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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better.
On February 23 2022 07:12 Racket wrote: Also regarding numbers and statistics, the moment they started doing separate categories for vaxxed and unvaxxed, but kept using 100k population you can completely throw that into the garbage bin. As the unvaxxed population wanes, its 100k population numbers rise (and for the vaxxed its the other way around). You cannot keep using those and compare both, it does not work that way, like it or not you have to start using different values, even proportion and percentage are better for comparison in that situations.
Why even bother arguing? Just let people be. If they want to be and die, just let it happen. As a physician I think it's fine if people want to choose their own destiny.
My main gripe is that people who don't want to believe in science should not dictate policy or how they are treated at hospitals.
On February 23 2022 09:21 Titusmaster6 wrote: Why even bother arguing? Just let people be. If they want to be and die, just let it happen. As a physician I think it's fine if people want to choose their own destiny.
My main gripe is that people who don't want to believe in science should not dictate policy or how they are treated at hospitals.
if we send everyone anti-vax to mohdoo island (TM) and let the virus rip, having them mind their own business might work. But we dont do that so careless people will spread the disease to those who accept the science but are vulnerable or simply unlucky.
On February 23 2022 09:21 Titusmaster6 wrote: Why even bother arguing? Just let people be. If they want to be and die, just let it happen. As a physician I think it's fine if people want to choose their own destiny.
My main gripe is that people who don't want to believe in science should not dictate policy or how they are treated at hospitals.
if we send everyone anti-vax to mohdoo island (TM) and let the virus rip, having them mind their own business might work. But we dont do that so careless people will spread the disease to those who accept the science but are vulnerable or simply unlucky.
That's my main concern, too. These anti-vaxxers aren't just killing themselves.
On February 22 2022 01:49 Lmui wrote: In light of recent discussion, it seems prudent to post this again:
Natural immunity is great, sure. Nearing 40% of the people in my closest circle have gotten covid in the last 2 months, but everyone's been at minimum 2 dosed, and pretty much everyone boosted at this point. No one I know has caught it twice, yet.
My personal experience with Covid (about a month ago now) The acute phase was mild-flu/bad cold. I had a fever for ~12h, severe sore throat for ~1.5 weeks, cough for ~4 weeks (still lingering). I also had around 3 weeks of reduced cardio. I could do a single sprint (anaerobic), and then I'd be gasping for air the second I hit the anaerobic exercise stage/recovery. Running out of oxygen is a nasty bad feeling, and I was 3x vax'd at that point. Covid is not a disease you want to catch without at minimum two doses. I can see long covid being a thing, and with far more detrimental impacts than I received.
Why do you assume getting COVID with no vaccines is worse? Almost everyone I know who got infected without being vaccinated had from no symptoms to nothing near your experience, only one dude had a bad experience and just because he got the wrong treatment.. twice!! (thank you doctor).
If everything had to do with personal experiences then yours against someone not vaccinated with milder symptoms would result in not being vaccinated being far better. Maybe most people I know got lucky. I guess that is why statistics exists, but given how biased and manipulated numbers have been the last year I do not trust them anymore. The only numbers I "could" get behind (and not fully because they are not trustworthy enough for me either) are those of the first year of this pandemic.
Have you checked how likely you are of getting COVID for your age group, if you get COVID how likely you are of having symptoms, if you have symptoms how likely you are of being hospitalized, if you are hospitalized of ending up in ICU, if you end up in ICU of dying? And finally, if after having symptoms and then recovering, how likely you are of having long COVID?
It is for me puzzling why people talk like "if I weren't vaxxed I would be worse/dead", where does this come from? TV/internet? I would recommend everyone to stop believing whatever you hear/see and first check things out for yourselves, even scientific articles and studies, those are also full of shit. Just as a reminder, millions and millions of people over 55 years got vaxxed based on a study where less than 500 people in that age group got vaxxed, extrapolating n=500 to millions and assuming all is good, could not be more wrong. I trust science, but not that kind of science.
My province's statistics dashboard. You can find similar data for any relevantly large population. Vaccines work extremely well at preventing severe disease.
Of course it is lol. The link you provided is amazing actually (This is how you manipulate public opinion) and it seems to prove his point more than yours .
