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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On March 15 2025 10:16 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 01:38 Vivax wrote:
The space programs of various billionaires are a waste of resources. Satellites I can see for their usefulness or missions for research purposes. Rocket rides for rich people are peak decadence.
enthusiasm for space programs has an inverse correlation with IQ change my mind.
Thinking IQ is a meaningful quantification of intelligence has an inverse correlation with intelligence
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On March 15 2025 11:09 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 10:16 baal wrote:On March 15 2025 01:38 Vivax wrote:
The space programs of various billionaires are a waste of resources. Satellites I can see for their usefulness or missions for research purposes. Rocket rides for rich people are peak decadence.
enthusiasm for space programs has an inverse correlation with IQ change my mind. Thinking IQ is a meaningful quantification of intelligent has an inverse correlation with intelligence
Low IQ comment
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Kerbal space program is pretty challenging.
Looking at parts of the economy you‘d think that consuming depletable resources even for stupid reasons is somehow mandatory for its survival while it should be the opposite.
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So Trump's ultimate goal is to eliminate income tax and get the revenue from income tax elsewhere. The proposed US Government Tariffs act similarly to Canada's GST. We have a consumer purchasing a consumer product paying the tax. I think Trump's vision for how a tax system should work is fucking amazing. You have the option of cranking up the tax higher for BS frivolous things.
On February 17 2022 01:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
The GST was a brilliant measure.
I'd like to see the GST increased and income tax lowered or ended. I think productive work is virtuous whereas consumption is meaningless. Anyone can consume. I liken purchasing a Porsche that can reach 100 KM/H in 4 seconds to alcohol purchases or cigarettes purchases. These all should have "sin taxes". I'm all for taxing the hell out of sugar filled soda pop as well.
I think if consumption based taxes and "sin taxes" are jacked way up then Canada can eliminate all income taxes for anyone making less than 30K.
I want to see a Canada where every healthy poor person has a legit shot at becoming upper middle class.
I am all for massive tariffs on alcohol. Trump is talking about a 200% on some alcohol? Great! I'd like to see tariffs on sugar based soda pops.. cigarettes ... cigars.. you name it.
Giant Tariffs on $350,000 Porsches? GREAT!
Upper middle class people and above invent stupid ways to spend money on frivolous items. TAX THE FUCK OUT OF IT.
I'll repeat a comment I've been making for 20 years.... Canada should eliminate income tax for those making under $75K and replace that lost income with an increase in GST and and special "Hyper GST" on cigars, sugar based soda pops, and elite imported luxury sports cars.... etc etc etc. When Canada first introduced the GST ... that is where it was going. Now, its just another tax.
Regarding the USA, I do not know if Trump will be able to eliminate income tax for those making under 150K. However, I hope he can pull it off. At least, he is on the right track and has a vision/mindset congruent with a proper system of taxation.
Structuring the tax system in these ways offers more opportunity to the working poor and lower middle classes who have clean living habits.
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On March 15 2025 05:22 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? Horror story? No. It's not exactly how I would do things, as I think just a tad bit slower would do wonders both for doing things competently and with less public outcry (which for now is mainly on one side, but still). With the above proviso, I am OK with much of what is happening domestically. The administrative state had violated its part of the pact to be neutral, and therefore deserves to learn a lesson in ways the laws allow. Conservatives have long argued that much of the bureaucracy should be more accountable to the executive. I think it's unfortunate the power of the presidency continues to grow, but no party wants to undo it. I think compared to Biden's...testing of limits Trump is tame (Biden had the lawless eviction moratorium, student loan bailout attempt, and a dereliction of duty at the border, for example). That being said, I disagree with much of it, as i always have. Tariffs and ignoring the debt, for example. I agree with trying to heavily turn our defense policy towards Asia and the Pacific, something that Obama really started. As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I personally don't care if you do a structured withdrawal of bases and other cost drivers in Europe. The real problem is that we aren't even sure you respect alliances and good relations any longer. Basically, it is no longer certain you are an ally that we should support when you start your next inevitable war since we aren't certain you would support us if a war is forced on us. This also means it is a big risk to buy US military equipment since we aren't certain about long term support and updates. Basically breaking down the military specialization that has been going on to reduce duplicate programs. The next F35 program will not be bought into by Europe as things are trending. Making it cost 3-4x as much for the US. I personally think it would have been a great idea to let Italy make small naval ships. US doing carriers and selling to allies. Swedes making short distance and shallow water subs. Basically increasing volume for each program. But any cooperation like that assumes good and stable long term relations, else it is an unacceptable risk. Right now the US is trending towards where this type of cooperation isn't something another nation will accept in a new military product. Edit on the relations topic. Consider your best friend for the last 20 years is also your room mate. Due to changing priorities and economics they decide they have to move out. When doing this they start befriending your neighbor that scrapes your car when she thinks nobody is looking. They also are unclear on when they moving so you can't start finding somebody else to share the rent, they instead claim they will undercut you at work to take your position. This is basically how I see the US acting towards the EU recently.
Like I said the other day I really don't think the US will have any objection to selling things if Europeans want to buy them lol. Maybe there is worry about support for those weapons? I don't know, you can't just freeze everything in amber because change is uncomfortable. Again, America has a different priority and think it's understandable. So I get the concern, about "relations" in general but that can't be a reason to keep doing what we're doing. What is the best argument for not having Europe do more?
Maybe it's...
