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On November 04 2020 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2020 22:08 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 04 2020 22:03 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also the packaging. Talking of democratic socialism, revolution, and so, is fucking stupid. You win some millenials in New York or Washington DC at the price of scaring the hell out of the dozens millions people that have grown up being told socialism was the devil.
Progressives should keep their agenda just as it is, not change a single idea, but start selling it without painting a giant target on their own back for absolutely no reason.
I think, honestly, that with his primaries rhetoric, Sanders would have been steamrolled, while his ideas are in themselves probably quite popular.
A bit of introspection and rethinking, and progressives can push their ideas forward and win. Unfortunately, most of what I have heard is about how the establishment is mean and so on. That doesn't win elections. They need to sell their policies and convince the country. Actually exactly that wins you elections... Trump did it 4 years ago and almost did/does it again this year. If it did, Sanders would have won. Twice. The left is not the right. You can't go full populist and bullshit your way with inflammatory rhetoric. And that's a good thing. Trump is NOT a model to follow. Sanders never had the chance to challenge a republican? He was always stopped by the elitist democrats See, that's what I'm talking about. He lost because democratic leaning people voted against him. And there are lessons to get from that loss: namely how to convince those folks next time. Instead it's this kind of crap, and the same thing will happen next time, because we have learnt nothing.
Pretending they didn't steal Iowa from him doesn't help.
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On November 04 2020 22:08 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2020 22:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 04 2020 22:03 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also the packaging. Talking of democratic socialism, revolution, and so, is fucking stupid. You win some millenials in New York or Washington DC at the price of scaring the hell out of the dozens millions people that have grown up being told socialism was the devil.
Progressives should keep their agenda just as it is, not change a single idea, but start selling it without painting a giant target on their own back for absolutely no reason.
I think, honestly, that with his primaries rhetoric, Sanders would have been steamrolled, while his ideas are in themselves probably quite popular.
A bit of introspection and rethinking, and progressives can push their ideas forward and win. Unfortunately, most of what I have heard is about how the establishment is mean and so on. That doesn't win elections. They need to sell their policies and convince the country. Actually exactly that wins you elections... Trump did it 4 years ago and almost did/does it again this year. If it did, Sanders would have won. Twice. The left is not the right. You can't go full populist and bullshit your way with inflammatory rhetoric. And that's a good thing. Trump is NOT a model to follow. Sanders never had the chance to challenge a republican? He was always stopped by the elitist democrats If Bernie can't convince the Democrats to vote for him, how on earth is going to win a general election?
Will all the people that don't vote in primaries suddenly come out of the woodwork and vote?
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On November 04 2020 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2020 22:08 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 04 2020 22:03 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also the packaging. Talking of democratic socialism, revolution, and so, is fucking stupid. You win some millenials in New York or Washington DC at the price of scaring the hell out of the dozens millions people that have grown up being told socialism was the devil.
Progressives should keep their agenda just as it is, not change a single idea, but start selling it without painting a giant target on their own back for absolutely no reason.
I think, honestly, that with his primaries rhetoric, Sanders would have been steamrolled, while his ideas are in themselves probably quite popular.
A bit of introspection and rethinking, and progressives can push their ideas forward and win. Unfortunately, most of what I have heard is about how the establishment is mean and so on. That doesn't win elections. They need to sell their policies and convince the country. Actually exactly that wins you elections... Trump did it 4 years ago and almost did/does it again this year. If it did, Sanders would have won. Twice. The left is not the right. You can't go full populist and bullshit your way with inflammatory rhetoric. And that's a good thing. Trump is NOT a model to follow. Sanders never had the chance to challenge a republican? He was always stopped by the elitist democrats See, that's what I'm talking about. He lost because democratic leaning people voted against him. And there are lessons to get from that loss: namely how to convince those folks next time. Instead it's this kind of crap, and the same thing will happen next time, because we have learnt nothing.
Are you insinuating that Democrats would vote for Trump over Sanders?
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On November 04 2020 22:13 iamthedave wrote:
According to the odds makers Trump's a 2 to 1 favourite to win now.
That's weird. Isn't Biden quite a heavy favourite right now? Or have I missed something?
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Were the Lincoln Project Republican voters who now after 4 years finally realize Trump is too far, and feel comfortable voting for Biden a myth?
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On November 04 2020 22:15 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2020 22:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 04 2020 22:08 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 04 2020 22:03 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also the packaging. Talking of democratic socialism, revolution, and so, is fucking stupid. You win some millenials in New York or Washington DC at the price of scaring the hell out of the dozens millions people that have grown up being told socialism was the devil.
Progressives should keep their agenda just as it is, not change a single idea, but start selling it without painting a giant target on their own back for absolutely no reason.
I think, honestly, that with his primaries rhetoric, Sanders would have been steamrolled, while his ideas are in themselves probably quite popular.
