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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

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Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15742 Posts
September 14 2018 22:01 GMT
#13961
On September 15 2018 07:00 hunts wrote:
Imagine if Obama had appointed someone to the supreme court who was found committing perjury multiple times, and was accused of rape, republicans would've lost their mind.


"Obama makes Sharia law official by showing Western values have no place in America"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-14 22:06:06
September 14 2018 22:05 GMT
#13962
The part that troubles me most is that someone knew that these allegations existed(like the GOP), helped Kavanaugh get his ducks in a row to get through the allegations and then hoped that it would stay buried. They knew the alleged victim might write that letter and prepared for it, but never disclosed these charges might exist. Creditable charge or not, that is GROSS for a position that is this power and a life time appointment.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
September 14 2018 22:10 GMT
#13963
On September 15 2018 07:00 hunts wrote:
Imagine if Obama had appointed someone to the supreme court who was found committing perjury multiple times, and was accused of rape, republicans would've lost their mind.


Why 'would have'? Guarantee they'd still do it. Of course it'll never happen because the Democrats do have the odd shred of decency.
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 14 2018 22:27 GMT
#13964
On September 15 2018 07:05 Plansix wrote:
The part that troubles me most is that someone knew that these allegations existed(like the GOP), helped Kavanaugh get his ducks in a row to get through the allegations and then hoped that it would stay buried. They knew the alleged victim might write that letter and prepared for it, but never disclosed these charges might exist. Creditable charge or not, that is GROSS for a position that is this power and a life time appointment.


Yeah the GOP had a letter from 65 of Kavanaugh's high school female classmates at the ready for when this story dropped. I wonder how the GOP knew in advance.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 14 2018 22:33 GMT
#13965
On September 15 2018 07:27 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2018 07:05 Plansix wrote:
The part that troubles me most is that someone knew that these allegations existed(like the GOP), helped Kavanaugh get his ducks in a row to get through the allegations and then hoped that it would stay buried. They knew the alleged victim might write that letter and prepared for it, but never disclosed these charges might exist. Creditable charge or not, that is GROSS for a position that is this power and a life time appointment.


Yeah the GOP had a letter from 65 of Kavanaugh's high school female classmates at the ready for when this story dropped. I wonder how the GOP knew in advance.

And they claim that FBI provided them with that letter too. But the Democrats didn't know about it, I think? But the Democrats totally have access to the FBI file.

This whole process is just the opposite of transparency where information is being withheld for political gain. The Grassly called this a distraction while also dropping that letter tells us everything. They knew about it, didn't want the public to know, but were prepared to counter the argument. They are going to slam this guy through because they can an no one will stop them.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4921 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-15 02:44:12
September 15 2018 02:38 GMT
#13966
On September 15 2018 07:33 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2018 07:27 Doodsmack wrote:
On September 15 2018 07:05 Plansix wrote:
The part that troubles me most is that someone knew that these allegations existed(like the GOP), helped Kavanaugh get his ducks in a row to get through the allegations and then hoped that it would stay buried. They knew the alleged victim might write that letter and prepared for it, but never disclosed these charges might exist. Creditable charge or not, that is GROSS for a position that is this power and a life time appointment.


Yeah the GOP had a letter from 65 of Kavanaugh's high school female classmates at the ready for when this story dropped. I wonder how the GOP knew in advance.

And they claim that FBI provided them with that letter too. But the Democrats didn't know about it, I think? But the Democrats totally have access to the FBI file.

This whole process is just the opposite of transparency where information is being withheld for political gain. The Grassly called this a distraction while also dropping that letter tells us everything. They knew about it, didn't want the public to know, but were prepared to counter the argument. They are going to slam this guy through because they can an no one will stop them.

What letter are you talking about? The one from the 65 women? Here's how Buzzfeed says it was done, pretty unremarkable.



A group of women who have known Brett Kavanaugh since his high school days decided Thursday to put together the letter of support for him — a day after rumors of allegations against him first became public — one of the organizers of the letter told BuzzFeed News.

“We need to rally around Brett,” Meghan McCaleb, one of the signatories, said she told people of the effort to support President Donald Trump’s Supreme Court nominee.

In an interview Friday, McCaleb said the letter-writing campaign began after her husband, Scott McCaleb, got a call from a reporter following initial reporting by the Intercept and BuzzFeed News about a secret letter containing an allegation against Kavanaugh.