There are 3 tabs that are of interest for us:
1 Outcome by vax 1 2 Outcome by vax 2 3 Vax Donut charts
1 - First thing we see is per100k rates for Hospitalisation, CC and Death. Funnily enough what we dont see is Vaccinated with 3 doses there, by quick look at tab 3 we can see that those would put vaccinated very close to unvaccinated and in cases of deaths would probably surpass them.
2 - first thing we see is that in by age rates 70+ are not included for unvaccinated ??
3 - numbers here do not seem to work with rates presented in tab 1?? Does anyone know how they calculated it? calculating it in standard way using data from tab 3 comes at around 93 for unvaccinated hospitalisations?? Edit: Never mind only now noticed that those are Age standardized rates and cant be asked to check those.
I don't see what you're reading. The rates, despite the drop in testing over the last month for anyone who is vaccinated and healthy (If you are not displaying severe symptoms, or in a vulnerable category, you do not get a test) are still in favour of being vaccinated. For hospitalizations + critical care, all rate based numbers (especially obvious in Outcomes by Vax 2), are extremely skewed in favour of being vaccinated, with more doses being better. Not sure why 70+ doesn't have unvax'd numbers, but presumably the sample size in that age group is too small. 60-69+ is a pretty good analogy for what the numbers look like though.
If you're boosted and under 60yo, you aren't going to the hospital because of covid.
As for 70+ they have the numbers for them - again see the Vax donut charts tab.
Also - as for "cant be asked to check those" I meant that I cant be bothered to do them by hand.
Edit:
On February 23 2022 09:49 JimmiC wrote: As more and more of them get "natural" immunity the hospitals system should be ok. I want an opt out form, where you can opt out of the vaccine and then you opt out of future health care relating to covid. Perhaps you could pay up front for care.
Lol at this logic. They spend my tax to vax people and because of that vaccinated people are more entitled to hospital care against the disease from which those very vaccine should protect them. Money well spend that was... Logically they should hand out those opt out forms of yours with vaccines. End of the day you are protected. Or maybe you do actually have some doubts about vaccines?
On February 22 2022 01:49 Lmui wrote: In light of recent discussion, it seems prudent to post this again:
Natural immunity is great, sure. Nearing 40% of the people in my closest circle have gotten covid in the last 2 months, but everyone's been at minimum 2 dosed, and pretty much everyone boosted at this point. No one I know has caught it twice, yet.
My personal experience with Covid (about a month ago now) The acute phase was mild-flu/bad cold. I had a fever for ~12h, severe sore throat for ~1.5 weeks, cough for ~4 weeks (still lingering). I also had around 3 weeks of reduced cardio. I could do a single sprint (anaerobic), and then I'd be gasping for air the second I hit the anaerobic exercise stage/recovery. Running out of oxygen is a nasty bad feeling, and I was 3x vax'd at that point. Covid is not a disease you want to catch without at minimum two doses. I can see long covid being a thing, and with far more detrimental impacts than I received.
Why do you assume getting COVID with no vaccines is worse? Almost everyone I know who got infected without being vaccinated had from no symptoms to nothing near your experience, only one dude had a bad experience and just because he got the wrong treatment.. twice!! (thank you doctor).
If everything had to do with personal experiences then yours against someone not vaccinated with milder symptoms would result in not being vaccinated being far better. Maybe most people I know got lucky. I guess that is why statistics exists, but given how biased and manipulated numbers have been the last year I do not trust them anymore. The only numbers I "could" get behind (and not fully because they are not trustworthy enough for me either) are those of the first year of this pandemic.
Have you checked how likely you are of getting COVID for your age group, if you get COVID how likely you are of having symptoms, if you have symptoms how likely you are of being hospitalized, if you are hospitalized of ending up in ICU, if you end up in ICU of dying? And finally, if after having symptoms and then recovering, how likely you are of having long COVID?
It is for me puzzling why people talk like "if I weren't vaxxed I would be worse/dead", where does this come from? TV/internet? I would recommend everyone to stop believing whatever you hear/see and first check things out for yourselves, even scientific articles and studies, those are also full of shit. Just as a reminder, millions and millions of people over 55 years got vaxxed based on a study where less than 500 people in that age group got vaxxed, extrapolating n=500 to millions and assuming all is good, could not be more wrong. I trust science, but not that kind of science.
