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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
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On June 12 2025 21:08 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 20:58 Doublemint wrote:On June 12 2025 20:51 oBlade wrote:On June 12 2025 19:09 Doublemint wrote:
also the irony of sending in the troops to LA to further raise tensions - after doing ICE raids no one asked for, so haphazadly and idiotically. while failing to hit Joe Biden's deportation numbers. America asked for them on November 4th, 2024. Under normal conditions, in recent years "deportations" are about 70% expedited removals (meaning people who are caught at/near the border, just entered, and can be deported again with no hearing), 20% civil removals (e.g. overstayed your visa by 20 years), and 10% criminal removals (e.g. a rapist who also has no visa or green card). The largest category of "expedited removals" is likely to fall under Trump, because there is almost nobody crossing the border illegally now to begin with who can be deported in that way. For this reason, the apples to oranges webbed critical mess of hypocrisy and whataboutism that causes open borders advocates to criticize Trump to Trump voters for not even being as fascist as Biden, makes no sense. is there a training camp where you get to train stretching and turning yourself into a literal pretzel while making points like this? mental gymnastics are out of this world. It's in the data, no? I can't post the graph but so many times. + Show Spoiler +Let's think with an analogy that isn't charged like immigration. Mayor A is elected and arrests 300 murderers. Mayor B is elected and arrests 10 murderers. This is not proof Mayor B is soft on murderers just because the arrests went down. (This is why leftists aren't praising Trump for being less fascist than Biden just because X or Y number.) The number of murders may not be constant. For example: 1) Murders went down even more than arrests, so Mayor B is actually harder on murderers. 2) Murders went down the same as arrests, so Mayor B and Mayor A are equally tough. 3) Murders went down, but not as much as arrests went down, so Mayor B is softer on murderers. My analysis lacking again? Okay. Expose flaw in argument.
where does the line start to go down... misleading at best from your side again.
Trump is POTUS. neither governor, nor mayor, nor the people living in the sanctuary city in question - called LA in sunny California - asked or voted for idiotically executed law enforcement action ripping apart their communities so that arbitrary quotas can be fulfilled. Law and Order from the historically most corrupt White House. (Frum is... but Applebaum knows her stuff.)
courts are working overtime to stem the bleeding from such damage being done. further up I posted about the Khalid case.
keep your hypothetical when we have reality right in front of us. I know you have to grasp and reach somewhere not reality. but make believe is not very solid. just friendly advice.
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On June 12 2025 21:08 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 20:58 Doublemint wrote:On June 12 2025 20:51 oBlade wrote:On June 12 2025 19:09 Doublemint wrote:
also the irony of sending in the troops to LA to further raise tensions - after doing ICE raids no one asked for, so haphazadly and idiotically. while failing to hit Joe Biden's deportation numbers. America asked for them on November 4th, 2024. Under normal conditions, in recent years "deportations" are about 70% expedited removals (meaning people who are caught at/near the border, just entered, and can be deported again with no hearing), 20% civil removals (e.g. overstayed your visa by 20 years), and 10% criminal removals (e.g. a rapist who also has no visa or green card). The largest category of "expedited removals" is likely to fall under Trump, because there is almost nobody crossing the border illegally now to begin with who can be deported in that way. For this reason, the apples to oranges webbed critical mess of hypocrisy and whataboutism that causes open borders advocates to criticize Trump to Trump voters for not even being as fascist as Biden, makes no sense. is there a training camp where you get to train stretching and turning yourself into a literal pretzel while making points like this? mental gymnastics are out of this world. It's in the data, no? I can't post the graph but so many times. + Show Spoiler +Let's think with an analogy that isn't charged like immigration. Mayor A is elected and arrests 300 murderers. Mayor B is elected and arrests 10 murderers. This is not proof Mayor B is soft on murderers just because the arrests went down. (This is why leftists aren't praising Trump for being less fascist than Biden just because X or Y number.) The number of murders may not be constant. For example: 1) Murders went down even more than arrests, so Mayor B is actually harder on murderers. 2) Murders went down the same as arrests, so Mayor B and Mayor A are equally tough. 3) Murders went down, but not as much as arrests went down, so Mayor B is softer on murderers. My analysis lacking again? Okay. Expose flaw in argument.
According to that graph, illegal border crossings had already been decreasing for an entire year under the Biden administration. Looks like the first few months of the Trump administration have simply been riding the recent Democratic trend.
