Do you even follow the discussion? The point was that Germany didn't need much deradicalization after WW2. Wtf is even your point? Also, I don't care one bit about your objectivist Ayn Rand nonsense. "Just up and leave" is your philosophy, not mine. | ||
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Razyda
1058 Posts
On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote: This depends upon the living situation of the criminal. I think a working poor or homeless guy stealing food from a grocery store might not be a criminal if he lives in a rich first world country. This is especially true in first world countries where food prices have skyrocketed far and above the rate of inflation as the grocery store chain owner become a billionaire. I think there is an argument to be made that the billionaire grocery store chain owner is the criminal. If you want to become a billionaire by selling $200,000 cars and video games then fine. That's all luxury BS. You want to become a billionaire by cranking up the price of food while the local supermarkets are closed by government law due to covid? That's criminal... not the poor guy stealing the very expensive, artificially high priced food. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. On December 11 2023 08:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I do not think Biden has the power within the democratic party to set foreign policy. Biden is a supporter of Israel because the Democratic party is a supporter of Israel. Some people reverse cause and effect here. The democratic party policy is the cause. Biden's stance on Israel is the effect. Biden may possibly have had the power to be a contributing factor to the party's foriegn policy platform in the past. You do not consider the germans in east germany oppressed from 1945 until the Berlin wall went down? i think the east germans lived under an oppressive regime. They can move to Canada though. East Germans could not leave. The Berlin Wall: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Berlin-Wall It would be nice if you had some basic info before starting comparing Palestine, or anything else really to DDR. Bolded: I can assure you that I meet quite a lot of DDR citizens in both Poland and Czechoslovakia. They were killed trying to illegally cross the border with West Germany (whether legality of it was moral, justified, right, or whatever, is quite irrelevant) Oppression in former Warsaw Pact countries was more of internal thing going from government (heavily influenced by CCCP) and its structures. It wasn't something what would radicalize people (or maybe more correct would be saying that it didnt last long enough to cause enough suffering to radicalize people). | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18412 Posts
On December 11 2023 09:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: cool, so you are now retracting your previous comment that Germany wasn't oppressed after WW2? When Mohdoo draws a parallel to how you didn't need to remove all the Nazis from Germany to remove them as a political factor, he could be referring to either West or East Germany. People responded as if he was talking about West Germany, so that is covered, but let's assume he is talking about how Nazis were removed from power in East Germany. The Soviets subsequently did a pretty bang-up job of "denazifying" East Germany, jailing somewhere around 200k political prisoners. They also built a totalitarian surveillance state with the Stasi policing for nazi sympathizers. None of that worked nearly as well as the West German policy of forgiveness and memory in banishing Nazism to the annals of history, and one of the problems in East Germany after the reunification was the emergence of neo-nazis as a (local) political power. So yeah, we can assume Mohdoo was talking about West Germany, because the post-war reconciliation and defanging of Nazi power through discussion and remembrance worked, whereas East Germany's attempt at the utter obliteration of Nazism through violence didn't. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
What a thought. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17751 Posts
On December 11 2023 10:03 Magic Powers wrote: Do you even follow the discussion? The point was that Germany didn't need much deradicalization after WW2. Wtf is even your point? i made my point. East Germans were oppressed after WW2 from 1945 to the fall of the Berlin Wall. You read that right?You have neither agreed nor disagreed. You just keep rambling on about other things. Here is your statement again. On December 11 2023 07:40 Magic Powers wrote: Germany wasn't oppressed before or after WW2. Germans by and large also didn't consider themselves oppressed, although victim narratives of course continued to be spun until long after the war, but that had little effect on the population at large. East Germans were oppressed from 1945 to the fall of the Berlin Wall ~1990. On December 11 2023 12:48 Salazarz wrote: Imagine thinking that an oppressed, destitute peoples in a territory that doesn't have a single air or sea port can just move to Canada as a solution to their oppression. What a thought. thousands of palestinians have done so. many did it after October 7. they are now safe in Canada. Generally speaking, millions moved to Canada... learned a new language , new culture and improved their lives. millions. Contrast this with East Germany and the Soviet Union. 1 guy gets out and its international headlines. On December 11 2023 10:03 Magic Powers wrote: Also, I don't care one bit about your objectivist Ayn Rand nonsense. "Just up and leave" is your philosophy, not mine. The wandering jew trope? really? LOL. it is a practical reality not a theoretical philosophy. in some fantasy world would i prefer to live in Israel. sure. it is not practical. So I live in NA. And this is not some crazy option. Many tens of thousands of Palestinians live in NA and I think more Jews live in NA than live in Israel. Its a viable option. Also, I'm not an objectivist. Miss Rand is a literary genius though.  EDIT: 8 million jews in NA. more than in Israel. 200,000 Palestinians in NA. I think my relatives living in Israel are making a bad move. They should be in NA. I'm in favour of the Jews leaving Israel completely. That opinion is a very niche one though. But, saying "move to a country that is better" ... hell that is the most common sense and practical pragmatic thing. North America is filled with people from all walks of life who've made that decision. 10s of millions have done it. maybe 100s of millions? 600,000 muslims live in the Greater Toronto Area. 100,000 Jews live in the Greater Toronto area. So moving to Canada is not some pie in the sky miracle. It is a viable path. Here is what i said BEFORE the bus stop attack. Terrorist Attack Kills 3 On November 28 2023 06:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote: any jew living in israel must be prepared to pay the ultimate price. is that fair? prolly not. it is , however, the reality of the situation. This is why I advise my relatives to leave Israel. It is important to see i said it BEFORE the killings. This is not the end. More innocent civilian lives will be lost. If you can: GTFO. As soon as you can: GTFO. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
