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On October 13 2019 02:36 Jockmcplop wrote:
This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
I totally agree that companies should not be forced to take specific political stances.
I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more.
"Keeping politics out of entertainment" can be economically beneficial for the organizers. And of course it is beneficial for people who want to only keep certain kinds of politics out. And that is why it happens.
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they can't be serious about their statement. their relationship with China didn't influence their decision my ass. i guess it's not much of a shame that i won't be buying any more Blizzard games anymore considering the quality of their products lately.
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On October 13 2019 17:20 Loisl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 02:36 Jockmcplop wrote:
This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
I totally agree that companies should not be forced to take specific political stances. I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more. "Keeping politics out of entertainment" can be economically beneficial for the organizers. And of course it is beneficial for people who want to only keep certain kinds of politics out. And that is why it happens.
Why is it economically beneficial for the organizers?
Because when there's no politics, there's no reason to exclude certain groups of people from the sport.
I don't want politics to be taboo, and political video games should be a thing, but in competitive situations all of that should be left elsewhere. Otherwise sports will just become another version of the Eurovision song contest.
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On October 13 2019 17:20 Loisl wrote:
I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more.
Nah.
Kingdom Come Deliverance controversy shows it is not correct. The game director has righ-wing political opinion, true, but it was not reflected in the game. However, he was also accused of racism because he refused to make black characters in his game. Nevermind that local academic historians he consulted and discouraged him of that were much more likely more competent on topic than the "blog historians" who started debacle. The whole production was tainted from that moment with controversy and in the end both sides ended pissed.
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I am so severely saddened by this, every voice matters but not even Blizz CEO is allowed to use his voice freely. Just signing the document sent to him by China 
Been looking forward to D3 and a possible SC3, was planning to buying wc3 reforged too. But now I just hope they won't release anything I'm interested in because buying their products would make me feel dirty.
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Too bad for Blizzard... What a travesty this is.. Well I won't be buying SC:Cartooned after all. Won't buy WC3 Reforged either I suppose
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On October 13 2019 20:09 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 17:20 Loisl wrote:On October 13 2019 02:36 Jockmcplop wrote:
This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
I totally agree that companies should not be forced to take specific political stances. I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more. "Keeping politics out of entertainment" can be economically beneficial for the organizers. And of course it is beneficial for people who want to only keep certain kinds of politics out. And that is why it happens. Why is it economically beneficial for the organizers? Because when there's no politics, there's no reason to exclude certain groups of people from the sport. I don't want politics to be taboo, and political video games should be a thing, but in competitive situations all of that should be left elsewhere. Otherwise sports will just become another version of the Eurovision song contest.
Trying to excise politics out of anything is fruitless.
Success on the track and field has political implications, public money is driven or not into sports programs. Dozens of Russian athletes are banned from competing at the international level, I wouldn't call the reasons for their banning political, but a patriotic Russian would.
Winning medals at the Olympics has prestige: Nations don't compete for the love of the game. Basically: if your competitions mean something to someone, it is political.
Yes we should try and leave bias at the door: but everything in sport is governed by politics: what the role of the athlete is, what drugs are allowed and not allowed, who is allowed to compete and where. So the emphasis is on try, because ultimately we will fail more often than not: I'm not pro failure, I'm pro acknowledging that failure will happen.
Just an one example:
Jesse Owens won 4 gold medals at the 1936 Olympics and that alone was a big fuck you to the (political) notion of Aryan supremacy. Not just aiming this at Nazi Germany, American was also a very big fan of the policy of racism and segregation.
Back to Blitzchung:
He could have; not used his platform to speak out for what he thinks is right, or spoken out for what he thinks is right.
The second option has happened many times before and will happen many times again, Black power salutes to Bob Beamon pulling up his socks, the ones we remember seem to be the ones whose causes we now think of as right.
Organisers will never be able to option 2 from happening and will have to decide how to react. Enthusiastically support, political, Try and remain neutral: political, enthusiastically oppose still political.
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On October 14 2019 23:02 Kerotan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 20:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 13 2019 17:20 Loisl wrote:On October 13 2019 02:36 Jockmcplop wrote:
This is exactly the problem though. Demanding that companies take specific political stances will create a situation where the world grows more politically charged.
The more politics is allowed to enter video games, the more demand there will be for specific types of politics. All this will do is alienate people who hold different beliefs and divide, divide, divide.