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people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent.
Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of Issues
Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings.
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On June 12 2025 16:46 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:On June 12 2025 16:39 Fleetfeet wrote:On June 12 2025 16:29 Magic Powers wrote:On June 12 2025 16:09 Acrofales wrote:On June 12 2025 15:46 Magic Powers wrote:On June 12 2025 15:42 BlackJack wrote:On June 12 2025 15:37 Magic Powers wrote:On June 12 2025 15:28 BlackJack wrote:On June 12 2025 15:17 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
A car that is owned privately is considered private property in America and thus off-limits for law enforcement without a legal warrant.
[quote]
No worries, mate. You clearly don't know what constitutes "private property".
Ok my clothes are private property too. I'm off-limits for law enforcement unless I'm naked. Like seriously, you think you can run onto a public street and interfere with police that have a car pulled over and you think it's not obstruction because the car is private property? Like why do we have to go nine rounds on the most ridiculous things? Ok we're done here. If you want to be a baby, be a baby to someone else. Pretty on brand for you. Smugly telling me "you must no know what constitutes private property" because you foolishly believe that police can't arrest someone in a car without a warrant and when I point on how ridiculous that is you pretend to throw a tantrum so you can bow out without having to defend your foolish belief. Look it up. Privately owned cars are private property. They're called "effects". Maybe stop digging? You're wrong. Own it. ICE are doing plenty wrong even if they didn't do this thing wrong. Prove that I'm wrong. This argument has gone off the rails, though. If "You're wrong" is proving that a car isn't private property, it won't happen. That's not what at's stake though - We're on the tail end of a thread that started from Kwark claiming it isn't obstruction if there isn't a warrant, and we're currently at "can police enter cars" which is a ridiculous place to be. Yes police can enter cars if they can prove probable cause etc. That could be irrelevant for this argument because we're talking about ICE not 'the police', which may well have different guidelines that do not include 'probable cause'. It seems reasonable to consider it obstruction of justice if someone physically blocks the doorway to a home to prevent police from entering and arresting someone who just obviously committed a crime. That seems incredibly straightforward. If you want to make the case that it wasn't what happened and ICE is at fault in this scenario, don't let BJ pull you off track into this odd tangent of police and cars. Stick with ICE and pregnant people in this specific scenario. I disagree, I think It's time to make it as difficult as possible for all right-wingers at every step. Every single thing they say must be scrutinized to death, and it's no longer time for leniency. They've crossed too many lines so it's time that they face the consequences of their actions. One consequence must be that they can't say a single sentence unless they've proven it 100 times over. People will lose patience with you and ignore you a million times sooner than they'll ignore your opponents. You can watch that happen in real time here, if you'd like. Just continue as you are.
That's exactly what Sartre meant when he said "If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." Better to get the truth out there so undecided people can see it, even if the far-right knows they're wrong and don't care.
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On June 12 2025 08:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 12 2025 07:47 Jankisa wrote:I think it greatly depends on the topic. GH is an annoying cosplayer who is completely uninterested in having any sort of a real discussion because he thinks he's above it, all of us who engage in any realpolitk are morons who don't understand that his way is the only way and doing anything that he doesn't agree with is a big waste of time, ironically, he's not really doing anything so there's that. The split personality saga was so annoying that it might paint people here as overly aggressive and angry at him, to me, at least in this thread he's relatively benign, pushing his own little agendas and criticisms and living his best far leftie life. On the other hand, his takes in the Palestine and Ukraine threads are extremely obnoxious and aggravating. + Show Spoiler +oBlade is just a weird little dude who much like him thinks he's the only one who figured things out, in a really weird twist he gets most of his takes from Tucker Carlson who might be the most fake person in the history of media so there's that.
Also, as a personal pet peeve, oBlade thinks he's funny which makes him much worse. Also, fascist bootlicking. Your emotionally lashing out with personal attacks is pretty standard around here. There's actually a wide spectrum of ideas that I have mixed feelings about and would be thrilled to have a real discussion on. They just aren't really reformism/electoralism for reasons I've laid out at length. That said, no one wants to develop/contribute to the best plan for Democrats to win electorally anyway. Lots of people here are better educated and probably more capable in a host of intellectual tasks than I am. We all literally think the politics we have are the best we can have (maybe you guys intentionally have shitty politics?). I'm sure people have noticed I post significantly less than I did at my peak, in part, because I'm doing more in my communities that aren't TL. You guys can keep your little mean girl routine up as long as you'd like though. Discuss them then, nobody is stopping you. + Show Spoiler +
I don’t especially disagree with your critiques of reformism at all. I think the problem with your ‘best plan’ is it’s not couched in reality. I’m more team Kwark on this. If Obamacare is too socialist for many, and you’ve voted in a Fascist strongman twice, then said nation to me would not be a prime candidate for me to flip to genuine left wing politics. I don’t think a polity can simultaneously be primed for a leftist revolution, while being Fascist-adjacent at the same time.