On March 15 2025 07:12 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I saw an internet comment from a german that said "Just to be clear, you want us to build the strongest army in Europe capable of marching east through Poland? We don't want any misunderstandings." It's great if Europe contributes more to our collective defense but it's terrible if we have an every-man-for-himself arms race across the globe because our allies can no longer rely on us. Perhaps you can't have the former without the latter considering how long its been with Europe failing to meet NATO benchmarks. I also agree wholeheartedly that it's often the same people that would have mocked American hegemony and military spending a decade ago that are now complaining they can no longer rely on the US. I think we had enjoyed an era of relative peace for so long that they naively assumed we were beyond the era of large countries invading one another on a global scale.
Well I think we're a long way from that, I'm not sure it would take WWII rearmament to at least keep the Russians from being bad neighbors? Atm the US isn't even asking too much from Europe in other theaters (maybe I'm wrong). While I hope beefing up military strength doesn't bring is back to ye olden days of more European land wars it seems like we can risk going a little further. IMO it's a lack of American naivete that brings this situation about. The days of being hopeful about China are over, so choices have to be made. I do get the concern tho. Maybe Europe could directly pay for a stronger America military presence! Somehow I doubt that would have gone over well ever lol.
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On March 15 2025 15:05 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 05:22 Yurie wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? Horror story? No. It's not exactly how I would do things, as I think just a tad bit slower would do wonders both for doing things competently and with less public outcry (which for now is mainly on one side, but still). With the above proviso, I am OK with much of what is happening domestically. The administrative state had violated its part of the pact to be neutral, and therefore deserves to learn a lesson in ways the laws allow. Conservatives have long argued that much of the bureaucracy should be more accountable to the executive. I think it's unfortunate the power of the presidency continues to grow, but no party wants to undo it. I think compared to Biden's...testing of limits Trump is tame (Biden had the lawless eviction moratorium, student loan bailout attempt, and a dereliction of duty at the border, for example). That being said, I disagree with much of it, as i always have. Tariffs and ignoring the debt, for example. I agree with trying to heavily turn our defense policy towards Asia and the Pacific, something that Obama really started. As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I personally don't care if you do a structured withdrawal of bases and other cost drivers in Europe. The real problem is that we aren't even sure you respect alliances and good relations any longer. Basically, it is no longer certain you are an ally that we should support when you start your next inevitable war since we aren't certain you would support us if a war is forced on us. This also means it is a big risk to buy US military equipment since we aren't certain about long term support and updates. Basically breaking down the military specialization that has been going on to reduce duplicate programs. The next F35 program will not be bought into by Europe as things are trending. Making it cost 3-4x as much for the US. I personally think it would have been a great idea to let Italy make small naval ships. US doing carriers and selling to allies. Swedes making short distance and shallow water subs. Basically increasing volume for each program. But any cooperation like that assumes good and stable long term relations, else it is an unacceptable risk. Right now the US is trending towards where this type of cooperation isn't something another nation will accept in a new military product. Edit on the relations topic. Consider your best friend for the last 20 years is also your room mate. Due to changing priorities and economics they decide they have to move out. When doing this they start befriending your neighbor that scrapes your car when she thinks nobody is looking. They also are unclear on when they moving so you can't start finding somebody else to share the rent, they instead claim they will undercut you at work to take your position. This is basically how I see the US acting towards the EU recently. Like I said the other day I really don't think the US will have any objection to selling things if Europeans want to buy them lol. Maybe there is worry about support for those weapons? I don't know, you can't just freeze everything in amber because change is uncomfortable. Again, America has a different priority and think it's understandable. So I get the concern, about "relations" in general but that can't be a reason to keep doing what we're doing. What is the best argument for not having Europe do more? Maybe it's... Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 07:12 BlackJack wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I saw an internet comment from a german that said "Just to be clear, you want us to build the strongest army in Europe capable of marching east through Poland? We don't want any misunderstandings." It's great if Europe contributes more to our collective defense but it's terrible if we have an every-man-for-himself arms race across the globe because our allies can no longer rely on us. Perhaps you can't have the former without the latter considering how long its been with Europe failing to meet NATO benchmarks. I also agree wholeheartedly that it's often the same people that would have mocked American hegemony and military spending a decade ago that are now complaining they can no longer rely on the US. I think we had enjoyed an era of relative peace for so long that they naively assumed we were beyond the era of large countries invading one another on a global scale. Well I think we're a long way from that, I'm not sure it would take WWII rearmament to at least keep the Russians from being bad neighbors? Atm the US isn't even asking too much from Europe in other theaters (maybe I'm wrong). While I hope beefing up military strength doesn't bring is back to ye olden days of more European land wars it seems like we can risk going a little further. IMO it's a lack of American naivete that brings this situation about. The days of being hopeful about China are over, so choices have to be made. I do get the concern tho. Maybe Europe could directly pay for a stronger America military presence! Somehow I doubt that would have gone over well ever lol.
The only way to stay completely safe is to have nukes -- look what happened to Ukraine when they got rid of theirs. This just means that there are going to be a lot more nukes around.
