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On March 14 2021 14:11 DyEnasTy wrote:
So my family is pretty far down the list to get the vaccine in the future (wife and I in early 30s, 3 kids and none of us have health issues). But I do have some vaccine hesitancy. Do any of you feel unsure about the vaccines? And why get one of the vaccines if these variants are popping up like daisies making them obsolete?
It still generally reduces severity even if it isn't a perfect match. Bringing something that'd land you in the hospital to something you can sleep off over a weekend is a pretty good reason to get the vaccines.
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On March 14 2021 15:48 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2021 14:11 DyEnasTy wrote:
So my family is pretty far down the list to get the vaccine in the future (wife and I in early 30s, 3 kids and none of us have health issues). But I do have some vaccine hesitancy. Do any of you feel unsure about the vaccines? And why get one of the vaccines if these variants are popping up like daisies making them obsolete? It still generally reduces severity even if it isn't a perfect match. Bringing something that'd land you in the hospital to something you can sleep off over a weekend is a pretty good reason to get the vaccines.
I second that. protection > no protection. those vaccines represent at present the best line of defense - as mentioned from severe cases of covid - and that's basically all you want.
massively reduced chance of getting seriously ill, or even dying, that gives a clear path forward to relative normalcy. we are defanging that fucker with the vaccines, that dissipates fear.
also as more people getting vaccinated we also get more data and experience how the current vaccines are interacting with the variants. so there's another bonus.
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And another bonus is that it reduces the spread of the disease, that is less people getting infected. Less people infected, less the chance of new variants to appear.
Looking for perfection from a vaccine is a dangerous expectation here. No vaccine is perfect, while the disease is real and causing massive damage.
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I look at vaccines by comparing the expected probabilities of danger from the vaccine with the expected probabilities of danger from the disease times the probability of me getting the disease. (You could probability add in another factor to calculate for how much you expect the vaccine to protect you)
I would currently put the probability of me eventually getting the disease at definitively higher than 10% with the way numbers look at the moment.
And with the amount of people who have already been vaccinated, we can safely say that the vaccine is far, far less than 1/10th as dangerous as the disease.
So getting vaccinated clearly wins in this calculation. A vaccine doesn't need to be perfectly protective or perfectly safe. It just needs to win in a probability evaluation against the disease. Which all of the current vaccines easily do.
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Recently distribution of AstraZeneca has been temporarily halted in various European countries, but the suspicions appear to be unfounded. This is a good sign though, as it shows that the stance from a number of governments is cautious and they're not willing to put their citizens at enhanced risk.
https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2021-03-14/astrazeneca-finds-no-evidence-showing-increased-risk-of-blood-clots-with-covid-19-vaccine
Generally speaking you have to compare the rate of a symptom between both groups - vaccined and unvaccinated. When you do that and the rate is significantly higher among one of the groups, then caution may be advisable. There have been many reports of adverse effects, but none so far that should give us serious concern.
Even after all this time there's still no evidence that Moderna, Pfizer or AZ are causing any harm to the patients. That's a very strong record considering how many people have gotten vaccinated so far.
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Really hope I’m not offered JnJ vaccine when it’s my turn. I’ll probably refuse until one of the MRNA are available. My wife is a microbiologist and said she’d never consider the JnJ so long as MRNA is an option
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I'll be going out of my way to make sure I get Pfizer, if at all possible. I'm up very soon and it seems to be by far the most widely available anyhow.
Worth shopping around to avoid a second fiddle vaccine.
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On March 15 2021 06:57 LegalLord wrote:
I'll be going out of my way to make sure I get Pfizer, if at all possible. I'm up very soon and it seems to be by far the most widely available anyhow.
Worth shopping around to avoid a second fiddle vaccine.
My wife and I share this view. We have made it this long, I ain't letting my patience shake me now. Gimme the good shit.
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The fact that I would like an MRNA vaccine doesn't change the fact that the non-MRNA are still decent. Fully protective against hospitalization is a solid result. I'm young, my immune system will handle it without a problem if I have any vaccine. I'd like an MRNA booster in the future for whatever variant pops up, whether it's an S.A. strain booster or brazil booster or whatever else is available, but that isn't going to stop me from being at least partially defended earlier.
