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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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Troutish
United States7 Posts
On November 06 2022 00:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Please name any anti-vaxxers in this thread who haven't been questioned or called out. Ah ok I see, I should've been clearer sorry. I meant out in the real world there's actual antivaxxers living without hindrance but sure, focus all ire on Mr BJ here. I don't see any productivity going on, just text walls at this one guy. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14107 Posts
On November 05 2022 21:52 WombaT wrote: ‘No one thinks chickenpox or measles or the flu are eradicated. If we thought that you wouldn't need to get the measles vaccine. You wouldn't need to get the chickenpox vaccine. But you got them anyway and if you'll have kids they'll get them it too.’ I didn’t challenge him on those posts because I don’t think he’s arguing that we could (especially currently) eliminate COVID from schools. Maybe he is, if he wishes to clarify that then I’ll disagree with that position. It would just seem odd to me that Serm is simultaneously acknowledging that even with considerably more effective vaccines those diseases aren’t fully eradicated, but you’d get close to that state of affairs with COVID vaccine mandates in that cohort. Agree or disagree with his positions but they’re rarely so self-contradictory in such a short space of time, so I’m going with communication crossed wires here. But like I said if my interpretation is wrong Sermakola is welcome to correct it. Yeah that what I posted and that's what I meant. Notice how he again refuses to answer questions and tells people to reinterpret what he posted despite asking people to clarify. He can't even attempt to argue in good faith he just might not be able to do it anymore. You have a host of people who say they agree with him but can't seem to describe any actual things that they agree with him on. It's not about a tribe or a witch hunt he knows that he's got nothing and the only way he can operate is to deflect what anyone says to him and what he says. So aggressively vague and violently against making simple statements to simple questions. It's much harder to keep up the facade of being intelligent then to risk being exposed for what he is. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45699 Posts
On November 06 2022 00:35 Troutish wrote: Ah ok I see, I should've been clearer sorry. I meant out in the real world there's actual antivaxxers living without hindrance but sure, focus all ire on Mr BJ here. I don't see any productivity going on, just text walls at this one guy. I don't know if it's fair to suggest that TLers aren't also having discussions about covid vaccines in real life. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14107 Posts
I'll even throw a bone at him to give an example. When I ask them about why they're not for vaccine mandates they say that the covid vaccine is exceptional and shouldn't be considered the same as other vaccines we mandate for children. That until they complete their trials and move out of emergency use status that its not reasonable to compare the same arguments about them that we do for whooping cough or rubella. It's very easy for them to give a straight answer about questions I ask because they have thought about the question and can give me their answer. Bj aggressively refuses to give an answer he says he's given in the past because he doesn't have an answer and doesn't like how simple questions exposes him. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2695 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26708 Posts
On November 06 2022 01:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I don't know if it's fair to suggest that TLers aren't also having discussions about covid vaccines in real life. Here is where I come for shelter from the crazier end of anti-vaccine rhetoric. Which, ngl. It’s quite a nice respite. Before I’m criticised for wanting an ‘echo chamber’, really it’s not that. I like divergence of opinions, I’m on record as wanting more conservatives in the politics thread. I just, absolutely do not miss dealing with people that are either unwilling, or indeed incapable of reasonable discourse, with the possibility of a shift of position, on this particular topic. Where those I am discussing things with can be catastrophically wrong on basically everything, but the second I admit one of my positions, in hindsight was wrong they have immediately ‘won’ the argument. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14107 Posts
On November 06 2022 01:52 Fleetfeet wrote: Is "Vaccine mandates should be taken on a case-by-case system, and I don't agree with Covid vaccine mandates currently" a fundamentally different answer than the one you provided? Personally, they seem very similar. Those aren't the two answers that are being constructed but one is stating that decisions are made. Everything is done on a case-by-case basis from suns deciding to blow up or not to plants deciding to keep growing or slow down on growing. Its the most complete deflection of "I don't need to answer your question because I have stated that I answer questions". The other is stating why you are making your decision in this case. aka showing that you have any sort of free thoughts going on in your head or awareness that there is a world around you in any way. BJ continuously fails to show this because he knows how his answer will make him look. Hes now trapped even more because I've shown him a rational and simple answer he could have provided at any point this whole time. But we all know he can't even take the rational out because his grievance-based approach wouldn't let him. Its getting to the point where people are going to have to make arguments for him because they pity him for not being able to do it themselves. