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Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian.
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United States42663 Posts
On May 29 2025 00:19 Razyda wrote:
My point is that your statement:
"If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi"
doesnt hold.
It does.
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United States42663 Posts
On May 29 2025 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian.
Razyda argued that Brad Pitt's character in Inglourious Basterds was the real Nazi and that Bonfire Night is a celebration of Guy Fawkes. Whatever point you're projecting onto him isn't there.
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On May 29 2025 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian.
His argument is more reminiscent of if I were to argue that Trump is actually 3 kangaroos wearing a suit being voiced by a particularly low intelligence AI.
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On May 29 2025 00:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian. Razyda argued that Brad Pitt's character in Inglourious Basterds was the real Nazi and that Bonfire Night is a celebration of Guy Fawkes. Whatever point you're projecting onto him isn't there.
It's similar to you all saying that refusing to willingly hand a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist fascist control of the worlds strongest military + advanced nuclear arsenal would actually make you the fascists rather than the antifascists.
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On May 29 2025 00:07 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 23:13 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 22:22 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:10 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 21:46 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 15:29 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 15:24 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 15:22 KwarK wrote:
It's like that well known poem goes
"First they came for the trade unionists because Nazis are left wing and wanted to hang out
Then they came for the socialists because everyone knows Nazis are socialists"
Pretty sure I'm remembering it right. Would be helpful if you made a point? You made the argument that Nazism was a left wing ideology because Hitler said he was a socialist one time and if you can't trust a man like Hitler then who can you trust. Hitler wouldn't lie. I thought that was a fucking fantastic point and chimed in with agreement about left wing Nazism. I think there was even a poem about how in Nazi Germany the first people the Nazis came for were the trade unionists. I don't remember exactly how the poem went but I'm pretty sure that it was a list of groups the Nazis liked. You misunderstood. I didnt make argument that nazism was left wing ideology. I made argument that being left wing doesnt make you impervious to being nazi/nazilike. Yes it does. If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi. Words have meanings, there is no left wing Nazism. You need to find a different word for them. Consider the moon. It's in the sky, it lights things up, it's pretty big, sounds a lot like the sun to me. Being the moon must not be an impervious defence against the accusation of being the sun. I'm not saying that the sun is the moon, I'm just saying that the moon isn't necessarily not the sun. Here's a facebook link to explain this in more detail. You are getting rather close to arguing that mustache dude wasnt a nazi, because " Ich bin Sozialist" No I’m not. Again, Hitler was a liar. I don’t know where your unwavering faith in Hitler comes from but I don’t share it. Hitler was a Nazi. Well then on one hand you have self declared left winger doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence) as an obvious nazi, on the other hand you have self declared left wingers doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence), as not nazis, because leftists cant be nazis... Very consistent of you. I guess Brad Pitt must've been playing a Nazi in "Inglourious Basterds". I'm not sure whether you're a moron or just pretending to be one.
I am pretty certain Razyda thinks he is throwing out amazing zingers and gotchas, and that we are all just too stupid to get them. What he doesn't seem to grasp is that people do understand what he is saying and wants to imply, and are just baffled by the intense stupidity of those implied zingers.
He also seems to notice that people sometimes react with sarcastic statements to what he is saying, and is attempting to do the same, but seems to not completely grasp the whole idea. I am not certain if he actually grasps the sarcasm, or if he is just confused when people say stuff that apparently completely contradicts what they have been saying before.
But, of course, there is also the option that he is just trolling by acting stupid.
