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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 499

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
TheLordofAwesome
Profile Joined May 2014
Korea (South)2616 Posts
July 18 2018 15:12 GMT
#9961
On July 18 2018 22:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
I wonder if this means that, so far covertly, the NRA is now under Federal investigation. Obvious way too get into the political arena is to go through the NRA, they are pretty much crazy and to get into the guise of having a NRA gun rights in Russia. But if the NRA knowingly funneled foreign money into a political campaign then holy...

Show nested quote +
A federal grand jury indicted Mariia Butina on Tuesday on charges of conspiracy and acting as a foreign agent, adding a new charge against the Russian national, who was arrested over the weekend in Washington and accused of playing a part in a secret Russian attempt to influence U.S. politics.

Jessie Liu, the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, signed off on the two-count indictment against Butina, 29, who is accused of working as an unregistered Kremlin agent from at least 2015 through the present day.

Butina had been charged Monday with conspiracy to act as an agent of a foreign government, an offense with a statutory maximum of five years in prison. On Tuesday, U.S. officials persuaded the grand jury to add the second offense of acting as the foreign agent, which has its own 10-year-maximum prison sentence.

Like the charging documents released Monday, the latest complaint against Butina says she was working under the direction of a high-level official in the Russian government and Russian central bank “to arrange introductions to U.S. persons having influence in American politics, including an organization promoting gun rights … for the purpose of advancing the interests of the Russian Federation.”

While the indictment doesn’t name the Russian official or the gun rights group, it appears to refer to Alexander Torshin, an associate of Russian President Vladimir Putin and a longtime supporter of the National Rifle Association who also reportedly has ties to both Russian security services and organized crime figures.

Robert Driscoll, an attorney for Butina, did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the new indictment. On Monday, he issued a statement disputing the initial charge and said his client, a recent college graduate, was not “seeking to influence or undermine any specific policy or law of the United States — only at most to promote a better relationship between the two nations.”

Butina is scheduled to appear at a Wednesday afternoon hearing before Magistrate Judge Deborah Robinson at the federal courthouse in Washington.


Source

Show nested quote +
Butina began cultivating American contacts. In 2013, John Bolton, now Trump’s national security adviser, appeared in a Russian gun rights video that Right to Bear Arms used for pro-gun lobbying in Russia. Bolton was reportedly asked to appear in the video by David Keene, a recent president of the NRA, who had become acquainted with Torshin.

In April 2014, Butina flew to Indianapolis for the NRA convention. She posted photographs to the Russian social network VK showing that she mixed with Wayne LaPierre, the NRA’s pugnacious vice-president, along with heavyweight Republicans including Bobby Jindal, then governor of Louisiana, and Rick Santorum, a former US senator and presidential candidate.

That September, Butina invited Paul Erickson, a conservative political operative and veteran NRA member based in South Dakota, to address her gun rights group in Moscow. Six months later, according to US officials, she emailed an American political operative who appears to be Erickson to set out what she called project “Diplomacy”. Erickson did not respond to messages this week.

The subject line of Butina’s email, sent on 24 March 2015, appeared to liken her to a notorious KGB propagandist during the cold war. In the text, she declared that the Republican party, in the prosecutors’ words, “would likely obtain control over the US government after the 2016 elections”.

The disclosure this week raised an obvious question: what, at a time when most national opinion polling indicated an advantage for Hillary Clinton over her potential Republican rivals, had convinced Butina that the GOP would be triumphant in an election still 20 months away?

Saying that she wanted to build more constructive relations with the traditionally hawkish Republicans, Butina noted the NRA’s “central place and influence” in the party. She said she needed a $125,000 budget to fund her participation in GOP conferences. The American political operative provided her with a list of “important contacts” to meet.

A few weeks later, Butina was back in the US for the NRA’s 2015 convention. Held in Nashville, Tennessee, it again gave her access to the most in-demand figures in the conservative movement. She and Torshin chatted with Scott Walker, the governor of Wisconsin, who posed for a photograph with her and spoke a few phrases in Russian. In July, Butina attended the launch of Walker’s presidential campaign.

The Kremlin seems to have been interested. Court filings said Butina wrote Torshin a memo about a political campaign event that detailed her “private meeting” with the same candidate at the NRA convention. Walker was not identified by name. Then came Butina’s encounter with Trump at the Freedom Fest event in Las Vegas.


Source

It was revealed back in January that the FBI has been investigating Alexander Torshin for using the NRA as a way to funnel money to the Trump campaign.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-18 15:17:56
July 18 2018 15:17 GMT
#9962
But I meant the NRA as a whole. Not just one individual.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21528 Posts
July 18 2018 15:21 GMT
#9963
On July 19 2018 00:17 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
But I meant the NRA as a whole. Not just one individual.
It only takes a few people to funnel money, and at worst a few more willing to look the other way.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
TheLordofAwesome
Profile Joined May 2014
Korea (South)2616 Posts
July 18 2018 15:40 GMT
#9964
On July 19 2018 00:17 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
But I meant the NRA as a whole. Not just one individual.

How are the FBI going to investigate Torshin without investigating the finances of the NRA?