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On March 15 2025 15:05 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 05:22 Yurie wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? Horror story? No. It's not exactly how I would do things, as I think just a tad bit slower would do wonders both for doing things competently and with less public outcry (which for now is mainly on one side, but still). With the above proviso, I am OK with much of what is happening domestically. The administrative state had violated its part of the pact to be neutral, and therefore deserves to learn a lesson in ways the laws allow. Conservatives have long argued that much of the bureaucracy should be more accountable to the executive. I think it's unfortunate the power of the presidency continues to grow, but no party wants to undo it. I think compared to Biden's...testing of limits Trump is tame (Biden had the lawless eviction moratorium, student loan bailout attempt, and a dereliction of duty at the border, for example). That being said, I disagree with much of it, as i always have. Tariffs and ignoring the debt, for example. I agree with trying to heavily turn our defense policy towards Asia and the Pacific, something that Obama really started. As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I personally don't care if you do a structured withdrawal of bases and other cost drivers in Europe. The real problem is that we aren't even sure you respect alliances and good relations any longer. Basically, it is no longer certain you are an ally that we should support when you start your next inevitable war since we aren't certain you would support us if a war is forced on us. This also means it is a big risk to buy US military equipment since we aren't certain about long term support and updates. Basically breaking down the military specialization that has been going on to reduce duplicate programs. The next F35 program will not be bought into by Europe as things are trending. Making it cost 3-4x as much for the US. I personally think it would have been a great idea to let Italy make small naval ships. US doing carriers and selling to allies. Swedes making short distance and shallow water subs. Basically increasing volume for each program. But any cooperation like that assumes good and stable long term relations, else it is an unacceptable risk. Right now the US is trending towards where this type of cooperation isn't something another nation will accept in a new military product. Edit on the relations topic. Consider your best friend for the last 20 years is also your room mate. Due to changing priorities and economics they decide they have to move out. When doing this they start befriending your neighbor that scrapes your car when she thinks nobody is looking. They also are unclear on when they moving so you can't start finding somebody else to share the rent, they instead claim they will undercut you at work to take your position. This is basically how I see the US acting towards the EU recently. Like I said the other day I really don't think the US will have any objection to selling things if Europeans want to buy them lol. Maybe there is worry about support for those weapons? I don't know, you can't just freeze everything in amber because change is uncomfortable. Again, America has a different priority and think it's understandable. So I get the concern, about "relations" in general but that can't be a reason to keep doing what we're doing. What is the best argument for not having Europe do more? Maybe it's...
As I have stated multiple times. I am ok, not happy but ok with the US pulling out of Europe. They are still our friend and ally in that scenario. Nato security guarantees both ways is still there so we don't need more nukes in Europe at least. In a long war the US would slowly amble its fleet and army over to support but they are not there for the start. All ok.
The problem is that the way it is being done craters trust. A security alliance is built on the trust that members will act if it is needed. As the US acts now the assumption has to be that when there is a Republican president that isn't a hawk they will not honor alliances. That is where the method and soft factors such as relations come into it. If there is no trust we have to assume the US is an opponent every 4 years and thus make no long term agreements. Which means any large investment has to be scrapped and holes in EU legislation favoring the US should probably be closed.
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On March 15 2025 15:05 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 05:22 Yurie wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? Horror story? No. It's not exactly how I would do things, as I think just a tad bit slower would do wonders both for doing things competently and with less public outcry (which for now is mainly on one side, but still). With the above proviso, I am OK with much of what is happening domestically. The administrative state had violated its part of the pact to be neutral, and therefore deserves to learn a lesson in ways the laws allow. Conservatives have long argued that much of the bureaucracy should be more accountable to the executive. I think it's unfortunate the power of the presidency continues to grow, but no party wants to undo it. I think compared to Biden's...testing of limits Trump is tame (Biden had the lawless eviction moratorium, student loan bailout attempt, and a dereliction of duty at the border, for example). That being said, I disagree with much of it, as i always have. Tariffs and ignoring the debt, for example. I agree with trying to heavily turn our defense policy towards Asia and the Pacific, something that Obama really started. As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I personally don't care if you do a structured withdrawal of bases and other cost drivers in Europe. The real problem is that we aren't even sure you respect alliances and good relations any longer. Basically, it is no longer certain you are an ally that we should support when you start your next inevitable war since we aren't certain you would support us if a war is forced on us. This also means it is a big risk to buy US military equipment since we aren't certain about long term support and updates. Basically breaking down the military specialization that has been going on to reduce duplicate programs. The next F35 program will not be bought into by Europe as things are trending. Making it cost 3-4x as much for the US. I personally think it would have been a great idea to let Italy make small naval ships. US doing carriers and selling to allies. Swedes making short distance and shallow water subs. Basically increasing volume for each program. But any cooperation like that assumes good and stable long term relations, else it is an unacceptable risk. Right now the US is trending towards where this type of cooperation isn't something another nation will accept in a new military product. Edit on the relations topic. Consider your best friend for the last 20 years is also your room mate. Due to changing priorities and economics they decide they have to move out. When doing this they start befriending your neighbor that scrapes your car when she thinks nobody is looking. They also are unclear on when they moving so you can't start finding somebody else to share the rent, they instead claim they will undercut you at work to take your position. This is basically how I see the US acting towards the EU recently. Like I said the other day I really don't think the US will have any objection to selling things if Europeans want to buy them lol. Maybe there is worry about support for those weapons? I don't know, you can't just freeze everything in amber because change is uncomfortable. Again, America has a different priority and think it's understandable. So I get the concern, about "relations" in general but that can't be a reason to keep doing what we're doing. What is the best argument for not having Europe do more? Maybe it's... Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 07:12 BlackJack wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I saw an internet comment from a german that said "Just to be clear, you want us to build the strongest army in Europe capable of marching east through Poland? We don't want any misunderstandings." It's great if Europe contributes more to our collective defense but it's terrible if we have an every-man-for-himself arms race across the globe because our allies can no longer rely on us. Perhaps you can't have the former without the latter considering how long its been with Europe failing to meet NATO benchmarks. I also agree wholeheartedly that it's often the same people that would have mocked American hegemony and military spending a decade ago that are now complaining they can no longer rely on the US. I think we had enjoyed an era of relative peace for so long that they naively assumed we were beyond the era of large countries invading one another on a global scale. Well I think we're a long way from that, I'm not sure it would take WWII rearmament to at least keep the Russians from being bad neighbors? Atm the US isn't even asking too much from Europe in other theaters (maybe I'm wrong). While I hope beefing up military strength doesn't bring is back to ye olden days of more European land wars it seems like we can risk going a little further. IMO it's a lack of American naivete that brings this situation about. The days of being hopeful about China are over, so choices have to be made. I do get the concern tho. Maybe Europe could directly pay for a stronger America military presence! Somehow I doubt that would have gone over well ever lol.
