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On February 14 2025 21:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
They discussion with GH has been going on for at least 15 years. He keeps saying the same stuff. People keep answering the same stuff. The same stuff leads to the same impass. Rince and repeat.
To me the problem is that at the foundation of this discussion, there is an unrecognized fact, which is that the political offer in the US reflects the American people, the American mentalities and the American culture. And that’s harder to change than organizing a general strike.
Just as one example. Billionaire oligarchs don’t have to worry about socialism in the US, there is no room for socialism in a country where people are absolutely obsessed with money and see it as a universal marker for success. And so on and so forth.
Not quite, I was a Democrat and proud Obama supporter to start. I personally fought and won over my precinct away from Clinton and toward Obama. After years of that, I plead with people that Bernie was the last chance for the Democrat party. Only after Democrats deliberately shunned Bernie and intentionally uplifted Trump as a political strategy that I completely abandoned them and recognized them as the irrefutable opposition to progress they are.
You're not wrong about the general population (other than the suggestion that this is unrecognized), which is why political education is a critical component of any socialist plan for getting the US population on track for a better future.
Forget Republicans, Forget diehard Clinton/Biden over Bernie Democrats, look at how oppositional these ostensible "allies" are to civics 101 democratic progress.
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On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 15:38 KwarK wrote:
@GH
So what is your primary plan now that your red line has been crossed? Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look.
You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum.
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United States42786 Posts
On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 15:38 KwarK wrote:
@GH
So what is your primary plan now that your red line has been crossed? Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum.
Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes.
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On February 14 2025 18:50 KT_Elwood wrote:
@oBlade
I call bullshit. Musk is approaching government like all his business promotion. But in his businesses he heavily relies on engineers making it all work while he is only force them into taking huge risks and himself always overpromising.
Every leader uses subordinates. I am a US citizen and taxpayer. I do not care about overpromising. I care about results. If someone says they can get rid of $2 trillion in waste and they get rid of $1 trillion in waste, I'm more satisfied than if someone said they could get rid of $0 in waste and added $1 trillion in waste.
On February 14 2025 18:50 KT_Elwood wrote:
Take off the shelf components to build cars and rockets..mostly burning money anyway.
Oh FSD isn't there, Teslas kill people, the human like robot is either a human in a costume, remote controlled by a human... or total crap, and Twitter lost 80% of it's value and the Starship doesn't land. Only thing that works is a downscaled version of the Spaceshuttle cockpit and re-usable booster rockets.
The Space Shuttle was an upscaled version of the Space Shuttle cockpit. It added wings which don't work in space and wasted tens of billions of dollars. It and its booster rockets were not even reusable, but refurbishable.
Off the shelf components is SLS. Literal SSMEs and SRBs.
On February 14 2025 18:50 KT_Elwood wrote:
The regulations over regulations over regulations have all grown to make some stakeholder in this happy and to satisfy some other regulation elsewhere. Sure they look inefficient.. and maybe they are.. but they aren't a result of a shitty intentional design.. they are a result of year and years of legislation.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
On February 14 2025 18:50 KT_Elwood wrote:
Musk isn't even bringing experts into this.
What is an "expert" in tea leaf reading? What is an "expert" in Tarot? What is an "expert" in homeopathy? An "expert" in government would be someone who's an expert at spending more money than they have, even more money than they need, to achieve less than they could, so they have security in being able to stay safe in the lane of that process. The government urgently needs to be debunked.
On February 14 2025 18:41 Uldridge wrote:
I legitimately believe Trump has no more awareness or insight other than the fact that he's been high society all his life and therefor knows many influential people and has leverage due to him being high society by default.
I'd give you the benefit of the doubt if the guy actually talked in depth details about something other then: "this thing, it's terrible you know, we're going to get rid of it and replace it with something terrific." It's nonsense car salesman bullshit.
Let's ask micronesia (I think, or was it Falling?), then shall we? I think he literally works for the government, which makes him part of the government. So...
@micronesia (or Falling): do people in government really have no idea what they're doing and is it just all a giant Rube Goldberg machine?
I don't personally believe you spend that much time listening to the president that you would be able to judge. But as I said before, every leader uses subordinates. You also don't expect Napoleon to tell every single soldier what square foot of ground to stand on. If that were the case, you'd rightly flip the script and go hey, he's micromanaging so it's bad.
