EPTOn April 04 2018 13:36 KwarK wrote:
I've addressed the making his case in court countless times. It's a fantasy. The claim that he took the drive to Russia is also disputed by him.
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On April 04 2018 13:30 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
My point was that if he was also a defector to Russia, in addition to being a very public "patriotic whistleblower," he'd have an excellent reason to take the drive to Russia and the Russians wouldn't need to torture him for the passcode to the drive.
Could you please answer the rest of my post? (quoted here for convenience)
On April 04 2018 13:13 KwarK wrote:
He literally revealed that the organization he worked for was breaking the law. The assumption that he is a whistleblower is pretty fucking solid. The very most you could argue is that he was a Russian spy who decided to whistleblow on the NSA on the way out. But he definitely whistleblew on the NSA. That definitely happened. It was pretty big news at the time. You'd have heard about it.
On April 04 2018 13:01 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Snowden himself stated that the reason he went public was that he tried going through NSA internal oversight and got shut down really hard. That's why we're talking about the fact that he's provided literally zero evidence for this claim. We have only his word that this is true, when it would be really easy for him to have produced evidence for it. I did watch citizenfour, and there are serious holes in it.
Let's turn to some other holes in Mr. Snowden's story for the time being. What's up with the 30th birthday party at the Russian embassy in Hong Kong? Why'd he take and keep 1.5 million files in the first place, if he only gave the journalists a couple thousand max? Why did he flee to China and then Russia instead of coming back to US and making his case in court? Why did he keep the drive with the 1.5 million files on him when he went to Russia? (Contrary to what you claim, Team Snowden have contradicted themselves on that very important detail. They have said both that he had and did not have the docs with him in Russia.)
Of course, you are assuming that he is in fact a whistleblower and not a defector to Russia.
On April 04 2018 12:47 KwarK wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty confident in my earlier assessment that you're talking out of your arse here.
"Why not just discretely express your doubts in a roundabout way to the NSA, even though you already have the documents showing that they're violating the constitution. Those folks at the NSA are notoriously slow, after all."
This "real whistleblower" shit you're demanding is absurd. He already had proof that they were acting illegally, proof which he already gave you. Returning to the chief of police planting evidence example, if you already have the memo, that's enough.
Snowden didn't need to exhaust all possible internal options to quietly express dissatisfaction with the illegality before revealing the illegality to the public. Quite the opposite, that would be referred to as a coverup. He immediately took the unconstitutional actions to the highest authority he believed in, the American people.
On April 04 2018 12:40 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Of course you don't phrase it like that. You could say, "I just wanted some clarification what we're supposed to do if we encounter [insert situation that will trigger highly illegal actions here]." You don't have to make it accusatory at all! Just play a go-with-the-flow stupid guy! When you get a response saying, "Violate all 10 of their rights in the Bill of Rights, even if you have to buy them a house and grant them statehood to do it!" Well you, Mr. Whistleblower, are golden. Or if you don't get a response, you ask over and over and over again, and you present the evidence that you at least asked. If you want to be a real whistleblower, that's the legwork you have to put in.
On April 04 2018 12:34 KwarK wrote:
I don't know why you think that I think Snowden was firing off emails to the head of the NSA saying "I think what you're doing is illegal, please confirm". I don't think he sent any such emails. I don't think he's a complete idiot. Only a complete idiot would do that. That was my point about it being in the same box as the DuPont emails admitting to leaking toxic chemicals.
It's also completely irrelevant. We know the NSA was acting without oversight, the leaks revealed that. What the head of the NSA might have hypothetically said in reply to that email is moot because we don't need a confession when we have the evidence of the crime.
Imagine you're a policeman and get a memo from the chief of police ordering cops under his command to plant evidence on citizens. You don't need to emaiil the chief asking him if he knows that this is unconstitutional. The memo is itself enough to whistleblow.