Palestinians? Just go to Canada. Uyghurs? Go to Canada. Yemenis? To Canada. Ukrainians? Believe or not, straight to Canada. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
This will be my last response to you regardless of whether or not you understand a word of what I'm saying. The argument is about the post-WW2 deradicalization of Germany from the extremist Nazi ideology. The argument is about whether or not oppression breeds radicalism. For this purpose we can compare Germans and Palestinians. In the case of Nazi Germany, there was no oppression. The Nazis had no oppressor and yet they existed regardless and their ideology spread regardless. Their ideology had no basis in reality, the "parasitic Jew" was entirely made up. The "parasitic Jew" never existed. For this reason we can argue that Germans had no more reason to follow the Nazi ideology post-WW2, because the Nazis had been defeated. With the Nazis being hunted down and prosecuted across the globe, many of them being found guilty in a fair trial, the Germans at large had no reason to continue to follow the extremist Nazi ideology. They wanted to live their lives free from oppression. And, as it was so obvious that the "parasitic Jew" was nothing but a Nazi fantasy, the Germans were indeed free from oppression, and so they didn't have any reason to continue following the Nazi ideology (edit: I'm repeating myself here, not my finest work of art). This is the point where you hop in with your completely nonsensical argument: "but the East Germans were oppressed". Irrelevant. We were talking about a justification for continuing to be Nazis. The justification was that of the "parasitic Jews" in the Nazi ideology. It wasn't based on post-WW2 East German occupation by the Soviet Union. If this doesn't make things clear to you, then I have no interest in trying again to show to you why Palestinians have a reason to remain radicalized and Germans didn't. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States14000 Posts
On December 11 2023 06:46 Mohdoo wrote: Sure, all of this is reasonable and I agree, but there's 1 small detail I am still not understanding. It feels like based on your phrasing, you view Hamas surrendering as a non-zero bargaining chip and that Gaza would be losing something by making that concession. Maybe I am misreading, but you indicating it would need to be accompanied with some sort of concrete reduction in Israeli aggression leads me to believe Gaza would be losing something. But it also feels like you agree Hamas is strictly negative in all ways. To be more direct: Why would a resident of Gaza not want Hamas to surrender prior to any concessions by Israel? Why would they want Hamas to stick around longer? Purely from the perspective of "IDF killed" vs "Gaza killed", it feels like Gaza is incentivized to basically surrender in any possible way. Every day that goes by is 1000000x worse for Gaza than Israel. So in the absence of a benefit from Hamas, why is it not purely beneficial to Gaza for Hamas to surrender? Am I misunderstanding? It feels like the gist of what you're saying is that it would need to be accompanied with something from Israel in order to be worthwhile. I'm not understanding why that is. That's a fair question, and while I'm not necessarily of the opinion that Gaza would be losing something, my understanding (though admittedly not perfect) is Gazans on the whole see it differently. Which isn't necessarily to imply all of Gaza views Hamas positively, though jo doubt there are many who do, rather it is a case of "why do I owe my oppressor anything". It is less to do with if Hamas has value worth bargaining over and more so why should Israel be bargained with at this stage. This leads to the problem we have now where Hamas continually exists, putting Israeli and Gazan lives at risk. Someone needs to do something to change up the equation. In this situation, my personal opinion is Israel needs to take the first step because Gaza has less power and authority in the dynamic. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 11 2023 23:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Another war crime... supplied by the US. https://twitter.com/John_Hudson/status/1734209964195880981 I'll add this to the list of potential war crimes. Waiting for confirmation first. Unfortunately WashingtonPost isn't very reputable. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On December 11 2023 07:16 Mohdoo wrote: The goal was never to eliminate Hamas such that 0 people identify with the organization or ideology: that’s permanent and forever. Still plenty of nazis in the world etc Similar to Nazi germany, it isn’t necessary to make sure all people with those thoughts no longer breathe. Germany has had plenty of Nazis running around ever since ww2 but it’s not an issue because they don’t control land and they don’t have any real ability to conduct military strikes. I want to be abundantly clear that the whole idea of erasing the ideology entirely is not a real goal of anyone. It’s not feasible or reasonable. And it’s not necessary. It is 1000000% totally possible and realistic for Israel to remove Hamas as a governing body of Gaza by preventing them from being able to operate anywhere. The issue is that Hamas controls land. Please note that it’s annoying and cumbersome to specify this detail every time I post. I don’t mean you’re annoying me in any way, but specifying I am not going to go to this length to specify this in the future. I think all subsequent mentions of wiping out Hamas or whatever mean this instead. I will try to remember to say “Hamas land = 0” in the future, but if I forget, just assume I mean “removed from power” or something along those lines. If we still have this many flat earth folks, what hope do we have of wiping out any ideology? xd https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65917357.amp This kind news were already commons prior to the 10/07. The palestinians don't have to change, their opressors do. The israelis can murder any palestinians, even two years old without any consequence and I don't care if he haven't the intention of murdering the baby, he still shot on innocents without any consequences. Hamas has been the recipe of palestinian resistance since the failure of previous ideologies (arab nationalism, socialism, pan arabism), it would be the same if it was leftist ou rightist. The goal of Israel is not to destroy Hamas but to create conditions so atrocious he breaks the resistance and even the identity of palestinian people. This is exactly the same kind of deshumanization which happens during the shoah or most other genocide, the will to break a human being. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
https://www.reuters.com/world/eu-ministers-consider-next-steps-response-israel-hamas-war-2023-12-10/ | ||
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