Clearly the FBI has had Torshin and Butina and all their comms under surveillance for quite some time. The level of detail in the FBI affidavit supporting Butina's arrest was quite high. The US Person 1 named in that affidavit is probably in deep trouble, since he knew that Butina / Torshin were really working directly for the Kremlin and he was trying to help them while concealing that fact.

What is the extent of the NRA's exposure in all this? I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that someone at the top of the organization had to realize that in 2016 the NRA broke its previous spending records for political campaigns by double or triple the previous all-time record. I am quite interested to see if DOJ brings charges against the NRA or its top leadership.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15476 Posts
July 18 2018 15:48 GMT
#9965
Rohrabacher defending Butina is making this all seem super real and creepy. Butina is 100% bad and everyone knows it at this point. What would motivate him to defend her?
TheLordofAwesome
Profile Joined May 2014
Korea (South)2616 Posts
July 18 2018 15:50 GMT
#9966
On July 19 2018 00:48 Mohdoo wrote:
Rohrabacher defending Butina is making this all seem super real and creepy. Butina is 100% bad and everyone knows it at this point. What would motivate him to defend her?

House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy — made a politically explosive assertion in a private conversation on Capitol Hill with his fellow GOP leaders: that Trump could be the beneficiary of payments from Russian President Vladimir Putin.

“There’s two people I think Putin pays: Rohrabacher and Trump,” McCarthy (R-Calif.) said, according to a recording of the June 15, 2016, exchange, which was listened to and verified by The Washington Post. Rep. Dana Rohrabacher is a Californian Republican known in Congress as a fervent defender of Putin and Russia.

House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) immediately interjected, stopping the conversation from further exploring McCarthy’s assertion, and swore the Republicans present to secrecy.



That's why.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-18 15:52:21
July 18 2018 15:51 GMT
#9967
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4210859-8-16-2017-AuditFYEnding2016.html#document/p5/a387862

here's the NRA's audited financials for 2016. that auditor could be in some trouble if they looked over the books and missed some weird donations.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 18 2018 15:53 GMT
#9968
On July 19 2018 00:48 Mohdoo wrote:
Rohrabacher defending Butina is making this all seem super real and creepy. Butina is 100% bad and everyone knows it at this point. What would motivate him to defend her?

he appears to have an extensive history of pro-russia stances; so doing so in this case would not be surprising at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher#Russia
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15476 Posts
July 18 2018 15:58 GMT
#9969
On July 19 2018 00:53 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2018 00:48 Mohdoo wrote:
Rohrabacher defending Butina is making this all seem super real and creepy. Butina is 100% bad and everyone knows it at this point. What would motivate him to defend her?

he appears to have an extensive history of pro-russia stances; so doing so in this case would not be surprising at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher#Russia


True, but Republicans will pounce on other republicans when they are 100% outed as being corrupt and messing with kids and stuff like that. Roy Moore, for example. Butina should be considered toxic at this point, so I am surprised to see him stick his neck out this far.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 18 2018 16:02 GMT
#9970
On July 19 2018 00:58 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2018 00:53 zlefin wrote:
On July 19 2018 00:48 Mohdoo wrote:
Rohrabacher defending Butina is making this all seem super real and creepy. Butina is 100% bad and everyone knows it at this point. What would motivate him to defend her?

he appears to have an extensive history of pro-russia stances; so doing so in this case would not be surprising at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher#Russia


True, but Republicans will pounce on other republicans when they are 100% outed as being corrupt and messing with kids and stuff like that. Roy Moore, for example. Butina should be considered toxic at this point, so I am surprised to see him stick his neck out this far.

I don't recall republicans completely pouncing on moore, only somewhat pouncing, and partly disowning him. others still backed him. and he was given some money:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/roy-moore-latest-republican-campaign-funding-alabama-senate-race-donald-trump-child-sexual-abuse-a8094596.html
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
TheLordofAwesome
Profile Joined May 2014
Korea (South)2616 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-18 16:08:12
July 18 2018 16:07 GMT
#9971
On July 19 2018 00:58 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2018 00:53 zlefin wrote:
On July 19 2018 00:48 Mohdoo wrote:
Rohrabacher defending Butina is making this all seem super real and creepy. Butina is 100% bad and everyone knows it at this point. What would motivate him to defend her?

he appears to have an extensive history of pro-russia stances; so doing so in this case would not be surprising at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher#Russia


True, but Republicans will pounce on other republicans when they are 100% outed as being corrupt and messing with kids and stuff like that. Roy Moore, for example. Butina should be considered toxic at this point, so I am surprised to see him stick his neck out this far.

Roy Moore wasn't nearly as toxic as Butina. The allegations against Moore were made by a bunch of people decades after they happened, and so the Roy Moore affair was considered to be unsubstantiated bunk by a lot of the hardcore Trumpist fanbase.

Butina was just arrested for being a Russian spy by the FBI, which has had her under surveillance for quite a long time. She looks like Anna Chapman, or Alger Hiss, or the Rosenbergs. Literally not even Sean Hannity is trying to defend Maria Butina.
TheLordofAwesome
Profile Joined May 2014
Korea (South)2616 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-18 16:25:01
July 18 2018 16:09 GMT
#9972


Did someone say "honeypot?"

