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On February 03 2023 13:06 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? I think there's a lot of people who don't know what a socialist revolution would mean and therefore are instinctively against it.
I'm not sure I understand what you're conveying when you say "don't know what a socialist revolution would mean". Like they don't know the term "socialist revolution" describes a social revolution to transition us to socialism so they viscerally oppose it rather than intellectually?
The parallel that comes to mind is when people oppose allowing dihydrogen monoxide in schools or whatever.
Or do you mean something else?
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Maybe most people plain don't want socialism?
You could probably bring a majority of the people on the side of better/more public services/redistribution but a full on socialist society by (violent) revolution, despite it's track record? Good luck with selling that.
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Norway28785 Posts
You are missing dislike of the violent component of a revolution. I'm very positively inclined towards a theoretical socialist future society but I think the steps required to get there non-incrementally will almost inevitably not only inflict a lot of damage on society, but also corrupt the well-intentioned initiators of said revolution. Basically the skillset required for a successful revolution seem fairly distant from those required to govern, and the personality that takes charge of such a movement tends to also believe they're suitable for government. The revolution eating its own children if you like.
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Even if the revolution is somehow successful, what are the odds the defeated part will just sit quietly in the boat and accept the new reality? The new regime will either have to brutally surpress all opposition for a long time or run the risk of a counter revolution and parts of the population not obeying.
Usually, the surpressing tactic is chosen, at the cost of both hatred for the regime and the government caring more about staying in power than functional socialist policies.
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On February 03 2023 16:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? You are missing dislike of the violent component of a revolution. Why don't you think that falls under 3? I'm very positively inclined towards a theoretical socialist future society but I think the steps required to get there non-incrementally will almost inevitably not only inflict a lot of damage on society, but also corrupt the well-intentioned initiators of said revolution. Basically the skillset required for a successful revolution seem fairly distant from those required to govern, and the personality that takes charge of such a movement tends to also believe they're suitable for government. The revolution eating its own children if you like.
I'm unclear if that's supporting information or other objections you didn't feel were included, but if it's the latter, I believe it falls under 3 and 5. All of which essentially falls under 2 since it is the objection it attempts to justify.
On February 03 2023 17:22 Slydie wrote:
Even if the revolution is somehow successful, what are the odds the defeated part will just sit quietly in the boat and accept the new reality? The new regime will either have to brutally surpress all opposition for a long time or run the risk of a counter revolution and parts of the population not obeying.
Usually, the surpressing tactic is chosen, at the cost of both hatred for the regime and the government caring more about staying in power than functional socialist policies.
Wouldn't you say that falls under 5?
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On February 03 2023 16:33 Velr wrote:
Maybe most people plain don't want socialism?
You could probably bring a majority of the people on the side of better/more public services/redistribution but a full on socialist society by (violent) revolution, despite it's track record? Good luck with selling that.
That’s option 1
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On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those?
One that I think you are missing is that in countries where there are relatively free and fair elections a revolution is not democratic. If your ideas are popular enough you can just win at the ballot box. Requiring a revolution to implement your new society is admitting that your policies are not popular enough.
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On February 03 2023 18:44 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? One that I think you are missing is that in countries where there are relatively free and fair elections a revolution is not democratic. If your ideas are popular enough you can just win at the ballot box. Requiring a revolution to implement your new society is admitting that your policies are not popular enough.
Does that not pretty squarely fall under 2?
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On February 03 2023 19:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 18:44 RvB wrote:On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? One that I think you are missing is that in countries where there are relatively free and fair elections a revolution is not democratic. If your ideas are popular enough you can just win at the ballot box. Requiring a revolution to implement your new society is admitting that your policies are not popular enough. Does that not pretty squarely fall under 2?
No, it falls under your 1.
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Norway28785 Posts
3 and 5 cover it somewhat but with a focus on lives and livelihoods, not comfort and status. Some people losing status / a change in what grants status would be a net positive .
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On February 03 2023 19:54 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 19:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2023 18:44 RvB wrote:On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? One that I think you are missing is that in countries where there are relatively free and fair elections a revolution is not democratic. If your ideas are popular enough you can just win at the ballot box. Requiring a revolution to implement your new society is admitting that your policies are not popular enough. Does that not pretty squarely fall under 2? No, it falls under your 1. The objection itself ("revolution is not democratic") seems to me to fall under 2. Basically that US democracy is adequate to implement socialist ideas/policy worth having within US democracy's own parameters. Socialist ideas losing at the ballot box is certainly a reference to 1, but the objection itself is 2 as I read it.
On February 03 2023 20:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
3 and 5 cover it somewhat but with a focus on lives and livelihoods, not comfort and status. Some people losing status / a change in what grants status would be a net positive .