The problem with buying American is, among many other things, ITAR. That's all fine and good as long as the USA is a reliable ally with similar goals and general alignment. But as soon as they switch sides in critical areas, a lot of European nations that have bought US defense products can no longer use them to support their allies (like Ukraine, for example). In that sense, the USA has been an incredibly stable partner for the last 80 years or so. But with them now officially aligning with the likes of Russia and North Korea, this is not a given anymore.
At that point, why bother supporting the American defense industries? We had a mutually beneficial agreement on this. The US gets to sell a lot of stuff and the Europeans don't have to do expensive research projects into certain key technologies to develop stuff locally. The Europeans save money and the American can use this extra funding to scale up their production, which in turn significantly lowers the share of development costs and, due to scale of production, the cost of each produced item individually. The reason why F-35 are somewhat "reasonably" priced is because a lot of other nations committed a lot of their capital to it and promised to purchase a large number of them, making it economical to set up big production lines.
Developing an aircraft to produce only a few dozens of them is simply not economically viable and the USA will soon find out just how expensive development can be if their allies don't join in on it.
So now, after the rest of NATO spent billions supporting the US in their F-35 program and buying them in large quantities, they cannot even be sure if they can use those planes to support other countries because of ITAR. Anything that has American components in them cannot be sold or given away without US permission.
With the exception of Croatia (1.81), Portugal (1.55), Italy (1.49), Canada (1.37), Belgium (1.30), Luxembourg (1.29), Slovenia (1.29) and Spain (1.28), all other NATO member states spent 2% or more on defence in 2024. Some of them are even outspending the US after it has reduces its spending from 3.71% to 3.38%. It's been a slow ramp up for the Europeans for sure, but it's not 2014 anymore so it would be nice if we could stop repeating outdated talking points. I know that your orange saviour will claim to be responsible for Europeans hitting their 2% targets but he has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Europe has long been able to defend itself. In a lot of system categories, it has MORE stuff than the US has, and has more manpower in their armed forces. The idea of Russia succeeding in a conventional invasion of the EU is absolutely laughable and has been for decades now. And that is not even taking the nuclear umbrella into account.
The difference between Europe and the US is that the latter cares about power projection around the globe while the former cares about the safety and stability of Europe. Europe is a regional ally similar to Japan or Australia, demanding that they change their focus to suit American goals is a bit inane.
And that is also why the whole idea of "The Europeans don't do their fair share" is so stupid. Every nation in Europe could go back down to their pre 2014 levels of spending and the US would STILL benefit from all their investment in European bases and security programs. Because the US cares about their power projection. And in the absence of regional allies, the US would have to foot those bills on their own. To project power in Europe, the US would have to base something like a million people there, with similar numbers for the western pacific.
The reason why the USA has been in this state of global hegemony is because of its allies. It does not have the personnel or the material or the money to do it on its own. Even a 0.5% contribution of the host nation would save money for the US.
This is how the entire alliance structure is set up. And those railing on how the Europeans aren't contributing their fair share are either critically uninformed about this topic, or maliciously dishonest.
Losing all your allies in order to get them to spend 0.5% more of their GDP on defence is one of the dumbest things you could possibly do.
On top of all of that, American allies, some of which have not even been NATO members at the time, have suffered roughly a third of all casualties during the United States' trip into Afghanistan. They have been there in your follies, and not it has become increasingly clear that if the roles were reversed, it is uncertain whether the US would do the same.
The only time where the current actions of the White House in regards to their NATO allies can be considered sane is if you assume that they aren't working for the American people, but for Russia.
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On March 15 2025 10:16 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 01:38 Vivax wrote:
The space programs of various billionaires are a waste of resources. Satellites I can see for their usefulness or missions for research purposes. Rocket rides for rich people are peak decadence.
enthusiasm for space programs has an inverse correlation with IQ change my mind.
Go take the average IQ of people who work at NASA, and you'll probably find you are literally wrong.
