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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On March 15 2020 00:20 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2020 03:47 Artisreal wrote:
Masks actually work in the right circumstance as we've discussed multiple times in this thread. Show nested quote +On March 14 2020 23:06 Artisreal wrote:
Masks do not protect you from infection unless you create very specific circumstances. As repeatedly discussed here. lol man, this dude here already in a feverish delirium
That is why context is paramount.
To give you a little food for thought:
Masks will protect the healthy from the infected, if the infected wear them and they are not wet.
Masks will protect the healthy from trhe infected if they wear them and they are not wet and don't touch their face more because of the mask.
Masks with higher protection level will protect the healthy from the infected.
Simple masks have supposedly been shown to increase the risk of infection of laypeople due to increased face touching.
They are a tool for professional (health) workers to stay safe and able to work, not for everybody to protect themselves.
Our CDC said in a press conferen that after it has been saturated with moisture, the protective effect stays for roughly 20 more min. Which means frequent replacement. I'm not sure many people do that.
So yes, masks help under certain circumstances, while they are a detriment under most.
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Northern Ireland26088 Posts
On March 15 2020 00:50 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2020 00:28 JimmiC wrote:
I wonder if there is going to be a baby boom in 9-11 months, with so many people stuck at home and no sports to watch. There should be! It seriously pisses me off that the 5k death toll is blown completely out of propotions. I looked it up, and lower respiratory infections cause between 2 and 3 million deaths per year, and between 8% and 9% of all deaths in the western world. This pandemy will not even make a dent in the statistics. When it is time to go, these infections are often guilty of giving us the final push, and Corona is very far from the worst offender. The whole thing seems to be about the amount of intensive care patients, and the fear that the hospitals will be overloaded, but these crazy countermeasures need to be toned down ASAP in areas where the situation is under control. Whole countries are shut down, for gods sake, and it is very unclear what is really achieved by it. If you dig deaper, I am pretty sure those will cause more damage to both lives and health than the virus itself. The social, economic and cultural cost should be obvious for anyone. At least Sweden has not closed schools and sports activities. I applaud it!
I’m not so sure about a baby boom, yeah people will be so bored if there’s tight lockdowns that they’ll bang away like rabbits, on the other hand current singletons like myself are going to have a hell of a time meeting people if everything social and cultural is being shut down
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Yeah I'm very glad I already have a girlfriend, dating will be almost impossible for some time. Although she just asked me to buy lots of bottled water in case tap water gets shut down and didn't like my "I live in a big city without Rivers or lakes, if there is no water we are all going to die" response.
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On March 15 2020 00:56 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2020 00:20 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:On March 08 2020 03:47 Artisreal wrote:
Masks actually work in the right circumstance as we've discussed multiple times in this thread. On March 14 2020 23:06 Artisreal wrote:
Masks do not protect you from infection unless you create very specific circumstances. As repeatedly discussed here. lol man, this dude here already in a feverish delirium That is why context is paramount. To give you a little food for thought: Masks will protect the healthy from the infected, if the infected wear them and they are not wet. Masks will protect the healthy from trhe infected if they wear them and they are not wet and don't touch their face more because of the mask. Masks with higher protection level will protect the healthy from the infected. Simple masks have supposedly been shown to increase the risk of infection of laypeople due to increased face touching. They are a tool for professional (health) workers to stay safe and able to work, not for everybody to protect themselves. Our CDC said in a press conferen that after it has been saturated with moisture, the protective effect stays for roughly 20 more min. Which means frequent replacement. I'm not sure many people do that. So yes, masks help under certain circumstances, while they are a detriment under most.
They pushed the narrative that they are a tool that only health professionals should use after it became apparent that the western countries had very little stocks of masks and would quickly run out of supplies. It's to discourage the public from buying/stealing masks to have more supply for health professionals. It makes sense but it is deceiving narrative. They can be detrimental if used wrong, but the obvious solution here is to educate people how to use them and not to lie about the effectiveness.
The attitude in East Asia is completely different, if you go into public in China (at least some regions) without a mask you will literally get arrested. The public in East Asia has a better understanding of infectious disease hygiene due to their experience with SARS.
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NYT columnist reports a letter shared with him that says it is looking like we're on a track similar to Italy in WA state starting in the Seattle area.
