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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3831

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
December 11 2022 05:08 GMT
#76601
I wanna say it’s been around since like 2012? Don’t care enough to check, but pretty sure it’s older than 2018.

I mean I think the only thing we disagree on is whether the system disadvantages Republicans specifically or just sucks in general. One of the bigger problems I have with the primary system is that it puts too many important decisions in a weird small election earlier in the year that nobody turns out for, and the only reason I liked the idea of this one is it let important intraparty decisions happen in the general instead. But the “lock out candidates” part still happens in the primary, which is maybe even worse. So yeah, let’s trash it, right? Ranked choice has its own problems but it’s gotta be better than this!
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2603 Posts
December 11 2022 11:22 GMT
#76602
On December 11 2022 09:01 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2022 08:58 gobbledydook wrote:
I'd like to argue that FTPT is not the problem.
Gerrymandering is. The incumbent writing rules to favor themselves is clearly anti democratic.


But FPTP leads to and enables all of the problems. In a proportional system, gerrymandering is simply not a problem.

That's like saying that car accidents can't happen without cars so the best way to reduce car accidents is to ban cars.
Yeah, that solves the problem, but you didn't really solve it, you just made it irrelevant.
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11519 Posts
December 11 2022 11:45 GMT
#76603
On December 11 2022 20:22 gobbledydook wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2022 09:01 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 08:58 gobbledydook wrote:
I'd like to argue that FTPT is not the problem.
Gerrymandering is. The incumbent writing rules to favor themselves is clearly anti democratic.


But FPTP leads to and enables all of the problems. In a proportional system, gerrymandering is simply not a problem.

That's like saying that car accidents can't happen without cars so the best way to reduce car accidents is to ban cars.
Yeah, that solves the problem, but you didn't really solve it, you just made it irrelevant.


Sure. But if you can make the problem irrelevant without any ill effects, you don't need to solve it.

I am sure that with todays population numbers, dealing with the shit of all of the horses on the horse carts people need to move around would be a massive problem and hard to solve. But we don't need to solve that problem, because people don't use horse carts anymore.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1921 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-11 12:42:22
December 11 2022 12:42 GMT
#76604
On December 11 2022 20:45 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2022 20:22 gobbledydook wrote:
On December 11 2022 09:01 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 08:58 gobbledydook wrote:
I'd like to argue that FTPT is not the problem.
Gerrymandering is. The incumbent writing rules to favor themselves is clearly anti democratic.


But FPTP leads to and enables all of the problems. In a proportional system, gerrymandering is simply not a problem.

That's like saying that car accidents can't happen without cars so the best way to reduce car accidents is to ban cars.
Yeah, that solves the problem, but you didn't really solve it, you just made it irrelevant.


Sure. But if you can make the problem irrelevant without any ill effects, you don't need to solve it.

I am sure that with todays population numbers, dealing with the shit of all of the horses on the horse carts people need to move around would be a massive problem and hard to solve. But we don't need to solve that problem, because people don't use horse carts anymore.


Right on.

But I was talking to an US conservative, and he wasn't the slightest worried that the system is undemocratic. He didn't even consider the US a democracy, but rather a "republic", whatever that means.

If someone consider it problematic that a majority gets its will, how do you even argue? Many conservatives feel entitled to a dispropotionate share of power. Minority rule is preferred, as long as THEY are that minority. That the Democrats still some times wins within this system is more than enough to keep the status quo, and if they can implement a better system for the conservatives, that is good.
Buff the siegetank
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35154 Posts
December 12 2022 11:27 GMT
#76605
On December 11 2022 10:01 Djabanete wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2022 09:01 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 08:58 gobbledydook wrote:
I'd like to argue that FTPT is not the problem.
Gerrymandering is. The incumbent writing rules to favor themselves is clearly anti democratic.


But FPTP leads to and enables all of the problems. In a proportional system, gerrymandering is simply not a problem.