Travis Lenkner, a former Kavanaugh clerk who has been helping support the judge during the confirmation process, confirmed to BuzzFeed News that the letter was started by a group of women who knew Kavanaugh in high school and then approached his team about it. Two other women who signed the letter also said they got it from friends.

On Friday morning, the New Yorker reported more details of the claims against Kavanaugh — alleging that he held down a woman and attempted to force himself on her at a party while they were both in high school.

McCaleb, who acknowledged that she is a close friend of Kavanaugh’s to this day and attended multiple days of his confirmation hearing, said the allegation is “really out of left field” and is “nothing like the Brett that we know. At all.”

When the initial reporting came out, she said, a “group effort” began to put together a letter supporting Kavanaugh and attesting that, “For the entire time we have known Brett Kavanaugh, he has behaved honorably and treated women with respect.”

Another of the signatories, reached by BuzzFeed News, said she was contacted Thursday by McCaleb about the possibility of signing on to a letter attesting to Kavanaugh’s character. Megan Williams told BuzzFeed News that she was not aware of specific allegations against Kavanaugh when she signed the letter, but said, “I can’t even tell you how out of character” that would be and made clear that she stood behind the letter. “The guy’s a saint.”

A third woman who signed the letter, Renate Dolphin, told BuzzFeed News she had received the letter Thursday night “from a friend of ours from high school years” and then hung up.

The letter in support of Kavanaugh, signed by 65 women, was released by Senate Judiciary Committee chair Chuck Grassley on Friday, shortly after the New Yorker story published. Grassley’s office had stated that he was not involved in its creation. “Chairman Grassley’s staff was not responsible for putting the letter together,” said Garrett Ventry, a communications adviser to the Senate Judiciary Committee. “We received it this morning.” BuzzFeed News made attempts on Friday to reach women who signed the letter.

McCaleb said the process of gathering the signatures was a quick one, and that women who had attended five different girls high schools in the area signed on to it. Kavanaugh attended an all-boys high school in Bethesda, Maryland.

McCaleb said that she then contacted Lenkner, who had helped her get access to Kavanaugh’s confirmation hearing last week, on figuring out how to submit the letter. For a Supreme Court nomination, those working with the nominee usually reach out to people who could speak on behalf of the person from different time periods in their life before the confirmation hearing.

The White House declined to comment on questions related to the letter supportinxg Kavanaugh.

Grassley’s office said Friday, after the New Yorker published a report on the allegations of sexual misconduct, that Kavanaugh’s nomination will proceed as planned next week.


So it didn't exist in the file until... well it probably still doesn't.

This all means nothing until this woman comes forward (she must be getting intense pressure at this point) and we can judge her story's credibility. But if all we get is what we know then this is ridiculous.

On September 15 2018 06:58 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2018 06:41 Introvert wrote:
On September 15 2018 06:27 Plansix wrote:
On September 15 2018 06:17 Introvert wrote:
On September 15 2018 06:05 Plansix wrote:
On September 15 2018 05:58 Introvert wrote:
On September 15 2018 05:55 Plansix wrote:
On September 15 2018 05:48 Introvert wrote:
So Fienstien didnt even go the closed session where they could have discussed the Kavanaugh accuser's letter, and the letter she gave to the FBI had the woman's name redacted, according to CNN. So... it couldn't be followed up on at all? And she sat on it for months? And the woman refused to talk to Ronan Farrow, the one metoo reporter everyone wants to talk to?

Orrin Hatch on the committee gets it right:

+ Show Spoiler +



The woman, ie the alleged victim, who wrote her the letter wanted it to be confidential. And she was going to hold it until it leaked to the press. At that point she turned the letter over the FBI.

She didn’t bring the letter to the Hatch and the others because she doesn’t trust them. That much should be evident to you. Again, they are railroading this confirmation and didn’t enter the same bipartisan agreements they entered with the Democrats in the past. There is no reason to trust this process or the Republicans involved, especially with something a sexual assault victim who wished to remain anonymous.


She gave to a House rep, who gave it to DiFi, months ago. Then, Feinstein gave the letter to the FBI.

And your theory doesnt make sense even if the facts were right. She's worried about her privacy so she anonymously gsve them a letter alleging attempted rape , but didnt trust them with her name?

