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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On March 28 2025 23:00 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2025 22:58 oBlade wrote:On March 28 2025 04:52 decafchicken wrote:
You're talking about a guy who used the white house for a car commercial. He is completely liable to take Greenland by force. I haven't seen two less connected sentences. This is like a world record non sequitur. He liked a car so he's going to invade a treaty ally. On March 28 2025 05:39 Legan wrote:On March 28 2025 05:31 Simberto wrote:On March 28 2025 05:24 Dan HH wrote:On March 28 2025 04:02 Vivax wrote:
Maybe there‘s potential around Greenland for offshore oil drilling or north pole sources of energy.
Don‘t see what it gives strategically. Maybe it‘s where he wants to build vaults fallout-style like they did in Norway.
Consuming less energy is too hard to achieve. But everyone else are parasites. The charts beg to differ. You're way overthinking it. It makes the US occupy more space on the map, that's the main reason. That's how the nationalist brain works, all the European ones decorate their offices with a map of the largest extent their country has been at in history. And being the guy that expanded it is their holy grail. Ah, the Europa Universalis school of political thought. If Trump was much younger, I'm sure video games would be blamed for his views on how world politics work. He is just spamming Denmark to trade Greenland for nothing. He's actually not a big fan of PvP although him spamming "Ask to Trade" on Denmark and Canada's characters is probably accurate. On March 28 2025 06:49 Simberto wrote:I'd like to bring up a different topic that people in the US should really worry about. Apparently Trump is currently changing how elections work in the US. Your chances of getting another fair election are very quickly disappearing. https://apnews.com/article/trump-executive-order-elections-voting-constitution-8908477167fd65dc9cd485e1fde5b804(One source, i actually got if from German media though, this is just one of the first hits i found when googling) This just seems to be drowned out in all the other horrific bullshit the administration is doing, but it seems like a very problematic thing. Trump is clearly trying to make sure that he doesn't get voted out a second time, or ever again. (Anyone who thinks that he will respect term limits is a complete fool imo) Just another step away from democracy for the US. Which of these stood out to you the most of all the horrific bullshit: 1) Only counting votes that are cast and received by election day (What's German's policy, by the way) 2) Only having citizens vote in federal elections 3) Not having foreign nationals make financial political contributions 4) Prosecuting voter fraud and election crimes, and having secure election systems 5) Preventing noncitizens from participating in the administration of US elections Or is there something even worse in the EO I missed? Due to previous experiences, i no longer interact with you.
You don't have to interact with me, interact with yourself, read the EO and figure out what you actually have a problem with instead of shitting all over my country for fun because the AP said so, when the EO, that you obviously hadn't read yourself, is so fascist that its requirements are things that are even more lax than your own country's policies.
On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2025 22:58 oBlade wrote:On March 28 2025 04:52 decafchicken wrote:
You're talking about a guy who used the white house for a car commercial. He is completely liable to take Greenland by force. I haven't seen two less connected sentences. This is like a world record non sequitur. He liked a car so he's going to invade a treaty ally. On March 28 2025 05:39 Legan wrote:On March 28 2025 05:31 Simberto wrote:On March 28 2025 05:24 Dan HH wrote:On March 28 2025 04:02 Vivax wrote:
Maybe there‘s potential around Greenland for offshore oil drilling or north pole sources of energy.
Don‘t see what it gives strategically. Maybe it‘s where he wants to build vaults fallout-style like they did in Norway.