I'd rather take cover behind a leaky riot shield than pray that a brand new riot shield appears before I get shot.
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"I'll take any vaccine" is certainly the public health official line that we're supposed to parrot, but from a practical perspective, here's the thing: one vaccine prevents severe sickness and slightly reduces your chances of getting sick, the others pretty much guarantee you'll neither be sick nor infectious in the first place. That's a major difference and it's foolish not to see that. At this point I have little interest in any solution whose practical follow-up is "alright, you're vaccinated, now back to masks and quarantine with marginally better peace of mind" which is where J&J or AstraZeneca will land you if that's all you get.
It's pretty much moot for me personally; I live in the US, and odds are very good that I'd get the Pfizer I want or at least Moderna by virtue of what's being made available at this time. But I'm certainly willing to hold out for the best I can get rather than settle for mediocre protection.
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On March 15 2021 11:48 Lmui wrote:
The fact that I would like an MRNA vaccine doesn't change the fact that the non-MRNA are still decent. Fully protective against hospitalization is a solid result. I'm young, my immune system will handle it without a problem if I have any vaccine. I'd like an MRNA booster in the future for whatever variant pops up, whether it's an S.A. strain booster or brazil booster or whatever else is available, but that isn't going to stop me from being at least partially defended earlier.
I'd rather take cover behind a leaky riot shield than pray that a brand new riot shield appears before I get shot.
So long as people without symptoms are having (rare) strokes I ain’t taking 65% when I can have 95%
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On March 15 2021 12:49 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2021 11:48 Lmui wrote:
The fact that I would like an MRNA vaccine doesn't change the fact that the non-MRNA are still decent. Fully protective against hospitalization is a solid result. I'm young, my immune system will handle it without a problem if I have any vaccine. I'd like an MRNA booster in the future for whatever variant pops up, whether it's an S.A. strain booster or brazil booster or whatever else is available, but that isn't going to stop me from being at least partially defended earlier.
I'd rather take cover behind a leaky riot shield than pray that a brand new riot shield appears before I get shot. So long as people without symptoms are having (rare) strokes I ain’t taking 65% when I can have 95%
Unfortunately I'm in Canada. We're going to be rolling out single doses of everything we can get our hands on. There's some studies right now about mixing vaccines etc so hopefully it'd be fine for me to get mrna at a future time when I can. In some ways, having the mrna ones be so good has proven detrimental to vaccination efforts because anything not mrna is seen as drastically inferior.
If I had a choice I'd take mrna, as would pretty much everyone in this thread but that isn't a reality. I'll take any vaccine to recover some of this summer, AZ, J&J, novavax or otherwise. I'd rather an ok vaccine now than an amazing jab 3 months later.
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We also shouldn't look at vaccines merely from the perspective of its efficacy on us, because the effect of bringing about herd immunity has a much bigger impact. As long as we keep safe a little bit longer, infections are going to come way down and so it won't matter how efficacious the vaccine you take is.
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On March 15 2021 12:49 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2021 11:48 Lmui wrote:
The fact that I would like an MRNA vaccine doesn't change the fact that the non-MRNA are still decent. Fully protective against hospitalization is a solid result. I'm young, my immune system will handle it without a problem if I have any vaccine. I'd like an MRNA booster in the future for whatever variant pops up, whether it's an S.A. strain booster or brazil booster or whatever else is available, but that isn't going to stop me from being at least partially defended earlier.
I'd rather take cover behind a leaky riot shield than pray that a brand new riot shield appears before I get shot. So long as people without symptoms are having (rare) strokes I ain’t taking 65% when I can have 95%
The case in Denmark where a person died can not be the example to go by IMO
Over 20 million people have gotten AZ and one person died by some freakish accident. That's tragic but negligible.
EDIT: Just read Germany stopped AZ, too. 7 (non-lethal) cases of thrombosis found so far
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On March 15 2021 18:41 warding wrote:
We also shouldn't look at vaccines merely from the perspective of its efficacy on us, because the effect of bringing about herd immunity has a much bigger impact. As long as we keep safe a little bit longer, infections are going to come way down and so it won't matter how efficacious the vaccine you take is.