On April 04 2018 12:27 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
He should have at the very least had a box of his own emails he sent off raising concerns about domestic spying. Even if they all disappeared into a black hole en route to other inboxes, he NEEDED to prove he sent them. That's evidence 101. When you are making accusations like "top US spy agency has totally broken internal oversight mechanism," the minimum you must prove is that you actually raised your concerns with said oversight.... He provided literally no such proof. the ONLY evidence that we have that Snowden sent any emails or letters or talked to anyone about "NSA is literally a panopticon" is his word. NSA says it has no such records, and Snowden has provided ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE for his claim. That's my point.
He should have at the very least had a box of his own emails he sent off raising concerns about domestic spying. Even if they all disappeared into a black hole en route to other inboxes, he NEEDED to prove he sent them. That's evidence 101. When you are making accusations like "top US spy agency has totally broken internal oversight mechanism," the minimum you must prove is that you actually raised your concerns with said oversight.... He provided literally no such proof. the ONLY evidence that we have that Snowden sent any emails or letters or talked to anyone about "NSA is literally a panopticon" is his word. NSA says it has no such records, and Snowden has provided ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE for his claim. That's my point.
I don't know why you think that I think Snowden was firing off emails to the head of the NSA saying "I think what you're doing is illegal, please confirm". I don't think he sent any such emails. I don't think he's a complete idiot. Only a complete idiot would do that. That was my point about it being in the same box as the DuPont emails admitting to leaking toxic chemicals.
It's also completely irrelevant. We know the NSA was acting without oversight, the leaks revealed that. What the head of the NSA might have hypothetically said in reply to that email is moot because we don't need a confession when we have the evidence of the crime.
Imagine you're a policeman and get a memo from the chief of police ordering cops under his command to plant evidence on citizens. You don't need to emaiil the chief asking him if he knows that this is unconstitutional. The memo is itself enough to whistleblow.
Of course you don't phrase it like that. You could say, "I just wanted some clarification what we're supposed to do if we encounter [insert situation that will trigger highly illegal actions here]." You don't have to make it accusatory at all! Just play a go-with-the-flow stupid guy! When you get a response saying, "Violate all 10 of their rights in the Bill of Rights, even if you have to buy them a house and grant them statehood to do it!" Well you, Mr. Whistleblower, are golden. Or if you don't get a response, you ask over and over and over again, and you present the evidence that you at least asked. If you want to be a real whistleblower, that's the legwork you have to put in.
Yeah, I'm pretty confident in my earlier assessment that you're talking out of your arse here.
"Why not just discretely express your doubts in a roundabout way to the NSA, even though you already have the documents showing that they're violating the constitution. Those folks at the NSA are notoriously slow, after all."
This "real whistleblower" shit you're demanding is absurd. He already had proof that they were acting illegally, proof which he already gave you. Returning to the chief of police planting evidence example, if you already have the memo, that's enough.
Snowden didn't need to exhaust all possible internal options to quietly express dissatisfaction with the illegality before revealing the illegality to the public. Quite the opposite, that would be referred to as a coverup. He immediately took the unconstitutional actions to the highest authority he believed in, the American people.
Snowden himself stated that the reason he went public was that he tried going through NSA internal oversight and got shut down really hard. That's why we're talking about the fact that he's provided literally zero evidence for this claim. We have only his word that this is true, when it would be really easy for him to have produced evidence for it. I did watch citizenfour, and there are serious holes in it.
Let's turn to some other holes in Mr. Snowden's story for the time being. What's up with the 30th birthday party at the Russian embassy in Hong Kong? Why'd he take and keep 1.5 million files in the first place, if he only gave the journalists a couple thousand max? Why did he flee to China and then Russia instead of coming back to US and making his case in court? Why did he keep the drive with the 1.5 million files on him when he went to Russia? (Contrary to what you claim, Team Snowden have contradicted themselves on that very important detail. They have said both that he had and did not have the docs with him in Russia.)
On April 04 2018 12:49 KwarK wrote:
Which is why no sane individual would ever take such a drive to Russia.
It's precisely because Russian intelligence would have no qualms about torturing him that makes the idea that he would put himself in Russian hands with anything of value to them so silly.