Consuming less energy is too hard to achieve. But everyone else are parasites. The charts beg to differ. You're way overthinking it. It makes the US occupy more space on the map, that's the main reason. That's how the nationalist brain works, all the European ones decorate their offices with a map of the largest extent their country has been at in history. And being the guy that expanded it is their holy grail. Ah, the Europa Universalis school of political thought. If Trump was much younger, I'm sure video games would be blamed for his views on how world politics work. He is just spamming Denmark to trade Greenland for nothing. He's actually not a big fan of PvP although him spamming "Ask to Trade" on Denmark and Canada's characters is probably accurate. On March 28 2025 06:49 Simberto wrote:I'd like to bring up a different topic that people in the US should really worry about. Apparently Trump is currently changing how elections work in the US. Your chances of getting another fair election are very quickly disappearing. https://apnews.com/article/trump-executive-order-elections-voting-constitution-8908477167fd65dc9cd485e1fde5b804(One source, i actually got if from German media though, this is just one of the first hits i found when googling) This just seems to be drowned out in all the other horrific bullshit the administration is doing, but it seems like a very problematic thing. Trump is clearly trying to make sure that he doesn't get voted out a second time, or ever again. (Anyone who thinks that he will respect term limits is a complete fool imo) Just another step away from democracy for the US. Which of these stood out to you the most of all the horrific bullshit: 1) Only counting votes that are cast and received by election day (What's German's policy, by the way) 2) Only having citizens vote in federal elections 3) Not having foreign nationals make financial political contributions 4) Prosecuting voter fraud and election crimes, and having secure election systems 5) Preventing noncitizens from participating in the administration of US elections Or is there something even worse in the EO I missed? 1 requires an ironclad belief in the reliability of the postal service to function. Now Germany is ranked among the very best in world, where is the US postal service in reliability to deliver mail by the next day?
No it doesn't. You have over a month to do a mail-in ballot.
On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
2) please show where this is currently a problem
The EO specifically enables new inter-agency and inter-government (federal, state, and local) database and information sharing to verify the integrity of voting rolls - meaning that only citizens are on them. This means they have not been sharing previously. That is a problem. I obviously cannot show the exact extent of that problem - nor can you, but at least one of us can support giving the tools to the specific parts of government whose job it is to enforce those, even if they were less vigilant in the past.
On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
3) Does President Musk know this is a deal breaker?
Musk is not a foreign national, he has multiple citizenship, but in the context of the US, by virtue of being a citizen, he isn't a foreign national.
On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
4) please show where this is currently a problem
Every violation of a federal election statute is a problem. Same as #2. Saying fraud or election crimes are not a problem because it is illegal, yet opposing enforcement of it, is roughly analogous to saying burning buildings are not a problem because arson is illegal, yet opposing fire departments.
On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
5) please show where this is currently a problem, and again, does President Musk know this is a deal breaker?
Musk is not a noncitizen, and administration of elections means for example being a poll worker, being in the secretary of state, having custody of ballots. Your cheap dunks don't fit - get the basic definitions of words down first to understand the issues at hand.
On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
We've had this song and dance a dozen times already so don't expect much further interaction on this. There is no wide spread election fraud, every time some small fraud is found it turns out to be Republicans. They are only doing this as a means to supress voters not secure the election.
You can't have had a song and dance a dozen times about an EO that came out 3 days ago. There doesn't have to be widespread election fraud. What kind of planet is that? "Let's fix this leaking window." "There's no evidence your basement is flooded." "How about just fixing the window since it's the window-fixers' job." Like I've heard of great man of history theory, but these days I'm leaning towards "man of history" theory. Literally 10% effort is enough to get something done with so many people doing nothing and just accepting the status quo.
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On March 29 2025 00:14 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2025 23:00 Simberto wrote:On March 28 2025 22:58 oBlade wrote:On March 28 2025 04:52 decafchicken wrote:
You're talking about a guy who used the white house for a car commercial. He is completely liable to take Greenland by force. I haven't seen two less connected sentences. This is like a world record non sequitur. He liked a car so he's going to invade a treaty ally. On March 28 2025 05:39 Legan wrote:On March 28 2025 05:31 Simberto wrote:On March 28 2025 05:24 Dan HH wrote:On March 28 2025 04:02 Vivax wrote:
Maybe there‘s potential around Greenland for offshore oil drilling or north pole sources of energy.
Don‘t see what it gives strategically. Maybe it‘s where he wants to build vaults fallout-style like they did in Norway.