My province's statistics dashboard. You can find similar data for any relevantly large population. Vaccines work extremely well at preventing severe disease.
Of course it is lol. The link you provided is amazing actually (This is how you manipulate public opinion) and it seems to prove his point more than yours .
There are 3 tabs that are of interest for us:
1 Outcome by vax 1 2 Outcome by vax 2 3 Vax Donut charts
1 - First thing we see is per100k rates for Hospitalisation, CC and Death. Funnily enough what we dont see is Vaccinated with 3 doses there, by quick look at tab 3 we can see that those would put vaccinated very close to unvaccinated and in cases of deaths would probably surpass them.
2 - first thing we see is that in by age rates 70+ are not included for unvaccinated ??
3 - numbers here do not seem to work with rates presented in tab 1?? Does anyone know how they calculated it? calculating it in standard way using data from tab 3 comes at around 93 for unvaccinated hospitalisations?? Edit: Never mind only now noticed that those are Age standardized rates and cant be asked to check those.
I don't see what you're reading. The rates, despite the drop in testing over the last month for anyone who is vaccinated and healthy (If you are not displaying severe symptoms, or in a vulnerable category, you do not get a test) are still in favour of being vaccinated. For hospitalizations + critical care, all rate based numbers (especially obvious in Outcomes by Vax 2), are extremely skewed in favour of being vaccinated, with more doses being better. Not sure why 70+ doesn't have unvax'd numbers, but presumably the sample size in that age group is too small. 60-69+ is a pretty good analogy for what the numbers look like though.
If you're boosted and under 60yo, you aren't going to the hospital because of covid.
As for 70+ they have the numbers for them - again see the Vax donut charts tab.
Also - as for "cant be asked to check those" I meant that I cant be bothered to do them by hand.
You must be willfully blind.
From the pages 41-43 footnote:
In the context of very high vaccine coverage in the population, even with a highly effective vaccine, it is expected that a large proportion of cases, hospitalisations and deaths would occur in vaccinated individuals, simply because a larger proportion of the population are vaccinated than unvaccinated and no vaccine is 100% effective. This is especially true because vaccination has been prioritised in individuals who are more susceptible or more at risk of severe disease. Individuals in risk groups may also be more at risk of hospitalisation or death due to non-COVID-19 causes, and thus may be hospitalised or die with COVID-19 rather than because of COVID-19.
Page 44 refers you to pages 4-15
Comparing case rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 infection. Vaccine effectiveness has been formally estimated from a number of different sources and is summarised on pages 4 to 15 in this report
Vaccines are clearly reducing the number of people hospitalized, and dying from covid from that report.
The report even says so on page 8:
After a Pfizer booster (after either primary vaccination course), vaccine effectiveness against hospitalisation started at around 90% dropping to around 75% after 10 to 14 weeks. After a Moderna booster (mRNA-1273) (after either primary vaccination course), vaccine effectiveness against hospitalisation was 90 to 95% up to 9 weeks after vaccination
On February 22 2022 01:49 Lmui wrote: In light of recent discussion, it seems prudent to post this again:
Natural immunity is great, sure. Nearing 40% of the people in my closest circle have gotten covid in the last 2 months, but everyone's been at minimum 2 dosed, and pretty much everyone boosted at this point. No one I know has caught it twice, yet.
My personal experience with Covid (about a month ago now) The acute phase was mild-flu/bad cold. I had a fever for ~12h, severe sore throat for ~1.5 weeks, cough for ~4 weeks (still lingering). I also had around 3 weeks of reduced cardio. I could do a single sprint (anaerobic), and then I'd be gasping for air the second I hit the anaerobic exercise stage/recovery. Running out of oxygen is a nasty bad feeling, and I was 3x vax'd at that point. Covid is not a disease you want to catch without at minimum two doses. I can see long covid being a thing, and with far more detrimental impacts than I received.
Why do you assume getting COVID with no vaccines is worse? Almost everyone I know who got infected without being vaccinated had from no symptoms to nothing near your experience, only one dude had a bad experience and just because he got the wrong treatment.. twice!! (thank you doctor).