I totally agree that companies should not be forced to take specific political stances. I disagree completely with the second part though. When it becomes more normal for people to share political views and discuss them, they become more open and dovish. Not the other way round. So keeping politics out really only unites people on the surface. In the long run, it will divide people more and more. "Keeping politics out of entertainment" can be economically beneficial for the organizers. And of course it is beneficial for people who want to only keep certain kinds of politics out. And that is why it happens. Why is it economically beneficial for the organizers? Because when there's no politics, there's no reason to exclude certain groups of people from the sport. I don't want politics to be taboo, and political video games should be a thing, but in competitive situations all of that should be left elsewhere. Otherwise sports will just become another version of the Eurovision song contest. Trying to excise politics out of anything is fruitless. Success on the track and field has political implications, public money is driven or not into sports programs. Dozens of Russian athletes are banned from competing at the international level, I wouldn't call the reasons for their banning political, but a patriotic Russian would. Winning medals at the Olympics has prestige: Nations don't compete for the love of the game. Basically: if your competitions mean something to someone, it is political. Yes we should try and leave bias at the door: but everything in sport is governed by politics: what the role of the athlete is, what drugs are allowed and not allowed, who is allowed to compete and where. So the emphasis is on try, because ultimately we will fail more often than not: I'm not pro failure, I'm pro acknowledging that failure will happen. Just an one example:
Jesse Owens won 4 gold medals at the 1936 Olympics and that alone was a big fuck you to the (political) notion of Aryan supremacy. Not just aiming this at Nazi Germany, American was also a very big fan of the policy of racism and segregation.
Back to Blitzchung: He could have; not used his platform to speak out for what he thinks is right, or spoken out for what he thinks is right. The second option has happened many times before and will happen many times again, Black power salutes to Bob Beamon pulling up his socks, the ones we remember seem to be the ones whose causes we now think of as right. Organisers will never be able to option 2 from happening and will have to decide how to react. Enthusiastically support, political, Try and remain neutral: political, enthusiastically oppose still political.
Personally I'm absolutely sick of politics making everyone hate each other (which is exactly what it does) and I don't want that ruining all the sports i like. I've got friends falling out with each other on facebook causing massive drama over stupid unnecessary political bullshit as it is, at least I can watch a game of starcraft without that being a problem.
I just think if you want more politics in sport, think of the worst thing that could happen because of that, and then ask yourself if its worth it, because from what I've seen people would be fine with it as long as its something that generally people agree about but if it gets to the point where the casters of a tournament can remind people to vote Trump or vote democrat or whatever in the middle of a cast it would literally ruin the game for me.
If you agree with that, then its clear you don't want politics in sport, you only want the politics you agree with in sport.
I like the Jesse Owens example.
Go back 10 years before that and much of sport was segregated because white managers and sportsmen were sick of being humiliated by losses to black athletes.
That's what politics in sport gets you.
So yeah, use politics in sport to fix pre-existing negative political situations that are relevant to sport, but leave the rest out of it imo.
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I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
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On October 14 2019 23:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
Personally I'm absolutely sick of politics making everyone hate each other (which is exactly what it does) and I don't want that ruining all the sports i like. I've got friends falling out with each other on facebook causing massive drama over stupid unnecessary political bullshit as it is, at least I can watch a game of starcraft without that being a problem.
I just think if you want more politics in sport, think of the worst thing that could happen because of that, and then ask yourself if its worth it, because from what I've seen people would be fine with it as long as its something that generally people agree about but if it gets to the point where the casters of a tournament can remind people to vote Trump or vote democrat or whatever in the middle of a cast it would literally ruin the game for me.
If you agree with that, then its clear you don't want politics in sport, you only want the politics you agree with in sport.
I like the Jesse Owens example.
Go back 10 years before that and much of sport was segregated because white managers and sportsmen were sick of being humiliated by losses to black athletes.
That's what politics in sport gets you.
So yeah, use politics in sport to fix pre-existing negative political situations that are relevant to sport, but leave the rest out of it imo.
It seems like you don't have a problem with the topic itself, just how it's handled and how it gets people fired up. Any topic can do that if people are sensitive/ignorant about it.
It doesn't follow that wanting to allow a topic like politics being discussed is the same as wanting to allow low-effort content about it like "vote Trump". I want people to talk about Starcraft but don't want people saying "hurr durr protoss is OP" or anything of the sort, I want nuanced and well thought-out discussion.
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On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote:
I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same?
Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others?
Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do.
HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored.
It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead
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On October 15 2019 00:05 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2019 23:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
Personally I'm absolutely sick of politics making everyone hate each other (which is exactly what it does) and I don't want that ruining all the sports i like. I've got friends falling out with each other on facebook causing massive drama over stupid unnecessary political bullshit as it is, at least I can watch a game of starcraft without that being a problem.