Are you comfortable saying I didn't miss any objections you're readily aware of?
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On February 03 2023 20:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 19:54 Slydie wrote:On February 03 2023 19:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2023 18:44 RvB wrote:On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? One that I think you are missing is that in countries where there are relatively free and fair elections a revolution is not democratic. If your ideas are popular enough you can just win at the ballot box. Requiring a revolution to implement your new society is admitting that your policies are not popular enough. Does that not pretty squarely fall under 2? No, it falls under your 1. The objection itself ("revolution is not democratic") seems to me to fall under 2. Basically that US democracy is adequate to implement socialist ideas/policy worth having within US democracy's own parameters. Socialist ideas losing at the ballot box is certainly a reference to 1, but the objection itself is 2 as I read it. Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 20:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
3 and 5 cover it somewhat but with a focus on lives and livelihoods, not comfort and status. Some people losing status / a change in what grants status would be a net positive . Are you comfortable saying I didn't miss any objections you're readily aware of?
If your revolutionary ideas don't win elections, then it does not have enough support=1. I don't think is fair to assume that a lot of people "really" support your agenda but don't dare to for whatever reason.
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On February 03 2023 20:55 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 20:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2023 19:54 Slydie wrote:On February 03 2023 19:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2023 18:44 RvB wrote:On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? One that I think you are missing is that in countries where there are relatively free and fair elections a revolution is not democratic. If your ideas are popular enough you can just win at the ballot box. Requiring a revolution to implement your new society is admitting that your policies are not popular enough. Does that not pretty squarely fall under 2? No, it falls under your 1. The objection itself ("revolution is not democratic") seems to me to fall under 2. Basically that US democracy is adequate to implement socialist ideas/policy worth having within US democracy's own parameters. Socialist ideas losing at the ballot box is certainly a reference to 1, but the objection itself is 2 as I read it. On February 03 2023 20:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
3 and 5 cover it somewhat but with a focus on lives and livelihoods, not comfort and status. Some people losing status / a change in what grants status would be a net positive . Are you comfortable saying I didn't miss any objections you're readily aware of? If your revolutionary ideas don't win elections, then it does not have enough support=1. I don't think is fair to assume that a lot of people "really" support your agenda but don't dare to for whatever reason. I don't see the assumption you're describing. Just so it's clear what I'm saying:
Even if we assume that everyone that votes against socialist policy conscientiously falls under 1. What I'm saying is that people whose objection to socialist revolution in the US is based on it circumventing US democracy and "that is not democratic" (which was the objection as I understood it) fall under 2. 1 and 2 aren't mutually exclusive objections/groups/beliefs fwiw though.
Regardless, we can agree the objections are covered under my list. Are there objections that you are readily aware of that aren't covered under my list?
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On February 03 2023 22:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 20:55 Slydie wrote:On February 03 2023 20:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2023 19:54 Slydie wrote:On February 03 2023 19:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2023 18:44 RvB wrote:On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? One that I think you are missing is that in countries where there are relatively free and fair elections a revolution is not democratic. If your ideas are popular enough you can just win at the ballot box. Requiring a revolution to implement your new society is admitting that your policies are not popular enough. Does that not pretty squarely fall under 2? No, it falls under your 1. The objection itself ("revolution is not democratic") seems to me to fall under 2. Basically that US democracy is adequate to implement socialist ideas/policy worth having within US democracy's own parameters. Socialist ideas losing at the ballot box is certainly a reference to 1, but the objection itself is 2 as I read it. On February 03 2023 20:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
3 and 5 cover it somewhat but with a focus on lives and livelihoods, not comfort and status. Some people losing status / a change in what grants status would be a net positive . Are you comfortable saying I didn't miss any objections you're readily aware of? If your revolutionary ideas don't win elections, then it does not have enough support=1. I don't think is fair to assume that a lot of people "really" support your agenda but don't dare to for whatever reason. I don't see the assumption you're describing. Just so it's clear what I'm saying: Even if we assume that everyone that votes against socialist policy conscientiously falls under 1. What I'm saying is that people whose objection to socialist revolution in the US is based on it circumventing US democracy and "that is not democratic" (which was the objection as I understood it) fall under 2. 1 and 2 aren't mutually exclusive objections/groups/beliefs fwiw though. Regardless, we can agree the objections are covered under my list. Are there objections that you are readily aware of that aren't covered under my list?
Maybe one from first principles? Doubt it's a very often-used one, but you could argue from first principles that any revolution is immoral. For instance, because a revolution requires the use of violence and the use of violence is immoral, even to stop greater violence on behalf of someone else. There may be other religious or ethical grounds on which people might oppose any revolution.
