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On June 21 2023 00:30 Vivax wrote:
Maybe I‘m poorly informed but how can Trumps trial be a public one in the first place if it‘s a trial about espionage and confidential information he sold ?
They don't charge people for documents that can't be released to the public. You have to defend yourself in court so you can't just say there are secret documents he released that we can't talk about.
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On June 21 2023 00:30 Vivax wrote:
Maybe I‘m poorly informed but how can Trumps trial be a public one in the first place if it‘s a trial about espionage and confidential information he sold ?
Because the contents of the confidential information is not relevant to the case. Only its designation.
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United States43866 Posts
Nah, there are actually even more secret docs that he’s not even being charged for. But a lot of it is just general conspiracy stuff. He directed his lawyers to lie to the FBI on his behalf, falsified a response to a subpoena, directed his lawyers to destroy evidence, directly lied himself, concealed evidence, and so forth and so forth.
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The point I was trying to make is that it‘s a bit sus he‘s being tried like a civilian and not like military (which I wager wouldn‘t be in public) since that‘s the branch this concerns.
Maybe cause I imagine that a minister of defense who endangers his own military should have to face it in court.
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On June 21 2023 01:21 Vivax wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that it‘s a bit sus he‘s being tried like a civilian and not like military (which I wager wouldn‘t be in public) since that‘s the branch this concerns.
Maybe cause I imagine that a minister of defense who endangers his own military should have to face it in court.
You think publicly elected heads of state should be tried in secret?
(FWIW the federal rules of both criminal and civil procedure provide adequate means of sealing confidential documents and holding non-public hearings where appropriate. Also, Trump hasn’t been charged under the military code, so holding a military trial doesn’t make any sense.)
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I've stayed out of the book discussion this go-around but at least from this conservative'ss perspective the issue of sex-Ed might be more easily understood when rolled into education generally. I.E. there are things many conservative parents don't trust teachers with, especially on sensitive issues. Here though admittedly there is a religious valance (for some parents) and I agree that sheltering kids is counterproductive. Bur that still doesn't mean I trust a random teacher to give good advice on...anything. too much of a crap shoot. But if you look at the books that were "banned" from the lower grades I don't think you have to call your opponents prudes or even fascists to think they might have a legitimate concern.
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On June 21 2023 01:31 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 01:21 Vivax wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that it‘s a bit sus he‘s being tried like a civilian and not like military (which I wager wouldn‘t be in public) since that‘s the branch this concerns.
Maybe cause I imagine that a minister of defense who endangers his own military should have to face it in court. You think publicly elected heads of state should be tried in secret? (FWIW the federal rules of both criminal and civil procedure provide adequate means of sealing confidential documents and holding non-public hearings where appropriate. Also, Trump hasn’t been charged under the military code, so holding a military trial doesn’t make any sense.)
I‘m not that familiar with US proceedings to be able to assume that.
But I recall that maybe due to the coronavirus outbreak he managed to exploit a loophole that could have allowed him to act against national security and getting away with it.
(Namely giving himself emergency powers due to it that would have given him more room to act according to his interests)
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I think the book issue is another one of the self fulfilling prophecies the right produces int he country. Higher academia and the humanities in specific have been demonized so much by the right that no one with a right wing perspective ever goes into them anymore. Then they become everything they were complaining they were becoming all those decades.
The same thing is for sex ed books. The right was demanding abstinence only education with a puritanical bend on any literature at all that now that they're sitting at the table for how to teach it they have nothing to do with the process and have nothing to contribute to how to do it "best".
Demonizing teachers has been going on for so long and has been intensifying so much recently that it will only get worse. Now that they are going to school boards and making the job worse and worse for teachers schools are going to get worse and worse as a result. When the time comes that they're finally able to abolish public schools they won't have a way to educate kids to any standard.
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On June 21 2023 04:16 Sermokala wrote:
I think the book issue is another one of the self fulfilling prophecies the right produces int he country. Higher academia and the humanities in specific have been demonized so much by the right that no one with a right wing perspective ever goes into them anymore. Then they become everything they were complaining they were becoming all those decades.
The same thing is for sex ed books. The right was demanding abstinence only education with a puritanical bend on any literature at all that now that they're sitting at the table for how to teach it they have nothing to do with the process and have nothing to contribute to how to do it "best".
Demonizing teachers has been going on for so long and has been intensifying so much recently that it will only get worse. Now that they are going to school boards and making the job worse and worse for teachers schools are going to get worse and worse as a result. When the time comes that they're finally able to abolish public schools they won't have a way to educate kids to any standard.
Which is perfect for a conservative. Rich people get to send their children to top-class private schools. Everyone else gets shitty or no education, ideally with a massive religious indoctrination bend.
Create your underclass of workers who love it, while your children are superbly successful because they are the only ones with an education.
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The most constructive way to criticize is to provide an alternative. Although it’s a lot to ask, especially of a lay person, I wonder if any of the people in this thread espousing the “school books have gone too far” point of view would like to describe what they think sex ed for 11-year-olds should look like, or point to curricula they think have merit.
So you don’t trust teachers to choose the right books to address certain delicate matters — well, what if you had a magic wand and could make things the way you wanted? What would you want taught and how?
