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Notice how instead of just answering the question he grandstands and insults. All those words and yet can't act like a normal person who was asked a simple question. I'm telling you guys he really just panicks when cornered like a squirrel. Accuses someone else of being mentally deficient and then asks why there is antagonism.
We went through this tooth pulling exercise before and we might as well expect the same. It's perfectly okay to admit you don't want to answer the question. Stating that you use a case by case basis doesn't answer what case you found for covid.
We know you have a problem with the covid vaccine we must want to know what that problem is.
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On November 05 2022 03:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 03:28 Razyda wrote:On November 04 2022 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 04 2022 22:35 Razyda wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived  On November 04 2022 21:10 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Last 50 pages is mostly just people debating whether previous actions taken 1-3 years ago were justified.It's all in the rear view mirror now, probably only 1% still masking here.
Still a few ridiculous rules, like needing to wear a mask in the dentist reception but obviously taking the mask off when you step inside the dentist's office and the dentist is working inside your mouth.Queensland just removed all mask requirements so I imagine these holdovers will be gone in other states by year end. Issue with that is that it encourages them more. If more people were arguing back then and/or keep arguing now, we may not be in the situation we are now. Even after being proven wrong on pretty much everything possible they are still doubling down. We are already living in ridiculous times where people not only approve but are also happy about: Censorship Repercussions for different views FDA being basically advertising department for Pfizer This kind of attitude: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23028843.covid-scotland-vaccines-ruled-cause-neonatal-deaths-spike/"Public Health Scotland (PHS) said its consultants had given “careful consideration” to the “potential benefits and harms” of carrying out such as analysis as part of its probe into the tragic deaths of 39 infants, but concluded against doing so because “it was not possible to identify a scenario that would have resulted in a change to public health policy or practice” given that vaccination policy was already “appropriately informed by good-quality population-level evidence and safety data”. [...} In a statement, PHS added that there was also a risk that “identifying the vaccination status of the mothers, even at aggregate level, would result in harm to those individuals and others close to them, through actual or perceived judgement of the effects of their personal vaccination decision”. Furthermore “ the outcomes of such analysis, whilst being uninformative for public health decision making, had the potential to be used to harm vaccine confidence at this critical time”. " If people ignore it, it will just going to go further downhill. 1. The word "censorship" is meaningless without context (social media? at work? against the law? and what's being said that's being censored?). 2. In response to "Repercussions for different views", again, it depends on context. What are the views? If two people had different perspectives that were both evidence-based, that might be a very different situation than, say, Kanye receiving repercussions/censorship for the "different view" that hating on Jews is okay. 3. As far as that article goes, there's no reason to raise any suspicion by speculating about a non-existent correlation between covid vaccines and miscarriages; we know that pregnant women getting vaccinated is a good and safe thing: 1. "Pregnant Women Who Receive COVID-19 Vaccination Pass Protection from the Virus to Their Newborns" https://nyulangone.org/news/pregnant-women-who-receive-covid-19-vaccination-pass-protection-virus-their-newborns 2. "COVID vaccine reduces risk of severe illness in pregnant women, protects newborns" https://healthblog.uofmhealth.org/womens-health/covid-19-vaccine-during-pregnancy-protects-newborns 3. "If you’re pregnant, planning a pregnancy or breastfeeding, COVID-19 vaccination is recommended." https://raisingchildren.net.au/guides/coronavirus-covid-19-guide/covid-19-vaccinations-pregnancy-breastfeeding 4. "With the COVID-19 pandemic entering its third year, efforts to mitigate the risk for infection remain vitally important, especially for vulnerable populations. A recent study from Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) showed vaccination during pregnancy resulted in more lasting antibody levels in infants, when compared to babies born to unvaccinated, COVID-infected mothers." https://www.massgeneral.org/news/press-release/study-shows-persistent-antibodies-in-infants-after-covid-19-vaccination-in-pregnancy 5. "Babies Better Protected From COVID if Mother Vaccinated During Pregnancy" https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/968674 1 - it actually isnt - censorship is censorship - I previously linked BMJ article how they were censored on Facebook and it wasnt separate accident. It is not like censorship is becoming something good, if it happens to censor people/opinions you disagree with/dont like. 2 - no it doesnt, we not talking about criminal activity, we talking about scientists having different opinions. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11024-022-09479-4Link to actually quite interesting article regarding first 2 points. Unfortunately, that article merely lists situations where someone got censored or received repercussions, without actually going into detail about what was said. The article says that Person X's tweet received a warning, for example, without actually saying what the tweet was. That article doesn't mention what was said, nor does it bother to analyze if certain videos or messages were "censored" because it was merely a different of legitimate scientific opinion, or for some other reason (like breaking ToS). If your position is "the context doesn't matter, it's all censorship/consequences so it's all necessarily bad", then we're going to have to fundamentally disagree on whether or not experiencing repercussions can ever be justified. Show nested quote +3 - I dont think you understood what is my issue with PHS regarding this article. I am not saying that vaccine is the cause. I am saying that this possibility should be investigated and not discarded beforehand. What should never ever have impact on this decision is this bit: "the outcomes of such analysis, whilst being uninformative for public health decision making, had the potential to be used to harm vaccine confidence at this critical time" So there is "no plausible link", or as you say "non-existent correlation" and yet somehow outcomes of such analysis had the potential to be used to harm vaccine confidence. That doesnt seem to make sense? Considering that over 5 billion people had vaccine ( https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations ) I would say that even slightest health abnormality should be analyzed with this angle in mind. Also links you provided seem to further prove my point? All those confirm that vaccine taken by pregnant women actually affects the child? Positively is not the same as negatively. They're opposites. And yes, of course that pointless analysis would harm vaccine confidence; why would pregnant people get vaccinated if they heard that scientists were suddenly wondering if the vaccine is causing miscarriages, despite all of the above resources showing positive effects? That would be the take-away from many people who don't understand correlation vs. causation and who don't realize that doing a study for the millionth time doesn't mean that the public needs to be worried. This has already been researched, in depth, all around the world, and the last thing that was needed during the height of the pandemic was more vaccine hesitancy about its safety.