I just think if you want more politics in sport, think of the worst thing that could happen because of that, and then ask yourself if its worth it, because from what I've seen people would be fine with it as long as its something that generally people agree about but if it gets to the point where the casters of a tournament can remind people to vote Trump or vote democrat or whatever in the middle of a cast it would literally ruin the game for me.
If you agree with that, then its clear you don't want politics in sport, you only want the politics you agree with in sport.
I like the Jesse Owens example.
Go back 10 years before that and much of sport was segregated because white managers and sportsmen were sick of being humiliated by losses to black athletes.
That's what politics in sport gets you.
So yeah, use politics in sport to fix pre-existing negative political situations that are relevant to sport, but leave the rest out of it imo.
It seems like you don't have a problem with the topic itself, just how it's handled and how it gets people fired up. Any topic can do that if people are sensitive/ignorant about it. It doesn't follow that wanting to allow a topic like politics being discussed is the same as wanting to allow low-effort content about it like "vote Trump". I want people to talk about Starcraft but don't want people saying "hurr durr protoss is OP" or anything of the sort, I want nuanced and well thought-out discussion.
But we're talking about a guy shouting "Free HK" or "Revolution!" or something like that. Its hardly nuanced discussion. I have absolutely no problem with nuanced discussion about politics, but you aren't going to get that at an Esports event or probably any sports event to be honest.
Its just not really the best place for political discussion at all, and I'm not talking about the fans and whatever conversations they have at these events, I'm talking about the players and casters, who shouldn't expect the tournament organizers to endorse their political viewpoint or put out a broadcast that gives the impression that they do.
And sure, sports analysts can analyze events to see what political message you can get from stuff like the diversity or lack of.. of upcoming sportspeople. No problem. But the event itself should not be giving out a particular political message (including the sportspeople and casters who are paid to participate).
This is because there exist some political messages that I wouldn't want endorsed by a tournament organizer, and once you open the gate and allow this stuff you can't differentiate between good and bad.
When it comes to this case in particular, people are acting like Blizzard just randomly decided to make a political statement for absolutely no reason. This is completely wrong. The player forced them to react to what he was doing, and they reacted badly, but he put the ball in their court so to speak.
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Northern Ireland25630 Posts
On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote:
I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer.
I don’t have an issue with Chinese culture being exported, I’d quite like to see more of their rich heritage and differing ways of viewing the world and art.
Nothing wrong with that, indeed there may be much we can learn from aspects of Chinese culture, or Indian culture if they get their act together, etc.
If the specific cultural export is throwing a hissy fit if anyone anywhere in the world mentions Tibet then, no thank you.
One can recognise the authoritarian brutality of the CCP and their policies and resist, or desire a resistance to those actions without making a claim of Western supremacy over Chinese cultural traditions.
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On October 15 2019 00:28 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2019 00:05 LG)Sabbath wrote:On October 14 2019 23:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
Personally I'm absolutely sick of politics making everyone hate each other (which is exactly what it does) and I don't want that ruining all the sports i like. I've got friends falling out with each other on facebook causing massive drama over stupid unnecessary political bullshit as it is, at least I can watch a game of starcraft without that being a problem.
I just think if you want more politics in sport, think of the worst thing that could happen because of that, and then ask yourself if its worth it, because from what I've seen people would be fine with it as long as its something that generally people agree about but if it gets to the point where the casters of a tournament can remind people to vote Trump or vote democrat or whatever in the middle of a cast it would literally ruin the game for me.
If you agree with that, then its clear you don't want politics in sport, you only want the politics you agree with in sport.
I like the Jesse Owens example.
Go back 10 years before that and much of sport was segregated because white managers and sportsmen were sick of being humiliated by losses to black athletes.
That's what politics in sport gets you.
So yeah, use politics in sport to fix pre-existing negative political situations that are relevant to sport, but leave the rest out of it imo.
It seems like you don't have a problem with the topic itself, just how it's handled and how it gets people fired up. Any topic can do that if people are sensitive/ignorant about it. It doesn't follow that wanting to allow a topic like politics being discussed is the same as wanting to allow low-effort content about it like "vote Trump". I want people to talk about Starcraft but don't want people saying "hurr durr protoss is OP" or anything of the sort, I want nuanced and well thought-out discussion. But we're talking about a guy shouting "Free HK" or "Revolution!" or something like that. Its hardly nuanced discussion. I have absolutely no problem with nuanced discussion about politics, but you aren't going to get that at an Esports event or probably any sports event to be honest. Its just not really the best place for political discussion at all, and I'm not talking about the fans and whatever conversations they have at these events, I'm talking about the players and casters, who shouldn't expect the tournament organizers to endorse their political viewpoint or put out a broadcast that gives the impression that they do. And sure, sports analysts can analyze events to see what political message you can get from stuff like the diversity or lack of.. of upcoming sportspeople. No problem. But the event itself should not be giving out a particular political message (including the sportspeople and casters who are paid to participate). This is because there exist some political messages that I wouldn't want endorsed by a tournament organizer, and once you open the gate and allow this stuff you can't differentiate between good and bad. When it comes to this case in particular, people are acting like Blizzard just randomly decided to make a political statement for absolutely no reason. This is completely wrong. The player forced them to react to what he was doing, and they reacted badly, but he put the ball in their court so to speak.