If attempts to do so keep on losing, then at some point one has to accept you’re a leftist living in an avowedly right wing country. If there’s some signs of the opposite, great maybe not.
Myself, I’m waiting for the dust to settle a bit. If leftist candidates start making inroads, even if they’re merely performing better than expected and don’t actually win, you’re getting some data that there’s some receptiveness there. If they aren’t, consistently then I’d find it hard to argue that, at least pragmatically that it’s a good plan to pivot left.
A main part of the point I've made is that the libs/Dems/ilk that believe in electoralism aren't discussing how they are making it work now among themselves. So much so, that months later, instead of pointing to their better plan and their discussion of it, they still typically just attack me personally instead.
Despite not being able to vote and taking a "wait and see" approach (that's definitively not how you get off the path of fascism), you're more engaged on the topic than any of the posters that can vote and need to be discussing/taking actions that will take the US off the path of self-destructive fascism.
I'd like to see the libs/Dems/ilk that believe in electoralism discuss it like they actually believe in it beyond just rationalizing bad policy and spamming to vote blue no matter who when it gets to a general.
They insist I'm not worthy of discussing that with them (while still demanding my vote), that's fine, I'm pointing out they don't discuss it among themselves here either. Libs/Dems/ilk prefer to do the arguing with squirrels in the park thing.
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Electoralism can coexist with protests, grassroot information spreading, etc. So what are you proposing that's different?
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On June 12 2025 21:24 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 21:08 oBlade wrote:On June 12 2025 20:58 Doublemint wrote:On June 12 2025 20:51 oBlade wrote:On June 12 2025 19:09 Doublemint wrote:
also the irony of sending in the troops to LA to further raise tensions - after doing ICE raids no one asked for, so haphazadly and idiotically. while failing to hit Joe Biden's deportation numbers. America asked for them on November 4th, 2024. Under normal conditions, in recent years "deportations" are about 70% expedited removals (meaning people who are caught at/near the border, just entered, and can be deported again with no hearing), 20% civil removals (e.g. overstayed your visa by 20 years), and 10% criminal removals (e.g. a rapist who also has no visa or green card). The largest category of "expedited removals" is likely to fall under Trump, because there is almost nobody crossing the border illegally now to begin with who can be deported in that way. For this reason, the apples to oranges webbed critical mess of hypocrisy and whataboutism that causes open borders advocates to criticize Trump to Trump voters for not even being as fascist as Biden, makes no sense. is there a training camp where you get to train stretching and turning yourself into a literal pretzel while making points like this? mental gymnastics are out of this world. It's in the data, no? I can't post the graph but so many times. + Show Spoiler +Let's think with an analogy that isn't charged like immigration. Mayor A is elected and arrests 300 murderers. Mayor B is elected and arrests 10 murderers. This is not proof Mayor B is soft on murderers just because the arrests went down. (This is why leftists aren't praising Trump for being less fascist than Biden just because X or Y number.) The number of murders may not be constant. For example: 1) Murders went down even more than arrests, so Mayor B is actually harder on murderers. 2) Murders went down the same as arrests, so Mayor B and Mayor A are equally tough. 3) Murders went down, but not as much as arrests went down, so Mayor B is softer on murderers. My analysis lacking again? Okay. Expose flaw in argument. where does the line start to go down... misleading at best from your side again. Trump is POTUS. neither governor, nor mayor, nor the people living in the sanctuary city in question - called LA in sunny California - asked or voted for idiotically executed law enforcement action ripping apart their communities so that arbitrary quotas can be fulfilled. Law and Order from the historically most corrupt White House. (Frum is... but Applebaum knows her stuff.)
The line starts to go down around when Texas started to block things by themselves and the time the 2024 General Election ramped up which is the key 10% of the time that they pretended to care about immigration.