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On May 29 2025 00:33 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 23:53 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 28 2025 23:13 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 22:22 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:10 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 21:46 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 15:29 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 15:24 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 15:22 KwarK wrote:
It's like that well known poem goes
"First they came for the trade unionists because Nazis are left wing and wanted to hang out
Then they came for the socialists because everyone knows Nazis are socialists"
Pretty sure I'm remembering it right. Would be helpful if you made a point? You made the argument that Nazism was a left wing ideology because Hitler said he was a socialist one time and if you can't trust a man like Hitler then who can you trust. Hitler wouldn't lie. I thought that was a fucking fantastic point and chimed in with agreement about left wing Nazism. I think there was even a poem about how in Nazi Germany the first people the Nazis came for were the trade unionists. I don't remember exactly how the poem went but I'm pretty sure that it was a list of groups the Nazis liked. You misunderstood. I didnt make argument that nazism was left wing ideology. I made argument that being left wing doesnt make you impervious to being nazi/nazilike. Yes it does. If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi. Words have meanings, there is no left wing Nazism. You need to find a different word for them. Consider the moon. It's in the sky, it lights things up, it's pretty big, sounds a lot like the sun to me. Being the moon must not be an impervious defence against the accusation of being the sun. I'm not saying that the sun is the moon, I'm just saying that the moon isn't necessarily not the sun. Here's a facebook link to explain this in more detail. You are getting rather close to arguing that mustache dude wasnt a nazi, because " Ich bin Sozialist" No I’m not. Again, Hitler was a liar. I don’t know where your unwavering faith in Hitler comes from but I don’t share it. Hitler was a Nazi. Well then on one hand you have self declared left winger doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence) as an obvious nazi, on the other hand you have self declared left wingers doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence), as not nazis, because leftists cant be nazis... Very consistent of you. Its so self evidently wrong that you define nazism as 'drawing swastikas and committing violence'. That's not what nazism is. Drawing swastikas and committing violence is a very small part of being a nazi. Its like someone making a speech about how the phrase 'heil Hitler' helped spread nazism in Germany. You could say "oh obviously they are nazi, they are making a speech and saying 'heil Hitler'". That's doing nazi things, right? I can do that with anything. I have million examples of Trump I could do that with. Nazism involves having certain beliefs, belonging to certain Nazi organisations, taking organized nazi actions, pushing for a white ethnostate, none of which describe what these left wingers do in the slightest, but you choose to disregard all of that. By your standard, Elon Musk is definitely a Nazi. In the real world he's not, he just had a short period of time where he thought using Nazi symbols would benefit him somehow. Obviously he got bitchslapped by Tesla and had to stop for money's sake. "Its so self evidently wrong that you define nazism as 'drawing swastikas and committing violence'. That's not what nazism is." - I dont define nazizm with that. I would say though that this are some decent indicators. If sane person see 2 people: 1 - drawing swastika on an accused Nazi's property, in an effort to ostracize that possible Nazi and committing acts of violence against a possible Nazi
Why do you refuse to include the context that matters? We're not all necessarily excusing the vandalism or the violence, nor denying that it's vandalism or violence, nor saying that the accuser is automatically correct in concluding that the Tesla owner is a Nazi... but your argument of what makes a person a Nazi is just plain false.
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Northern Ireland25261 Posts
@Razyda incidentally going back to Guy Fawkes. Most don’t know a huge amount about it, but most know at least that the point of the celebration was around ‘the King wasn’t blown up’ and not celebrating Mr Fawkes. I did ask around as you suggested :p
It’s less of a thing now than even when I was a kid, it used to be more of a thing when my mum was a kid. In her time it was still a thing for kids to go around and ask neighbours for pocket change to get supplies for their Guy Fawkes effigy, or fireworks or whatever. Where the now uncommon phrase ‘penny for the guy’ comes from.
It was also a pretty damn anti-Catholic celebration for rather some time, although that has somewhat disappeared over the centuries.
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On May 29 2025 00:32 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:19 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 23:24 Velr wrote:On May 28 2025 23:13 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 22:22 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:10 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 21:46 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 15:29 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 15:24 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
Would be helpful if you made a point?