That you need to react to something doesn't mean you need to send a political message, they could have taken their time deciding his punishment if their were unsure what was fitting or they could have (as is the norm with breaking etiquette on air) issued a warning.
They did not, they punished him 10 times harder than he deserved and sent a message to their Chinese audiance that they made sure to protect the Chinese honour.
There has been multiple examples of players pointing fuck yous to the camera, telling their opponents to *** off, being late, refusing interviews and so on. What is the usual penalty? Let me tell you that it isn't to steal all the prize money and a one year ban, that has never happened before.
I understand you want to seperate your sport and you politics, as do I but you know what I take greater offense when players swear at their opponents (or their own team) and behave openly toxic. That puts me in a worse mode and is also looks worse for the company in my opinion than a player voicing a politic opinion (if you believe human rights is a politic opinion). My point is sure don't condone politics in sport, but punish it fairly, with a warning.
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On October 15 2019 00:20 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote:
I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer. While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same? Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others? Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do. HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored. It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead
You make the important point here. HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule and it has prospered with economic and political system inherited from British times. That is definitely something worth preserving. The methods employed to undermine that, and with thuggish violence, just become so much worse considering what Hong Kong had and somewhat still has.
This contrast between then and now is very clear-cut, compared to generalizing it to some sort of western-eastern cultural struggle. The struggle of cultural influence is arguably a backdrop to a whole host of policies relating to China. This specific case is not well-explained by that backdrop. I don't support the Hong Kong protestors because of fears that their loss will expand China's influence in the region, and that could lead to more losses in neighboring western-aligned regions. I support them because I think China's behavior is inexcusable. It ought to be more universally condemned.
Now, you can write a think piece on what a victory for Hong Kong protestor's five demands would look like in terms of the cultural battle. That would be a very different thing than alleging the international support for HK protests go back to fears about western cultural dominance and childish tantrums.
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On October 15 2019 00:20 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote:
I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer. While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same? Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others? Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do. HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored. It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead
I wasn't saying that either culture was right or wrong, I was just saying that the West no longer has it's cultural monopoly. As such, we now need to learn how to get along with other cultures. Especially when we think those cultures are wrong. Throwing a tantrum only works vs weak parents (AKA most Western governments and corporations). A strong parent just ignores the tantrum and tells the child that when they won't listen until they begin to act like an adult.
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On October 15 2019 01:50 Xlancer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2019 00:20 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote:
I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer. While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same? Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others? Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do. HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored. It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead I wasn't saying that either culture was right or wrong, I was just saying that the West no longer has it's cultural monopoly. As such, we now need to learn how to get along with other cultures. Especially when we think those cultures are wrong. Throwing a tantrum only works vs weak parents (AKA most Western governments and corporations). A strong parent just ignores the tantrum and tells the child that when they won't listen until they begin to act like an adult.
Just to put things in perspective here: Are you comparing boycotting a company for supporting a regime which is breaking human rights to "throwing a tantrum"..?
Only a minority cares about having a cultural monopoly. But most people should care about human rights. It shouldn't be a fucking "divisive topic". It's pretty much the only thing no one should ever settle on. It should be binary; don't do it.