The ICE raids are not up to any of those people. You're off no one voted for it to no one that counts voted for it. The people who it was up to, voted for it. Other than that you can't vote for or against it to begin with. Like if a police officer stops you for DUI you can't say "I didn't vote for this." It's irrelevant because it's not in the category of things that are voteable-for. Just absurd. Representatives voted for DUI laws, they voted for a sheriff, and the sheriff trained people to patrol and catch people including DUI.
On June 12 2025 21:24 Doublemint wrote:
courts are working overtime to stem the bleeding from such damage being done. further up I posted about the Khalid case.
keep your hypothetical when we have reality right in front of us. I know you have to grasp and reach somewhere not reality. but make believe is not very solid. just friendly advice.
That was okay possibly characterizable as a hypothetical but more of an analogy to get you to see a point. Let me try another.
Say you have Hospital A and they cure 1000 people in a year. The next year, new management takes over and they rebrand as Hospital B. They cure just 600 people. They are doing less curing obviously, which means they are doing a worse job.
What the data doesn't show is Hospital A cured 700 flu and 300 cancer cases. Hospital B cured 100 flu cases and 500 cancer cases. They only had 100 flu cases because of an amazing vaccine program they launched, so they could focus resources on cancer patients instead, which are let's say more difficult.
Did Hospital A do more "total curing?" Yes. Does that tell the whole story? No. The vaccine and cancer focus were much more successful.
So apply this to immigration.
See the graph where it's 250,000 border crossers in a month? Suppose Biden deports half of them. Then suppose Trump deports 100% of the 8000 that came in one month.
125,000 vs 8,000 seems clear right? Obviously Biden is doing more deporting. Wow math! Why though? Trump can't deport people who aren't coming. It's very easy to deport someone you pick up 1 mile north of the border in less than 2 weeks with no hearing. It's less easy if they aren't there. Because an entire subset of cases of people to deport basically doesn't exist anymore to begin with, because Trump rode the coattails of Biden's fantastic border security. That sealing of the border, that's the vaccine that reduces the need to cure any of the easy flu cases. If deportation "totals" are down it's very easy to explain this way.
You obviously believe the nature of Biden and Trump's deportations have some difference, which is why you think Trump is the bad one despite he's deporting numerically less (I actually haven't looked at any figures that you didn't provide so I'm just taking this on faith, if you link your actual objective numbers we can explore whether it's plausible or whether Trump is really slacking on deportations compared to the strict and genius Biden). But he's ramping up and making quotas for the harder cases, which are the interior ones.
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On June 12 2025 21:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:On June 12 2025 16:39 Fleetfeet wrote:On June 12 2025 16:29 Magic Powers wrote:On June 12 2025 16:09 Acrofales wrote:On June 12 2025 15:46 Magic Powers wrote:On June 12 2025 15:42 BlackJack wrote:On June 12 2025 15:37 Magic Powers wrote:On June 12 2025 15:28 BlackJack wrote:On June 12 2025 15:17 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
A car that is owned privately is considered private property in America and thus off-limits for law enforcement without a legal warrant.
[quote]
No worries, mate. You clearly don't know what constitutes "private property".
Ok my clothes are private property too. I'm off-limits for law enforcement unless I'm naked. Like seriously, you think you can run onto a public street and interfere with police that have a car pulled over and you think it's not obstruction because the car is private property? Like why do we have to go nine rounds on the most ridiculous things? Ok we're done here. If you want to be a baby, be a baby to someone else. Pretty on brand for you. Smugly telling me "you must no know what constitutes private property" because you foolishly believe that police can't arrest someone in a car without a warrant and when I point on how ridiculous that is you pretend to throw a tantrum so you can bow out without having to defend your foolish belief. Look it up. Privately owned cars are private property. They're called "effects". Maybe stop digging? You're wrong. Own it. ICE are doing plenty wrong even if they didn't do this thing wrong. Prove that I'm wrong. This argument has gone off the rails, though. If "You're wrong" is proving that a car isn't private property, it won't happen. That's not what at's stake though - We're on the tail end of a thread that started from Kwark claiming it isn't obstruction if there isn't a warrant, and we're currently at "can police enter cars" which is a ridiculous place to be. Yes police can enter cars if they can prove probable cause etc. That could be irrelevant for this argument because we're talking about ICE not 'the police', which may well have different guidelines that do not include 'probable cause'. It seems reasonable to consider it obstruction of justice if someone physically blocks the doorway to a home to prevent police from entering and arresting someone who just obviously committed a crime. That seems incredibly straightforward. If you want to make the case that it wasn't what happened and ICE is at fault in this scenario, don't let BJ pull you off track into this odd tangent of police and cars. Stick with ICE and pregnant people in this specific scenario. I disagree, I think It's time to make it as difficult as possible for all right-wingers at every step. Every single thing they say must be scrutinized to death, and it's no longer time for leniency. They've crossed too many lines so it's time that they face the consequences of their actions. One consequence must be that they can't say a single sentence unless they've proven it 100 times over. This would be incredibly annoying, and I dare say possibly counter-productive. While I agree with how you phrased it in a subsequent post 100%, here you somehow ended up down a cul de sac where you basically ended up arguing that the police is so restricted that it wouldn’t realistically be able to fulfil its function. Outsiders observing that won’t be leaving with the takeaway that your angle was the convincing one. Or a desirable one. As a rhetorical technique it really only serves two functions: 1. You’re 100% right, the other is 0% right and you cut to the chase and through the bullshit by bringing it back to some pertinent core point. 2. It’s a deflecting technique to continually derail where a discussion is going and bring it back to some pedantic point again and again, until one loses patience.