Consuming less energy is too hard to achieve. But everyone else are parasites. The charts beg to differ. You're way overthinking it. It makes the US occupy more space on the map, that's the main reason. That's how the nationalist brain works, all the European ones decorate their offices with a map of the largest extent their country has been at in history. And being the guy that expanded it is their holy grail. Ah, the Europa Universalis school of political thought. If Trump was much younger, I'm sure video games would be blamed for his views on how world politics work. He is just spamming Denmark to trade Greenland for nothing. He's actually not a big fan of PvP although him spamming "Ask to Trade" on Denmark and Canada's characters is probably accurate. On March 28 2025 06:49 Simberto wrote:I'd like to bring up a different topic that people in the US should really worry about. Apparently Trump is currently changing how elections work in the US. Your chances of getting another fair election are very quickly disappearing. https://apnews.com/article/trump-executive-order-elections-voting-constitution-8908477167fd65dc9cd485e1fde5b804(One source, i actually got if from German media though, this is just one of the first hits i found when googling) This just seems to be drowned out in all the other horrific bullshit the administration is doing, but it seems like a very problematic thing. Trump is clearly trying to make sure that he doesn't get voted out a second time, or ever again. (Anyone who thinks that he will respect term limits is a complete fool imo) Just another step away from democracy for the US. Which of these stood out to you the most of all the horrific bullshit: 1) Only counting votes that are cast and received by election day (What's German's policy, by the way) 2) Only having citizens vote in federal elections 3) Not having foreign nationals make financial political contributions 4) Prosecuting voter fraud and election crimes, and having secure election systems 5) Preventing noncitizens from participating in the administration of US elections Or is there something even worse in the EO I missed? Due to previous experiences, i no longer interact with you. You don't have to interact with me, interact with yourself, + Show Spoiler + read the EO and figure out what you actually have a problem with instead of shitting all over my country for fun because the AP said so, when the EO, that you obviously hadn't read yourself, is so fascist that its requirements are things that are even more lax than your own country's policies. On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2025 22:58 oBlade wrote:On March 28 2025 04:52 decafchicken wrote:
You're talking about a guy who used the white house for a car commercial. He is completely liable to take Greenland by force. I haven't seen two less connected sentences. This is like a world record non sequitur. He liked a car so he's going to invade a treaty ally. On March 28 2025 05:39 Legan wrote:On March 28 2025 05:31 Simberto wrote:On March 28 2025 05:24 Dan HH wrote:On March 28 2025 04:02 Vivax wrote:
Maybe there‘s potential around Greenland for offshore oil drilling or north pole sources of energy.
Don‘t see what it gives strategically. Maybe it‘s where he wants to build vaults fallout-style like they did in Norway.
Consuming less energy is too hard to achieve. But everyone else are parasites. The charts beg to differ. You're way overthinking it. It makes the US occupy more space on the map, that's the main reason. That's how the nationalist brain works, all the European ones decorate their offices with a map of the largest extent their country has been at in history. And being the guy that expanded it is their holy grail. Ah, the Europa Universalis school of political thought. If Trump was much younger, I'm sure video games would be blamed for his views on how world politics work. He is just spamming Denmark to trade Greenland for nothing. He's actually not a big fan of PvP although him spamming "Ask to Trade" on Denmark and Canada's characters is probably accurate. On March 28 2025 06:49 Simberto wrote:I'd like to bring up a different topic that people in the US should really worry about. Apparently Trump is currently changing how elections work in the US. Your chances of getting another fair election are very quickly disappearing. https://apnews.com/article/trump-executive-order-elections-voting-constitution-8908477167fd65dc9cd485e1fde5b804(One source, i actually got if from German media though, this is just one of the first hits i found when googling) This just seems to be drowned out in all the other horrific bullshit the administration is doing, but it seems like a very problematic thing. Trump is clearly trying to make sure that he doesn't get voted out a second time, or ever again. (Anyone who thinks that he will respect term limits is a complete fool imo) Just another step away from democracy for the US. Which of these stood out to you the most of all the horrific bullshit: 1) Only counting votes that are cast and received by election day (What's German's policy, by the way) 2) Only having citizens vote in federal elections 3) Not having foreign nationals make financial political contributions 4) Prosecuting voter fraud and election crimes, and having secure election systems 5) Preventing noncitizens from participating in the administration of US elections Or is there something even worse in the EO I missed? 1 requires an ironclad belief in the reliability of the postal service to function. Now Germany is ranked among the very best in world, where is the US postal service in reliability to deliver mail by the next day? No it doesn't. You have over a month to do a mail-in ballot. On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