A bit of introspection and rethinking, and progressives can push their ideas forward and win. Unfortunately, most of what I have heard is about how the establishment is mean and so on. That doesn't win elections. They need to sell their policies and convince the country. Actually exactly that wins you elections... Trump did it 4 years ago and almost did/does it again this year. If it did, Sanders would have won. Twice. The left is not the right. You can't go full populist and bullshit your way with inflammatory rhetoric. And that's a good thing. Trump is NOT a model to follow. Sanders never had the chance to challenge a republican? He was always stopped by the elitist democrats See, that's what I'm talking about. He lost because democratic leaning people voted against him. And there are lessons to get from that loss: namely how to convince those folks next time. Instead it's this kind of crap, and the same thing will happen next time, because we have learnt nothing. Are you insinuating that Democrats would vote for Trump over Sanders?
Yes, and I think that progressives vastly underestimate how many Biden voters would go to Trump.
Based on these election results, I just really don't have faith in the American electorate being made up of decent, respectable people, so count me a skeptic of progressive chances at this point.
Were the Lincoln Project Republican voters who now after 4 years finally realize Trump is too far, and feel comfortable voting for Biden a myth?
Considering that Biden heavily outperformed Clinton with a number of demographics (that didn't just rely on high turnout), I would say no, but the results still aren't great.
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On November 04 2020 22:17 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Were the Lincoln Project Republican voters who now after 4 years finally realize Trump is too far, and feel comfortable voting for Biden a myth?
Lincoln Project was a grift exploiting Democrats with more money than sense imo.
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On November 04 2020 22:17 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Were the Lincoln Project Republican voters who now after 4 years finally realize Trump is too far, and feel comfortable voting for Biden a myth?
For the most part yes, the Lincoln Project was basically nothing more than reputation laundering, I’d bet some of its prominent members voted Trump.
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Republicans don’t vote Democrat and vice versa.
This idea that the primary winner is the best candidate for the general presupposes that Democrats will vote Republican for some reason. We’re seeing first hand that party allegiance in the US is infinitely stronger than labels like socialist or fucking fascist.
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On November 04 2020 22:19 Zambrah wrote:
Republicans don’t vote Democrat and vice versa.
This idea that the primary winner is the best candidate for the general presupposes that Democrats will vote Republican for some reason. We’re seeing first hand that party allegiance in the US is infinitely stronger than labels like socialist or fucking fascist.
The logic you're trying to put forth necessarily concludes that the only difference in who wins is due to voter turnout.
At this point, this is verifiably false. It is objectively clear that many people voted differently than they did in 2016.
With this being the case, trying to persuade these flexible voters is obviously not a losing proposition, as Biden looks poised to win off the back of that very strategy.
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On November 04 2020 22:13 iamthedave wrote:
According to the odds makers Trump's a 2 to 1 favourite to win now.
That's definitely incorrect lol.
Anyways, Clinton beat Trump by about 3M votes, 66M to 63M.
Biden is likely to beat Trump by about the same margin, approximately 2-4M votes, depending on the last few days of mail-in ballot counting.
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On November 04 2020 22:17 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Were the Lincoln Project Republican voters who now after 4 years finally realize Trump is too far, and feel comfortable voting for Biden a myth? It is likely much to early now but comparing the numbers from 2016 to 2020 would be an interesting picture, just how many were turned off by Trump being Trump? based on how close the race is it would seem obviously not many, and not nearly enough but maybe they all came from the wrong places and therefor didn't matter in how close the race is?
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On November 04 2020 22:13 iamthedave wrote:
According to the odds makers Trump's a 2 to 1 favourite to win now.
What? I think Biden wins. Looks like he'll sweep MI, WI, and PA and have a shot at GA and he is also currently winning NV and AZ even though I think those two are Trumps best two shots, but losing the midwest basically dooms him.
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On November 04 2020 22:14 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2020 22:08 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 04 2020 22:03 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also the packaging. Talking of democratic socialism, revolution, and so, is fucking stupid. You win some millenials in New York or Washington DC at the price of scaring the hell out of the dozens millions people that have grown up being told socialism was the devil.
Progressives should keep their agenda just as it is, not change a single idea, but start selling it without painting a giant target on their own back for absolutely no reason.
I think, honestly, that with his primaries rhetoric, Sanders would have been steamrolled, while his ideas are in themselves probably quite popular.
A bit of introspection and rethinking, and progressives can push their ideas forward and win. Unfortunately, most of what I have heard is about how the establishment is mean and so on. That doesn't win elections. They need to sell their policies and convince the country. Actually exactly that wins you elections... Trump did it 4 years ago and almost did/does it again this year. If it did, Sanders would have won. Twice. The left is not the right. You can't go full populist and bullshit your way with inflammatory rhetoric. And that's a good thing. Trump is NOT a model to follow. Sanders never had the chance to challenge a republican? He was always stopped by the elitist democrats If Bernie can't convince the Democrats to vote for him, how on earth is going to win a general election? Will all the people that don't vote in primaries suddenly come out of the woodwork and vote?
The VP candidate got absolutely murdered in the primaries. Are you outraged about that?
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I suppose the Dem establishment was more afraid that a Bernie nomination would risk driving down Dem voter turnout.