I understand the desire for civility, but at this point I think it's time to realize that civility has no impact on winning or losing.
The right-wing isn't growing because they're so charming and civil. They're growing because they've opened the floodgates of information. They simply drown out opposite information with their own. It's not about winning or losing arguments. It's all about volume.
That's how Trump and other fascists around the globe have kept growing their movements in recent years. Just consistent propaganda at every step. Their strategy works. And it works not in spite of us trying to remain civil - it works in part because of it. To be civil means to be above dirty tactics, and thus limiting oneself. Right-wingers are not above dirty tactics, and that's how they keep winning. They create more volume.
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Northern Ireland24877 Posts
On June 12 2025 21:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 08:51 WombaT wrote:On June 12 2025 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 12 2025 07:47 Jankisa wrote:I think it greatly depends on the topic. GH is an annoying cosplayer who is completely uninterested in having any sort of a real discussion because he thinks he's above it, all of us who engage in any realpolitk are morons who don't understand that his way is the only way and doing anything that he doesn't agree with is a big waste of time, ironically, he's not really doing anything so there's that. The split personality saga was so annoying that it might paint people here as overly aggressive and angry at him, to me, at least in this thread he's relatively benign, pushing his own little agendas and criticisms and living his best far leftie life. On the other hand, his takes in the Palestine and Ukraine threads are extremely obnoxious and aggravating. + Show Spoiler +oBlade is just a weird little dude who much like him thinks he's the only one who figured things out, in a really weird twist he gets most of his takes from Tucker Carlson who might be the most fake person in the history of media so there's that.
Also, as a personal pet peeve, oBlade thinks he's funny which makes him much worse. Also, fascist bootlicking. Your emotionally lashing out with personal attacks is pretty standard around here. There's actually a wide spectrum of ideas that I have mixed feelings about and would be thrilled to have a real discussion on. They just aren't really reformism/electoralism for reasons I've laid out at length. That said, no one wants to develop/contribute to the best plan for Democrats to win electorally anyway. Lots of people here are better educated and probably more capable in a host of intellectual tasks than I am. We all literally think the politics we have are the best we can have (maybe you guys intentionally have shitty politics?). I'm sure people have noticed I post significantly less than I did at my peak, in part, because I'm doing more in my communities that aren't TL. You guys can keep your little mean girl routine up as long as you'd like though. Discuss them then, nobody is stopping you. + Show Spoiler +
I don’t especially disagree with your critiques of reformism at all. I think the problem with your ‘best plan’ is it’s not couched in reality. I’m more team Kwark on this. If Obamacare is too socialist for many, and you’ve voted in a Fascist strongman twice, then said nation to me would not be a prime candidate for me to flip to genuine left wing politics. I don’t think a polity can simultaneously be primed for a leftist revolution, while being Fascist-adjacent at the same time.
If attempts to do so keep on losing, then at some point one has to accept you’re a leftist living in an avowedly right wing country. If there’s some signs of the opposite, great maybe not.