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On March 15 2025 15:05 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 05:22 Yurie wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? Horror story? No. It's not exactly how I would do things, as I think just a tad bit slower would do wonders both for doing things competently and with less public outcry (which for now is mainly on one side, but still). With the above proviso, I am OK with much of what is happening domestically. The administrative state had violated its part of the pact to be neutral, and therefore deserves to learn a lesson in ways the laws allow. Conservatives have long argued that much of the bureaucracy should be more accountable to the executive. I think it's unfortunate the power of the presidency continues to grow, but no party wants to undo it. I think compared to Biden's...testing of limits Trump is tame (Biden had the lawless eviction moratorium, student loan bailout attempt, and a dereliction of duty at the border, for example). That being said, I disagree with much of it, as i always have. Tariffs and ignoring the debt, for example. I agree with trying to heavily turn our defense policy towards Asia and the Pacific, something that Obama really started. As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I personally don't care if you do a structured withdrawal of bases and other cost drivers in Europe. The real problem is that we aren't even sure you respect alliances and good relations any longer. Basically, it is no longer certain you are an ally that we should support when you start your next inevitable war since we aren't certain you would support us if a war is forced on us. This also means it is a big risk to buy US military equipment since we aren't certain about long term support and updates. Basically breaking down the military specialization that has been going on to reduce duplicate programs. The next F35 program will not be bought into by Europe as things are trending. Making it cost 3-4x as much for the US. I personally think it would have been a great idea to let Italy make small naval ships. US doing carriers and selling to allies. Swedes making short distance and shallow water subs. Basically increasing volume for each program. But any cooperation like that assumes good and stable long term relations, else it is an unacceptable risk. Right now the US is trending towards where this type of cooperation isn't something another nation will accept in a new military product. Edit on the relations topic. Consider your best friend for the last 20 years is also your room mate. Due to changing priorities and economics they decide they have to move out. When doing this they start befriending your neighbor that scrapes your car when she thinks nobody is looking. They also are unclear on when they moving so you can't start finding somebody else to share the rent, they instead claim they will undercut you at work to take your position. This is basically how I see the US acting towards the EU recently. Like I said the other day I really don't think the US will have any objection to selling things if Europeans want to buy them lol. Maybe there is worry about support for those weapons? I don't know, you can't just freeze everything in amber because change is uncomfortable. Again, America has a different priority and think it's understandable. So I get the concern, about "relations" in general but that can't be a reason to keep doing what we're doing. What is the best argument for not having Europe do more? Maybe it's... Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 07:12 BlackJack wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I saw an internet comment from a german that said "Just to be clear, you want us to build the strongest army in Europe capable of marching east through Poland? We don't want any misunderstandings." It's great if Europe contributes more to our collective defense but it's terrible if we have an every-man-for-himself arms race across the globe because our allies can no longer rely on us. Perhaps you can't have the former without the latter considering how long its been with Europe failing to meet NATO benchmarks. I also agree wholeheartedly that it's often the same people that would have mocked American hegemony and military spending a decade ago that are now complaining they can no longer rely on the US. I think we had enjoyed an era of relative peace for so long that they naively assumed we were beyond the era of large countries invading one another on a global scale. Well I think we're a long way from that, I'm not sure it would take WWII rearmament to at least keep the Russians from being bad neighbors? Atm the US isn't even asking too much from Europe in other theaters (maybe I'm wrong). While I hope beefing up military strength doesn't bring is back to ye olden days of more European land wars it seems like we can risk going a little further. IMO it's a lack of American naivete that brings this situation about. The days of being hopeful about China are over, so choices have to be made. I do get the concern tho. Maybe Europe could directly pay for a stronger America military presence! Somehow I doubt that would have gone over well ever lol.
Trump demanding that Europe spend more on defense wasn't motivated by his concern about Europe's readiness to defend itself. It was motivated by greed. "Spending more on defense" was a euphemism for buying more American equipment. That has backfired. With the US being openly hostile to its allies and coddling Europe's greatest enemy, nobody trusts that your country will help us in case of a Russian attack. You're delusional if you think Europe would pay for stronger American military presence. In the next 10-15 years we won't be buying any American equipment and there won't be any American military presence in Europe to speak of.
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Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On March 15 2025 16:25 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 15:05 Introvert wrote:On March 15 2025 05:22 Yurie wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? Horror story? No. It's not exactly how I would do things, as I think just a tad bit slower would do wonders both for doing things competently and with less public outcry (which for now is mainly on one side, but still). With the above proviso, I am OK with much of what is happening domestically. The administrative state had violated its part of the pact to be neutral, and therefore deserves to learn a lesson in ways the laws allow. Conservatives have long argued that much of the bureaucracy should be more accountable to the executive. I think it's unfortunate the power of the presidency continues to grow, but no party wants to undo it. I think compared to Biden's...testing of limits Trump is tame (Biden had the lawless eviction moratorium, student loan bailout attempt, and a dereliction of duty at the border, for example). That being said, I disagree with much of it, as i always have. Tariffs and ignoring the debt, for example. I agree with trying to heavily turn our defense policy towards Asia and the Pacific, something that Obama really started. As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I personally don't care if you do a structured withdrawal of bases and other cost drivers in Europe. The real problem is that we aren't even sure you respect alliances and good relations any longer. Basically, it is no longer certain you are an ally that we should support when you start your next inevitable war since we aren't certain you would support us if a war is forced on us. This also means it is a big risk to buy US military equipment since we aren't certain about long term support and updates. Basically breaking down the military specialization that has been going on to reduce duplicate programs. The next F35 program will not be bought into by Europe as things are trending. Making it cost 3-4x as much for the US. I personally think it would have been a great idea to let Italy make small naval ships. US doing carriers and selling to allies. Swedes making short distance and shallow water subs. Basically increasing volume for each program. But any cooperation like that assumes good and stable long term relations, else it is an unacceptable risk. Right now the US is trending towards where this type of cooperation isn't something another nation will accept in a new military product. Edit on the relations topic. Consider your best friend for the last 20 years is also your room mate. Due to changing priorities and economics they decide they have to move out. When doing this they start befriending your neighbor that scrapes your car when she thinks nobody is looking. They also are unclear on when they moving so you can't start finding somebody else to share the rent, they instead claim they will undercut you at work to take your position. This is basically how I see the US acting towards the EU recently. Like I said the other day I really don't think the US will have any objection to selling things if Europeans want to buy them lol. Maybe there is worry about support for those weapons? I don't know, you can't just freeze everything in amber because change is uncomfortable. Again, America has a different priority and think it's understandable. So I get the concern, about "relations" in general but that can't be a reason to keep doing what we're doing. What is the best argument for not having Europe do more? Maybe it's... As I have stated multiple times. I am ok, not happy but ok with the US pulling out of Europe. They are still our friend and ally in that scenario. Nato security guarantees both ways is still there so we don't need more nukes in Europe at least. In a long war the US would slowly amble its fleet and army over to support but they are not there for the start. All ok. The problem is that the way it is being done craters trust. A security alliance is built on the trust that members will act if it is needed. As the US acts now the assumption has to be that when there is a Republican president that isn't a hawk they will not honor alliances. That is where the method and soft factors such as relations come into it. If there is no trust we have to assume the US is an opponent every 4 years and thus make no long term agreements. Which means any large investment has to be scrapped and holes in EU legislation favoring the US should probably be closed.