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On November 04 2020 22:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2020 22:19 Zambrah wrote:
Republicans don’t vote Democrat and vice versa.
This idea that the primary winner is the best candidate for the general presupposes that Democrats will vote Republican for some reason. We’re seeing first hand that party allegiance in the US is infinitely stronger than labels like socialist or fucking fascist. The logic you're trying to put forth necessarily concludes that the only difference in who wins is due to voter turnout. At this point, this is verifiably false. It is objectively clear that many people voted differently than they did in 2016. With this being the case, trying to persuade these flexible voters is obviously not a losing proposition, as Biden looks poised to win off the back of that very strategy.
Poised to win in a nailbiter against one of the most unbelievably terrible presidents in American history.
This isn’t a win, this is a loss, even if Biden is president that it’s this close is a SHAMEFUL example of what should have been a slam dunk election being made close by relying on “flexible voters” instead of an Obama style campaign of enthusiasm.
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Well nobody seemed to tell Biden and Co. that as they spent over 200 million and touting all through the convention GOP speakers. Less republicans voted for Biden than they did for Clinton in 2016.
As for the Lincoln Project just like Claude Taylor they are grifters making an easy buck. Got paid $60 million to put up billboards in the GOP stronghold of... Manhattan.
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On November 04 2020 22:23 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2020 22:13 iamthedave wrote:
According to the odds makers Trump's a 2 to 1 favourite to win now. What? I think Biden wins. Looks like he'll sweep MI, WI, and PA and have a shot at GA and he is also currently winning NV and AZ even though I think those two are Trumps best two shots, but losing the midwest basically dooms him.
Biden has won Arizona.
With only mail-in ballots left to count in NV, WI, and MI, it's highly likely that he sweeps all three of those. NV is the biggest question mark.
If he does that, he's already won. Winning PA, GA, or NC will only be a buffer for him and would make his lead more durable against court cases and would also make him look a little better.
Poised to win in a nailbiter against one of the most unbelievably terrible presidents in American history.
This isn’t a win, this is a loss, even if Biden is president that it’s this close is a SHAMEFUL example of what should have been a slam dunk election being made close by relying on “flexible voters” instead of an Obama style campaign of enthusiasm.
Yes, everyone here agrees that this should have been an easy win if the Dems did their job well.
The problem is that we're basing this entirely on the fact that Trump is a horrible human being and an awful president. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually translate as real evidence concerning what would win in a hypothetical election between Trump and an actual progressive/charismatic message.
The bottom line here is that Biden's strategy does seem to have worked. What complicates things is that another candidate may have won even more handily, but we have no real evidence to use to be confident in that assertion. This means that there won't be any real persuasive power to push establishment Dems to give us a better shot next time around.
This is turning into the absolute worst-case win for Democrats; an incredibly weak win by the establishment that leaves us without Senate control but also positions the establishment to say, "Hey, we still beat Trump!" and keep progressives away from power.
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On November 04 2020 22:23 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2020 22:14 Gorsameth wrote:On November 04 2020 22:08 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 04 2020 22:03 sharkie wrote:On November 04 2020 22:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also the packaging. Talking of democratic socialism, revolution, and so, is fucking stupid. You win some millenials in New York or Washington DC at the price of scaring the hell out of the dozens millions people that have grown up being told socialism was the devil.
Progressives should keep their agenda just as it is, not change a single idea, but start selling it without painting a giant target on their own back for absolutely no reason.
I think, honestly, that with his primaries rhetoric, Sanders would have been steamrolled, while his ideas are in themselves probably quite popular.
A bit of introspection and rethinking, and progressives can push their ideas forward and win. Unfortunately, most of what I have heard is about how the establishment is mean and so on. That doesn't win elections. They need to sell their policies and convince the country. Actually exactly that wins you elections... Trump did it 4 years ago and almost did/does it again this year. If it did, Sanders would have won. Twice. The left is not the right. You can't go full populist and bullshit your way with inflammatory rhetoric. And that's a good thing. Trump is NOT a model to follow. Sanders never had the chance to challenge a republican? He was always stopped by the elitist democrats If Bernie can't convince the Democrats to vote for him, how on earth is going to win a general election? Will all the people that don't vote in primaries suddenly come out of the woodwork and vote? The VP candidate got absolutely murdered in the primaries. Are you outraged about that? I don't think the VP is nearly as relevant as people something like to think.
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Regardless of who wins this election, America has shown its wounds.
There is a very large portion of the American public that is uneducated and afraid of the world around them.To make them understand that they're being exploited by the very people they think are helping them you need to rebuild the entire nation's trust and actually explain that a 'fact' does indeed exist, that an unopinionated truth exists and are different from a political opinion. Not just on a social basis, but apparently there is also a deep need to reintroduce an understanding of the scientific method at an elementary level.
This is not a jab at intelligence, this is about a nation in fearful ignorance. Educators around America will need to choose their words carefully, step around the very vocabulary used in the media today, find a careful and neutral way of educating people of all ages on a neutral ground.
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EPT