Which matches up with the reports I've been seeing and the Gov indicated the other day that we've already got wide community spreading.
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On March 15 2020 00:50 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2020 00:28 JimmiC wrote:
I wonder if there is going to be a baby boom in 9-11 months, with so many people stuck at home and no sports to watch. There should be! It seriously pisses me off that the 5k death toll is blown completely out of propotions. I looked it up, and lower respiratory infections cause between 2 and 3 million deaths per year, and between 8% and 9% of all deaths in the western world. This pandemy will not even make a dent in the statistics. When it is time to go, these infections are often guilty of giving us the final push, and Corona is very far from the worst offender. The whole thing seems to be about the amount of intensive care patients, and the fear that the hospitals will be overloaded, but these crazy countermeasures need to be toned down ASAP in areas where the situation is under control. Whole countries are shut down, for gods sake, and it is very unclear what is really achieved by it. If you dig deaper, I am pretty sure those will cause more damage to both lives and health than the virus itself. The social, economic and cultural costs should be obvious for anyone. At least Sweden has not closed schools and sports activities. I applaud it!
Well, how do we really know which areas are under control? Hell no one in german-speaking media was talking about spain two days ago, now it´s one of the major centers of outbreak. This thing is just coming, the 5k death toll was a 3k death toll just 2 weeks ago. No one can look into the future, no one can look into the future and tell us if all these measures were overblown. And at which point will we be able to say that they were? What is a death rate you would take and say: " Yes it´s okay that I lost my job and savings over this?"
Numbers right now are so tiny compared to the human population, but all the graphs we have seen continuing on like this will make sure that won´t stay like this for long.
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Washington has Amazon, right? I've read reports about Bezos handling this very badly - essentially Amazon is only giving unpaid time off through the end of the month, and most amazon employees are pay check to pay check (though this isn't true for the corporate HQ, which gets two weeks PTO). And whole foods suggested employees donate their PTO to other sick employees.
It's not a NEW thing (WF did this before the amazon purchase), but the CEO emailing it as a suggestion yesterday was uh, tonedeaf, to say the least.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/93988v/whole-foods-suggests-that-workers-share-paid-time-off-during-coronavirus
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On March 15 2020 00:28 JimmiC wrote:
I wonder if there is going to be a baby boom in 9-11 months, with so many people stuck at home and no sports to watch.
They will be called the coronials.
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On March 15 2020 02:49 Nevuk wrote:Washington has Amazon, right? I've read reports about Bezos handling this very badly - essentially Amazon is only giving unpaid time off through the end of the month, and most amazon employees are pay check to pay check (though this isn't true for the corporate HQ, which gets two weeks PTO). And whole foods suggested employees donate their PTO to other sick employees. It's not a NEW thing (WF did this before the amazon purchase), but the CEO emailing it as a suggestion yesterday was uh, tonedeaf, to say the least. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/93988v/whole-foods-suggests-that-workers-share-paid-time-off-during-coronavirus
Sure does. And a lot of people it has priced out of homes living on the streets that previously lived off the hospitality of pedestrian traffic and volunteer services that have all but evaporated.
It is going to get much worse before it gets better here.
EDIT: Did I mention someone they put in their "quarantine" hotel walked off and got on the bus before he could get his results back? q13fox.com
there's more to it but I don't want to digress.
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On March 14 2020 19:04 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2020 19:02 BlackJack wrote:
I've been coming down with illness several days after both myself and my girlfriend have had contact with corona positive patients at work. I feel very feverish although my highest temp has only been 100.4 F. I've felt feverish maybe 3 times in my adult life so it's been alarming to me. Fortunately my symptoms seem to be a lot of upper respiratory - sore throat, nasal congestion, cough, headache, which seems more like flu than COVID Have you been tested ? That would be an excellent idea...