Bolded: "Study participants include 13 established doctors and scientists" and judging from the article authors seems to know what they doing, so i highly doubt that they included established doctors banned for posting videos of them dancing naked at crossroads at midnight.
Italic: A bit out of order. Harm vaccine confidence - highly doubt it, those who wanted vaccine already had it, those who dont probably wont have it anyway. What about people who would understand, like you know doctors and scientists? they dont deserve to know because someone could misunderstood the data?
Millionth time? Already researched in depth all around the world? could you please provide me with, lets say, 3 links to research about "neonatal deaths after Covid vaccination"
On November 05 2022 03:28 Razyda wrote:
Also links you provided seem to further prove my point? All those confirm that vaccine taken by pregnant women actually affects the child?
On November 05 2022 03:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Positively is not the same as negatively. They're opposites..
This two, my question and your answer I quoted separately, because in all honesty I dont even know what can be said here. I dont think anyone who finished high school would answer that. It is wrong, it is ignorant, it sounds more like religion than science.
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On November 05 2022 09:47 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 03:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 05 2022 03:28 Razyda wrote:On November 04 2022 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 04 2022 22:35 Razyda wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived On November 04 2022 21:10 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Last 50 pages is mostly just people debating whether previous actions taken 1-3 years ago were justified.It's all in the rear view mirror now, probably only 1% still masking here.
Still a few ridiculous rules, like needing to wear a mask in the dentist reception but obviously taking the mask off when you step inside the dentist's office and the dentist is working inside your mouth.Queensland just removed all mask requirements so I imagine these holdovers will be gone in other states by year end. Issue with that is that it encourages them more. If more people were arguing back then and/or keep arguing now, we may not be in the situation we are now. Even after being proven wrong on pretty much everything possible they are still doubling down. We are already living in ridiculous times where people not only approve but are also happy about: Censorship Repercussions for different views FDA being basically advertising department for Pfizer This kind of attitude: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23028843.covid-scotland-vaccines-ruled-cause-neonatal-deaths-spike/"Public Health Scotland (PHS) said its consultants had given “careful consideration” to the “potential benefits and harms” of carrying out such as analysis as part of its probe into the tragic deaths of 39 infants, but concluded against doing so because “it was not possible to identify a scenario that would have resulted in a change to public health policy or practice” given that vaccination policy was already “appropriately informed by good-quality population-level evidence and safety data”. [...} In a statement, PHS added that there was also a risk that “identifying the vaccination status of the mothers, even at aggregate level, would result in harm to those individuals and others close to them, through actual or perceived judgement of the effects of their personal vaccination decision”. Furthermore “ the outcomes of such analysis, whilst being uninformative for public health decision making, had the potential to be used to harm vaccine confidence at this critical time”. " If people ignore it, it will just going to go further downhill. 1. The word "censorship" is meaningless without context (social media? at work? against the law? and what's being said that's being censored?). 2. In response to "Repercussions for different views", again, it depends on context. What are the views? If two people had different perspectives that were both evidence-based, that might be a very different situation than, say, Kanye receiving repercussions/censorship for the "different view" that hating on Jews is okay. 3. As far as that article goes, there's no reason to raise any suspicion by speculating about a non-existent correlation between covid vaccines and miscarriages; we know that pregnant women getting vaccinated is a good and safe thing: 1. "Pregnant Women Who Receive COVID-19 Vaccination Pass Protection from the Virus to Their Newborns" https://nyulangone.org/news/pregnant-women-who-receive-covid-19-vaccination-pass-protection-virus-their-newborns 2. "COVID vaccine reduces risk of severe illness in pregnant women, protects newborns" https://healthblog.uofmhealth.org/womens-health/covid-19-vaccine-during-pregnancy-protects-newborns 3. "If you’re pregnant, planning a pregnancy or breastfeeding, COVID-19 vaccination is recommended." https://raisingchildren.net.au/guides/coronavirus-covid-19-guide/covid-19-vaccinations-pregnancy-breastfeeding 4. "With the COVID-19 pandemic entering its third year, efforts to mitigate the risk for infection remain vitally important, especially for vulnerable populations. A recent study from Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) showed vaccination during pregnancy resulted in more lasting antibody levels in infants, when compared to babies born to unvaccinated, COVID-infected mothers." https://www.massgeneral.org/news/press-release/study-shows-persistent-antibodies-in-infants-after-covid-19-vaccination-in-pregnancy 5. "Babies Better Protected From COVID if Mother Vaccinated During Pregnancy" https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/968674 1 - it actually isnt - censorship is censorship - I previously linked BMJ article how they were censored on Facebook and it wasnt separate accident. It is not like censorship is becoming something good, if it happens to censor people/opinions you disagree with/dont like. 2 - no it doesnt, we not talking about criminal activity, we talking about scientists having different opinions. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11024-022-09479-4Link to actually quite interesting article regarding first 2 points. Unfortunately, that article merely lists situations where someone got censored or received repercussions, without actually going into detail about what was said. The article says that Person X's tweet received a warning, for example, without actually saying what the tweet was. That article doesn't mention what was said, nor does it bother to analyze if certain videos or messages were "censored" because it was merely a different of legitimate scientific opinion, or for some other reason (like breaking ToS). If your position is "the context doesn't matter, it's all censorship/consequences so it's all necessarily bad", then we're going to have to fundamentally disagree on whether or not experiencing repercussions can ever be justified. 3 - I dont think you understood what is my issue with PHS regarding this article. I am not saying that vaccine is the cause. I am saying that this possibility should be investigated and not discarded beforehand. What should never ever have impact on this decision is this bit: "the outcomes of such analysis, whilst being uninformative for public health decision making, had the potential to be used to harm vaccine confidence at this critical time" So there is "no plausible link", or as you say "non-existent correlation" and yet somehow outcomes of such analysis had the potential to be used to harm vaccine confidence. That doesnt seem to make sense? Considering that over 5 billion people had vaccine ( https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations ) I would say that even slightest health abnormality should be analyzed with this angle in mind. Also links you provided seem to further prove my point? All those confirm that vaccine taken by pregnant women actually affects the child?Positively is not the same as negatively. They're opposites. And yes, of course that pointless analysis would harm vaccine confidence; why would pregnant people get vaccinated if they heard that scientists were suddenly wondering if the vaccine is causing miscarriages, despite all of the above resources showing positive effects? That would be the take-away from many people who don't understand correlation vs. causation and who don't realize that doing a study for the millionth time doesn't mean that the public needs to be worried. This has already been researched, in depth, all around the world, and the last thing that was needed during the height of the pandemic was more vaccine hesitancy about its safety. Bolded: "Study participants include 13 established doctors and scientists" and judging from the article authors seems to know what they doing, so i highly doubt that they included established doctors banned for posting videos of them dancing naked at crossroads at midnight. Italic: A bit out of order. Harm vaccine confidence - highly doubt it, those who wanted vaccine already had it, those who dont probably wont have it anyway. What about people who would understand, like you know doctors and scientists? they dont deserve to know because someone could misunderstood the data? Millionth time? Already researched in depth all around the world? could you please provide me with, lets say, 3 links to research about "neonatal deaths after Covid vaccination" Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 03:28 Razyda wrote:
Also links you provided seem to further prove my point? All those confirm that vaccine taken by pregnant women actually affects the child?
Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 03:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Positively is not the same as negatively. They're opposites.. This two, my question and your answer I quoted separately, because in all honesty I dont even know what can be said here. I dont think anyone who finished high school would answer that. It is wrong, it is ignorant, it sounds more like religion than science.
Bolded: You can assert that what someone said was probably fine, but the point still stands that we have no idea what was actually said.
Italic: Becoming pregnant comes with an entire new set of concerns, including what food, medicines, and shots you end up getting (that you were previously fine with), to make sure they don't interfere with pregnancy. It's completely reasonable for a woman who is starting a vaccine/medicine regiment to wonder if she should continue it once she becomes pregnant, because her body is drastically changing in new ways. If she thinks that the vaccine will negatively affect her pregnancy, she may not continue with boosters (despite them actually being beneficial).
"could you please provide me with, lets say, 3 links to research about "neonatal deaths after Covid vaccination""
I literally just provided you with 5 links of information explaining why pregnant women ought to continue getting vaccinated, as a response to your post wondering if we should be concerned about pregnant women getting vaccinated. If that's not good enough for you, then I'm sorry.
"This two, my question and your answer I quoted separately, because in all honesty I dont even know what can be said here. I dont think anyone who finished high school would answer that. It is wrong, it is ignorant, it sounds more like religion than science."
I don't know what this means. You're doing the Trump-esque "I'm just asking questions" nonsense about a non-existent link between vaccines and miscarriages, whereas the research shows that vaccines are healthy for both pregnant women and their babies. What you're (presumably) innocently asking about is a source of fearmongering and it creates unjustified vaccine hesitancy.
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On November 05 2022 08:21 Sermokala wrote:
Notice how instead of just answering the question he grandstands and insults. All those words and yet can't act like a normal person who was asked a simple question. I'm telling you guys he really just panicks when cornered like a squirrel. Accuses someone else of being mentally deficient and then asks why there is antagonism.
We went through this tooth pulling exercise before and we might as well expect the same. It's perfectly okay to admit you don't want to answer the question. Stating that you use a case by case basis doesn't answer what case you found for covid.
We know you have a problem with the covid vaccine we must want to know what that problem is.
And unfortunately Drone is enabling his behavior by always telling people that BJ is not doing any of what he's accused of doing. This gives him the impression that he's been unjustly accused by people (somehow, since months and years) and he has the backing of a long standing forum moderator to feed his behavior, so he can play the role of the victimized hero, when in fact he consistently and poorly communicates bad information about vaccines, lockdowns and other pandemic related measures as well as their consequences, and misrepresents other people's positions with a very high consistency as well.
Drone has the ability to go through BJs posting history and notice that in fact he has been very consistently doing what he's been accused of doing. Of course not every accusation is accurate or true, but the majority clearly is. But there's an obvious bias (as Drone even stated himself recently) in favor of another long standing member of tl.net. Such bias shouldn't exist when it comes to certain matters like news and facts and objective discussions. It should only matter in regards to general demeanor.
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On November 05 2022 08:21 Sermokala wrote:
Notice how instead of just answering the question he grandstands and insults. All those words and yet can't act like a normal person who was asked a simple question. I'm telling you guys he really just panicks when cornered like a squirrel. Accuses someone else of being mentally deficient and then asks why there is antagonism.
We went through this tooth pulling exercise before and we might as well expect the same. It's perfectly okay to admit you don't want to answer the question. Stating that you use a case by case basis doesn't answer what case you found for covid.
We know you have a problem with the covid vaccine we must want to know what that problem is.
I don’t feel like reiterating my position for the 1,000th time so use the search function if you can’t remember the last 10 times I explained it to you
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Very interesting thoughts guys.
I think whether or not vaccines can eradicate a disease is not up to debate, ie smallpox. Could the current or past covid 19 vaccines have eradicated covid? I'm not sure. The truth is, even if there was that potential, not enough people got the vaccines in a timely manner. Covid is also such an annoying virus that seems to mutate quickly and transmits easily, with an incubation period that makes it so challenging from a public health perspective. The world is so connected now that even if a group of people somewhere had perfect vaccination, there will still likely be pockets of infection due to travel, periods of waning immunity, etc.
That being said, could a future covid vaccine be developed that is much more effective at preserving immunity and give us a better chance at disease eradication? Maybe. But the realist in me is doubtful that enough people would get it to even give us that chance to find out.