2) please show where this is currently a problem The EO specifically enables new inter-agency and inter-government (federal, state, and local) database and information sharing to verify the integrity of voting rolls - meaning that only citizens are on them. This means they have not been sharing previously. That is a problem. I obviously cannot show the exact extent of that problem - nor can you, but at least one of us can support giving the tools to the specific parts of government whose job it is to enforce those, even if they were less vigilant in the past. On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
3) Does President Musk know this is a deal breaker? Musk is not a foreign national, he has multiple citizenship, but in the context of the US, by virtue of being a citizen, he isn't a foreign national. On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
4) please show where this is currently a problem Every violation of a federal election statute is a problem. Same as #2. Saying fraud or election crimes are not a problem because it is illegal, yet opposing enforcement of it, is roughly analogous to saying burning buildings are not a problem because arson is illegal, yet opposing fire departments. On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
5) please show where this is currently a problem, and again, does President Musk know this is a deal breaker? Musk is not a noncitizen, and administration of elections means for example being a poll worker, being in the secretary of state, having custody of ballots. Your cheap dunks don't fit - get the basic definitions of words down first to understand the issues at hand. On March 28 2025 23:21 Gorsameth wrote:
We've had this song and dance a dozen times already so don't expect much further interaction on this. There is no wide spread election fraud, every time some small fraud is found it turns out to be Republicans. They are only doing this as a means to supress voters not secure the election. You can't have had a song and dance a dozen times about an EO that came out 3 days ago. There doesn't have to be widespread election fraud. What kind of planet is that? "Let's fix this leaking window." "There's no evidence your basement is flooded." "How about just fixing the window since it's the window-fixers' job." Like I've heard of great man of history theory, but these days I'm leaning towards "man of history" theory. Literally 10% effort is enough to get something done with so many people doing nothing and just accepting the status quo.
ThirdHorizons: Don't tempt me.
Just out of curiosity, you know you're a bit of an aberration in this thread, what do you see as the purpose of your posting here?
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No we don't say election fraud is not a problem because its illegal, we say its not a problem because every election the results are checked and no fraud is found.
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No, no, the guy that threatened the Georgia secretary of state to add him fictional votes and when that didn't happen then threatened the vice-president to ignore what people voted for and when that didn't happen then called a mob to the Capitol on certification day to attempt a coup - that guy - is super concerned about the sanctity and fairness of the electoral process.
This is all very objective, he's not trying to influence the result of future elections in favor his movement, he's just a democracy and correctness nerd trying to do what's right.
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On March 28 2025 06:02 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2025 05:24 Dan HH wrote:On March 28 2025 04:02 Vivax wrote:
Maybe there‘s potential around Greenland for offshore oil drilling or north pole sources of energy.
Don‘t see what it gives strategically. Maybe it‘s where he wants to build vaults fallout-style like they did in Norway.
Consuming less energy is too hard to achieve. But everyone else are parasites. The charts beg to differ. You're way overthinking it. It makes the US occupy more space on the map, that's the main reason. That's how the nationalist brain works, all the European ones decorate their offices with a map of the largest extent their country has been at in history. And being the guy that expanded it is their holy grail. He decided or has been told that fighting Russia isn‘t worth it. It‘s better to extort his former allies for scraps. You don‘t see much about the role the Saudis play, being the biggest oil producer before Rosneft. Europe was well along the way of getting hooked to Saudi, Russian and Chinese economies and still is. Minus the Russian economy because they have indirect US support now. Scummy Trump. What if Denmark and Greenland make the concessions and the war ends afterwards with a Russian victory? They gain absolutely nothing but invested everything. Apparently it‘s for national security. Why all of Greenland ? Using ports and bases is already possible I bet.