If everything had to do with personal experiences then yours against someone not vaccinated with milder symptoms would result in not being vaccinated being far better. Maybe most people I know got lucky. I guess that is why statistics exists, but given how biased and manipulated numbers have been the last year I do not trust them anymore. The only numbers I "could" get behind (and not fully because they are not trustworthy enough for me either) are those of the first year of this pandemic.
Have you checked how likely you are of getting COVID for your age group, if you get COVID how likely you are of having symptoms, if you have symptoms how likely you are of being hospitalized, if you are hospitalized of ending up in ICU, if you end up in ICU of dying? And finally, if after having symptoms and then recovering, how likely you are of having long COVID?
It is for me puzzling why people talk like "if I weren't vaxxed I would be worse/dead", where does this come from? TV/internet? I would recommend everyone to stop believing whatever you hear/see and first check things out for yourselves, even scientific articles and studies, those are also full of shit. Just as a reminder, millions and millions of people over 55 years got vaxxed based on a study where less than 500 people in that age group got vaxxed, extrapolating n=500 to millions and assuming all is good, could not be more wrong. I trust science, but not that kind of science.
My province's statistics dashboard. You can find similar data for any relevantly large population. Vaccines work extremely well at preventing severe disease.
Of course it is lol. The link you provided is amazing actually (This is how you manipulate public opinion) and it seems to prove his point more than yours .
There are 3 tabs that are of interest for us:
1 Outcome by vax 1 2 Outcome by vax 2 3 Vax Donut charts
1 - First thing we see is per100k rates for Hospitalisation, CC and Death. Funnily enough what we dont see is Vaccinated with 3 doses there, by quick look at tab 3 we can see that those would put vaccinated very close to unvaccinated and in cases of deaths would probably surpass them.
2 - first thing we see is that in by age rates 70+ are not included for unvaccinated ??
3 - numbers here do not seem to work with rates presented in tab 1?? Does anyone know how they calculated it? calculating it in standard way using data from tab 3 comes at around 93 for unvaccinated hospitalisations?? Edit: Never mind only now noticed that those are Age standardized rates and cant be asked to check those.
I don't see what you're reading. The rates, despite the drop in testing over the last month for anyone who is vaccinated and healthy (If you are not displaying severe symptoms, or in a vulnerable category, you do not get a test) are still in favour of being vaccinated. For hospitalizations + critical care, all rate based numbers (especially obvious in Outcomes by Vax 2), are extremely skewed in favour of being vaccinated, with more doses being better. Not sure why 70+ doesn't have unvax'd numbers, but presumably the sample size in that age group is too small. 60-69+ is a pretty good analogy for what the numbers look like though.
If you're boosted and under 60yo, you aren't going to the hospital because of covid.
In the context of very high vaccine coverage in the population, even with a highly effective vaccine, it is expected that a large proportion of cases, hospitalisations and deaths would occur in vaccinated individuals, simply because a larger proportion of the population are vaccinated than unvaccinated and no vaccine is 100% effective. This is especially true because vaccination has been prioritised in individuals who are more susceptible or more at risk of severe disease. Individuals in risk groups may also be more at risk of hospitalisation or death due to non-COVID-19 causes, and thus may be hospitalised or die with COVID-19 rather than because of COVID-19.
Comparing case rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 infection. Vaccine effectiveness has been formally estimated from a number of different sources and is summarised on pages 4 to 15 in this report
Vaccines are clearly reducing the number of people hospitalized, and dying from covid from that report.
After a Pfizer booster (after either primary vaccination course), vaccine effectiveness against hospitalisation started at around 90% dropping to around 75% after 10 to 14 weeks. After a Moderna booster (mRNA-1273) (after either primary vaccination course), vaccine effectiveness against hospitalisation was 90 to 95% up to 9 weeks after vaccination
No I am not. What I said is that they only compared rates among vaccinated and boosted - why they are not comparing the rates of people with 2 doses only? If you can be bothered to check you may find out that number of people with 2 doses and unvaccinated in England is not vastly different.
If not case rates then what should be used ??
page 4:
"Vaccine effectiveness is estimated by comparing rates of disease in vaccinated individuals to rates in unvaccinated individuals"
On page 5 report shows negative effectiveness after 2 doses of Astra Zeneca?