You made the argument that Nazism was a left wing ideology because Hitler said he was a socialist one time and if you can't trust a man like Hitler then who can you trust. Hitler wouldn't lie. I thought that was a fucking fantastic point and chimed in with agreement about left wing Nazism. I think there was even a poem about how in Nazi Germany the first people the Nazis came for were the trade unionists. I don't remember exactly how the poem went but I'm pretty sure that it was a list of groups the Nazis liked. You misunderstood. I didnt make argument that nazism was left wing ideology. I made argument that being left wing doesnt make you impervious to being nazi/nazilike. Yes it does. If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi. Words have meanings, there is no left wing Nazism. You need to find a different word for them. Consider the moon. It's in the sky, it lights things up, it's pretty big, sounds a lot like the sun to me. Being the moon must not be an impervious defence against the accusation of being the sun. I'm not saying that the sun is the moon, I'm just saying that the moon isn't necessarily not the sun. Here's a facebook link to explain this in more detail. You are getting rather close to arguing that mustache dude wasnt a nazi, because " Ich bin Sozialist" No I’m not. Again, Hitler was a liar. I don’t know where your unwavering faith in Hitler comes from but I don’t share it. Hitler was a Nazi. Well then on one hand you have self declared left winger doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence) as an obvious nazi, on the other hand you have self declared left wingers doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence), as not nazis, because leftists cant be nazis... Very consistent of you. Just checking: If I would cut a Swastika in your head because I saw you doing a Sieg Heil (an obvious one, not a K-Pop one). Does that make me a Nazi? Btw: "Doing Violence" isn't a Nazi thing... FFS... I would say that cutting swastika in somebody's head is very nazi thing to do no matter reasons. In practice though, I would argue that it will make you more of an inmate/corpse (depending on the temper of the person you attempt it on) than a nazi. "Btw: "Doing Violence" isn't a Nazi thing... FFS." - yep, peaceful bunch them nazis, they watched in horror, how milions of folks offed themself for no apparent reason... On May 28 2025 23:35 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 23:13 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 22:22 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:10 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 21:46 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 15:29 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 15:24 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
Would be helpful if you made a point?
You made the argument that Nazism was a left wing ideology because Hitler said he was a socialist one time and if you can't trust a man like Hitler then who can you trust. Hitler wouldn't lie. I thought that was a fucking fantastic point and chimed in with agreement about left wing Nazism. I think there was even a poem about how in Nazi Germany the first people the Nazis came for were the trade unionists. I don't remember exactly how the poem went but I'm pretty sure that it was a list of groups the Nazis liked. You misunderstood. I didnt make argument that nazism was left wing ideology. I made argument that being left wing doesnt make you impervious to being nazi/nazilike. Yes it does. If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi. Words have meanings, there is no left wing Nazism. You need to find a different word for them. Consider the moon. It's in the sky, it lights things up, it's pretty big, sounds a lot like the sun to me. Being the moon must not be an impervious defence against the accusation of being the sun. I'm not saying that the sun is the moon, I'm just saying that the moon isn't necessarily not the sun. Here's a facebook link to explain this in more detail. You are getting rather close to arguing that mustache dude wasnt a nazi, because " Ich bin Sozialist" No I’m not. Again, Hitler was a liar. I don’t know where your unwavering faith in Hitler comes from but I don’t share it. Hitler was a Nazi. Well then on one hand you have self declared left winger doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence) as an obvious nazi, on the other hand you have self declared left wingers doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence), as not nazis, because leftists cant be nazis... Very consistent of you. Sorry, is your point now that Hitler wasn't a Nazi? My point is that your statement: "If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi" doesnt hold. If you have not seen the film in question, an American military group comprised (IIRC) entirely of American Jews goes around killing Nazis, like actual Nazis in World War 2. It’s quite hard to argue that they were Nazis. IIRC you’re not a native English speaker, but you gotta read between the lines sometimes. ‘Violence isn’t exclusively a Nazi thing’ was the intent here.
I am not saying that violence is exclusively nazi thing, or that only nazis commit violence. What I am saying is that if you couple violence with drawing swastikas you are getting way to close for my liking. May be thing for Poles of my generation and older, that we get somewhat touchy about it, for ssome reasons.
"IIRC you’re not a native English speaker, but you gotta read between the lines sometimes. ‘Violence isn’t exclusively a Nazi thing’ was the intent here." - reading between the lines may get you "I never said that" response, and if it was the intent it could have been phrased that way.