@Nezgar, well said too btw
Indeedy.
If one were to do a thought experiment of sorts, alter a bunch of articles to scrub out mention of NATO, and show it to an alien or whatever. I imagine its assessment of Ukraine would be something like it being a dispute between 2 states, with Europe interceding on one side, and the US serving as some kind of mediator between all parties, for its own reasons.
I don’t think that read would be particularly inaccurate from Mr/Ms Alien. Look at how frequently European leaders get circumvented or blindsided.
And for fuck’s sake Trump’s still banging on about Greenland, even to NATO’s Secretary General. I too think Rutte should have slapped that down, diplomatically, but I can see the wisdom of indulgence here. Then atop of that you’ve got this ridiculous tariff war that’s being started as well.
As I said in a previous post, I don’t think it’s really about things like Europe paying its way more. It’s undermining past alliances and institutions and attempting to just reset them. Not to hostility, but to everyone starting on neutral and subsequent interactions will be wholly transactional.
It’s 100% plausible IMO. Otherwise Trump could have framed us Euros increasing defence spend as a win and taken credit for it. ‘They weren’t paying, it’s true it’s true. But I got them to pay, I’m good at making deals, I said…’ while invoking the historic examples of the alliance working together and whatnot.
I think there’s a whole load of alternatives that Europeans would be roughly OK with, although with varying levels of reticence. This chosen path in particular is, however, not one of the palatable ones.
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Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On March 15 2025 09:01 Hat Trick of Today wrote:
Yeah no the people who had problems with American hegemony and military spending are being vindicated since it confirms their claim that America isn’t really a shining beacon of light in the world and is an Empire with an aggressive expansionist foreign policy.
Bingo. American power is great, if it’s in the capacity of being ‘The Leader of the Free World’. Quasi-myth though that may be.
What past leadership, and indeed some of the populace understood, even subconsciously is that you can be both. You can sell idealism, take that leadership role and become so indispensable that you also have your Empire at the same time. And one that requires less watering than your more traditional style Empire.
The thing is, one doesn’t have to consider this a good thing to make the observation. US hegemony = bad can happily coexist with ‘why the fuck are the US pissing away all their soft power?’, for example.
What the current MAGA clowns don’t seem to realise is part of what made America great (in power) in the first place. It fought for certain values, and was perceived as an aspirational benchmark for chunks of the globe. As with many such phenomena, big chunks were myth, but a myth has power if it’s sufficiently believed.
Or to put it another way, if you gradually shred that myth, alliances and reforge foreign relations into a domain of transactional, zero sum power, what happens if say, China starts matching you in power?
If this were SC2, the meta has suited the US for decades and decades, and they’re on Reddit every day petitioning Blizzard to nerf their style into the ground, erroneously thinking it would be a buff
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On March 15 2025 19:11 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2025 15:05 Introvert wrote:On March 15 2025 05:22 Yurie wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? Horror story? No. It's not exactly how I would do things, as I think just a tad bit slower would do wonders both for doing things competently and with less public outcry (which for now is mainly on one side, but still). With the above proviso, I am OK with much of what is happening domestically. The administrative state had violated its part of the pact to be neutral, and therefore deserves to learn a lesson in ways the laws allow. Conservatives have long argued that much of the bureaucracy should be more accountable to the executive. I think it's unfortunate the power of the presidency continues to grow, but no party wants to undo it. I think compared to Biden's...testing of limits Trump is tame (Biden had the lawless eviction moratorium, student loan bailout attempt, and a dereliction of duty at the border, for example). That being said, I disagree with much of it, as i always have. Tariffs and ignoring the debt, for example. I agree with trying to heavily turn our defense policy towards Asia and the Pacific, something that Obama really started. As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I personally don't care if you do a structured withdrawal of bases and other cost drivers in Europe. The real problem is that we aren't even sure you respect alliances and good relations any longer. Basically, it is no longer certain you are an ally that we should support when you start your next inevitable war since we aren't certain you would support us if a war is forced on us. This also means it is a big risk to buy US military equipment since we aren't certain about long term support and updates. Basically breaking down the military specialization that has been going on to reduce duplicate programs. The next F35 program will not be bought into by Europe as things are trending. Making it cost 3-4x as much for the US. I personally think it would have been a great idea to let Italy make small naval ships. US doing carriers and selling to allies. Swedes making short distance and shallow water subs. Basically increasing volume for each program. But any cooperation like that assumes good and stable long term relations, else it is an unacceptable risk. Right now the US is trending towards where this type of cooperation isn't something another nation will accept in a new military product. Edit on the relations topic. Consider your best friend for the last 20 years is also your room mate. Due to changing priorities and economics they decide they have to move out. When doing this they start befriending your neighbor that scrapes your car when she thinks nobody is looking. They also are unclear on when they moving so you can't start finding somebody else to share the rent, they instead claim they will undercut you at work to take your position. This is basically how I see the US acting towards the EU recently. Like I said the other day I really don't think the US will have any objection to selling things if Europeans want to buy them lol. Maybe there is worry about support for those weapons? I don't know, you can't just freeze everything in amber because change is uncomfortable. Again, America has a different priority and think it's understandable. So I get the concern, about "relations" in general but that can't be a reason to keep doing what we're doing. What is the best argument for not having Europe do more? Maybe it's... On March 15 2025 07:12 BlackJack wrote:On March 15 2025 03:39 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 23:48 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 14 2025 22:09 Introvert wrote:On March 14 2025 17:57 EnDeR_ wrote:They just don't want to be the party that caused the first proper government shutdown and set the precedent. They're still playing by the old rules where they still expect the other side of the aisle to stick to conventions. I think KwarK's post a couple of pages back hits it straight on the nail when he said that the democratic party just hasn't caught up with what's happening. Full quote here: On March 07 2025 05:14 KwarK wrote:
It's part of the broader Trump societal sickness. The cultural taboos have been so utterly destroyed that the social contract has been discredited.