Myself, I’m waiting for the dust to settle a bit. If leftist candidates start making inroads, even if they’re merely performing better than expected and don’t actually win, you’re getting some data that there’s some receptiveness there. If they aren’t, consistently then I’d find it hard to argue that, at least pragmatically that it’s a good plan to pivot left. A main part of the point I've made is that the libs/Dems/ilk that believe in electoralism aren't discussing how they are making it work now among themselves. So much so, that months later, instead of pointing to their better plan and their discussion of it, they still typically just attack me personally instead. Despite not being able to vote and taking a "wait and see" approach (that's definitively not how you get off the path of fascism), you're more engaged on the topic than any of the posters that can vote and need to be discussing/taking actions that will take the US off the path of self-destructive fascism. I'd like to see the libs/Dems/ilk that believe in electoralism discuss it like they actually believe in it beyond just rationalizing bad policy and spamming to vote blue no matter who when it gets to a general. They insist I'm not worthy of discussing that with them (while still demanding my vote), that's fine, I'm pointing out they don't discuss it among themselves here either. Libs/Dems/ilk prefer to do the arguing with squirrels in the park thing.
‘Wait and see’ informs the plan. It’s not a substitute for it. Maybe vast swathes of the country are sick of the GOP and mainstream Democratic politics and want a proper departure. Maybe they don’t, and a return to Biden-era respectability is the height of ambition there. Maybe it’s both and just varies hugely by state or other locale.
Until we get a clearer sense of that collectively, how does one plan a counter-punch? I might have a fantastic plan to push and elevate leftist candidates across the nation. It doesn’t matter how good the plan is if there’s a huge amount of hostility towards genuine leftist politics.
For me electoralism and legalistic frameworks are far, far better at keeping Fascists from power, than it is in dealing with them when they are in power. Which greatly informed my pre-election positions, and I think we’re seeing borne out subsequently in real time.
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On June 12 2025 21:41 Doublemint wrote:people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent. Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of IssuesShow nested quote + Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings.
Then the people are stupid. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do. (+ a bunch of corruption he didn't say before, of course)
It is just that what he said he would do, and what he is doing now, is profoundly idiotic and doesn't actually solve the problems he claims it would solve, which was obvious to anyone with even half a brain.
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On June 12 2025 23:44 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 21:41 Doublemint wrote:people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent. Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of Issues Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings. Then the people are stupid. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do. (+ a bunch of corruption he didn't say before, of course) It is just that what he said he would do, and what he is doing now, is profoundly idiotic and doesn't actually solve the problems he claims it would solve, which was obvious to anyone with even half a brain.
Very well said. People are not surprised that Trump is doing any of what he's doing. They're surprised that some of it is backfiring. They thought they were inherently immune from fallout just because they were on Trump's team.
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On June 12 2025 23:44 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 21:41 Doublemint wrote:people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent. Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of Issues Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings. Then the people are stupid. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do. (+ a bunch of corruption he didn't say before, of course) It is just that what he said he would do, and what he is doing now, is profoundly idiotic and doesn't actually solve the problems he claims it would solve, which was obvious to anyone with even half a brain.
The amount of people who think tariffs are a tax on foreign countries is staggering.
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On June 12 2025 23:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 21:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 12 2025 08:51 WombaT wrote:On June 12 2025 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 12 2025 07:47 Jankisa wrote:I think it greatly depends on the topic. GH is an annoying cosplayer who is completely uninterested in having any sort of a real discussion because he thinks he's above it, all of us who engage in any realpolitk are morons who don't understand that his way is the only way and doing anything that he doesn't agree with is a big waste of time, ironically, he's not really doing anything so there's that. The split personality saga was so annoying that it might paint people here as overly aggressive and angry at him, to me, at least in this thread he's relatively benign, pushing his own little agendas and criticisms and living his best far leftie life. On the other hand, his takes in the Palestine and Ukraine threads are extremely obnoxious and aggravating. + Show Spoiler +oBlade is just a weird little dude who much like him thinks he's the only one who figured things out, in a really weird twist he gets most of his takes from Tucker Carlson who might be the most fake person in the history of media so there's that.