That would be great but his location is USA
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Northern Ireland26088 Posts
On March 15 2020 02:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2020 02:49 Nevuk wrote:Washington has Amazon, right? I've read reports about Bezos handling this very badly - essentially Amazon is only giving unpaid time off through the end of the month, and most amazon employees are pay check to pay check (though this isn't true for the corporate HQ, which gets two weeks PTO). And whole foods suggested employees donate their PTO to other sick employees. It's not a NEW thing (WF did this before the amazon purchase), but the CEO emailing it as a suggestion yesterday was uh, tonedeaf, to say the least. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/93988v/whole-foods-suggests-that-workers-share-paid-time-off-during-coronavirus Sure does. And a lot of people it has priced out of homes living on the streets that previously lived off the hospitality of pedestrian traffic and volunteer services that have all but evaporated. It is going to get much worse before it gets better here. EDIT: Did I mention someone they put in their "quarantine" hotel walked off and got on the bus before he could get his results back? q13fox.comthere's more to it but I don't want to digress.
Yeah I was reading earlier that food banks and the people they help are having a really rough time due to people stockpiling, doubly depressing as we shouldn’t have food banks propping up so many communities in the first place
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On March 15 2020 00:50 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2020 00:28 JimmiC wrote:
I wonder if there is going to be a baby boom in 9-11 months, with so many people stuck at home and no sports to watch. There should be! It seriously pisses me off that the 5k death toll is blown completely out of propotions. I looked it up, and lower respiratory infections cause between 2 and 3 million deaths per year, and between 8% and 9% of all deaths in the western world. This pandemy will not even make a dent in the statistics. When it is time to go, these infections are often guilty of giving us the final push, and Corona is very far from the worst offender. The whole thing seems to be about the amount of intensive care patients, and the fear that the hospitals will be overloaded, but these crazy countermeasures need to be toned down ASAP in areas where the situation is under control. Whole countries are shut down, for gods sake, and it is very unclear what is really achieved by it. If you dig deaper, I am pretty sure those will cause more damage to both lives and health than the virus itself. The social, economic and cultural cost should be obvious for anyone. At least Sweden has not closed schools and sports activities. I applaud it!
The Italian medical system is near collapse. People are dying from both respiratory and non-respiratory conditions in multiple systems due to overcrowding of hospitals. This is not "just the flu". Your statistical extrapolations are extremely premature. Caring about money and "culture" over the many lives lost unnecessarily due to health system overcrowding is selfish and what led to problems in places like Italy in the first place.
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On March 15 2020 04:01 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2020 00:50 Slydie wrote:On March 15 2020 00:28 JimmiC wrote:
I wonder if there is going to be a baby boom in 9-11 months, with so many people stuck at home and no sports to watch. There should be! It seriously pisses me off that the 5k death toll is blown completely out of propotions. I looked it up, and lower respiratory infections cause between 2 and 3 million deaths per year, and between 8% and 9% of all deaths in the western world. This pandemy will not even make a dent in the statistics. When it is time to go, these infections are often guilty of giving us the final push, and Corona is very far from the worst offender. The whole thing seems to be about the amount of intensive care patients, and the fear that the hospitals will be overloaded, but these crazy countermeasures need to be toned down ASAP in areas where the situation is under control. Whole countries are shut down, for gods sake, and it is very unclear what is really achieved by it. If you dig deaper, I am pretty sure those will cause more damage to both lives and health than the virus itself. The social, economic and cultural cost should be obvious for anyone. At least Sweden has not closed schools and sports activities. I applaud it! The Italian medical system is near collapse. People are dying from both respiratory and non-respiratory conditions in multiple systems due to overcrowding of hospitals. This is not "just the flu". Your statistical extrapolations are extremely premature. Caring about money and "culture" over the many lives lost unnecessarily due to health system overcrowding is selfish and what led to problems in places like Italy in the first place.
It doesn't even save the money. It looks like every major country will have to be locked down for 2 months China style at some point. It's just a question of when do you take this decision - when you have 10 confirmed cases, or 10 000. The difference is in the first case the health system will survive and you will have little losses. In the second case, a lot of people die. The economic hit is the same - the country is locked for 2 months.