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On May 28 2025 22:59 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 22:45 Billyboy wrote:
@introvert you have always been the most reasonable of the proudly Republican posters. But your take on Musk's clear Nazi salute, he did twice to make sure people know what it was, is not reasonable at all. If you wanted to try to say that he wasn't a nazi but was making it to troll the libs and look cool on 4 chan, that is at least somewhat possible (but I think i t is more likely he did both to pwn the libs and because he agrees with lots of what the nazi's stood for).
Saying it is not a nazi salute means you are starting to fall down the rabbit hole mate, watch yourself and ground yourself. That was option B) in my original post, although maybe not worded that way exactly. It's the action of a defiant child who doesn't like being told to do (or not to do) something. But it could be that, yes.
Sorry, I must have missed that and jumped into the discussion part way through. Any positive look at the Musk situation is hard for me because of all his actions. I think if you were to switch hats for a second and think about how Republicans would feel if George Saros donated 250m, was going around bribing people to vote certain ways, became one of the most powerful people in the government, had a personal team going into all the offices and working on the databases, being in every meeting, having a undefined but clearly powerful roll. You would be at least as concerned as the people that are not on your team has. This is simply not a democratic solution, no long term good can come from people being able to buy their way into power so directly. Even if you agree with Musk, how do you feel about this door being opened for people you donèt agree with buying their way to thatÉ (donèt know whats up with keyboard lol)
And if he was actually just doing the salute to troll, then he is not a serious enough individual to run the country. It is an embarrassment that TONS of adults think he is cool. He is a loser 12 year old boy trying way to hard. He and Trump are such an embarrassment to your country (along with many of the other appointments). The Republicans are winning short term, but globally we think so much less of you. Anytime we read a Trump tweet with random words capitalized, or someone prints the transcript of his speech, or plays clips of the stupid shit he says (like inventing the word equalize) it is hard to not feel embarrassed and cringe.
If any Ivy league school should be attacked it is whatever Trump graduated from, he would fail a junior high English class. Your problem is not the immigrants getting it, it is the rich spoiled brats that do not know shit and are so entitled that they are not willing ot learn.
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On May 29 2025 00:44 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian. His argument is more reminiscent of if I were to argue that Trump is actually 3 kangaroos wearing a suit being voiced by a particularly low intelligence AI.
Sounds more plausible than a lot of stuff going around.
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On May 29 2025 01:09 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 29 2025 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian. His argument is more reminiscent of if I were to argue that Trump is actually 3 kangaroos wearing a suit being voiced by a particularly low intelligence AI. Sounds more plausible than a lot of stuff going around.
It kinda gets across a point about what I think about Trump, right, if you read between the lines?
Therefore, its true.
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On May 29 2025 01:11 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 01:09 Billyboy wrote:On May 29 2025 00:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 29 2025 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian. His argument is more reminiscent of if I were to argue that Trump is actually 3 kangaroos wearing a suit being voiced by a particularly low intelligence AI. Sounds more plausible than a lot of stuff going around. It kinda gets across a point about what I think about Trump, right, if you read between the lines? Therefore, its true.
It is impossible to prove that there is not some super high tech suit that makes the kangaroo undetectable, therefore it is true.
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On May 29 2025 00:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian. Razyda argued that Brad Pitt's character in Inglourious Basterds was the real Nazi and that Bonfire Night is a celebration of Guy Fawkes. Whatever point you're projecting onto him isn't there.
bolded - citation needed.
On May 29 2025 00:56 WombaT wrote:
@Razyda incidentally going back to Guy Fawkes. Most don’t know a huge amount about it, but most know at least that the point of the celebration was around ‘the King wasn’t blown up’ and not celebrating Mr Fawkes. I did ask around as you suggested :p
It’s less of a thing now than even when I was a kid, it used to be more of a thing when my mum was a kid. In her time it was still a thing for kids to go around and ask neighbours for pocket change to get supplies for their Guy Fawkes effigy, or fireworks or whatever. Where the now uncommon phrase ‘penny for the guy’ comes from.
It was also a pretty damn anti-Catholic celebration for rather some time, although that has somewhat disappeared over the centuries.