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On October 15 2019 02:56 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2019 01:50 Xlancer wrote:On October 15 2019 00:20 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 14 2019 23:58 Xlancer wrote:
I think the West has gotten too used to our own cultural dominating the entire world. And now when another culture rises up and challenges it, We are shocked and respond to it by throwing a childish tantrum trying to get our way. (Democracy is best! Free Hong Kong! Who would ever disagree with that??? WHINE WHINE WHINE)
The West isn't used to sharing it's cultural control over the world. We really haven't had our cultural domination challenged since the fall of the Soviet Union almost 30 years ago. Welcome to the new age where the Chinese Empire actually has a cultural influence in the world again... Time for the West to learn to share now that we can no longer beat all the other cultures into submission with our cultural superiority hammer. While I can agree to a point avout westerners (like me) being used to our way of thinking being regarded as "right" and that "we" have used that to justify trampling smaller cultures in the past. Does that mean that since we have done bad stuff before we aren't allowed to complain when others do the same? Also are you earnestly comparing what the western world has done in recent times with the way China and North Korea govern their empires. Do you really mean that you think the repressed and suffering people of CN NK should be allowed to continue because you think we ourselves as sinners are not allowed to help others? Shouldn't it be the other way around, we did bad stuff, to make up for what we did turning a blind eye as you propose is the opposite of what we should do. HK has been free from Chinas totalitarian rule for a long time, that has been challenged for a time now. While it is hard to do anything about the people already suffering at least it could be possible to support HKs fight for independence. An independence they have in part already been promised through a deal that is no longer being honored. It is easy to whine about people whining, sadly there is also not a single thing more pointless than whining about why other people cares/does something. Imagine if you actually did something useful with that energy instead I wasn't saying that either culture was right or wrong, I was just saying that the West no longer has it's cultural monopoly. As such, we now need to learn how to get along with other cultures. Especially when we think those cultures are wrong. Throwing a tantrum only works vs weak parents (AKA most Western governments and corporations). A strong parent just ignores the tantrum and tells the child that when they won't listen until they begin to act like an adult. Just to put things in perspective here: Are you comparing boycotting a company for supporting a regime which is breaking human rights to "throwing a tantrum"..?
Only a minority cares about having a cultural monopoly. But most people should care about human rights. It shouldn't be a fucking "divisive topic". It's pretty much the only thing no one should ever settle on. It should be binary; don't do it.
Personally I would make that comparison yeah.
What concerns me here is that you seem to be suggesting that anyone who doesn't support the boycott on Blizzard doesn't care about human rights.
I guess that means you'd be happy for me to send you a list of other companies you should be boycotting.
You might be very, very surprised. You might also find it difficult to buy groceries or pretty much anything.
This is an arbitrary tantrum being thrown at Blizzard.
I support the people boycotting Blizzard who are doing so honestly, who admit that it isn't just this situation, but that this is more of a 'straw that broke the camel's back' thing where Blizzard have been generally pissing people off for ages and now this is the thing that finally pushes people into a boycott.
Fine, that makes sense.
Boycotting them for enforcing their own rules and then making a bad statement... Well you're within your rights to do so, but if you don't boycott other companies who have done similar things then its arbitrary, and its a tantrum, its not because you are oh so virtuous and people who disagree hate human rights.
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On October 15 2019 02:56 Excludos wrote:
Just to put things in perspective here: Are you comparing boycotting a company for supporting a regime which is breaking human rights to "throwing a tantrum"..?
Only a minority cares about having a cultural monopoly. But most people should care about human rights. It shouldn't be a fucking "divisive topic". It's pretty much the only thing no one should ever settle on. It should be binary; don't do it.
I never really believed my wife when she said that Westerners were very arrogant. "It should be binary; don't do it." Don't be naive. The world's not that simplistic. A lot of people in the West disagree on human rights. Just consider a healthy mother who get's an abortion, a very large number of people in the West consider it to be infanticide. That's about as divisive as an issue can get...
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On October 15 2019 03:32 Xlancer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2019 02:56 Excludos wrote:
Just to put things in perspective here: Are you comparing boycotting a company for supporting a regime which is breaking human rights to "throwing a tantrum"..?
Only a minority cares about having a cultural monopoly. But most people should care about human rights. It shouldn't be a fucking "divisive topic". It's pretty much the only thing no one should ever settle on. It should be binary; don't do it. I never really believed my wife when she said that Westerners were very arrogant. "It should be binary; don't do it." Don't be naive. The world's not that simplistic. A lot of people in the West disagree on human rights. Just consider a healthy mother who get's an abortion, a very large number of people in the West consider it to be infanticide. That's about as divisive as an issue can get...
TIL: Believing in and supporting human rights is now considered arrogant. Anything else you think we westerners should just overlook because we're so arrogant? The environment perhaps?
You also fundamentally misunderstand what a human right is. It's not something that is open to interpretation. It's a deceleration agreed upon and signed by the vast majority of the world. un.org is down right now, so you will have to make do with a third party source:
https://www.samaritanmag.com/we-have-30-basic-human-rights-do-you-know-them
As you can see, having an abortion (or not) is not on that list. Thus it is not considered a human right to be able to have one, or breaking a human right by having one. The example you brought up has, in fact, nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Again, I must reiterate: Supporting human rights should be binary, it's very much "for or against". It should not be a "divisive topic", and you don't get to call people fucking arrogant for supporting it. It's not often I say this, but you should listen less to your wife.
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EPT