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On March 15 2020 01:31 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2020 00:56 Artisreal wrote:On March 15 2020 00:20 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:On March 08 2020 03:47 Artisreal wrote:
Masks actually work in the right circumstance as we've discussed multiple times in this thread. On March 14 2020 23:06 Artisreal wrote:
Masks do not protect you from infection unless you create very specific circumstances. As repeatedly discussed here. lol man, this dude here already in a feverish delirium That is why context is paramount. To give you a little food for thought: Masks will protect the healthy from the infected, if the infected wear them and they are not wet. Masks will protect the healthy from trhe infected if they wear them and they are not wet and don't touch their face more because of the mask. Masks with higher protection level will protect the healthy from the infected. Simple masks have supposedly been shown to increase the risk of infection of laypeople due to increased face touching. They are a tool for professional (health) workers to stay safe and able to work, not for everybody to protect themselves. Our CDC said in a press conferen that after it has been saturated with moisture, the protective effect stays for roughly 20 more min. Which means frequent replacement. I'm not sure many people do that. So yes, masks help under certain circumstances, while they are a detriment under most. They pushed the narrative that they are a tool that only health professionals should use after it became apparent that the western countries had very little stocks of masks and would quickly run out of supplies. It's to discourage the public from buying/stealing masks to have more supply for health professionals. It makes sense but it is deceiving narrative. They can be detrimental if used wrong, but the obvious solution here is to educate people how to use them and not to lie about the effectiveness. The attitude in East Asia is completely different, if you go into public in China (at least some regions) without a mask you will literally get arrested. The public in East Asia has a better understanding of infectious disease hygiene due to their experience with SARS.
The fact about masks was publicly announced and put up on the website of the responsible German governmental agency really early. But please believe that.
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Osaka27154 Posts
On March 15 2020 03:29 JimmiC wrote:
Health insurance companies in Canada have sent out letters informing everyone to Return to Canada by March 23rd or they will not cover Corona related expenses.
Source please.
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Bulgaria - national emergency from 13 March until 13 April. There are currently 41 cases of which 2 are deaths (one 66 years old woman who had underlying health problems and her 71 years old husband). In general, there are about 5-10 new cases every day. Only supermarkets/food stores and pharmacies are allowed to be open. Offices of insurance companies and banks are exempted for now, so they're open. Other shops are supposed to be closed. Very boring quarantine regime but we'll see if it helps. I hope it doesn't need to be extended.
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On March 15 2020 04:01 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2020 00:50 Slydie wrote:On March 15 2020 00:28 JimmiC wrote:
I wonder if there is going to be a baby boom in 9-11 months, with so many people stuck at home and no sports to watch. There should be! It seriously pisses me off that the 5k death toll is blown completely out of propotions. I looked it up, and lower respiratory infections cause between 2 and 3 million deaths per year, and between 8% and 9% of all deaths in the western world. This pandemy will not even make a dent in the statistics. When it is time to go, these infections are often guilty of giving us the final push, and Corona is very far from the worst offender. The whole thing seems to be about the amount of intensive care patients, and the fear that the hospitals will be overloaded, but these crazy countermeasures need to be toned down ASAP in areas where the situation is under control. Whole countries are shut down, for gods sake, and it is very unclear what is really achieved by it. If you dig deaper, I am pretty sure those will cause more damage to both lives and health than the virus itself. The social, economic and cultural cost should be obvious for anyone. At least Sweden has not closed schools and sports activities. I applaud it! The Italian medical system is near collapse. People are dying from both respiratory and non-respiratory conditions in multiple systems due to overcrowding of hospitals. This is not "just the flu". Your statistical extrapolations are extremely premature. Caring about money and "culture" over the many lives lost unnecessarily due to health system overcrowding is selfish and what led to problems in places like Italy in the first place.
I think a reasonable worst-case estimate would be that 100.000 people die from Corvid.
But the truth is, that is the LOWER boundry of a normal flu season. I feel that perspective is completely forgotten. Somehow, deaths by causes we are familiar with count for less, which I can not understand.
Another forgotten one: Respirtatory diseases is the 2nd most common cause of death for people at 65+ in Europe, accounting for nearly 400 cases per 100.000 citizens in the age group:
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Causes_of_death_statistics_-_people_over_65
I am happy to be educated about how many hospitals are actually overloaded, but the death toll should be the least of our concerns!
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In NZ we've just imposed a 14 day self isolation for anyone visiting or people returning home (aside from nearby pacific island countries). A smart move and hopefully a key part of slowing down the spread here. Know quite a few people that are on trips overseas who are now figuring out how that isolation will work out. Suspect we are very close to having employers ask staff to work from home - at least for those that can.
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EPT