An agreement was made in the 1950s in which the USA can essentially build as many bases and station as much personnel in Greenland as they want - they just have to notify Denmark and Greenland. The arguments about defence is as dumb as any other Trump argument.
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On March 28 2025 16:28 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2025 11:34 Sermokala wrote:
We get it, you think you're better then us, you think nothing we do is effective and we should just be lineing up behind you. The dance was old years ago and just got worse when you started calling us genocide supporters. You trying to get past that by cosplaying "hello fellow genocide supporters" without changing any part of what you're saying or how you're saying that isn't working and isn't going to work in the future.
You can keep this up as long as you want to and we will support you if this is what you need to get through the day but for your sake please get better and learn to treat others as human beings worthy of your respect. You of all people complaining about this is just perfect
Thank you, I'm glad I was able to give you the impression that I'm someone that sees human beings as having value and worth treating with respect. Have you been inspired to this very low standard or are you still in a place where you treat others with cruelty for their own good?
But really this threads standards are a guy who's larping as multiple personas telling someone else that they're an apparition in the thread and asking why they're posting.
It really says a lot about the communists in America with how successful trump is at inspiring people to unite against him everywhere else in the world. That even they couldn't find it in themselves to resist him in any meaningful way.
One of the big issues with what Trump is proposing with his election reforms to make it harder to vote for no reason is specifically to make it that you need documentation to register, not ID. That means a birth certificate is the most likely item that people would be able to register to vote with. Which isn't an issue until you realize that women for a long time have been changing their last names when they get married, which means that their birth certificate alone wouldn't be enough they would also need to have the paperwork certified with their marriage certificate and the name change.
But hey its alright you will be allowed your constitutional rights as long as you keep up to date papers with you at all times.
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On March 29 2025 02:30 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2025 06:02 Vivax wrote:On March 28 2025 05:24 Dan HH wrote:On March 28 2025 04:02 Vivax wrote:
Maybe there‘s potential around Greenland for offshore oil drilling or north pole sources of energy.
Don‘t see what it gives strategically. Maybe it‘s where he wants to build vaults fallout-style like they did in Norway.
Consuming less energy is too hard to achieve. But everyone else are parasites. The charts beg to differ. You're way overthinking it. It makes the US occupy more space on the map, that's the main reason. That's how the nationalist brain works, all the European ones decorate their offices with a map of the largest extent their country has been at in history. And being the guy that expanded it is their holy grail. He decided or has been told that fighting Russia isn‘t worth it. It‘s better to extort his former allies for scraps. You don‘t see much about the role the Saudis play, being the biggest oil producer before Rosneft. Europe was well along the way of getting hooked to Saudi, Russian and Chinese economies and still is. Minus the Russian economy because they have indirect US support now. Scummy Trump. What if Denmark and Greenland make the concessions and the war ends afterwards with a Russian victory? They gain absolutely nothing but invested everything. Apparently it‘s for national security. Why all of Greenland ? Using ports and bases is already possible I bet. An agreement was made in the 1950s in which the USA can essentially build as many bases and station as much personnel in Greenland as they want - they just have to notify Denmark and Greenland. The arguments about defence is as dumb as any other Trump argument.
DanHH has a point I guess.
The man thinks a countrys greatness is determined by geographical expansion and how many places are named after it.
Most of the world did just fine in developing without requiring annexation.
The only time annexing is required is when you want to impose an authoritarian rule.
There‘s got to be a better way of reaching worldwide stability than by falling back into the imperialist school of thought.
But it‘s unpopular, and being popular is what he cares about the most.
That‘s the flaw of democracy. It‘s all that matters.
It also means that he is the reflection of American society.
Many little Trumps.
I think Denmark will fold here. Could be because the US is afraid that Europe falls under Russian control in the long term and Greenland soothes that fear. Sucks to be in the middle.
Or I‘m overthinking it.