It doesn't make sense to engage in non violent protest or performative resistance anymore but the Democrats haven't caught up yet. The Democrats represent the older consensus where you might disagree with your neighbour on politics but you could still respect each other, you could still be friends. You'd get a turn in power and they'd get a turn in power but you'd be arguing about tax rates or whatever.
Trump destroyed it. It's why we see such support for finding people like Luigi not guilty. Everyone, even those on the right, know that Trump committed his crimes. He's on tape confessing. But he appointed highly partisan judges and those highly partisan judges killed the cases. When that happens the result isn't just that he gets away with criminality, the entire idea of equality under the law is broken. The entire idea that the justice system is nonpartisan and that laws are something that we all agree upon is broken. Society relies upon people being willing to say that "I don't personally agree with X but it's the agreed upon result of a system I believe in and therefore I will accept it". So why not find Luigi not guilty, laws don't matter, justice isn't real. Why not vandalize shit belonging to Trump supporters. Why not try to remove Trump from office, it's certainly worth a shot.
Democrats are a legacy of the before times. They believe it's possible to go back. It's not. They're going to say shit like "obviously it's wrong to shoot Nazis, we've all got to get along" or "let's wait for a proper internal police inquiry into why they shot another unarmed man in the back". That post was overwrought at best. What's happening here is very simple. Dems have painted themselves into a corner on government shutdowns generally, always giving horror stories about what would happen. They were betting that the GOP House wouldn't be able to get a bill through so they could talk tough. But they miscalculated and now have to sheepishly take the loss. One house jamming the other is not unusual. However I am amused reading all the people disappointed. I remember some years ago when I was either warned or maybe even temp banned for saying shutdowns happen regularly and that most federal workers should probably have a plan. This was considered a very mean thing to say! For those same people to now lament the lack of Democratic spin is good for a laugh at least. This is part of the danger of overhyping things though. When everyone is going around with their hair on fire about Trump again you can twist yourself into knots. Dems being against a "clean" CR is a sign of this. Normally roles are reversed. Is your assessment then that we are not living through a bit of a horror story? Maybe I'm looking at all of this with European eyes; things look pretty grim now that the US is no longer considered a good ally around the world. Does the fact that now Europe is going to spend so much money arming themselves give you any pause? It is only a matter of months that new nuclear weapons programmes will come online, in my opinion. In your view, is the Trump presidency delivering on the things you wanted (and what were those things?)? As for our allies, I would direct you to the speech given by Robert Gates in 2011 that i posted recently (The last half or so specifically). What's happening in Europe was a long time coming. As an American do I wish we could be everywhere at once? I suppose it's a nice thought. But honestly at this point Europe should be more than capable of defending itself. Unless you think they are risk of going to war amongst themselves again. I leave thst to people who know better. But what's happening now is just one of the several ways America and the world could have come around to reality. America can't do everything. For those lamenting the loss of American influence and prestige (often the same people who would have mocked the very idea a decade ago) I would say that it's far more dangerous for American power and world stability for this country to try to do more than it is able. I saw an internet comment from a german that said "Just to be clear, you want us to build the strongest army in Europe capable of marching east through Poland? We don't want any misunderstandings." It's great if Europe contributes more to our collective defense but it's terrible if we have an every-man-for-himself arms race across the globe because our allies can no longer rely on us. Perhaps you can't have the former without the latter considering how long its been with Europe failing to meet NATO benchmarks. I also agree wholeheartedly that it's often the same people that would have mocked American hegemony and military spending a decade ago that are now complaining they can no longer rely on the US. I think we had enjoyed an era of relative peace for so long that they naively assumed we were beyond the era of large countries invading one another on a global scale. Well I think we're a long way from that, I'm not sure it would take WWII rearmament to at least keep the Russians from being bad neighbors? Atm the US isn't even asking too much from Europe in other theaters (maybe I'm wrong). While I hope beefing up military strength doesn't bring is back to ye olden days of more European land wars it seems like we can risk going a little further. IMO it's a lack of American naivete that brings this situation about. The days of being hopeful about China are over, so choices have to be made. I do get the concern tho. Maybe Europe could directly pay for a stronger America military presence! Somehow I doubt that would have gone over well ever lol. Trump demanding that Europe spend more on defense wasn't motivated by his concern about Europe's readiness to defend itself. It was motivated by greed. "Spending more on defense" was a euphemism for buying more American equipment. That has backfired. With the US being openly hostile to its allies and coddling Europe's greatest enemy, nobody trusts that your country will help us in case of a Russian attack. You're delusional if you think Europe would pay for stronger American military presence. In the next 10-15 years we won't be buying any American equipment and there won't be any American military presence in Europe to speak of.