And therein lies one of the biggest bummers for me personally during this pandemic...the realization that humans suck at basic risk vs benefit analysis. Honestly, even though I took care of so many covid patients in the hospital between 2019 - early 2022, and saw a lot of deaths and suffering, it's the realization that people are imperfect, nay illogical, which saddens me more.
The fact that people would rather risk their lives, other people's lives, the health of the community, the world at large because they don't want to be poked a few times by a needle just destroys me. Vaccines, and even these early covid vaccines, are the best tools we have in medicine. They are not just effective, they are extremely cost effective. For example, shingles vaccine is 2 shots with >90% prevention of shingles. How many treatments or medications can achieve that in medicine? When new clinical trials come out, we are suppose to get hot and bothered by "5% risk reduction" and prescribe these new drugs to patients...give me a fucking a break. Most of these require us to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to prevent one adverse event. Yet people love asking about new drugs or taking useless supplements for whatever they think is wrong with them.
If people were offered the same gambling odds or sports betting odds that vaccines give in terms of risk/cost vs benefit, every single person would be clawing their way to the front to buy those tickets. Yet somehow when you add a needle to the equation, everything changes and suddenly people are irrational.
Anyway, I know this turned out to be kind of a rant but I'm been thinking about this for a while. Thanks for the discussion they have been great to read.
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On November 05 2022 17:36 Titusmaster6 wrote:
Very interesting thoughts guys.
I think whether or not vaccines can eradicate a disease is not up to debate, ie smallpox. Could the current or past covid 19 vaccines have eradicated covid? I'm not sure. The truth is, even if there was that potential, not enough people got the vaccines in a timely manner. Covid is also such an annoying virus that seems to mutate quickly and transmits easily, with an incubation period that makes it so challenging from a public health perspective. The world is so connected now that even if a group of people somewhere had perfect vaccination, there will still likely be pockets of infection due to travel, periods of waning immunity, etc.
That being said, could a future covid vaccine be developed that is much more effective at preserving immunity and give us a better chance at disease eradication? Maybe. But the realist in me is doubtful that enough people would get it to even give us that chance to find out.
And therein lies one of the biggest bummers for me personally during this pandemic...the realization that humans suck at basic risk vs benefit analysis. Honestly, even though I took care of so many covid patients in the hospital between 2019 - early 2022, and saw a lot of deaths and suffering, it's the realization that people are imperfect, nay illogical, which saddens me more.
The fact that people would rather risk their lives, other people's lives, the health of the community, the world at large because they don't want to be poked a few times by a needle just destroys me. Vaccines, and even these early covid vaccines, are the best tools we have in medicine. They are not just effective, they are extremely cost effective. For example, shingles vaccine is 2 shots with >90% prevention of shingles. How many treatments or medications can achieve that in medicine? When new clinical trials come out, we are suppose to get hot and bothered by "5% risk reduction" and prescribe these new drugs to patients...give me a fucking a break. Most of these require us to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to prevent one adverse event. Yet people love asking about new drugs or taking useless supplements for whatever they think is wrong with them.
If people were offered the same gambling odds or sports betting odds that vaccines give in terms of risk/cost vs benefit, every single person would be clawing their way to the front to buy those tickets. Yet somehow when you add a needle to the equation, everything changes and suddenly people are irrational.
Anyway, I know this turned out to be kind of a rant but I'm been thinking about this for a while. Thanks for the discussion they have been great to read.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Titus. Very well said, imo.
"Yet somehow when you add a needle to the equation, everything changes and suddenly people are irrational."
This sentence reminds me of how anti-vaxxers who fearmonger often tend to call the vaccine "the jab", as if to prefer illustrating a picture of being stabbed with a knife instead of a standard, 5-second medical procedure that even babies can handle.
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On November 05 2022 05:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 04:48 BlackJack wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived Yeah that’s true for you. I don’t often see you wasting your time posting in this thread like the rest of us. But there are a lot of people that follow this discussion and jump in if I make the slightest slip up like failing to use a qualifier from one post to the next. I have to be careful what I write in every post because people will gladly interpret my posts in the least charitable way possible. Meanwhile Serm gets to regularly post the most asinine arguments and never provides any links or data to support his arguments. He’s arguing that it’s logical to conclude covid can be eliminated from schools with the COVID vaccine because measles was eliminated from schools with the MMR vaccine. Just completely ignoring the obvious fact that people that get the MMR vaccine are very unlikely to get measles but people that get the COVID vaccine are basically still destined to get COVID. Just the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments and then has the nerve to insist that “science” is on his side and if you disagree you’re hateful and ignorant and yadda yadda. But all the defenders of science in this thread are silent because they don’t actually care about people spreading misinformation. They care about tribalism and they are not going to criticize a member of their own tribe. What misinformation, what tribe? + Show Spoiler +People here seem more hell-bent on snapshotting something and insisting they are right than anything else.
I don’t personally have the factual recall to remember all the pertinent stats and cross reference them with live policies across a 3 year period. Nor the lack of laziness to look it all up
From what I gather some precautions were reasonable, when it became clear vaccines were considerably less effective versus omicron, that required some re-evaluation.
On educational impact, as per mental health impact I have a certain bias, namely that all COVID did was draw up and expand the areas in which existing deficiencies hit, they’re nothing new.
Mental health provision in my domain fucking sucked anyway, the only difference was more people needed it. Likewise children fall through educational cracks, but it was just more visible.
And once COVID has entirely subsided, how many of the cohort who cared about those issues, still will?
That said, least from what I have seen, in some locales schools did stay closed for too long, based on what would be effective practice, so I’m 100% agreed there.
Just to reiterate my post in case you are asking earnestly
Sermokala said that we could virtually eliminate COVID in schools if we just mandated COVID vaccines to students. Not only is this obviously untrue at face value for anyone that is paying attention but we even have real world examples where COVID propagates in schools whose entire student body is fully vaccinated.
Nobody bats an eye. Nobody challenges this.