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On March 29 2025 09:47 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2025 16:28 BlackJack wrote:On March 28 2025 11:34 Sermokala wrote:
We get it, you think you're better then us, you think nothing we do is effective and we should just be lineing up behind you. The dance was old years ago and just got worse when you started calling us genocide supporters. You trying to get past that by cosplaying "hello fellow genocide supporters" without changing any part of what you're saying or how you're saying that isn't working and isn't going to work in the future.
You can keep this up as long as you want to and we will support you if this is what you need to get through the day but for your sake please get better and learn to treat others as human beings worthy of your respect. You of all people complaining about this is just perfect Thank you, I'm glad I was able to give you the impression that I'm someone that sees human beings as having value and worth treating with respect. Have you been inspired to this very low standard or are you still in a place where you treat others with cruelty for their own good? But really this threads standards are a guy who's larping as multiple personas telling someone else that they're an apparition in the thread and asking why they're posting. It really says a lot about the communists in America with how successful trump is at inspiring people to unite against him everywhere else in the world. That even they couldn't find it in themselves to resist him in any meaningful way. One of the big issues with what Trump is proposing with his election reforms to make it harder to vote for no reason is specifically to make it that you need documentation to register, not ID. That means a birth certificate is the most likely item that people would be able to register to vote with. Which isn't an issue until you realize that women for a long time have been changing their last names when they get married, which means that their birth certificate alone wouldn't be enough they would also need to have the paperwork certified with their marriage certificate and the name change. But hey its alright you will be allowed your constitutional rights as long as you keep up to date papers with you at all times.
I think in a parallel universe where the Dems supported Palestine it would take you 5 nanoseconds before you started calling the Trump voters genocide supporters not worthy of respect and it would give you a sense of moral superiority because your horse doesn’t support Israel. You play the same game as GH. You’re just salty GH has you beat on this one.
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On March 29 2025 10:55 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2025 02:30 Ghostcom wrote:On March 28 2025 06:02 Vivax wrote:On March 28 2025 05:24 Dan HH wrote:On March 28 2025 04:02 Vivax wrote:
Maybe there‘s potential around Greenland for offshore oil drilling or north pole sources of energy.
Don‘t see what it gives strategically. Maybe it‘s where he wants to build vaults fallout-style like they did in Norway.
Consuming less energy is too hard to achieve. But everyone else are parasites. The charts beg to differ. You're way overthinking it. It makes the US occupy more space on the map, that's the main reason. That's how the nationalist brain works, all the European ones decorate their offices with a map of the largest extent their country has been at in history. And being the guy that expanded it is their holy grail. He decided or has been told that fighting Russia isn‘t worth it. It‘s better to extort his former allies for scraps. You don‘t see much about the role the Saudis play, being the biggest oil producer before Rosneft. Europe was well along the way of getting hooked to Saudi, Russian and Chinese economies and still is. Minus the Russian economy because they have indirect US support now. Scummy Trump. What if Denmark and Greenland make the concessions and the war ends afterwards with a Russian victory? They gain absolutely nothing but invested everything. Apparently it‘s for national security. Why all of Greenland ? Using ports and bases is already possible I bet. An agreement was made in the 1950s in which the USA can essentially build as many bases and station as much personnel in Greenland as they want - they just have to notify Denmark and Greenland. The arguments about defence is as dumb as any other Trump argument. DanHH has a point I guess. The man thinks a countrys greatness is determined by geographical expansion and how many places are named after it. Most of the world did just fine in developing without requiring annexation. The only time annexing is required is when you want to impose an authoritarian rule. There‘s got to be a better way of reaching worldwide stability than by falling back into the imperialist school of thought. But it‘s unpopular, and being popular is what he cares about the most. That‘s the flaw of democracy. It‘s all that matters. It also means that he is the reflection of American society. Many little Trumps. I think Denmark will fold here. Could be because the US is afraid that Europe falls under Russian control in the long term and Greenland soothes that fear. Sucks to be in the middle. Or I‘m overthinking it.
The US is actively helping Europe fall under Russia but it fears that it does?
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Trump is - once again - jeopardizing the rights of federal workers.
Trump signs order ending union bargaining rights for wide swaths of federal employees
President Trump has signed an executive order ending collective bargaining for wide swaths of federal employees, as part of his broader campaign to reshape the U.S. government's workforce. The largest federal employee union says the order affects over 1 million workers.