I have not heard about that House rep or who DiFI is, so I cannot comment. The person wish to remain anonymous and she respected that person’s wishes and didn't use her name. I’m sure the FBI can figure out what they need to know.

And I don’t know why you are complaining? The vote is next Thursday to move it to the full Senate. He is going to get confirmed. You are going to win. And that first part isn’t true, I do know why you are complaining, because you want to win but don’t want any of the political ramifications of how this confirmation process was conducted. Be happy, it is smother than Merrick Garland hearings and way faster.

On September 15 2018 06:02 Introvert wrote:
On September 15 2018 05:58 JimmiC wrote:
On September 15 2018 05:48 Introvert wrote:
So Fienstien didnt even go the closed session where they could have discussed the Kavanaugh accuser's letter, and the letter she gave to the FBI had the woman's name redacted, according to CNN. So... it couldn't be followed up on at all? And she sat on it for months? And the woman refused to talk to Ronan Farrow, the one metoo reporter everyone wants to talk to?

Orrin Hatch on the committee gets it right:

+ Show Spoiler +

https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1040681575334260737


If this was not the Oldest serving Republican senator saying this is would be more news worthy. Not saying that he is necessarily wrong. But obviously one of the people instrumental in nominating the guy is going to think that he should go through. It would be super shocking if he didn't. This is very Meh.


He lays out why this reeks. Obviously if Kavanaugh did this he should be no where near a bench, but the problem is so far we have absolutely zero evidence for it.

If it is obvious, why not take the time to let the investigation play out? Is there a reason why this confirmation needs to be pushed through this month?



I'm not sure if you are being snarky or are admitting to commenting on a story without following it. And I'm not sure why Garland gets a name drop, these two situations aren't the same, despite the multiple contortions people go though to make it so.

As for why not wait: because we've been going this process all summer, but now, with less than a week before the vote, they want to bring up a new issue, make serious accusations, and then refuse to back them up? Hmm, why not indeed? At this rate, with no one willing to speak on the record anyway, why should it be delayed? What more is to be learned?

and in case you didn't know, DiFi is short for Dianne Feinstein. Easier than typing that. Even though, yes, her last name starts with "Fei" not "Fie".

Edit: screw auto correct

Which house rep did she give the letter to?

And we have not been working on this all summer, you mean from July 9th forward, right? So the month of August congress wasn't in session and no agreement on documents production or release during that time. So for like slightly more than 60 days total. The seat isn't going any place, so why rush it if it turns out to take more time than the average confirmation because Kavanaugh wrote a billion emails?

And the reason why it should be delayed is so the FBI can confirm there was never a criminal investigation or charges filed by the victim. If that happened and Kavanaugh didn't tell them about it when he applied for a government job, he committed a crime.

But, I know why it is being rushed. The elections and Kavanaugh is a stinker with negative approval ratings that conservative billionaires want on the bench.



The Farrow piece Doodsmack referenced the congresswoman, who's been known since this started. Anna Eshoo.

She had the letter for months, did nothing. Feinstein didnt even attend the closed door sessions with Kavanaugh, where such issues could be raised.

The FBI can't investigate because Fienstien gave them a letter with no name. They've already done checks on Kavanaugh, 6, if Hatch I'd correct.


And you are asking the wrong question. Not "why not wait?" The better is "Why wait at all?" There is so little info, this appears to be just an attempt to delay it as long as possible. Of given half the chance, this will stretch on for months. There is not an affirmative case to be made for waiting, unless some evidence or witnesses appear. What will they do, stare at the ceiling?

off for now, bbl if needed.
Why wait?
Because your appointing someone for live to the most important judicial position?

This is not shit that you can fudge and sort out later. You get it right or you don't do it, or atleast that's how it used to work before Republicans went all 'victory at any price, party over country'.


Everyone is being very stubborn, they refuse to acknowledge the holes in this accusation. We are supposed to halt while we know nothing and no one agrees to speak on the record. That's not how you handle this. It seems clear, at least atm, that Feinstein knew she had nothing and now is just punting stuff out there and seeing what happens. Maybe this is for her race here in CA. Nothing should stop until, at the bare minimum, this person comes forward.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43746 Posts
September 15 2018 20:11 GMT
#13967
On September 15 2018 07:27 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2018 07:05 Plansix wrote:
The part that troubles me most is that someone knew that these allegations existed(like the GOP), helped Kavanaugh get his ducks in a row to get through the allegations and then hoped that it would stay buried. They knew the alleged victim might write that letter and prepared for it, but never disclosed these charges might exist. Creditable charge or not, that is GROSS for a position that is this power and a life time appointment.