The truth is the US population has been dissatisfied with their government for over 30 years. For base reasons. Talk to anyone who isn't a partisan during election season, or anyone who is or isn't a partisan outside of election season, it's one of the underpinnings of American culture. Talk to anyone who has been to a post office. Talk to KwarK having the DMV translate his license from English to English. Congress's approval rating over 30 years is probably a black hole. The reason people say the government sucks is not that they want it to. It's not that they enjoy it. It's that they have seen it. It's that they have interacted with it. It's the reason every condescending assumption that for example the US should "just switch to socialized medicine" falls on deaf ears. People know what taxes they pay. And they can see what they get for what they pay. They know paying more is not the answer for how to get better things from their government. It is the reason Ross Perot existed and spoiled 92 in Clinton's favor. It is the reason for only the second nonconsecutive presidential terms in US history. And it is the reason for DOGE and it's the reason Rubio nuked USAID and it's a once in a generation opportunity to start to un-fuck the federal government (and maybe by splash damage, state and municipal governments).
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On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 15:38 KwarK wrote:
@GH
So what is your primary plan now that your red line has been crossed? Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum. Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes.
What real, current day, effective action to stop Trump/Nazis are you doing, Kwark? Not jugding neither side, just curious.
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On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 15:38 KwarK wrote:
@GH
So what is your primary plan now that your red line has been crossed? Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum. Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes.
This is part of what I mean by delusional and ahistorical.
50 years of voting for Democrats with several majorities got people the grand prize of healthcare legislation that Republicans rejected as too right wing 50 years ago. We know that objectively isn't "real resistance". Meanwhile basically all significant progress in this country has come from direct actions like strikes, protests, and people generally demanding it, even against threats of death. Not from falling in line to vote for Democrats without making any demands of them.
Like I said though, if you have an alternative "actual solution" or "real resistance" plan, I'm listening. Afaict though, your plan is to flee or pick up a baton (arguably you already have) and join the fascists.
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United States42786 Posts
On February 14 2025 22:55 PoulsenB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 15:38 KwarK wrote:
@GH
So what is your primary plan now that your red line has been crossed? Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum. Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes. What real, current day, effective action to stop Trump/Nazis are you doing, Kwark? Not jugding neither side, just curious.
Take a second to consider your question there. You want to know what real thing I’m already doing to stop something which is observably steaming on ahead. There is no possible answer to that question.
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United States42786 Posts
On February 14 2025 23:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 15:38 KwarK wrote:
@GH
So what is your primary plan now that your red line has been crossed? Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum. Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes. This is part of what I mean by delusional and ahistorical. 50 years of voting for Democrats with several majorities got people the grand prize of healthcare legislation that Republicans rejected as too right wing 50 years ago. We know that objectively isn't "real resistance". Meanwhile basically all significant progress in this country has come from direct actions like strikes, protests, and people generally demanding it, even against threats of death. Not from falling in line to vote for Democrats without making any demands of them. Like I said though, if you have an alternative "actual solution" or "real resistance" plan, I'm listening. Afaict though, your plan is to flee or pick up a baton and join the fascists.
All the significant progress that led us to the current intolerable situation? That progress? That’s your historical precedent?
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GH if you wanted to make progress why not vote for Dems then strike? At least then youd be dealing with a receptive and not fascist government. Its like you want to play on hard mode.
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On February 14 2025 23:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 23:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum. Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes. This is part of what I mean by delusional and ahistorical. 50 years of voting for Democrats with several majorities got people the grand prize of healthcare legislation that Republicans rejected as too right wing 50 years ago. We know that objectively isn't "real resistance". Meanwhile basically all significant progress in this country has come from direct actions like strikes, protests, and people generally demanding it, even against threats of death. Not from falling in line to vote for Democrats without making any demands of them. Like I said though, if you have an alternative "actual solution" or "real resistance" plan, I'm listening. Afaict though, your plan is to flee or pick up a baton and join the fascists. All the significant progress that led us to the current intolerable situation? That progress? That’s your historical precedent? So that's a no to you having an alternative besides running to save your own skin or, as you're doing now, picking up a baton to ensure the rest of us can't save ours? Cool.