In a fact sheet, the White House says the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (CSRA) gives him the authority to halt collective bargaining at agencies with national security missions.
This provision has traditionally applied to certain employees at agencies such as the CIA, the FBI or the National Security Agency.
But Trump's order, signed late Thursday, is more far-reaching, and includes employees whose jobs touch on national defense, border security, foreign relations, energy security, pandemic preparedness, the economy, public safety and cybersecurity.
https://www.npr.org/2025/03/28/nx-s1-5343474/trump-collective-bargaining-unions-federal-employees
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Sounds like a situation where the unions should demonstrate their power.
Unions don't have power because the president gives it to them. Unions have power because collectively, workers can fight. So they should. Now.
If they don't strike now, they are proving that they are toothless and worthless.
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United States24768 Posts
Trump will just use the strike as justification to fire half of the striking workers. A strike doesn't work if the president is trying to tear it all down.
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If it's tore down then it doesn't work either. Call his bluff. What is he going to do? Hire incompetent people? Come on man..
Belgium's been on strike basically since the new government announced their plans. I've been hating it since school and public transit's been disrupted but I understand their plight kinda.
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United States24768 Posts
On March 29 2025 20:11 Uldridge wrote:
If it's tore down then it doesn't work either. Call his bluff. What is he going to do? Hire incompetent people? Come on man..
I think you are underestimating the consequences here. We are talking lots of innocent people dying due to the government being dysfunctional/absent before it is theoretically corrected. The government below the political appointee level is trying to prevent that, and one of the only effective tools they have right now is that it's illegal for Trump and team to arbitrarily fire people (and federal injunctions are even managing to expand this to probationary employees). By the time the government is found "not to work" it's too late to undo the damage. Right now, only team Trump is pushing us toward that outcome... not the federal employees themselves. If people want to leave the federal government because they can't take all the attacks anymore, I won't hold it against them, but a strike is incompatible with your oath when you have, for example, a national defense/security mission.
The Reduction in Force (RIF) process is designed to also not allow things to become too arbitrary and damaging, but we'll see.
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On March 29 2025 20:21 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2025 20:11 Uldridge wrote:
If it's tore down then it doesn't work either. Call his bluff. What is he going to do? Hire incompetent people? Come on man..
I think you are underestimating the consequences here. We are talking lots of innocent people dying due to the government being dysfunctional/absent before it is theoretically corrected. The government below the political appointee level is trying to prevent that, and one of the only effective tools they have right now is that it's illegal for Trump and team to arbitrarily fire people (and federal injunctions are even managing to expand this to probationary employees). By the time the government is found "not to work" it's too late to undo the damage. Right now, only team Trump is pushing us toward that outcome... not the federal employees themselves. If people want to leave the federal government because they can't take all the attacks anymore, I won't hold it against them, but a strike is incompatible with your oath when you have, for example, a national defense/security mission. The Reduction in Force (RIF) process is designed to also not allow things to become too arbitrary and damaging, but we'll see.
In that case you're arguing that the EO is meaningless because government workers already didn't have the right to collective bargaining, because the tool used there is the strike, and that's against their oath. So either the EO is a big deal, and the unions should use their power, or the EO is a nothingburger that emphasizes that you don't have the right to do something that you already didn't have. What is it?
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United States24768 Posts
I won't argue the EO is meaningless since collective bargaining is beneficial for the workers. I'm saying striking doesn't work when the guy in charge of the company wants it to "lose money" (by his actions, if not his intent). Also, in this case the company "losing money" is "really bad things happening", which the guy in charge is currently okay with, crazy as that is. Striking is giving Trump the pretext to fire all the people he wants to fire. Right now, he can't fire them.
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On March 29 2025 21:19 micronesia wrote:
I won't argue the EO is meaningless since collective bargaining is beneficial for the workers. I'm saying striking doesn't work when the guy in charge of the company wants it to "lose money" (by his actions, if not his intent). Also, in this case the company "losing money" is "really bad things happening", which the guy in charge is currently okay with, crazy as that is. Striking is giving Trump the pretext to fire all the people he wants to fire. Right now, he can't fire them. I don't get that last part, if Trump can't fire government employees at will, why can he suddenly fire them during a strike?