Yeah the GOP had a letter from 65 of Kavanaugh's high school female classmates at the ready for when this story dropped. I wonder how the GOP knew in advance.

It is a little strange that he knew when the assault he definitely didn’t do happened before he heard of it for the first time in a false accusation and was able to put together a preemptive defence.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-15 23:04:17
September 15 2018 23:04 GMT
#13968
I couldn’t name 65 women I went to high school with, let alone get them to sign a letter in under 24 hours.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
September 15 2018 23:22 GMT
#13969
--- Nuked ---
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
September 15 2018 23:25 GMT
#13970
On September 16 2018 08:04 Plansix wrote:
I couldn’t name 65 women I went to high school with, let alone get them to sign a letter in under 24 hours.


Maybe because you kept it in your pants. Sounds like he got around a bit.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
September 15 2018 23:31 GMT
#13971
What's confusing for me is that everything I have read has said he went to an all-boys prep school. Who are these 65 women?

However, his friend who was supposedly in the room, who wrote in a memoir that he used to drink so much in high school he blacked out regularly, says he doesn't remember this happening, so I am sure it is fine.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4921 Posts
September 15 2018 23:34 GMT
#13972
Considering that they didn't physically sign the letter, it's pretty believable that someone that connected could get 65 people to add their name with these cool inventions like Facebook, email, and text messaging.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18856 Posts
September 15 2018 23:38 GMT
#13973
Right, which basically renders the message that of a chain letter and of spurious value in terms of actually addressing whether Kavanaugh was a creep.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4921 Posts
September 15 2018 23:39 GMT
#13974
And in my defense, I have not used the letter in any part of my argument.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 16 2018 00:27 GMT
#13975
It is a pretty worthless as evidence of anything, so that’s a good route to take.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-16 18:31:56
September 16 2018 18:26 GMT
#13976
So, the woman has officially come forward and provided the full contents of her allegations against Kavanaugh as well as her name and identity.

Summary: Alleges that in high school she was cornered by a drunk Kavanaugh and one of his friends and the pair sexually assaulted her, with a third man intervening before rape occurred. Mentioned this to no one until couples therapy in 2012, which she has therapist documentation from. Documentation does not include Kavanaugh's name, but does include her specific concerns it was a man now high up in Washington, and her husband recalls Kavanaugh's name being mentioned in the sessions. She also took a polygraph on the topic in August (not that polygraphs are anything but pseudoscience).

Wonder if this will change anything. Probably not. "It can't be proven" or "Democrat smear" will be the official R position indefinitely.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 16 2018 18:45 GMT
#13977
Ok then, they just need to find that third man and this will be cleared up.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
September 16 2018 18:58 GMT
#13978
--- Nuked ---
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 16 2018 19:10 GMT
#13979
Good to have clearer data on the incident.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4921 Posts
September 16 2018 19:58 GMT
#13980
We already know who the third guy is:

The Kavanaugh classmate quoted in the New Yorker is Mark Judge, a writer in Washington, D.C. Judge spoke to THE WEEKLY STANDARD Friday afternoon, strongly denying that any such incident ever occurred. "It's just absolutely nuts. I never saw Brett act that way," Judge told TWS.

Judge says he first learned he was named in the letter during an interview with the New Yorker. "[Ronan Farrow] said: As you know, you're named in the letter. And I did not know," he said.

The Kavanaugh classmate told TWS that the New Yorker did not provide him the name of the woman alleging wrongdoing, a specific date of the alleged incident, or the location where the incident is alleged to have occurred. The woman alleging misconduct has requested that her identity be protected, according to media reports.

After Judge categorically denied ever witnessing an attempted assault by Kavanaugh, I asked him if he could recall any sort of rough-housing with a female student back in high school (an incident that might have been interpreted differently by parties involved). "I can't. I can recall a lot of rough-housing with guys. It was an all-boys school, we would rough-house with each other," he said said. "I don't remember any of that stuff going on with girls."

Judge says he still does not know the name of the woman who made the allegations.


He came out and denied anything before people outed him.

https://www.weeklystandard.com/john-mccormack/kavanaugh-classmate-named-in-letter-strongly-denies-allegations-of-misconduct
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
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