On April 04 2018 12:43 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Whatever are you talking about?! Putin's Russia is well known as a staunch guardian of civil liberties and free and fair elections!!! The FSB and GRU are not the kind of evil Gestapo organizations that would say "Tell the code to unlock the drive with 1.5 million Top Secret documents or we'll break your fingers one by one."
On April 04 2018 12:34 Aquanim wrote:
EDIT: Okay, I stand corrected.
For reference, my position is that Snowden started out trying to do the right thing by the public, which I would not precisely classify as "patriotism". I don't know whether that is where he ended up. I don't feel obliged to believe that Russia offered him effective asylum out of the goodness of their hearts.
EDIT: Okay, I stand corrected.
For reference, my position is that Snowden started out trying to do the right thing by the public, which I would not precisely classify as "patriotism". I don't know whether that is where he ended up. I don't feel obliged to believe that Russia offered him effective asylum out of the goodness of their hearts.
Whatever are you talking about?! Putin's Russia is well known as a staunch guardian of civil liberties and free and fair elections!!! The FSB and GRU are not the kind of evil Gestapo organizations that would say "Tell the code to unlock the drive with 1.5 million Top Secret documents or we'll break your fingers one by one."
Which is why no sane individual would ever take such a drive to Russia.
It's precisely because Russian intelligence would have no qualms about torturing him that makes the idea that he would put himself in Russian hands with anything of value to them so silly.
Of course, you are assuming that he is in fact a whistleblower and not a defector to Russia.
He literally revealed that the organization he worked for was breaking the law. The assumption that he is a whistleblower is pretty fucking solid. The very most you could argue is that he was a Russian spy who decided to whistleblow on the NSA on the way out. But he definitely whistleblew on the NSA. That definitely happened. It was pretty big news at the time. You'd have heard about it.
My point was that if he was also a defector to Russia, in addition to being a very public "patriotic whistleblower," he'd have an excellent reason to take the drive to Russia and the Russians wouldn't need to torture him for the passcode to the drive.
Could you please answer the rest of my post? (quoted here for convenience)
Snowden himself stated that the reason he went public was that he tried going through NSA internal oversight and got shut down really hard. That's why we're talking about the fact that he's provided literally zero evidence for this claim. We have only his word that this is true, when it would be really easy for him to have produced evidence for it. I did watch citizenfour, and there are serious holes in it.
Let's turn to some other holes in Mr. Snowden's story for the time being. What's up with the 30th birthday party at the Russian embassy in Hong Kong? Why'd he take and keep 1.5 million files in the first place, if he only gave the journalists a couple thousand max? Why did he flee to China and then Russia instead of coming back to US and making his case in court? Why did he keep the drive with the 1.5 million files on him when he went to Russia? (Contrary to what you claim, Team Snowden have contradicted themselves on that very important detail. They have said both that he had and did not have the docs with him in Russia.)
Let's turn to some other holes in Mr. Snowden's story for the time being. What's up with the 30th birthday party at the Russian embassy in Hong Kong? Why'd he take and keep 1.5 million files in the first place, if he only gave the journalists a couple thousand max? Why did he flee to China and then Russia instead of coming back to US and making his case in court? Why did he keep the drive with the 1.5 million files on him when he went to Russia? (Contrary to what you claim, Team Snowden have contradicted themselves on that very important detail. They have said both that he had and did not have the docs with him in Russia.)
I've addressed the making his case in court countless times. It's a fantasy. The claim that he took the drive to Russia is also disputed by him.
You haven't addressed:
Snowden himself stated that the reason he went public was that he tried going through NSA internal oversight and got shut down really hard. That's why we're talking about the fact that he's provided literally zero evidence for this claim. We have only his word that this is true, when it would be really easy for him to have produced evidence for it.
What's up with the 30th birthday party at the Russian embassy in Hong Kong? Why'd he take and keep 1.5 million files in the first place, if he only gave the journalists a couple thousand max?