The point is you can make any claim you want in this thread no matter how ridiculous and nobody will challenge it as long as you're determined to be on "their side." You personally might say that people are not challenging it because they are just disinterested in arguing anymore but people were happy to debate back and forth with me for 20 pages on how effective the vaccines are at preventing infection and transmission.
When a true claim like "the COVID vaccines are not great at preventing transmission" draws 10x the ire and dispute than an obviously untrue claim like "we can eliminate COVID in schools with vaccine mandates" then it's quite farcical.
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On November 05 2022 19:51 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 05:24 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2022 04:48 BlackJack wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived Yeah that’s true for you. I don’t often see you wasting your time posting in this thread like the rest of us. But there are a lot of people that follow this discussion and jump in if I make the slightest slip up like failing to use a qualifier from one post to the next. I have to be careful what I write in every post because people will gladly interpret my posts in the least charitable way possible. Meanwhile Serm gets to regularly post the most asinine arguments and never provides any links or data to support his arguments. He’s arguing that it’s logical to conclude covid can be eliminated from schools with the COVID vaccine because measles was eliminated from schools with the MMR vaccine. Just completely ignoring the obvious fact that people that get the MMR vaccine are very unlikely to get measles but people that get the COVID vaccine are basically still destined to get COVID. Just the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments and then has the nerve to insist that “science” is on his side and if you disagree you’re hateful and ignorant and yadda yadda. But all the defenders of science in this thread are silent because they don’t actually care about people spreading misinformation. They care about tribalism and they are not going to criticize a member of their own tribe. What misinformation, what tribe? + Show Spoiler +People here seem more hell-bent on snapshotting something and insisting they are right than anything else.
I don’t personally have the factual recall to remember all the pertinent stats and cross reference them with live policies across a 3 year period. Nor the lack of laziness to look it all up
From what I gather some precautions were reasonable, when it became clear vaccines were considerably less effective versus omicron, that required some re-evaluation.
On educational impact, as per mental health impact I have a certain bias, namely that all COVID did was draw up and expand the areas in which existing deficiencies hit, they’re nothing new.
Mental health provision in my domain fucking sucked anyway, the only difference was more people needed it. Likewise children fall through educational cracks, but it was just more visible.
And once COVID has entirely subsided, how many of the cohort who cared about those issues, still will?
That said, least from what I have seen, in some locales schools did stay closed for too long, based on what would be effective practice, so I’m 100% agreed there. Just to reiterate my post in case you are asking earnestly Sermokala said that we could virtually eliminate COVID in schools if we just mandated COVID vaccines to students.
Did he say that recently? I missed it. Which post was it?
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On November 05 2022 20:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 19:51 BlackJack wrote:On November 05 2022 05:24 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2022 04:48 BlackJack wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived Yeah that’s true for you. I don’t often see you wasting your time posting in this thread like the rest of us. But there are a lot of people that follow this discussion and jump in if I make the slightest slip up like failing to use a qualifier from one post to the next. I have to be careful what I write in every post because people will gladly interpret my posts in the least charitable way possible. Meanwhile Serm gets to regularly post the most asinine arguments and never provides any links or data to support his arguments. He’s arguing that it’s logical to conclude covid can be eliminated from schools with the COVID vaccine because measles was eliminated from schools with the MMR vaccine. Just completely ignoring the obvious fact that people that get the MMR vaccine are very unlikely to get measles but people that get the COVID vaccine are basically still destined to get COVID. Just the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments and then has the nerve to insist that “science” is on his side and if you disagree you’re hateful and ignorant and yadda yadda. But all the defenders of science in this thread are silent because they don’t actually care about people spreading misinformation. They care about tribalism and they are not going to criticize a member of their own tribe. What misinformation, what tribe? + Show Spoiler +People here seem more hell-bent on snapshotting something and insisting they are right than anything else.
I don’t personally have the factual recall to remember all the pertinent stats and cross reference them with live policies across a 3 year period. Nor the lack of laziness to look it all up
From what I gather some precautions were reasonable, when it became clear vaccines were considerably less effective versus omicron, that required some re-evaluation.
On educational impact, as per mental health impact I have a certain bias, namely that all COVID did was draw up and expand the areas in which existing deficiencies hit, they’re nothing new.
Mental health provision in my domain fucking sucked anyway, the only difference was more people needed it. Likewise children fall through educational cracks, but it was just more visible.
And once COVID has entirely subsided, how many of the cohort who cared about those issues, still will?
That said, least from what I have seen, in some locales schools did stay closed for too long, based on what would be effective practice, so I’m 100% agreed there. Just to reiterate my post in case you are asking earnestly Sermokala said that we could virtually eliminate COVID in schools if we just mandated COVID vaccines to students. Did he say that recently? I missed it. Which post was it?
Posts 12879 and 12891
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On November 05 2022 20:16 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 20:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 05 2022 19:51 BlackJack wrote:On November 05 2022 05:24 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2022 04:48 BlackJack wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived Yeah that’s true for you. I don’t often see you wasting your time posting in this thread like the rest of us. But there are a lot of people that follow this discussion and jump in if I make the slightest slip up like failing to use a qualifier from one post to the next. I have to be careful what I write in every post because people will gladly interpret my posts in the least charitable way possible. Meanwhile Serm gets to regularly post the most asinine arguments and never provides any links or data to support his arguments. He’s arguing that it’s logical to conclude covid can be eliminated from schools with the COVID vaccine because measles was eliminated from schools with the MMR vaccine. Just completely ignoring the obvious fact that people that get the MMR vaccine are very unlikely to get measles but people that get the COVID vaccine are basically still destined to get COVID. Just the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments and then has the nerve to insist that “science” is on his side and if you disagree you’re hateful and ignorant and yadda yadda. But all the defenders of science in this thread are silent because they don’t actually care about people spreading misinformation. They care about tribalism and they are not going to criticize a member of their own tribe. What misinformation, what tribe? + Show Spoiler +People here seem more hell-bent on snapshotting something and insisting they are right than anything else.