But I think you cover almost all objections in your points 1-5.
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United States43907 Posts
On February 03 2023 20:55 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2023 20:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2023 19:54 Slydie wrote:On February 03 2023 19:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2023 18:44 RvB wrote:On February 03 2023 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
I was going to leave it alone (and still largely am) but the revolution discussion made me wonder what people's actual objections are to socialist revolution in the US?
1. There's opposition to socialism itself.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
I feel like those are the major/umbrella points of opposition I've encountered, but I'm curious if I'm missing any (they could easily be slipping my mind in the moment).
Are people familiar with objections to a socialist revolution in the US that don't fit one of those? One that I think you are missing is that in countries where there are relatively free and fair elections a revolution is not democratic. If your ideas are popular enough you can just win at the ballot box. Requiring a revolution to implement your new society is admitting that your policies are not popular enough. Does that not pretty squarely fall under 2? No, it falls under your 1. The objection itself ("revolution is not democratic") seems to me to fall under 2. Basically that US democracy is adequate to implement socialist ideas/policy worth having within US democracy's own parameters. Socialist ideas losing at the ballot box is certainly a reference to 1, but the objection itself is 2 as I read it. On February 03 2023 20:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
3 and 5 cover it somewhat but with a focus on lives and livelihoods, not comfort and status. Some people losing status / a change in what grants status would be a net positive . Are you comfortable saying I didn't miss any objections you're readily aware of? If your revolutionary ideas don't win elections, then it does not have enough support=1. I don't think is fair to assume that a lot of people "really" support your agenda but don't dare to for whatever reason.
Eh, that assumes that elections result in the person with most votes winning.
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What is the purpose of making such a classification of objections to socialist revolution?
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On February 04 2023 00:10 gobbledydook wrote:
What is the purpose of making such a classification of objections to socialist revolution? It lets GH blame everything except the movement itself for their failure.
Progressives have a literal roadmap of how to draw power to themselves and dictate policy as a minority faction by looking at the tea party and its evolution into Trumpism but instead they prefer to sulk about unfair the world is and how its silly that no one is interested in organizing a revolution for them.
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United States43907 Posts
On February 04 2023 00:15 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2023 00:10 gobbledydook wrote:
What is the purpose of making such a classification of objections to socialist revolution? It lets GH blame everything except the movement itself for their failure. Progressives have a literal roadmap of how to draw power to themselves and dictate policy as a minority faction by looking at the tea party and its evolution into Trumpism but instead they prefer to sulk about unfair the world is and how its silly that no one is interested in organizing a revolution for them.
This seems pointlessly rude, even to me.
He knows we’re generally not pro revolution and he’s asking us if his understanding of our reasons is correct.
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In Europe, there are typically 1-2 far left socialist parties. One of them might even have a goal of a revolution in their party program(!) At least in Norway, being forced to take a stand on how they really see revolution has been a major problem within the movement, and there is heavy disagreement.
The "Red" party in Norway would probably be to GH:s liking, and got a great result last election. Righ now, they are facing another problem: their ideology hindres them from supporting shipment of weapons to Ukraine. Their leader refuses to say what the thinks, and they look like fools.
A party like the "Red" will never get in a position to go through with their revolution. If they get close, and are forced to defend how they plan to turn society upside down, they will be heavily punished.
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On February 04 2023 00:15 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2023 00:10 gobbledydook wrote:
What is the purpose of making such a classification of objections to socialist revolution? It lets GH blame everything except the movement itself for their failure. Progressives have a literal roadmap of how to draw power to themselves and dictate policy as a minority faction by looking at the tea party and its evolution into Trumpism but instead they prefer to sulk about unfair the world is and how its silly that no one is interested in organizing a revolution for them.
I think there's a parallel in that progressives are mostly a subset of Democrats, and that Trump supporters are mostly a subset of Republicans, but I'm not sure if the tactics for gaining traction in one party will necessarily work for gaining traction in the other party. (There's probably a legitimate reason why Trump thought he'd succeed as a Republican candidate but fail as a Democratic candidate, flipping all his positions to conservative instead of liberal, like his stance on abortion.)
Also, even if an applicable roadmap does exist (with some minor adaptations), we're not exactly sure just yet if Trump and his supporters are going to continue being successful or if this is actually going to be a cautionary tale of how not to gain power. Trump did become president for a single term, but within a few years we've seen a lot of his controversial state picks lose elections, and who knows what's going to happen in 2024 and onward. If this short-term success doesn't lead to long-term representation, progressives might not want to follow Trump's lead.
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