Your subscription to the missile defense system has expired, please insert nearest resource to continue.
Didn‘t something like that just happen in Ukraine ?
Idk I think he wants us to become part of the Russian+Chinese sphere.
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On March 15 2025 12:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:So Trump's ultimate goal is to eliminate income tax and get the revenue from income tax elsewhere. The proposed US Government Tariffs act similarly to Canada's GST. We have a consumer purchasing a consumer product paying the tax. I think Trump's vision for how a tax system should work is fucking amazing. You have the option of cranking up the tax higher for BS frivolous things. Show nested quote +On February 17 2022 01:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
The GST was a brilliant measure.
I'd like to see the GST increased and income tax lowered or ended. I think productive work is virtuous whereas consumption is meaningless. Anyone can consume. I liken purchasing a Porsche that can reach 100 KM/H in 4 seconds to alcohol purchases or cigarettes purchases. These all should have "sin taxes". I'm all for taxing the hell out of sugar filled soda pop as well.
I think if consumption based taxes and "sin taxes" are jacked way up then Canada can eliminate all income taxes for anyone making less than 30K.
I want to see a Canada where every healthy poor person has a legit shot at becoming upper middle class. I am all for massive tariffs on alcohol. Trump is talking about a 200% on some alcohol? Great! I'd like to see tariffs on sugar based soda pops.. cigarettes ... cigars.. you name it. Giant Tariffs on $350,000 Porsches? GREAT! Upper middle class people and above invent stupid ways to spend money on frivolous items. TAX THE FUCK OUT OF IT.I'll repeat a comment I've been making for 20 years.... Canada should eliminate income tax for those making under $75K and replace that lost income with an increase in GST and and special "Hyper GST" on cigars, sugar based soda pops, and elite imported luxury sports cars.... etc etc etc. When Canada first introduced the GST ... that is where it was going. Now, its just another tax. Regarding the USA, I do not know if Trump will be able to eliminate income tax for those making under 150K. However, I hope he can pull it off. At least, he is on the right track and has a vision/mindset congruent with a proper system of taxation. Structuring the tax system in these ways offers more opportunity to the working poor and lower middle classes who have clean living habits.
If you can fund the whole government with tariffs, duties, sales tax, completely, that's one thing. Then the ERS has merit. But if you have any income tax at all, a prerequisite is a strong prosperous middle class where most people are stratified, and they participate both politically and have a stake in funding the government. Unless you were to tie enfranchisement directly to taxation, which the US wouldn't do, income/wealth tax being either nothing or widespread are the two choices. Otherwise you get South Africa style pre-collapse revolutionary expropriation where a majority depends on a minority. That's not sustainable when you have a setup where the majority have overwhelming votes to spend a small group's money.
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so, in the 1970s when American car makers were producing "lemon" after "lemon" did Donald Trump blame Canadian tariffs for the cars not selling? When the UAW went haywire with idiotic strike tactics and crazy demands was that the fault of Canadian tariffs? When the CAW outmaneuvred the UWA and nailed more and more deals and Michigan jobs moved 90 minutes north east was this caused by Canadian tariffs? like what?
Long before the 1988 Canada//USA free trade agreement (FTA) was the "Auto Pact" of 1965. An "American Made Car" crossed back and forth over the northern border 5+ times. This still happens today. It has been going on for over 70 years.
The fact Trump was close to implementing 25% across the board tariffs with Canada without considering the Auto Industry is pretty scarey.
The aphorism "Bull In A China Shop" doesn't do Trump's behaviour justice.
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You can't fund a government with tariffs.
Tariffs are a tool to promote internal industry, except when you keep pulling them like Trump does because then there is no long term vision to power investments.
So if you try to run a budget on tariffs you incentivise companies to produce domestically and not pay tariffs, completely undercutting your budget.
It also would cause big issues with budget predictions. income taxes are very predictable. People generally make the same year over year over year. There are not wild swings you can't predict while with tariffs your now at the whim of foreign companies deciding if you actually get to earn money.
If you budget for receiving 100 billion in egg tariffs and companies in Turkey decide to sell to Europe instead of the US because of bird flu epidemic there you have a gaping hole in your budget.
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One can also imagine that tariffs eat into the margins really quickly and there's no difference between 50% and 5000% tariff for most if not all goods. So basically all that achieves is those products won't be sold to the US market.
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Further more stock prices is somewhat ties to the perceived future profits, and if any us company essentially can only sell to the US market rather than the international market... Only means a drop in price, and who in the us isn't vested in some way in the stock market.
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The methods used to boycott Tesla and protest Musk are interesting as they seem quite widely accepted and supported while being clearly disruptive and causing property damage to private individuals. If these tactics were used by climate activists, etc., they sure would have been publicly disparaged. It is more likely that people are making exceptions for protesting Musk than changing their view of what constitutes an acceptable protest.
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Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On March 15 2025 06:21 Husyelt wrote:schumer you pig f*ck just voted against your own leverage and power. co equal branches of gov is woke now. www.wsj.com
I’m genuinely unsure on how I feel about playing the shutdown card in the current epoch, for the record. Anyway
However, having read a bunch of different perspectives on this, one bit of commonality does somewhat stick out, which is that Schumer kinda blindsided folks here.
It’s one thing to crack the whip, it’s quite another to pull the rug out late doors.
If you’re not gonna do it, let it be known, even if it’s just internally. Instead you end up with a bunch of Dems laying their cards on the table and just undermine that at the last.
Baffling politics really
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EPT