I don’t personally have the factual recall to remember all the pertinent stats and cross reference them with live policies across a 3 year period. Nor the lack of laziness to look it all up
From what I gather some precautions were reasonable, when it became clear vaccines were considerably less effective versus omicron, that required some re-evaluation.
On educational impact, as per mental health impact I have a certain bias, namely that all COVID did was draw up and expand the areas in which existing deficiencies hit, they’re nothing new.
Mental health provision in my domain fucking sucked anyway, the only difference was more people needed it. Likewise children fall through educational cracks, but it was just more visible.
And once COVID has entirely subsided, how many of the cohort who cared about those issues, still will?
That said, least from what I have seen, in some locales schools did stay closed for too long, based on what would be effective practice, so I’m 100% agreed there. Just to reiterate my post in case you are asking earnestly Sermokala said that we could virtually eliminate COVID in schools if we just mandated COVID vaccines to students. Did he say that recently? I missed it. Which post was it? Posts 12879 and 12891
I just reread those posts and I don't see it tbh.
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“Do you still believe we can achieve herd immunity against COVID and virtually eliminate it from our schools the way we have chicken pox and measles, or...? What?“
“Yes.”
What am I missing…?
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On November 05 2022 19:51 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 05:24 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2022 04:48 BlackJack wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived Yeah that’s true for you. I don’t often see you wasting your time posting in this thread like the rest of us. But there are a lot of people that follow this discussion and jump in if I make the slightest slip up like failing to use a qualifier from one post to the next. I have to be careful what I write in every post because people will gladly interpret my posts in the least charitable way possible. Meanwhile Serm gets to regularly post the most asinine arguments and never provides any links or data to support his arguments. He’s arguing that it’s logical to conclude covid can be eliminated from schools with the COVID vaccine because measles was eliminated from schools with the MMR vaccine. Just completely ignoring the obvious fact that people that get the MMR vaccine are very unlikely to get measles but people that get the COVID vaccine are basically still destined to get COVID. Just the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments and then has the nerve to insist that “science” is on his side and if you disagree you’re hateful and ignorant and yadda yadda. But all the defenders of science in this thread are silent because they don’t actually care about people spreading misinformation. They care about tribalism and they are not going to criticize a member of their own tribe. What misinformation, what tribe? + Show Spoiler +People here seem more hell-bent on snapshotting something and insisting they are right than anything else.
I don’t personally have the factual recall to remember all the pertinent stats and cross reference them with live policies across a 3 year period. Nor the lack of laziness to look it all up
From what I gather some precautions were reasonable, when it became clear vaccines were considerably less effective versus omicron, that required some re-evaluation.
On educational impact, as per mental health impact I have a certain bias, namely that all COVID did was draw up and expand the areas in which existing deficiencies hit, they’re nothing new.
Mental health provision in my domain fucking sucked anyway, the only difference was more people needed it. Likewise children fall through educational cracks, but it was just more visible.
And once COVID has entirely subsided, how many of the cohort who cared about those issues, still will?
That said, least from what I have seen, in some locales schools did stay closed for too long, based on what would be effective practice, so I’m 100% agreed there. Just to reiterate my post in case you are asking earnestly Sermokala said that we could virtually eliminate COVID in schools if we just mandated COVID vaccines to students. Not only is this obviously untrue at face value for anyone that is paying attention but we even have real world examples where COVID propagates in schools whose entire student body is fully vaccinated. Nobody bats an eye. Nobody challenges this. The point is you can make any claim you want in this thread no matter how ridiculous and nobody will challenge it as long as you're determined to be on "their side." You personally might say that people are not challenging it because they are just disinterested in arguing anymore but people were happy to debate back and forth with me for 20 pages on how effective the vaccines are at preventing infection and transmission. When a true claim like "the COVID vaccines are not great at preventing transmission" draws 10x the ire and dispute than an obviously untrue claim like "we can eliminate COVID in schools with vaccine mandates" then it's quite farcical.
I gave you support on school closures being a bad idea in the current situation, which meant pushing back against several other people who were opposing you on that. I really don't know where you're getting this idea from that "nobody will challenge" a claim just because they're taking a "side". I'm strongly opposed to many of your viewpoints and I took your "side". This thread is not teamplay, we're debating issues and forming our views independently. The reason why people are so often opposed to your views is because you're consistently refusing to show support for vaccines and such things, and instead you prefer to point out minor issues with them, or with certain policies. It's completely unbalanced on your "side".
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On November 05 2022 21:05 BlackJack wrote:
“Do you still believe we can achieve herd immunity against COVID and virtually eliminate it from our schools the way we have chicken pox and measles, or...? What?“
“Yes.”
What am I missing…?
He clarifies in the other post you cited: "Again no one but the anti-vax crowd thinks that people are saying that covid will be totally eliminated."
I understood that pair of his posts to mean that covid would no longer be a real issue in schools if everyone were vaccinated (since everyone would have increased resistance and temporary decreases in infection rates thanks to covid boosters, similar to an annual flu shot). I may be misinterpreting what he meant, but I don't think he means that covid would permanently disappear (and if he does actually mean that, then I would disagree with him).
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On November 05 2022 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 19:51 BlackJack wrote:On November 05 2022 05:24 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2022 04:48 BlackJack wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived Yeah that’s true for you. I don’t often see you wasting your time posting in this thread like the rest of us. But there are a lot of people that follow this discussion and jump in if I make the slightest slip up like failing to use a qualifier from one post to the next. I have to be careful what I write in every post because people will gladly interpret my posts in the least charitable way possible. Meanwhile Serm gets to regularly post the most asinine arguments and never provides any links or data to support his arguments. He’s arguing that it’s logical to conclude covid can be eliminated from schools with the COVID vaccine because measles was eliminated from schools with the MMR vaccine. Just completely ignoring the obvious fact that people that get the MMR vaccine are very unlikely to get measles but people that get the COVID vaccine are basically still destined to get COVID. Just the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments and then has the nerve to insist that “science” is on his side and if you disagree you’re hateful and ignorant and yadda yadda. But all the defenders of science in this thread are silent because they don’t actually care about people spreading misinformation. They care about tribalism and they are not going to criticize a member of their own tribe. What misinformation, what tribe? + Show Spoiler +People here seem more hell-bent on snapshotting something and insisting they are right than anything else.