On page 4 report also states: "Post implementation real world vaccine effectiveness studies are needed to understand vaccine effectiveness against different outcomes (such as severe disease and onwards transmission)"
Edit:
On February 23 2022 10:16 JimmiC wrote:
You could get your 50 bucks back for not vaccinating.
I dont have doubts that vaccines make my chances much better, not bring them down to zero. I read and trust the doctors and reserchers, crazy I know.Im happy to pay a small amount for those with terrible luck. Less so with those who have created stupid conspiracies because they dont want too. Then run to the hospital for expensive care they likely would not have needed or needed less.
Eee, werent your main concern though overloading health services? If all vaccinated people opt out (they are plenty protected now aren't they?) - then hospitals wont be overloaded and can focus on taking care for those who didnt cost tax payers any money so far?
As dumb as rewarding those who dont take their advice and holding back from those who do is. The real strange part is that you are concerned about getting somethimg you dont think exists, or is not dangerous. Take the care early for free or take 50 bucks, hell a 100 or pay later. Do you not like personal responsibility.
Edit: ill throw in ivermectin at cost for life.
Bolded: I do hence the entire arguent - you chose to spent taxpayers money on protection, now if this protection doesnt work, do the responsible thing and pay from your own money, dont ask for more money from others.
Italic: Will you quote me on this, or admit to making stuff up?
On February 23 2022 09:21 Titusmaster6 wrote: Why even bother arguing? Just let people be. If they want to be and die, just let it happen. As a physician I think it's fine if people want to choose their own destiny.
My main gripe is that people who don't want to believe in science should not dictate policy or how they are treated at hospitals.
if we send everyone anti-vax to mohdoo island (TM) and let the virus rip, having them mind their own business might work. But we dont do that so careless people will spread the disease to those who accept the science but are vulnerable or simply unlucky.
That's my main concern, too. These anti-vaxxers aren't just killing themselves.
So we're still going to pretend only the unvaccinated spread the virus?
On February 23 2022 09:21 Titusmaster6 wrote: Why even bother arguing? Just let people be. If they want to be and die, just let it happen. As a physician I think it's fine if people want to choose their own destiny.
My main gripe is that people who don't want to believe in science should not dictate policy or how they are treated at hospitals.
if we send everyone anti-vax to mohdoo island (TM) and let the virus rip, having them mind their own business might work. But we dont do that so careless people will spread the disease to those who accept the science but are vulnerable or simply unlucky.
That's my main concern, too. These anti-vaxxers aren't just killing themselves.
So we're still going to pretend only the unvaccinated spread the virus?
On February 23 2022 09:21 Titusmaster6 wrote: Why even bother arguing? Just let people be. If they want to be and die, just let it happen. As a physician I think it's fine if people want to choose their own destiny.
My main gripe is that people who don't want to believe in science should not dictate policy or how they are treated at hospitals.
if we send everyone anti-vax to mohdoo island (TM) and let the virus rip, having them mind their own business might work. But we dont do that so careless people will spread the disease to those who accept the science but are vulnerable or simply unlucky.
That's my main concern, too. These anti-vaxxers aren't just killing themselves.
So we're still going to pretend only the unvaccinated spread the virus?
Why do I get the feeling that I could have said something as innocuous as "Hello again, everyone! I hope we're all doing well!" and you still would have replied with the same non sequitur?
My comment was a response to Artisreal and Titusmaster6, acknowledging that when an anti-vaxxer makes the very common - and very incorrect - statement "My decision to stay unvaccinated doesn't affect anyone else, so don't worry about whether or not I'm vaccinated", it's problematic. No one is saying that vaccinated people can't also spread the virus, but if you're interested in that particular conversation - how likely it is for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated people to spread the virus - I would recommend you reread the conversation the two of us already had on p.581. You had already conceded that being vaccinated reduces infection rates (and hospitalization rates and death rates), based on a source that you had provided. I'm not interested in reshashing that argument, but feel free to argue with yourself.
Here's a pretty cool video that attempts to figure out which factors were most influential in creating the partisan divide over covid vaccinations, and how these variables might impact the United States even after the pandemic has ended.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/immunity.png)
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