Did you got reaction I described? genuinely curious about it.
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I think it's a waste of time to engage with a troll pretending to be this obtuse.
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Canada11350 Posts
On May 28 2025 23:43 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 21:44 Jankisa wrote:
Ooof, that is such a weak doge I almost can't even think of a reply that is appropreate. What dodge? Did I issue a pardon for someone and refused to let you hold me accountable for why? I have no obligation to care about something you care about. Your level of hysteria does not engender any such obligation, either. You apparently think I should care about something. That's fine. You've done a pretty bad job convincing.
This is perhaps the closest admission that there is no defence for Trump's actions (peace be upon him).
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if was, that's not a big deal.
Run out frivolous defences and when pressed, fall silent and loftily indicate by some phrase that the time for argument is over. I. Don't. Care.
Tim Pool's been running that 'defence' recently as well. When shown anything that is done against the constitution (due process), the response is "I don't care."
Well, okay then. But I don't ever want to hear MAGA lines of critiques of their political opponents that utilizes constitutional originalism or anything like it. MAGA true believers clearly do not care when it's their side and so should never be taken seriously again on the matter.
On May 28 2025 23:43 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 21:44 Jankisa wrote:
The fact that you refer to his assassination attempt as a reason why he and his cronies get to do crime is, well, I don't know, retarded I guess? What's the criminal statute that says you can't make a meme coin, be inaugurated president, and hold it? It doesn't exist, right? The fact he got shot doesn't mean he gets to do crime. The fact he got shot means I no longer even pay obvious wolf-criers the benefit of the doubt to look for evidence on the offchance they're correct before assuming they're wrong.
That's it? One assassination attempt by some loony and you get a free pass on running pump and dump scams and rank corruption (pay to play justice) for the rest of your administration. Nice.
1921 communists threw a bomb at the little Austrian corporal giving a speech so I no longer even pay obvious wolf-criers the benefit of the doubt. Got'em.
An assassination attempt should not cause you to deliberately blind yourself to the actions of their target no matter how odious the assassins may be. Unless you are a hyperpartisan supporter.
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Falling: You can live with an axiom that Trump breathing needs a justification. I don't. Make a specific positive claim about a pardon (a textbook legal power reserved to usually-elected executives) if you want me to listen to it. "Trump pardoned someone, defend it monkey" is not anything. You have me confused with the White House Press Secretary.
On May 29 2025 00:59 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:32 WombaT wrote:On May 29 2025 00:19 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 23:24 Velr wrote:On May 28 2025 23:13 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 22:22 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:10 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 21:46 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 15:29 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You made the argument that Nazism was a left wing ideology because Hitler said he was a socialist one time and if you can't trust a man like Hitler then who can you trust. Hitler wouldn't lie.
I thought that was a fucking fantastic point and chimed in with agreement about left wing Nazism. I think there was even a poem about how in Nazi Germany the first people the Nazis came for were the trade unionists. I don't remember exactly how the poem went but I'm pretty sure that it was a list of groups the Nazis liked. You misunderstood. I didnt make argument that nazism was left wing ideology. I made argument that being left wing doesnt make you impervious to being nazi/nazilike. Yes it does. If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi. Words have meanings, there is no left wing Nazism. You need to find a different word for them. Consider the moon. It's in the sky, it lights things up, it's pretty big, sounds a lot like the sun to me. Being the moon must not be an impervious defence against the accusation of being the sun. I'm not saying that the sun is the moon, I'm just saying that the moon isn't necessarily not the sun. Here's a facebook link to explain this in more detail. You are getting rather close to arguing that mustache dude wasnt a nazi, because " Ich bin Sozialist" No I’m not. Again, Hitler was a liar. I don’t know where your unwavering faith in Hitler comes from but I don’t share it. Hitler was a Nazi. Well then on one hand you have self declared left winger doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence) as an obvious nazi, on the other hand you have self declared left wingers doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence), as not nazis, because leftists cant be nazis... Very consistent of you. Just checking: If I would cut a Swastika in your head because I saw you doing a Sieg Heil (an obvious one, not a K-Pop one). Does that make me a Nazi? Btw: "Doing Violence" isn't a Nazi thing... FFS... I would say that cutting swastika in somebody's head is very nazi thing to do no matter reasons. In practice though, I would argue that it will make you more of an inmate/corpse (depending on the temper of the person you attempt it on) than a nazi. "Btw: "Doing Violence" isn't a Nazi thing... FFS." - yep, peaceful bunch them nazis, they watched in horror, how milions of folks offed themself for no apparent reason... On May 28 2025 23:35 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 23:13 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 22:22 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:10 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 21:46 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 15:29 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You made the argument that Nazism was a left wing ideology because Hitler said he was a socialist one time and if you can't trust a man like Hitler then who can you trust. Hitler wouldn't lie.
