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On September 22 2023 23:11 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2023 23:03 Gorsameth wrote:On September 22 2023 22:53 JimmiC wrote:One of the few things I agree with Gaetz on MATT GAETZ pins shutdown on McCarthy: “We will have a government shutdown and it is absolutely Speaker McCarthy's fault. We cannot blame Joe Biden for not having moved our individual spending bills. We cannot blame House Democrats. We can't even blame Chuck Schumer in the Senate” really? I agree you can't blame all the other factors but McCarthy? What miracle was he supposed to perform? It took 15 tries just to agree on the guy for Speaker. No one can bring the varies fractured parts of the GOP together if they are hell bent on causing hell. Because they are not there to govern. Yeah, he made a lot of dumb concessions with idiots to become speaker and this was the obvious consequence. This is a GOP problem. Their issues with raising the debt limit would magically disappear if Trump became president. Agreed under Trump they would probably not care.
And yes McCarthy made dumb concessions. But there was no other viable Republican candidate. So the alternative to McCarthy is no speaker and no House? That's also a shutdown right there.
The only thing your then hoping for is enough Republicans finding a spine to vote in a Democratic speaker. And any plan involving Republicans finding a spine is sketchy at best.
For McCarthy to carry the blame there has to be something he could have done differently that would have avoided this. And I don't think this is up to him. It never was.
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I think Gaetz (and Boebert and MTG, etc.) are going to call out McCarthy quite a bit, whether or not McCarthy could realistically solve certain issues. They'll try to weaken the establishment / non-Trump Republican core to perhaps get primaried in the future.
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McCarthy could work with the Democrats to come up with a deal where they pass bipartisan legislation in exchange of guaranteeing his speakership but that would require a Republican to have any thought beyond "Dems bad" when they walk into the halls of Congress in the morning.
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Why are single issue spending bills nutjob?
Surely at some point even Democrats have to realize that lower spending is going to be part of how to address the perpetual deficit rather than just debt ceiling increases.
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On September 23 2023 01:04 oBlade wrote:
Why are single issue spending bills nutjob?
Surely at some point even Democrats have to realize that lower spending is going to be part of how to address the perpetual deficit rather than just debt ceiling increases.
Surely at some point even Republicans have to realize that raising taxes on the rich is going to be part of how to address the perpetual deficit rather than just debt ceiling increases.
(I'm not sure that either of our statements are necessarily true.)
Also, it's not like Republicans are necessarily fiscally conservative or promoting spending less. It also depends on where the money is being allocated (military, welfare, infrastructure, education, etc.).
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On September 23 2023 01:04 oBlade wrote:
Why are single issue spending bills nutjob?
Surely at some point even Democrats have to realize that lower spending is going to be part of how to address the perpetual deficit rather than just debt ceiling increases. I love that your trying to blame the Democrats for the Republicans failing to agree on a budget just among themselves...
Also where were the Republican concerns about the deficit when they were in charge of Congress and the Presidency?
Shockingly the deficit only matters when they are not in complete control.
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On September 23 2023 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2023 01:04 oBlade wrote:
Why are single issue spending bills nutjob?
Surely at some point even Democrats have to realize that lower spending is going to be part of how to address the perpetual deficit rather than just debt ceiling increases. I love that your trying to blame the Democrats for the Republicans failing to agree on a budget just among themselves... Also where were the Republican concerns about the deficit when they were in charge of Congress and the Presidency? Shockingly the deficit only matters when they are not in complete control.
Do you agree with single issue spending bills or not?
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On September 23 2023 01:39 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2023 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:On September 23 2023 01:04 oBlade wrote:
Why are single issue spending bills nutjob?
Surely at some point even Democrats have to realize that lower spending is going to be part of how to address the perpetual deficit rather than just debt ceiling increases. I love that your trying to blame the Democrats for the Republicans failing to agree on a budget just among themselves... Also where were the Republican concerns about the deficit when they were in charge of Congress and the Presidency? Shockingly the deficit only matters when they are not in complete control. Do you agree with single issue spending bills or not? 12 separate bills or 1 big one does it matter? Not if they are handled properly but Republicans never do.
And who called the single spending bills nutjobs?
Someone called the (some of) the Republicans nutjobs. And they objectively are.
I'm really struggling to see if your actually complaining about something legitimate and just completely failing to express yourself or if your just looking for an excuse to stir up shit.
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United States44439 Posts
On September 23 2023 01:39 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2023 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:On September 23 2023 01:04 oBlade wrote:
Why are single issue spending bills nutjob?