EDIT: On February 14 2025 23:06 Sadist wrote:GH if you wanted to make progress why not vote for Dems then strike? + Show Spoiler + At least then youd be dealing with a receptive and not fascist government. Its like you want to play on hard mode.
One reason would be that my vote would not have even been counted before the election was called, while casting it for Dems would be making me complicit in genocide. Still voting for Dems despite that is heinously sadistic imo
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On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 15:38 KwarK wrote:
@GH
So what is your primary plan now that your red line has been crossed? Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem.
Its actually very cool to hear that you have an actual plan (or are part of an actual plan) to do some real action. Quick questions.
1. 10m is a lot of people, how is this being organized? Is there a webpage or something that where people can show support or find out more information?
2. What is the time frame? When can we expect action?
3. Striking is really hard on the people with the least as they are barely getting by with what they are getting now. Do you (or your org) have a fund or something set up to get people by while striking? Do you have a link set up for donations?
4. 10m is a big number but is it significant? Like is there a reasoning behind that number? Could you do it with say 5 or even 1? Why is 10m critical mass?
5. Where are you getting people and how are you letting the know about it? I would think unions would be the goto a few years ago but given as many supported Trump that seems hard.
6. What is the ask? And what is the main message that people can rally around?
Thanks, I didn't think you were for real, be interested to see how this action is going to unfold.
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GH if Trump is successful in kicking palestinians out of Gaza do you think your protest vote was successful?
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On February 14 2025 22:55 PoulsenB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 15:38 KwarK wrote:
@GH
So what is your primary plan now that your red line has been crossed? Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum. Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes. What real, current day, effective action to stop Trump/Nazis are you doing, Kwark? Not jugding neither side, just curious. Kwark's point isn't that he is doing more or that he is better, its that GH has been complaining for what feel like a decade that everyone in this thread is completely and utterly complicit in the combined suffering of humanity while GH himself has done the exact same to halt it as everyone else here.
nothing.
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United States42786 Posts
On February 14 2025 23:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 23:05 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 23:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum. Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes. This is part of what I mean by delusional and ahistorical. 50 years of voting for Democrats with several majorities got people the grand prize of healthcare legislation that Republicans rejected as too right wing 50 years ago. We know that objectively isn't "real resistance". Meanwhile basically all significant progress in this country has come from direct actions like strikes, protests, and people generally demanding it, even against threats of death. Not from falling in line to vote for Democrats without making any demands of them. Like I said though, if you have an alternative "actual solution" or "real resistance" plan, I'm listening. Afaict though, your plan is to flee or pick up a baton and join the fascists. All the significant progress that led us to the current intolerable situation? That progress? That’s your historical precedent? So that's a no to you having an alternative besides running to save your own skin or, as you're doing now, picking up a baton to ensure the rest of us can't save ours? Cool.
Actually I think you’ll find that you’re the counter revolutionary wielding the baton against the workers and I am the noble revolutionary.
You can’t even state the exact amount of innocent Gazan blood that could be spilled before an orange line is crossed. That makes you complicit.
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On February 14 2025 23:22 Sadist wrote:
GH if Trump is successful in kicking palestinians out of Gaza do you think your protest vote was successful?
This point is interesting to me. Its basically a trolley problem.
The only people who didn't vote for death, destruction and chaos in Gaza are the people who didn't vote for either party.