Also, as a personal pet peeve, oBlade thinks he's funny which makes him much worse. Also, fascist bootlicking. Your emotionally lashing out with personal attacks is pretty standard around here. There's actually a wide spectrum of ideas that I have mixed feelings about and would be thrilled to have a real discussion on. They just aren't really reformism/electoralism for reasons I've laid out at length. That said, no one wants to develop/contribute to the best plan for Democrats to win electorally anyway. Lots of people here are better educated and probably more capable in a host of intellectual tasks than I am. We all literally think the politics we have are the best we can have (maybe you guys intentionally have shitty politics?). I'm sure people have noticed I post significantly less than I did at my peak, in part, because I'm doing more in my communities that aren't TL. You guys can keep your little mean girl routine up as long as you'd like though. Discuss them then, nobody is stopping you. + Show Spoiler +
I don’t especially disagree with your critiques of reformism at all. I think the problem with your ‘best plan’ is it’s not couched in reality. I’m more team Kwark on this. If Obamacare is too socialist for many, and you’ve voted in a Fascist strongman twice, then said nation to me would not be a prime candidate for me to flip to genuine left wing politics. I don’t think a polity can simultaneously be primed for a leftist revolution, while being Fascist-adjacent at the same time.
If attempts to do so keep on losing, then at some point one has to accept you’re a leftist living in an avowedly right wing country. If there’s some signs of the opposite, great maybe not.
Myself, I’m waiting for the dust to settle a bit. If leftist candidates start making inroads, even if they’re merely performing better than expected and don’t actually win, you’re getting some data that there’s some receptiveness there. If they aren’t, consistently then I’d find it hard to argue that, at least pragmatically that it’s a good plan to pivot left. A main part of the point I've made is that the libs/Dems/ilk that believe in electoralism aren't discussing how they are making it work now among themselves. So much so, that months later, instead of pointing to their better plan and their discussion of it, they still typically just attack me personally instead. Despite not being able to vote and taking a "wait and see" approach (that's definitively not how you get off the path of fascism), you're more engaged on the topic than any of the posters that can vote and need to be discussing/taking actions that will take the US off the path of self-destructive fascism. I'd like to see the libs/Dems/ilk that believe in electoralism discuss it like they actually believe in it beyond just rationalizing bad policy and spamming to vote blue no matter who when it gets to a general. They insist I'm not worthy of discussing that with them (while still demanding my vote), that's fine, I'm pointing out they don't discuss it among themselves here either. Libs/Dems/ilk prefer to do the arguing with squirrels in the park thing. ‘Wait and see’ informs the plan. It’s not a substitute for it. Maybe vast swathes of the country are sick of the GOP and mainstream Democratic politics and want a proper departure. Maybe they don’t, and a return to Biden-era respectability is the height of ambition there. Maybe it’s both and just varies hugely by state or other locale. Until we get a clearer sense of that collectively, how does one plan a counter-punch? I might have a fantastic plan to push and elevate leftist candidates across the nation. It doesn’t matter how good the plan is if there’s a huge amount of hostility towards genuine leftist politics. + Show Spoiler +For me electoralism and legalistic frameworks are far, far better at keeping Fascists from power, than it is in dealing with them when they are in power. Which greatly informed my pre-election positions, and I think we’re seeing borne out subsequently in real time.
"Wait and see" is the (bad imo) plan.
A significant part of politics is using this time specifically (when it isn't "vote blue no matter who to stop the GOP" time) to influence and shift opinions on Democrat party politics along with their appeals to the masses.
"Wait and see" is also just not how primary campaigns (or democracy generally) for people that aren't the incumbent work. You don't just wait and see how people vote (unless one's intent is to thinly veil a desire to maintain the status quo).
Instead of using this time (when we don't have to fall in line to beat the GOP) to shape Democrat politics and their appeal to the masses, we get a perpetual stream of variations on "wow MAGA is stupid!" for libs/Dems/ilk to pump up their egos while they "wait and see" which Democrat the party makes them support in the general.
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On June 12 2025 23:51 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 23:44 Simberto wrote:On June 12 2025 21:41 Doublemint wrote:people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent. Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of Issues Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings. Then the people are stupid. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do. (+ a bunch of corruption he didn't say before, of course) It is just that what he said he would do, and what he is doing now, is profoundly idiotic and doesn't actually solve the problems he claims it would solve, which was obvious to anyone with even half a brain. The amount of people who think tariffs are a tax on foreign countries is staggering.
I mean maga is a mixture between Don’t Look Up and Idiocracy at that point. Trump himself doesn’t understand what tariffs are and do.