Public Heath theory indicates it should be recommended every single person gets vaccinated as soon as possible regardless of which vaccine they get. This model is based on the the average risk behavior people participate in. My wife and I have not gone to any person’s house and no one has come to our house since February 2020. She’s a microbiologist and knows exactly what needed to be done, so that’s what we did. Us waiting for a vaccine is not as risky as most people because most people are whiny and entitled. Tons of people think a pandemic is supposed to be mostly pleasant. Those are the people you want to give a vaccine asap.
On March 15 2021 19:00 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2021 12:49 Mohdoo wrote:On March 15 2021 11:48 Lmui wrote:
The fact that I would like an MRNA vaccine doesn't change the fact that the non-MRNA are still decent. Fully protective against hospitalization is a solid result. I'm young, my immune system will handle it without a problem if I have any vaccine. I'd like an MRNA booster in the future for whatever variant pops up, whether it's an S.A. strain booster or brazil booster or whatever else is available, but that isn't going to stop me from being at least partially defended earlier.
I'd rather take cover behind a leaky riot shield than pray that a brand new riot shield appears before I get shot. So long as people without symptoms are having (rare) strokes I ain’t taking 65% when I can have 95% The case in Denmark where a person died can not be the example to go by IMO Over 20 million people have gotten AZ and one person died by some freakish accident. That's tragic but negligible. EDIT: Just read Germany stopped AZ, too. 7 (non-lethal) cases of thrombosis found so far
I'm not skeptical because of bad impact risk, I am skeptical because the overall protection is less. My guess is the AZ triggers an unfavorable immune response that leads to clots for some people. Another "fuck that" from me. I've been following quarantine directions perfectly for a year. Why stop now? I can wait.
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On March 16 2021 01:21 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2021 00:42 Mohdoo wrote:On March 15 2021 18:41 warding wrote:
We also shouldn't look at vaccines merely from the perspective of its efficacy on us, because the effect of bringing about herd immunity has a much bigger impact. As long as we keep safe a little bit longer, infections are going to come way down and so it won't matter how efficacious the vaccine you take is. Public Heath theory indicates it should be recommended every single person gets vaccinated as soon as possible regardless of which vaccine they get. This model is based on the the average risk behavior people participate in. My wife and I have not gone to any person’s house and no one has come to our house since February 2020. She’s a microbiologist and knows exactly what needed to be done, so that’s what we did. Us waiting for a vaccine is not as risky as most people because most people are whiny and entitled. Tons of people think a pandemic is supposed to be mostly pleasant. Those are the people you want to give a vaccine asap. On March 15 2021 19:00 Harris1st wrote:On March 15 2021 12:49 Mohdoo wrote:On March 15 2021 11:48 Lmui wrote:
The fact that I would like an MRNA vaccine doesn't change the fact that the non-MRNA are still decent. Fully protective against hospitalization is a solid result. I'm young, my immune system will handle it without a problem if I have any vaccine. I'd like an MRNA booster in the future for whatever variant pops up, whether it's an S.A. strain booster or brazil booster or whatever else is available, but that isn't going to stop me from being at least partially defended earlier.
I'd rather take cover behind a leaky riot shield than pray that a brand new riot shield appears before I get shot. So long as people without symptoms are having (rare) strokes I ain’t taking 65% when I can have 95% The case in Denmark where a person died can not be the example to go by IMO Over 20 million people have gotten AZ and one person died by some freakish accident. That's tragic but negligible. EDIT: Just read Germany stopped AZ, too. 7 (non-lethal) cases of thrombosis found so far I'm not skeptical because of bad impact risk, I am skeptical because the overall protection is less. My guess is the AZ triggers an unfavorable immune response that leads to clots for some people. Another "fuck that" from me. I've been following quarantine directions perfectly for a year. Why stop now? I can wait. Everything I have read on the AZ blood clot stuff is there is 0 evidence that the AZ caused the clots and it far more likely just timing. It appears to me fear and not science is what is leading to the decision to pause that vaccine. Have you read something different, if so could you source it?