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On March 29 2025 21:19 micronesia wrote:
I won't argue the EO is meaningless since collective bargaining is beneficial for the workers. I'm saying striking doesn't work when the guy in charge of the company wants it to "lose money" (by his actions, if not his intent). Also, in this case the company "losing money" is "really bad things happening", which the guy in charge is currently okay with, crazy as that is. Striking is giving Trump the pretext to fire all the people he wants to fire. Right now, he can't fire them.
So either the unions have the right to collectively bargain. That right was won with strikes and relies on the threat of strikes to be effective. You could therefore organize strikes to fight for your continued right to collective bargaining. That would not give Trump the right to fire you, or you never really had the right to collective bargaining in the first place, it was just a convenient charade that people kinda went along with. Trump is merely showing that it was always a charade.
All I'm getting from this is that you personally don't want to strike because you think that it'd be worse for the country if you strike than if you don't. That's just a matter of communication. Any time the railway workers here strike, it's a pain in the ass for everyone. Sometimes people get upset at the railway workers for their idiotic and unrealistic demands. Sometimes people get upset at the company for their stubborn profiteering on the backs of their laborers. It's a matter of communication and public opinion whether the people who you're supposed to protect will stand *with* you against Trump's fascistic demands, or will turn against you for your unwillingness to bend the knee and do your job.
I'd argue that you can easily win that PR battle and force Trump's hand. And if Trump fires the lot of you and everything goes to shit, he'll have a serious problem of outraged citizens on his hands.
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US private salaries average $65k annually. Federal employees average $106k. When the former are the ones paying and employing the latter through the representation they voted for, I'm inclined to agree they'll be able to make it without collective bargaining for a while.
"President Trump's latest executive order is a disgraceful and retaliatory attack on the rights of hundreds of thousands of patriotic American civil servants—nearly one-third of whom are veterans — simply because they are members of a union that stands up to his harmful policies," wrote Everett Kelley, president of the American Federation of Government Employees, in a statement.
This guy's sentiments reek of ideological capture which is not appropriate for a government labor union, and give immediate credence to the administration's claim "Certain Federal unions have declared war on President Trump's agenda." Smells like a swampy deepstate.
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United States24768 Posts
On March 29 2025 21:24 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2025 21:19 micronesia wrote:
I won't argue the EO is meaningless since collective bargaining is beneficial for the workers. I'm saying striking doesn't work when the guy in charge of the company wants it to "lose money" (by his actions, if not his intent). Also, in this case the company "losing money" is "really bad things happening", which the guy in charge is currently okay with, crazy as that is. Striking is giving Trump the pretext to fire all the people he wants to fire. Right now, he can't fire them. I don't get that last part, if Trump can't fire government employees at will, why can he suddenly fire them during a strike?
Look to the 1981 air traffic controllers strike for precedent: On August 3, 1981, the majority of PATCO members went on strike, breaking a 1955 law that banned government employees from striking that had never previously been enforced (Schalch). This law, which was upheld by the Supreme Court in 1971, allowed for punishments including fines and up to one year of jail time (Glass). However, while the law was on the books, a gentlemen's agreement had effectively been in place that prevented the firing of striking workers, which lead to no postal workers being fired during a strike in 1970 (Pardlo).
Unionized executive branch employees who strike are committing a crime, and while I won't lose any sleep over the morality of breaking the law in these circumstances, Reagan showed that such situations can be used to just fire whoever you want, even though normally the President can't. There are a lot of executive branch employees Trump wants to fire right now but can't because of their normal workplace protections. If employees strike, he could for example just fire all of them who are in databases for contributing to the Harris campaign or earlier anti-Trump donations. In a Reduction in Force (RIF), the rules are more strict about how employees are chosen to get laid off.
That last part I'm just speculating how things will go, though.
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EPT