I don’t personally have the factual recall to remember all the pertinent stats and cross reference them with live policies across a 3 year period. Nor the lack of laziness to look it all up
From what I gather some precautions were reasonable, when it became clear vaccines were considerably less effective versus omicron, that required some re-evaluation.
On educational impact, as per mental health impact I have a certain bias, namely that all COVID did was draw up and expand the areas in which existing deficiencies hit, they’re nothing new.
Mental health provision in my domain fucking sucked anyway, the only difference was more people needed it. Likewise children fall through educational cracks, but it was just more visible.
And once COVID has entirely subsided, how many of the cohort who cared about those issues, still will?
That said, least from what I have seen, in some locales schools did stay closed for too long, based on what would be effective practice, so I’m 100% agreed there. Just to reiterate my post in case you are asking earnestly Sermokala said that we could virtually eliminate COVID in schools if we just mandated COVID vaccines to students. Not only is this obviously untrue at face value for anyone that is paying attention but we even have real world examples where COVID propagates in schools whose entire student body is fully vaccinated. Nobody bats an eye. Nobody challenges this. The point is you can make any claim you want in this thread no matter how ridiculous and nobody will challenge it as long as you're determined to be on "their side." You personally might say that people are not challenging it because they are just disinterested in arguing anymore but people were happy to debate back and forth with me for 20 pages on how effective the vaccines are at preventing infection and transmission. When a true claim like "the COVID vaccines are not great at preventing transmission" draws 10x the ire and dispute than an obviously untrue claim like "we can eliminate COVID in schools with vaccine mandates" then it's quite farcical. I gave you support on school closures being a bad idea in the current situation, which meant pushing back against several other people who were opposing you on that. I really don't know where you're getting this idea from that "nobody will challenge" a claim just because they're taking a "side". I'm strongly opposed to many of your viewpoints and I took your "side". This thread is not teamplay, we're debating issues and forming our views independently. The reason why people are so often opposed to your views is because you're consistently refusing to show support for vaccines and such things, and instead you prefer to point out minor issues with them, or with certain policies. It's completely unbalanced on your "side".
Similarly, there have been times where I've agreed with BJ and have made that clear. There are also times where other people have agreed with BJ in this thread. I just try to mostly ignore when Serm and BJ are mudslinging.
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Northern Ireland23314 Posts
On November 05 2022 17:36 Titusmaster6 wrote:
Very interesting thoughts guys.
I think whether or not vaccines can eradicate a disease is not up to debate, ie smallpox. Could the current or past covid 19 vaccines have eradicated covid? I'm not sure. The truth is, even if there was that potential, not enough people got the vaccines in a timely manner. Covid is also such an annoying virus that seems to mutate quickly and transmits easily, with an incubation period that makes it so challenging from a public health perspective. The world is so connected now that even if a group of people somewhere had perfect vaccination, there will still likely be pockets of infection due to travel, periods of waning immunity, etc.
That being said, could a future covid vaccine be developed that is much more effective at preserving immunity and give us a better chance at disease eradication? Maybe. But the realist in me is doubtful that enough people would get it to even give us that chance to find out.
And therein lies one of the biggest bummers for me personally during this pandemic...the realization that humans suck at basic risk vs benefit analysis. Honestly, even though I took care of so many covid patients in the hospital between 2019 - early 2022, and saw a lot of deaths and suffering, it's the realization that people are imperfect, nay illogical, which saddens me more.
The fact that people would rather risk their lives, other people's lives, the health of the community, the world at large because they don't want to be poked a few times by a needle just destroys me. Vaccines, and even these early covid vaccines, are the best tools we have in medicine. They are not just effective, they are extremely cost effective. For example, shingles vaccine is 2 shots with >90% prevention of shingles. How many treatments or medications can achieve that in medicine? When new clinical trials come out, we are suppose to get hot and bothered by "5% risk reduction" and prescribe these new drugs to patients...give me a fucking a break. Most of these require us to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to prevent one adverse event. Yet people love asking about new drugs or taking useless supplements for whatever they think is wrong with them.
If people were offered the same gambling odds or sports betting odds that vaccines give in terms of risk/cost vs benefit, every single person would be clawing their way to the front to buy those tickets. Yet somehow when you add a needle to the equation, everything changes and suddenly people are irrational.
Anyway, I know this turned out to be kind of a rant but I'm been thinking about this for a while. Thanks for the discussion they have been great to read.
Well said, and welcome to the thread! Don’t recall seeing you post here before.
You give someone those numbers for a weight loss drug and they’ll struggle to keep it stocked on the shelves. If you offered me a guarantee of stability with my Bipolar with those odds, I’ll snap your hand off and possibly give you one of my kidneys.
I don’t think it’s anything to do with needles specifically, you’d just move from ‘it’s experimental gene therapy’ or ‘it’s not a real vaccine it’s an mRNA one’ to ‘it’s not a real vaccine it’s not delivered by a needle’, if say they developed something in pill form.
It’s a toxic stew of genuine, but well-intentioned illiteracy and active, malicious misinformation. Plus a fair degree of fault in communication for those doing the convincing.
We are as a species not the best at cost-benefit analyses at the best of times, but that goes from being a bit off to wholly useless if people are convinced there is no benefit at all. Or the cost is way higher than it actually is.
Information pipelines have changed, for better and for worse. I personally feel better informed for this thread existing and, the odd bit of friction aside the sterling efforts of posters in here has been much appreciated.