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United States42786 Posts
On February 14 2025 23:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 22:55 PoulsenB wrote:On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:56 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:35 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 21:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 21:17 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 20:48 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] Organize with my comrades. A specific (but non-comprehensive) example of something we're organizing toward would be a general strike. If Democrat supporters (at least the ones that ostensibly want better) can keep demanding that and more be part of Democrats plan, they can at least recognize Democrats as a party/institution that are actually oppositional to even their modestly progressive goals. Democrats are already pissed off...at their voters for wanting them to fight against Trump/fascism. And you believe your plan of getting Americans to engage in a general strike is more likely to work than the plan of voting Trump out? I believe getting ~10,000,000 people to engage in a general strike is necessary. Voting Trump out isn't even maybe an option until years from now anyway. It's like planning to order buckets to throw water out the window to deal with the several feet of standing water in the house from regional flooding. As a plan it fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of the problem. So you believe that Trump is both a fascist and also that you should allow him to stay in power + Show Spoiler +, day after day, week after week, enacting his fascist policies and genociding the people of Palestine while you work on your strike. And then you think that once you've got 10m people to engage in a general strike, which incidentally will never happen, it'll somehow defeat fascism? Because Trump is presumably both a genocidal fascist and also at the mercy of strikes. It's just like that time when Hitler was defeated by organized German labour. I wish I had your gift for self deception, it must be so nice to believe in such things. No. I believe organizing with my comrades towards a general strike (along with plenty of other activities) is a better use of time and energy than dissuading people from doing that like a fascist would. This sounds like an excuse to hang out with your buddies. You're not serious about stopping fascism + Show Spoiler +, even your "solutions" don't actually involve stopping anything. What you're doing basically makes you a willing accomplice to everything bad that happens from here on. You knew what they were doing, you knew what they were going to do, but you choose to hang out with your friends instead. If you ever wondered what you'd do if you were in 1940 Germany then you now have your answer and it's not a great look. You're free to believe that, and I'm open to considering/trying your alternatives (is it fleeing the country?), unlike you and the libs/Dems/ilk you're representing with this tantrum. Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes. What real, current day, effective action to stop Trump/Nazis are you doing, Kwark? Not jugding neither side, just curious. Kwark's point isn't that he is doing more or that he is better, its that GH has been complaining for what feel like a decade that everyone in this thread is completely and utterly complicit in the combined suffering of humanity while GH himself has done the exact same to halt it as everyone else here. nothing.
Not the exact same, actually less than democrat voters.
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On February 14 2025 23:46 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 23:22 Sadist wrote:
GH if Trump is successful in kicking palestinians out of Gaza do you think your protest vote was successful?
This point is interesting to me. Its basically a trolley problem. The only people who didn't vote for death, destruction and chaos in Gaza are the people who didn't vote for either party.
The people who didnt vote against Trump (IE the only way to vote against trump is to vote Dem) are voting for palestinians being kicked out of Gaza.
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United States42786 Posts
On February 14 2025 23:46 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 23:22 Sadist wrote:
GH if Trump is successful in kicking palestinians out of Gaza do you think your protest vote was successful?
This point is interesting to me. Its basically a trolley problem. The only people who didn't vote for death, destruction and chaos in Gaza are the people who didn't vote for either party.
It wasn’t on the ballot. You can’t declare that people who voted voted for shit that wasn’t on the ballot. Chocolate is harvested by child slaves in west Africa. Presumably you’ve voted for a MP before and presumably none of the candidates running in your constituency pledged to end it. Defend your vote for child slavery if you dare.
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On February 14 2025 23:47 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 23:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 14 2025 23:22 Sadist wrote:
GH if Trump is successful in kicking palestinians out of Gaza do you think your protest vote was successful?
This point is interesting to me. Its basically a trolley problem. The only people who didn't vote for death, destruction and chaos in Gaza are the people who didn't vote for either party. The people who didnt vote against Trump (IE people voting Dem) are responsible for palestinians being kicked out of Gaza.
Okay so let's imagine you are a Palestinian living in the US. You had a family of 30 people living in Gaza, 29 of whom are now dead - and partially responsible for those deaths are the Democrats.
Would you vote for the people who killed your family? Would you trust them to save your one remaining family member?
Would you point the finger at that person and say that they are responsible for Palestinians getting kicked out of Gaza after they've watched their family get butchered at the hands of the people you insist they must vote for?
Its so easy to make it sound simple with one sentence. It isn't simple though.
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On February 14 2025 23:46 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 23:22 Sadist wrote:
GH if Trump is successful in kicking palestinians out of Gaza do you think your protest vote was successful?
This point is interesting to me. Its basically a trolley problem. The only people who didn't vote for death, destruction and chaos in Gaza are the people who didn't vote for either party. No, because in the trolley problem doing nothing kills more people then doing something.
Doing nothing and increasing the odds Trump wins kills more people in Gaza then choosing to vote for Democrats who won't do enough, but will not tell Netanyahu to go right ahead with the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
Not voting is accepting the worse of 2 bad options as being just as acceptable as the lesser of said options.
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EPT