I thought that was a fucking fantastic point and chimed in with agreement about left wing Nazism. I think there was even a poem about how in Nazi Germany the first people the Nazis came for were the trade unionists. I don't remember exactly how the poem went but I'm pretty sure that it was a list of groups the Nazis liked. You misunderstood. I didnt make argument that nazism was left wing ideology. I made argument that being left wing doesnt make you impervious to being nazi/nazilike. Yes it does. If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi. Words have meanings, there is no left wing Nazism. You need to find a different word for them. Consider the moon. It's in the sky, it lights things up, it's pretty big, sounds a lot like the sun to me. Being the moon must not be an impervious defence against the accusation of being the sun. I'm not saying that the sun is the moon, I'm just saying that the moon isn't necessarily not the sun. Here's a facebook link to explain this in more detail. You are getting rather close to arguing that mustache dude wasnt a nazi, because " Ich bin Sozialist" No I’m not. Again, Hitler was a liar. I don’t know where your unwavering faith in Hitler comes from but I don’t share it. Hitler was a Nazi. Well then on one hand you have self declared left winger doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence) as an obvious nazi, on the other hand you have self declared left wingers doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence), as not nazis, because leftists cant be nazis... Very consistent of you. Sorry, is your point now that Hitler wasn't a Nazi? My point is that your statement: "If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi" doesnt hold. If you have not seen the film in question, an American military group comprised (IIRC) entirely of American Jews goes around killing Nazis, like actual Nazis in World War 2. It’s quite hard to argue that they were Nazis. IIRC you’re not a native English speaker, but you gotta read between the lines sometimes. ‘Violence isn’t exclusively a Nazi thing’ was the intent here. I am not saying that violence is exclusively nazi thing, or that only nazis commit violence. What I am saying is that if you couple violence with drawing swastikas you are getting way to close for my liking. May be thing for Poles of my generation and older, that we get somewhat touchy about it, for ssome reasons. "IIRC you’re not a native English speaker, but you gotta read between the lines sometimes. ‘Violence isn’t exclusively a Nazi thing’ was the intent here." - reading between the lines may get you "I never said that" response, and if it was the intent it could have been phrased that way.
So you're saying that simple identification as a Nazi is not the moral evil per se, it's that people who are Nazis are known for things like for example beating the shit out of people and painting swastikas. Because beating the shit out of people and painting swastikas are bad, these patterns of behavior are used to identify people who are bad. But you're saying the specific color uniform you wear when you do it is immaterial - the activity is bad by itself, even if it's someone who says they're going around beating people up and painting swastikas for really good reasons?
And that a good guy shooting a bad guy during a World War is somehow different than people beating each other up in the middle of society? It's an interesting point of view.
Unfortunately most leftist definitions only go as far as to declare who a Nazi is or isn't, and not address the criteria, if any, used to arrive at the conclusion. We had one attempt here so far which was a good try:
Nazism involves having certain beliefs, belonging to certain Nazi organisations, taking organized nazi actions, pushing for a white ethnostate, none of which describe what these left wingers do in the slightest, but you choose to disregard all of that.
Unfortunately 2 of these are circular (Nazism involves being a Nazi / Nazism involves doing Nazi things). White ethnostate looks clear enough, but by itself probably neither a necessary nor sufficient condition. "Having certain beliefs" is the most nebulous and needs further clarification.