I have nothing to source since it is pure conjecture. But sometimes in science when something doesn't pass the smell test, you take the safe route and give yourself more time to understand it. That's what Germany is doing. Sometimes it turns out you missed something. Sometimes it turns out it was a coincidence. But the fact remains I have no incentive to take AZ or JnJ unless I think I will change my behavior. No plans to do that.
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On March 16 2021 01:54 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2021 01:24 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2021 01:21 JimmiC wrote:On March 16 2021 00:42 Mohdoo wrote:On March 15 2021 18:41 warding wrote:
We also shouldn't look at vaccines merely from the perspective of its efficacy on us, because the effect of bringing about herd immunity has a much bigger impact. As long as we keep safe a little bit longer, infections are going to come way down and so it won't matter how efficacious the vaccine you take is. Public Heath theory indicates it should be recommended every single person gets vaccinated as soon as possible regardless of which vaccine they get. This model is based on the the average risk behavior people participate in. My wife and I have not gone to any person’s house and no one has come to our house since February 2020. She’s a microbiologist and knows exactly what needed to be done, so that’s what we did. Us waiting for a vaccine is not as risky as most people because most people are whiny and entitled. Tons of people think a pandemic is supposed to be mostly pleasant. Those are the people you want to give a vaccine asap. On March 15 2021 19:00 Harris1st wrote:On March 15 2021 12:49 Mohdoo wrote:On March 15 2021 11:48 Lmui wrote:
The fact that I would like an MRNA vaccine doesn't change the fact that the non-MRNA are still decent. Fully protective against hospitalization is a solid result. I'm young, my immune system will handle it without a problem if I have any vaccine. I'd like an MRNA booster in the future for whatever variant pops up, whether it's an S.A. strain booster or brazil booster or whatever else is available, but that isn't going to stop me from being at least partially defended earlier.
I'd rather take cover behind a leaky riot shield than pray that a brand new riot shield appears before I get shot. So long as people without symptoms are having (rare) strokes I ain’t taking 65% when I can have 95% The case in Denmark where a person died can not be the example to go by IMO Over 20 million people have gotten AZ and one person died by some freakish accident. That's tragic but negligible. EDIT: Just read Germany stopped AZ, too. 7 (non-lethal) cases of thrombosis found so far I'm not skeptical because of bad impact risk, I am skeptical because the overall protection is less. My guess is the AZ triggers an unfavorable immune response that leads to clots for some people. Another "fuck that" from me. I've been following quarantine directions perfectly for a year. Why stop now? I can wait. Everything I have read on the AZ blood clot stuff is there is 0 evidence that the AZ caused the clots and it far more likely just timing. It appears to me fear and not science is what is leading to the decision to pause that vaccine. Have you read something different, if so could you source it? I have nothing to source since it is pure conjecture. But sometimes in science when something doesn't pass the smell test, you take the safe route and give yourself more time to understand it. That's what Germany is doing. Sometimes it turns out you missed something. Sometimes it turns out it was a coincidence. But the fact remains I have no incentive to take AZ or JnJ unless I think I will change my behavior. No plans to do that. I agree with your second point. This first one, at this point just looks like public pressure over fear. Statements like this "Germany on Monday became the biggest country in Europe to suspend use of AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine over reports of dangerous blood clots in some recipients, though the company and European regulators said there is no evidence the shot is to blame." and all the "purely precautionary" talk, I understand in vacuum, because a delay is seen as low risk. But what I beleive they are not taking into account all the anti vax people who are going to jump on this and continue down this path regardless of what the evidence tells them. I mean "AstraZeneca has said that there is no cause for concern with its vaccine and that there were fewer reported thrombosis cases in those who received the shot than in the general population. The European Medicines Agency and the World Health Organization have also said that the data does not suggest the vaccine caused the clots and that people should continue to be immunized." I think the people at the top think doing this will make people feel safer about vaccines if they show they are overly cautious, I expect it to have the opposite effect. https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/germany-suspends-astrazeneca-vaccine-amid-143140057.html
You're right. I think Germany is being negligent and stupid for pulling AZ. This will have a large net-negative impact on our global covid situation.
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EPT