On the flipside well, the village crank is no longer confined to their village, they can find enough of their fellows to carve out whole villages worth of cranks.
Neither of which were possible before, but I’m unsure how one actually deals with that when it comes to a big public health crisis.
It’s a popular past time for people to fantasise about how they’d fare in some dark times, or some apocalyptic event. Why I imagine those kind of zombie scenarios are so popular. I mean the evidence is, we wouldn’t fare all that well if so many refused to even wear masks during a pandemic.
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Northern Ireland23314 Posts
On November 05 2022 19:51 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2022 05:24 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2022 04:48 BlackJack wrote:On November 04 2022 20:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:well in the context of politics tl is already becoming more of an echo chamber. isnt controversial political views like the #1 reason for bans for long time users? anyway for what its worth, in the context of this thread, there are several points that i agree with on blackjack. unfortunately for him, i dont have his kind of patience and cannot be fucked engaging in a neverending debate on an issue thats largely behind us already anyway. i dont even care to explain what the points i agreed with were, because that would require me to engage further in discussion. just wanted to point out that there are probably some people here who are like me. its less about being afraid to speak up, and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people i consider to have a fundamental lack of reading comprehension ability and a lack of understanding of the fact that decisions in the real world involving mass amounts of people require more consideration than "what does this particular statistic suggest we do". reading this thread is honestly tiresome enough, i can only imagine how much worse it would be to have to take an active part. i swear the majority of probably like the last 50 pages of this thread is sermokala vs blackjack with other users chiming in here and there. off topic edit: wow this was a lame 8000th post. ive wanted the archon icon for a long time and then i got it randomly when tl got merged. my archon life has been so short lived Yeah that’s true for you. I don’t often see you wasting your time posting in this thread like the rest of us. But there are a lot of people that follow this discussion and jump in if I make the slightest slip up like failing to use a qualifier from one post to the next. I have to be careful what I write in every post because people will gladly interpret my posts in the least charitable way possible. Meanwhile Serm gets to regularly post the most asinine arguments and never provides any links or data to support his arguments. He’s arguing that it’s logical to conclude covid can be eliminated from schools with the COVID vaccine because measles was eliminated from schools with the MMR vaccine. Just completely ignoring the obvious fact that people that get the MMR vaccine are very unlikely to get measles but people that get the COVID vaccine are basically still destined to get COVID. Just the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments and then has the nerve to insist that “science” is on his side and if you disagree you’re hateful and ignorant and yadda yadda. But all the defenders of science in this thread are silent because they don’t actually care about people spreading misinformation. They care about tribalism and they are not going to criticize a member of their own tribe. What misinformation, what tribe? + Show Spoiler +People here seem more hell-bent on snapshotting something and insisting they are right than anything else.
I don’t personally have the factual recall to remember all the pertinent stats and cross reference them with live policies across a 3 year period. Nor the lack of laziness to look it all up
From what I gather some precautions were reasonable, when it became clear vaccines were considerably less effective versus omicron, that required some re-evaluation.
On educational impact, as per mental health impact I have a certain bias, namely that all COVID did was draw up and expand the areas in which existing deficiencies hit, they’re nothing new.
Mental health provision in my domain fucking sucked anyway, the only difference was more people needed it. Likewise children fall through educational cracks, but it was just more visible.
And once COVID has entirely subsided, how many of the cohort who cared about those issues, still will?
That said, least from what I have seen, in some locales schools did stay closed for too long, based on what would be effective practice, so I’m 100% agreed there. Just to reiterate my post in case you are asking earnestly Sermokala said that we could virtually eliminate COVID in schools if we just mandated COVID vaccines to students. Not only is this obviously untrue at face value for anyone that is paying attention but we even have real world examples where COVID propagates in schools whose entire student body is fully vaccinated. Nobody bats an eye. Nobody challenges this. The point is you can make any claim you want in this thread no matter how ridiculous and nobody will challenge it as long as you're determined to be on "their side." You personally might say that people are not challenging it because they are just disinterested in arguing anymore but people were happy to debate back and forth with me for 20 pages on how effective the vaccines are at preventing infection and transmission. When a true claim like "the COVID vaccines are not great at preventing transmission" draws 10x the ire and dispute than an obviously untrue claim like "we can eliminate COVID in schools with vaccine mandates" then it's quite farcical.
‘No one thinks chickenpox or measles or the flu are eradicated. If we thought that you wouldn't need to get the measles vaccine. You wouldn't need to get the chickenpox vaccine. But you got them anyway and if you'll have kids they'll get them it too.’
I didn’t challenge him on those posts because I don’t think he’s arguing that we could (especially currently) eliminate COVID from schools.
Maybe he is, if he wishes to clarify that then I’ll disagree with that position.
It would just seem odd to me that Serm is simultaneously acknowledging that even with considerably more effective vaccines those diseases aren’t fully eradicated, but you’d get close to that state of affairs with COVID vaccine mandates in that cohort.
Agree or disagree with his positions but they’re rarely so self-contradictory in such a short space of time, so I’m going with communication crossed wires here. But like I said if my interpretation is wrong Sermakola is welcome to correct it.
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Hey, wanted to come out on Blackjacks side, or sentiment, or viewpoint, whatever. What's hilarious to me is everyone blackjack is arguing with is on the same side with him almost completely. He's lambasted as an apostate for what, the point one percent he's not in lockstep on? This thread has distilled to such a silly small microcosm of magnified opinion.
This has nothing to do with the small number of dissenters of course. It's the fact this one guy, who's on the same side, has to get spotlit meanwhile actual antivaxxers roam rampant and unopposed. Like hell, detach a little, people.
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On November 06 2022 00:21 Troutish wrote:
This has nothing to do with the small number of dissenters of course. It's the fact this one guy, who's on the same side, has to get spotlit meanwhile actual antivaxxers roam rampant and unopposed. Like hell, detach a little, people.
Please name any anti-vaxxers in this thread who haven't been questioned or called out.
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