I'm interested but not optimistic because of the number of times I've seen Jews get called Nazis. The people making these accusations really need a much more objectively handled category.
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I'm not too sure about this 'swastikas on Teslas' thing anyway.
I mean, how sure can we be that they aren't just members of Red Cross trying to spread their message, but they aren't very good at drawing red crosses?
That's plausible enough to have a non zero possibility, right? Therefore it could be true, and all this hysteria about swastikas on Teslas is just hysteria.
Frankly, attacking Red Cross is exactly something I would expect the right wing to do. Its kind of pathetic, don't you think? Just normal Red Cross workers trying to spread their message of healthy living and peace, and the right wing decides to call them nazis and launch loads of personal attacks.
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Northern Ireland25261 Posts
On May 29 2025 01:14 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:38 KwarK wrote:On May 29 2025 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Razyda is basically making the same tolerance paradox related argument everyone here did to rationalize willingly handing power over to Trump despite him being a blatantly corrupt 2x impeached insurrectionist authoritarian. Razyda argued that Brad Pitt's character in Inglourious Basterds was the real Nazi and that Bonfire Night is a celebration of Guy Fawkes. Whatever point you're projecting onto him isn't there. bolded - citation needed. Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:56 WombaT wrote:
@Razyda incidentally going back to Guy Fawkes. Most don’t know a huge amount about it, but most know at least that the point of the celebration was around ‘the King wasn’t blown up’ and not celebrating Mr Fawkes. I did ask around as you suggested :p
It’s less of a thing now than even when I was a kid, it used to be more of a thing when my mum was a kid. In her time it was still a thing for kids to go around and ask neighbours for pocket change to get supplies for their Guy Fawkes effigy, or fireworks or whatever. Where the now uncommon phrase ‘penny for the guy’ comes from.
It was also a pretty damn anti-Catholic celebration for rather some time, although that has somewhat disappeared over the centuries. Did you got reaction I described? genuinely curious about it.
Basically as I described folks aren’t experts on its history but they’ve got a vague idea
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On May 29 2025 01:38 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2025 00:59 Razyda wrote:On May 29 2025 00:32 WombaT wrote:On May 29 2025 00:19 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 23:24 Velr wrote:On May 28 2025 23:13 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 22:22 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:10 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 21:46 Razyda wrote:
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You misunderstood. I didnt make argument that nazism was left wing ideology. I made argument that being left wing doesnt make you impervious to being nazi/nazilike. Yes it does. If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi. Words have meanings, there is no left wing Nazism. You need to find a different word for them. Consider the moon. It's in the sky, it lights things up, it's pretty big, sounds a lot like the sun to me. Being the moon must not be an impervious defence against the accusation of being the sun. I'm not saying that the sun is the moon, I'm just saying that the moon isn't necessarily not the sun. Here's a facebook link to explain this in more detail. You are getting rather close to arguing that mustache dude wasnt a nazi, because " Ich bin Sozialist" No I’m not. Again, Hitler was a liar. I don’t know where your unwavering faith in Hitler comes from but I don’t share it. Hitler was a Nazi. Well then on one hand you have self declared left winger doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence) as an obvious nazi, on the other hand you have self declared left wingers doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence), as not nazis, because leftists cant be nazis... Very consistent of you. Just checking: If I would cut a Swastika in your head because I saw you doing a Sieg Heil (an obvious one, not a K-Pop one). Does that make me a Nazi? Btw: "Doing Violence" isn't a Nazi thing... FFS... I would say that cutting swastika in somebody's head is very nazi thing to do no matter reasons. In practice though, I would argue that it will make you more of an inmate/corpse (depending on the temper of the person you attempt it on) than a nazi. "Btw: "Doing Violence" isn't a Nazi thing... FFS." - yep, peaceful bunch them nazis, they watched in horror, how milions of folks offed themself for no apparent reason... On May 28 2025 23:35 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 23:13 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 22:22 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 22:10 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 21:46 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