EDIT: Why is this post low content? The last 2 pages of this thread are almost all people talking about Maria Butina. The government just revealed further information about her in a new filing in the court, located here .

EDIT: Best part of the new document so far
5. Butina’s “Tie” to the United States is a Duplicitous Relationship
During the course of this investigation, the FBI has determined that Butina gained access
through U.S. Person 1 to an extensive network of U.S. persons in positions to influence political
activities in the United States. Butina, age 29, and U.S. Person 1, age 56, are believed to have
cohabitated and been involved in a personal relationship during the course of Butina’s activities in
the United States.
But this relationship does not represent a strong tie to the United States because
Butina appears to treat it as simply a necessary aspect of her activities. For example, on at least
one occasion, Butina offered an individual other than U.S. Person 1 sex in exchange for a position

within a special interest organization. Further, in papers seized by the FBI, Butina complained
about living with U.S. Person 1 and expressed disdain for continuing to cohabitate with U.S.


User was warned for this post
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 18 2018 16:21 GMT
#9973
This is just old fashion trade craft. They picked a woman who had a public history of loving guns in Russia and used her as a vector to get into the NRA. And it appears she did a lot more than just deal with the NRA.

This is the part where Trump’s calling everything a witch hunt starts to turn on him and make him look guilty. They have a Russia spy trying to influence our elections and government. It isn’t speculation any more.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21528 Posts
July 18 2018 16:22 GMT
#9974
On July 19 2018 01:09 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
https://twitter.com/Tom_Winter/status/1019600664094216192

Did someone say "honeypot?"

EDIT: Why is this post low content? The last 2 pages of this thread are almost all people talking about Maria Butina. The government just revealed further information about her in a new filing in the court, located here .

User was warned for this post
As per the thread rules. Don't post just a twitter message and a cheesy one liner.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
July 18 2018 16:24 GMT
#9975
On July 18 2018 21:59 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2018 19:57 kollin wrote:
In fairness hardly anyone understands the Israel Palestine conflict.


This is very true. I swear a bunch of people think Palestine/Hamas is a great evil because US supports Israel and another large group thinks Israel must be evil because US supports Israel. Few people actually understand it even at a basic level.

Ye in my eyes to understand it you rly need to study the history and what Zionism is, then look at the development of the ruling parties within Israel over the last 70 years. Any attempt to condemn or support Israel based on current actions can too easily be batted away by whataboutisms and strawmanning, as happened to AOC, because any questions relating to Israel or Palestine cannot be answered outside of the context of how those states came to be the way they are now.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-18 17:01:53
July 18 2018 17:01 GMT
#9976


Apparently Trump is so misinformed on NATO that he badmouthed a country that just provided us with 2000 more troops. This isn’t some abstract plan for them to pay more, they are helping us right now and the President doesn’t give a shit. And without that support, our troops in Afghanistan are at greater risk.

Fox News might be the most anti American network right now.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
July 18 2018 17:34 GMT
#9977
I love the fact that all this info is coming out after the day the President decided to turn his back against our country.
Life?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 18 2018 17:39 GMT
#9978
And Trump just denied that Russia is currently trying to hack into and undermine US infrastructure. This directly conflicts with the DHS findings, who stated the hacking attempts were ongoing. Trumps statements yesterday were bullshit and he can’t even keep lying for more than 24 hours.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7028 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-18 17:48:59
July 18 2018 17:45 GMT
#9979
On July 18 2018 21:59 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2018 19:57 kollin wrote:
In fairness hardly anyone understands the Israel Palestine conflict.


This is very true. I swear a bunch of people think Palestine/Hamas is a great evil because US supports Israel and another large group thinks Israel must be evil because US supports Israel. Few people actually understand it even at a basic level.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/17/world/middleeast/west-bank-public-land-israel-palestinians.html

There was an article about this the other day. I can’t do a good summary on mobile, but basically it says that 99.8% of state land in the West Bank is reserved to aid Israeli settlements even if the population is 88% Palestinians.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-18 17:51:10
July 18 2018 17:48 GMT
#9980
On July 19 2018 02:39 Plansix wrote:
And Trump just denied that Russia is currently trying to hack into and undermine US infrastructure. This directly conflicts with the DHS findings, who stated the hacking attempts were ongoing. Trumps statements yesterday were bullshit and he can’t even keep lying for more than 24 hours.


No, see, what he meant to deny is that Russia *isn't* currently trying to hack into and undermine US infrastructure. If anyone notices and makes a big kerfluffle that he said it, anyway.

I feel more sympathy than I probably should for the people in the intelligence community and State department on this in the same way I sympathized with the military folks who went unconsulted about the transgender policy. How can these people do their job when their boss 1) won't listen to what they tell him and 2) has a habit of making up anonymous people who agree with his viewpoints that they can't verify the existence of?

It's like having a kid who uses his imaginary friends as justification for doing things...but you have to take him seriously, because he's your boss.
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