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If you want to say you don't trust trained professionals to do their jobs, you can take that notion to its absurd conclusion and take yourself off the grid right now. We live in a society, which only gets to happen because people who are not you get really good at things you are not good at, and you have to trust them to be good at what they do. Conservatives are out there making teachers' jobs impossible because they can't handle the idea that their kids will be exposed to new ideas.
If the crap shoot is whether that teacher agrees with you politically, then it starts to make more sense to me.
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On June 21 2023 04:31 Djabanete wrote:
The most constructive way to criticize is to provide an alternative. Although it’s a lot to ask, especially of a lay person, I wonder if any of the people in this thread espousing the “school books have gone too far” point of view would like to describe what they think sex ed for 11-year-olds should look like, or point to curricula they think have merit.
So you don’t trust teachers to choose the right books to address certain delicate matters — well, what if you had a magic wand and could make things the way you wanted? What would you want taught and how?
I had sex Ed in Florida public schools every year from ages 10 to 17. Shouldn’t you be the one to point out what that curricula was lacking before putting sexually explicit books in the library?
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On June 21 2023 04:31 Djabanete wrote:
The most constructive way to criticize is to provide an alternative. Although it’s a lot to ask, especially of a lay person, I wonder if any of the people in this thread espousing the “school books have gone too far” point of view would like to describe what they think sex ed for 11-year-olds should look like, or point to curricula they think have merit.
So you don’t trust teachers to choose the right books to address certain delicate matters — well, what if you had a magic wand and could make things the way you wanted? What would you want taught and how?
Its really simple:
teach only things like languages, maths, history, physics, chemistry, biology, geography and so on. (this includes arts, practical skills, PE and whatever i forgot.)
Sexual education as it seems big point of contest - parents should be presented with curriculum on lesson by lesson bases and be able to pick the lessons they want they kids to attend.
Anything controversial (eg religion) should be gone and left for parents.
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I had a longer post typed up but I'll say this. I don't view teachers as equivalent to doctors, and conservative criticism of the educational establishment is NOT new. I'm willing to bet that almost everyone has had teachers in their experience that let their own views seep into their material. Some are more honest about then others, some try to be fair, but many don't. And I hold this same mixed bag view about almost every profession politicians feel the need to bow down to. Teachers, social workers, civil servants, police, and firefighters (although for the last one I obviously have immense respect for the job itself but their unions use that respect badly IMO).
So whine all you want about the Right's new (and in my view justifiable) issues with the medical establishment or the FBI, but education has always been a political and moral battleground, and with the left now having perhaps the strongest hold it's ever had on that profession, blind trust is unwise.
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On June 21 2023 02:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 01:39 Introvert wrote:
I've stayed out of the book discussion this go-around but at least from this conservative'ss perspective the issue of sex-Ed might be more easily understood when rolled into education generally. I.E. there are things many conservative parents don't trust teachers with, especially on sensitive issues. Here though admittedly there is a religious valance (for some parents) and I agree that sheltering kids is counterproductive. Bur that still doesn't mean I trust a random teacher to give good advice on...anything. too much of a crap shoot. But if you look at the books that were "banned" from the lower grades I don't think you have to call your opponents prudes or even fascists to think they might have a legitimate concern. I think there is a huge general lack of trust in institutions as a whole by conservatives, which is a huge change from say 30 years. They do not trust law enforcement, government, teachers, doctors, or even their democracy. All which are huge societal problems. I'm not suggesting that any of these institutions are perfect, far from it. I'm also not suggesting that there are not bad actors. I also do not know how to fix it. The conservative media sphere is non stop against these always finding the most salacious story it gets the most clicks. I'm not sure how society really functions if 40% of your people do not have even a little bit of trust in the major systems.
I think Kennedy polling at around 20% among Dems, kinda shows that this is not only Conservatives which have this issue.
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On June 21 2023 07:44 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 04:31 Djabanete wrote:
The most constructive way to criticize is to provide an alternative. Although it’s a lot to ask, especially of a lay person, I wonder if any of the people in this thread espousing the “school books have gone too far” point of view would like to describe what they think sex ed for 11-year-olds should look like, or point to curricula they think have merit.
So you don’t trust teachers to choose the right books to address certain delicate matters — well, what if you had a magic wand and could make things the way you wanted? What would you want taught and how? I had sex Ed in Florida public schools every year from ages 10 to 17. Shouldn’t you be the one to point out what that curricula was lacking before putting sexually explicit books in the library?
I’m curious to know what you think would be good sex ed. Is that not something you’re willing to share? You seem to imply (but don’t actually state) that you found the sex ed you received to be satisfactory, but that doesn’t help me understand your perspective because I have literally no idea what the sex ed you received was like, seeing as how I’m not you.
@Razyda: OK, so the idea is that parents can opt their children out of anything controversial. Thanks for sharing. If you don’t mind my asking, what would constitute good sex ed in your opinion?
@Introvert: OK, so the idea is to not blindly trust teachers to do a good job teaching sex ed (or anything else). If you don’t mind my asking, what would constitute a teacher doing a good job teaching sex ed?
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If you read the article you'll see that it has more to do with changing the forex markets to be better than trying to upend global finance. The IMF is probably the biggest organization that holds up the position of dominance the dollar and the euro have over global debt.
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EPT