You misunderstood. I didnt make argument that nazism was left wing ideology. I made argument that being left wing doesnt make you impervious to being nazi/nazilike. Yes it does. If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi. Words have meanings, there is no left wing Nazism. You need to find a different word for them. Consider the moon. It's in the sky, it lights things up, it's pretty big, sounds a lot like the sun to me. Being the moon must not be an impervious defence against the accusation of being the sun. I'm not saying that the sun is the moon, I'm just saying that the moon isn't necessarily not the sun. Here's a facebook link to explain this in more detail. You are getting rather close to arguing that mustache dude wasnt a nazi, because " Ich bin Sozialist" No I’m not. Again, Hitler was a liar. I don’t know where your unwavering faith in Hitler comes from but I don’t share it. Hitler was a Nazi. Well then on one hand you have self declared left winger doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence) as an obvious nazi, on the other hand you have self declared left wingers doing nazi things (drawing swastikas, committing violence), as not nazis, because leftists cant be nazis... Very consistent of you. Sorry, is your point now that Hitler wasn't a Nazi? My point is that your statement: "If you're left wing and violent then you might be a Stalinist or whatever but you're not a Nazi" doesnt hold. If you have not seen the film in question, an American military group comprised (IIRC) entirely of American Jews goes around killing Nazis, like actual Nazis in World War 2. It’s quite hard to argue that they were Nazis. IIRC you’re not a native English speaker, but you gotta read between the lines sometimes. ‘Violence isn’t exclusively a Nazi thing’ was the intent here. I am not saying that violence is exclusively nazi thing, or that only nazis commit violence. What I am saying is that if you couple violence with drawing swastikas you are getting way to close for my liking. May be thing for Poles of my generation and older, that we get somewhat touchy about it, for ssome reasons. "IIRC you’re not a native English speaker, but you gotta read between the lines sometimes. ‘Violence isn’t exclusively a Nazi thing’ was the intent here." - reading between the lines may get you "I never said that" response, and if it was the intent it could have been phrased that way. So you're saying that simple identification as a Nazi is not the moral evil per se, it's that people who are Nazis are known for things like for example beating the shit out of people and painting swastikas. Because beating the shit out of people and painting swastikas are bad, these patterns of behavior are used to identify people who are bad. But you're saying the specific color uniform you wear when you do it is immaterial - the activity is bad by itself, even if it's someone who says they're going around beating people up and painting swastikas for really good reasons? And that a good guy shooting a bad guy during a World War is somehow different than people beating each other up in the middle of society? It's an interesting point of view. Unfortunately most leftist definitions only go as far as to declare who a Nazi is or isn't, and not address the criteria, if any, used to arrive at the conclusion. We had one attempt here so far which was a good try: Show nested quote +Nazism involves having certain beliefs, belonging to certain Nazi organisations, taking organized nazi actions, pushing for a white ethnostate, none of which describe what these left wingers do in the slightest, but you choose to disregard all of that. Unfortunately 2 of these are circular (Nazism involves being a Nazi / Nazism involves doing Nazi things). White ethnostate looks clear enough, but by itself probably neither a necessary nor sufficient condition. "Having certain beliefs" is the most nebulous and needs further clarification. I'm interested but not optimistic because of the number of times I've seen Jews get called Nazis. The people making these accusations really need a much more objectively handled category.
"So you're saying that simple identification as a Nazi is not the moral evil per se, it's that people who are Nazis are known for things like for example beating the shit out of people and painting swastikas" thats not what I am saying at all. From my point of view if someone is a nazi he is evil, period.
" people who are Nazis are known for things like for example beating the shit out of people and painting swastikas. Because beating the shit out of people and painting swastikas are bad, these patterns of behavior are used to identify people who are bad. But you're saying the specific color uniform you wear when you do it is immaterial - the activity is bad by itself, even if it's someone who says they're going around beating people up and painting swastikas for really good reasons?" - correct.
I also have exactly 0 faith in people ability to identify nazis, particularly if they believe leftist cant be nazis, or owning tesla car makes you one.
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EPT