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On June 12 2025 23:44 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 21:41 Doublemint wrote:people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent. Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of Issues Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings. Then the people are stupid. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do. (+ a bunch of corruption he didn't say before, of course) It is just that what he said he would do, and what he is doing now, is profoundly idiotic and doesn't actually solve the problems he claims it would solve, which was obvious to anyone with even half a brain.
maybe. and still this is what we are working with in a democracy. being smug about it, even if you are right does not help your cause.
that is the beauty of make believe politics leading us into a fascistic slippery slope which turned up to 11 gives the US a king. Trump is a champion telling people what they want to hear. while too many people only hear the things they want to hear from him.
economic desperation is one way you arrive at Trump. being "loved for being poorly educated" another.
Taking Trump literally and seriously
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On June 13 2025 00:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 23:51 LightSpectra wrote:On June 12 2025 23:44 Simberto wrote:On June 12 2025 21:41 Doublemint wrote:people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent. Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of Issues Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings. Then the people are stupid. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do. (+ a bunch of corruption he didn't say before, of course) It is just that what he said he would do, and what he is doing now, is profoundly idiotic and doesn't actually solve the problems he claims it would solve, which was obvious to anyone with even half a brain. The amount of people who think tariffs are a tax on foreign countries is staggering. I mean maga is a mixture between Don’t Look Up and Idiocracy at that point. Trump himself doesn’t understand what tariffs are and do.
I guess it's my fault for continually being surprised at the depths of ignorance of which humanity is capable, but I remember learning about tariffs in gradeschool when I was like 10 or 11. Hell, the dumbest Confederacy apologists insist that the American Civil War was aKsHuAlLy about tariffs and not slavery, so one would think at least they would have at least the slimmest grasp about what a tariff is. Guess not.
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On June 13 2025 00:10 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2025 00:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 12 2025 23:51 LightSpectra wrote:On June 12 2025 23:44 Simberto wrote:On June 12 2025 21:41 Doublemint wrote:people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent. Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of Issues Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings. Then the people are stupid. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do. (+ a bunch of corruption he didn't say before, of course) It is just that what he said he would do, and what he is doing now, is profoundly idiotic and doesn't actually solve the problems he claims it would solve, which was obvious to anyone with even half a brain. The amount of people who think tariffs are a tax on foreign countries is staggering. I mean maga is a mixture between Don’t Look Up and Idiocracy at that point. Trump himself doesn’t understand what tariffs are and do. I guess it's my fault for continually being surprised at the depths of ignorance of which humanity is capable, but I remember learning about tariffs in gradeschool when I was like 10 or 11. Hell, the dumbest Confederacy apologists insist that the American Civil War was aKsHuAlLy about tariffs and not slavery, so one would think at least they would have at least the slimmest grasp about what a tariff is. Guess not.
You still think the fascists can be "gotten" in a discussion. They can't. They have nazi rabies. Their brain ins incapeable of accepting logic, parabole.
There is also communist rabies that will somehow defend anything thats decided and said in Moscow.
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On June 13 2025 00:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2025 23:51 LightSpectra wrote:On June 12 2025 23:44 Simberto wrote:On June 12 2025 21:41 Doublemint wrote:people start noticing that what was promised on the campaign trail - and what is happening now is simply incongruent. Majority Of Voters Oppose GOP Budget Bill, With Just 67% Of Republicans In Support, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Trump Job Approval: 38%, His Handling Of Russia - Ukraine War Lowest Among List Of Issues Voters were asked about Trump's handling of seven issues...
immigration issues: 43 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 3 percent not offering an opinion;
deportations: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
the economy: 40 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove, with 4 percent not offering an opinion;
trade: 38 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 6 percent not offering an opinion;
universities: 37 percent approve, 54 percent disapprove, with 9 percent not offering an opinion;
the Israel - Hamas conflict: 35 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove, with 13 percent not offering an opinion;
the Russia - Ukraine war: 34 percent approve, 57 percent disapprove, with 10 percent not offering an opinion.
the survey does not even take into account the recent happenings. Then the people are stupid. Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do. (+ a bunch of corruption he didn't say before, of course) It is just that what he said he would do, and what he is doing now, is profoundly idiotic and doesn't actually solve the problems he claims it would solve, which was obvious to anyone with even half a brain. The amount of people who think tariffs are a tax on foreign countries is staggering. I mean maga is a mixture between Don’t Look Up and Idiocracy at that point. Trump himself doesn’t understand what tariffs are and do. The people in Idiocracy were smart enough to know to turn to the worlds smartest man for answers. That makes em smarter then the average current voter.
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I'm not talking about discussions, I mean polls that show what percentage of Americans are aware what a tariff is.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/mC33yM60/nobill.png)