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 05 2022 21:52 WombaT wrote: ‘No one thinks chickenpox or measles or the flu are eradicated. If we thought that you wouldn't need to get the measles vaccine. You wouldn't need to get the chickenpox vaccine. But you got them anyway and if you'll have kids they'll get them it too.’ I didn’t challenge him on those posts because I don’t think he’s arguing that we could (especially currently) eliminate COVID from schools. Maybe he is, if he wishes to clarify that then I’ll disagree with that position. It would just seem odd to me that Serm is simultaneously acknowledging that even with considerably more effective vaccines those diseases aren’t fully eradicated, but you’d get close to that state of affairs with COVID vaccine mandates in that cohort. Agree or disagree with his positions but they’re rarely so self-contradictory in such a short space of time, so I’m going with communication crossed wires here. But like I said if my interpretation is wrong Sermakola is welcome to correct it. Wow. I normally consider you a pretty straight shooter. This is disappointing. He said what he said. COVID could be “virtually eliminated from schools” just like other diseases we vaccinate children against. Complete eradication is another story. Polio is not completely eradicated but don’t you agree that it’s virtually eliminated from schools? I see this post as nothing more than you saying “hey Serm you said some stupid things here. I’ll give you some rope to walk back this comment if you want to “clarify” that you didn’t mean what you said. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2695 Posts
On November 06 2022 02:51 Sermokala wrote: Those aren't the two answers that are being constructed but one is stating that decisions are made. Everything is done on a case-by-case basis from suns deciding to blow up or not to plants deciding to keep growing or slow down on growing. Its the most complete deflection of "I don't need to answer your question because I have stated that I answer questions". The other is stating why you are making your decision in this case. aka showing that you have any sort of free thoughts going on in your head or awareness that there is a world around you in any way. BJ continuously fails to show this because he knows how his answer will make him look. Hes now trapped even more because I've shown him a rational and simple answer he could have provided at any point this whole time. But we all know he can't even take the rational out because his grievance-based approach wouldn't let him. Its getting to the point where people are going to have to make arguments for him because they pity him for not being able to do it themselves. I expected that to be where your response would go, and understand BJ's frustration in being completely unheard. He's provided a 'why' as well, but you're not arguing against that "why". He's mentioned statistics involving schools having failed to virtually eliminate covid-19 despite 99% vaccination rates. He's mentioned myocarditis or some shit as a side effect of the vaccine. He's provided WHYs, and rather than continuing to attack his WHYs for whatever weakness they have, you've constructed a strawman BJ and continue to attack that. It just feels unproductive. We've been spinning our wheels in this 'argument' for pages upon pages, and your 'simple question' isn't as robust as you think it is. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 05 2022 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: He clarifies in the other post you cited: "Again no one but the anti-vax crowd thinks that people are saying that covid will be totally eliminated." I understood that pair of his posts to mean that covid would no longer be a real issue in schools if everyone were vaccinated (since everyone would have increased resistance and temporary decreases in infection rates thanks to covid boosters, similar to an annual flu shot). I may be misinterpreting what he meant, but I don't think he means that covid would permanently disappear (and if he does actually mean that, then I would disagree with him). Like I said to WombaT, there is a huge different between a disease being completely eradicated off the face of the earth and being “virtually eliminated” in schools. The fact that he said the former doesn’t imply that he didn’t mean to say the latter as well. Secondly, even if you want to interpret his comments in the most charitable way possible they are still wrong as evidenced by the the examples I’ve given of Cornell having 900 cases in 1 week despite the e entire student body being fully vaccinated. Maybe 900 cases in one week is how ya’ll want to define “virtually eliminated.” | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45699 Posts
On November 06 2022 04:43 BlackJack wrote: Like I said to WombaT, there is a huge different between a disease being completely eradicated off the face of the earth and being “virtually eliminated” in schools. The fact that he said the former doesn’t imply that he didn’t mean to say the latter as well. Secondly, even if you want to interpret his comments in the most charitable way possible they are still wrong as evidenced by the the examples I’ve given of Cornell having 900 cases in 1 week despite the e entire student body being fully vaccinated. Maybe 900 cases in one week is how ya’ll want to define “virtually eliminated.” Sure, but none of us know what the disease will look like five or ten years from now, or how effective the vaccines/medication will be five or ten years from now. He could absolutely be wrong, but right now it's optimism regarding a hypothetical future. The 900 cases situation might not be a recurring theme forever. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 06 2022 04:34 Fleetfeet wrote: I expected that to be where your response would go, and understand BJ's frustration in being completely unheard. He's provided a 'why' as well, but you're not arguing against that "why". He's mentioned statistics involving schools having failed to virtually eliminate covid-19 despite 99% vaccination rates. He's mentioned myocarditis or some shit as a side effect of the vaccine. He's provided WHYs, and rather than continuing to attack his WHYs for whatever weakness they have, you've constructed a strawman BJ and continue to attack that. It just feels unproductive. We've been spinning our wheels in this 'argument' for pages upon pages, and your 'simple question' isn't as robust as you think it is. I suspect he just likes having the same circular arguments over and over. My position has always been that I think everyone should get the COVID vaccine but I don't think people should be coerced to get the COVID vaccine (and I've given the reasons at length many many times). Serm's position is that I'm lying and I don't want anyone to get the vaccine. I'm pretty sure he sees himself as Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men and I'm Jack Nicolson and if he just keeps badgering me enough he's going to get to "You can't handle the truth!" line and I confess that I've been an antivaxxer all along and I don't want people to get the vaccine because I want them to die. So yeah I basically try to ignore him now. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 06 2022 05:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Sure, but none of us know what the disease will look like five or ten years from now, or how effective the vaccines/medication will be five or ten years from now. He could absolutely be wrong, but right now it's optimism regarding a hypothetical future. The 900 cases situation might not be a recurring theme forever. Nothing in his post implies that he is talking an optimist position in the future. He literally says "Yes [COVID can be virtually eliminated in schools]. That's what people were saying in 2020 and that's what they are saying NOW (emphasis mine). Oh he really meant that COVID can be eliminated from schools if they invent a new vaccine 5 years from now that works even better!!! Is this really your interpretation of his post? The desperate attempts to invent alternate explanations for his very clear and concise post just proves my point. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45699 Posts
On November 06 2022 05:44 BlackJack wrote: Nothing in his post implies that he is talking an optimist position in the future. He literally says "Yes [COVID can be virtually eliminated in schools]. That's what people were saying in 2020 and that's what they are saying NOW (emphasis mine). Oh he really meant that COVID can be eliminated from schools if they invent a new vaccine 5 years from now that works even better!!! Is this really your interpretation of his post? The desperate attempts to invent alternate explanations for his very clear and concise post just proves my point. You asked him if he thinks herd immunity can be reached and if covid can be eliminated. I understood that to mean "eventually", as opposed to "right this second" or "this year" or any other specific deadline. Him saying Yes is definitionally optimistic, since he wants covid to disappear. He may end up being wrong - that covid will persist forever - but that doesn't mean he's not being optimistic and it doesn't mean the question isn't about the future. Him answering in 2022 ("NOW") doesn't mean he thinks that herd immunity will be reached in 2022 lol. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 06 2022 05:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: You asked him if he thinks herd immunity can be reached and if covid can be eliminated. I understood that to mean "eventually", as opposed to "right this second" or "this year" or any other specific deadline. Him saying Yes is definitionally optimistic, since he wants covid to disappear. He may end up being wrong - that covid will persist forever - but that doesn't mean he's not being optimistic and it doesn't mean the question isn't about the future. Him answering in 2022 ("NOW") doesn't mean he thinks that herd immunity will be reached in 2022 lol. So first you say "I understood that pair of his posts to mean that covid would no longer be a real issue in schools if everyone were vaccinated" and I point out that COVID is still an issue even in schools where everyone is vaccinated. Then you interpret his post as COVID being eliminated in schools in some distant future where we have different and better vaccines. (all while nothing about the post indicates we're talking about the future.) Funny how your interpretation of his post just keeps changing. I'm sure it just slipped your mind to bring up this 2nd interpretation in your 1st post. It's not just that you're inventing them as you go in a desperate attempt to explain away his ridiculous claim. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
BJ you're not an angel, you also get things wrong in very similar ways, and not just on rare occasions. And I have yet to see you admit to even a single instance of that. Are you really holding others to a higher standard than you do yourself? | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 06 2022 06:13 Magic Powers wrote: Those who are without sin cast the first stone. BJ you're not an angel, you also get things wrong in very similar ways, and not just on rare occasions. And I have yet to see you admit to even a single instance of that. Are you really holding others to a higher standard than you do yourself? Not even a single instance of admitting I was wrong? Not even this one a whole 2 pages ago? On November 03 2022 18:35 BlackJack wrote: and just fyi I was also theorizing about herd immunity in early 2020 so I was just as wrong as everyone else and my post didn't imply otherwise. That's just another thing you invented in your head. | ||
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