Surely at some point even Democrats have to realize that lower spending is going to be part of how to address the perpetual deficit rather than just debt ceiling increases. I love that your trying to blame the Democrats for the Republicans failing to agree on a budget just among themselves... Also where were the Republican concerns about the deficit when they were in charge of Congress and the Presidency? Shockingly the deficit only matters when they are not in complete control. Do you agree with single issue spending bills or not?
There are positives and negatives. The positive being that you get a clear thumbs up or thumbs down on spending. The negative being that it just doesn’t work.
Let’s say you have 50 spending bills for 50 states. On each of them you have representatives from the recipient state insisting that it’s not enough and representatives for the other 49 insisting that it’s too much and worrying that when their bill comes around they won’t get as much. Nothing would pass until you finally got drafts of all 50 bills together and had them horse trade votes to ensure that support for one states’s bill would be repaid with support for another’s. You’d also need to pass them all at the same time to ensure no backsies, you’d want to bind their vote for your bill to your vote for theirs. That gets us right back to general bills which is why they exist in the first place. The system forces compromise and so the bills are built with that in mind.
It’s not a question of whether anyone agrees with the concept, just like it isn’t with first past the post voting. It is what it is. You can’t pass single issue bills.
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On September 23 2023 01:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2023 01:39 oBlade wrote:On September 23 2023 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:On September 23 2023 01:04 oBlade wrote:
Why are single issue spending bills nutjob?
Surely at some point even Democrats have to realize that lower spending is going to be part of how to address the perpetual deficit rather than just debt ceiling increases. I love that your trying to blame the Democrats for the Republicans failing to agree on a budget just among themselves... Also where were the Republican concerns about the deficit when they were in charge of Congress and the Presidency? Shockingly the deficit only matters when they are not in complete control. Do you agree with single issue spending bills or not? 12 separate bills or 1 big one does it matter? Not if they are handled properly but Republicans never do. And who called the single spending bills nutjobs? Someone called the (some of) the Republicans nutjobs. And they objectively are. I'm really struggling to see if your actually complaining about something legitimate and just completely failing to express yourself or if your just looking for an excuse to stir up shit.
No I was just looking for a straight answer, I would never interrupt decorum and stir up shit by insulting someone who isn't a Republican.
They called the Republicans nutjobs who specifically held up the nomination for Speaker of the House for procedural (i.e. parliamentary) gains for their caucus, for example one of chief amongst which was single issue spending bills, which is now a topical issue because the debt ceiling is approaching which is why we're talking about this now. For people who follow politics the connection goes without saying.
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On September 22 2023 22:16 Simberto wrote:
Doesn't really give the impression of a well-run country.
Isn’t that the point? Republicans’ whole deal is portraying all government — but especially Democratic-led government — as useless and untrustworthy compared to business, so that people will scoff at the notion of the government regulating business or taxing business to pay for a social safety net. Creating the impression of a poorly run country isn’t an accident, it’s the goal.
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Well their whole reason for shutting it down is continuing anyway, so there goes that. Ukraine still getting what it needs because political theatrics shouldn’t be a part of it. Happy to see it.
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On September 23 2023 04:52 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2023 22:16 Simberto wrote:
Doesn't really give the impression of a well-run country. Isn’t that the point? Republicans’ whole deal is portraying all government — but especially Democratic-led government — as useless and untrustworthy compared to business, so that people will scoff at the notion of the government regulating business or taxing business to pay for a social safety net. Creating the impression of a poorly run country isn’t an accident, it’s the goal.
Fiscal Conservative speaking person here. I agree with you wholeheartedly and would like to make it clear Republicans aren’t conservative.  I need a political home.
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United States44439 Posts
If every attempt at conservatism looks like this and conservative voters keep voting for this then at what point do you admit that it’s not that they’re doing conservatism badly, it’s that your idea of what it means is wrong?
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On September 25 2023 01:35 KwarK wrote:
If every attempt at conservatism looks like this and conservative voters keep voting for this then at what point do you admit that it’s not that they’re doing conservatism badly, it’s that your idea of what it means is wrong?
Fiscal Conservative as a definition doesn't change, but what a party represents can. I don't vote for republicans so I'm not responsible for this either (or at least haven't voted for republicans that aren't truly conservative: Didn't vote for Trump or any other republican in the non-primary election for President since I turned 18). I think we need a new thread that helps support the politcal party homeless population like me.
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EPT