A proportional system is certainly one solution.

I also remember reading, I forget where, a list of 8 or so geometrical/mathematical/geographical rules for drawing districts. I think it was a set of rules actually in force in a Scandinavian country. The point is that, with sensible and meaningful constraints on how districts are drawn, it may not be possible to game the system very much even if your aim is to make districts that favor yourself. I’m all for independent districting commissions, but the independent or partisan nature of the districting commission could be less important than the constraints under which they operate.

Ideally the rules for districting would be such that even the most self-interested party couldn’t get much mileage out of drawing the maps themselves.

Not much of a track record for sensible and meaningful rules from Scandinavian countries going on here though.
Mikau313
Profile Joined January 2021
Netherlands230 Posts
December 12 2022 14:03 GMT
#76606
And yet those same Scandinavian countries always get some of the highest scores in the world on Democracy Index and similar initiatives that spend their time 'scoring' how democratic countries are.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10722 Posts
December 12 2022 14:47 GMT
#76607
I have trouble understanding what is meant by:

"Not much of a track record for sensible and meaningful rules from Scandinavian countries going on here though."
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28674 Posts
December 12 2022 15:30 GMT
#76608
I understood it as 'the US does not have much of a track record in terms of adopting sensible policies that work in Scandinavian countries'.
Moderator
Mikau313
Profile Joined January 2021
Netherlands230 Posts
December 13 2022 07:42 GMT
#76609
In that case I completely misunderstood Gahlo, my apologies.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35154 Posts
December 13 2022 20:47 GMT
#76610
Yeah, I was hoping the "here" with my location tag would do enough lifting. Could have been clearer.
Razyda
Profile Joined March 2013
752 Posts
December 14 2022 01:13 GMT
#76611
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/13/desantis-seeks-grand-jury-investigation-of-covid-19-vaccines.html


DeSantis seeks grand jury investigation of Covid-19 vaccines

"Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said Tuesday that he plans to petition the state’s Supreme Court to convene a grand jury to investigate “any and all wrongdoing” with respect to the Covid-19 vaccines."

Is it only me, or is he basically launching his presidential campaign without committing, or saying so?
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2603 Posts
December 14 2022 01:21 GMT
#76612
On December 11 2022 21:42 Slydie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2022 20:45 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 20:22 gobbledydook wrote:
On December 11 2022 09:01 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 08:58 gobbledydook wrote:
I'd like to argue that FTPT is not the problem.
Gerrymandering is. The incumbent writing rules to favor themselves is clearly anti democratic.


But FPTP leads to and enables all of the problems. In a proportional system, gerrymandering is simply not a problem.

That's like saying that car accidents can't happen without cars so the best way to reduce car accidents is to ban cars.
Yeah, that solves the problem, but you didn't really solve it, you just made it irrelevant.


Sure. But if you can make the problem irrelevant without any ill effects, you don't need to solve it.

I am sure that with todays population numbers, dealing with the shit of all of the horses on the horse carts people need to move around would be a massive problem and hard to solve. But we don't need to solve that problem, because people don't use horse carts anymore.


Right on.

But I was talking to an US conservative, and he wasn't the slightest worried that the system is undemocratic. He didn't even consider the US a democracy, but rather a "republic", whatever that means.

If someone consider it problematic that a majority gets its will, how do you even argue? Many conservatives feel entitled to a dispropotionate share of power. Minority rule is preferred, as long as THEY are that minority. That the Democrats still some times wins within this system is more than enough to keep the status quo, and if they can implement a better system for the conservatives, that is good.


On the other side we have our resident communist GreenHorizon who believes in revolution and overthrow of the US government.
There are extremists on both sides.
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24690 Posts
December 14 2022 01:27 GMT
#76613
On the other side of what? Is GH suddenly a Democrat in your mind?
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7312 Posts
December 14 2022 01:49 GMT
#76614
GH is also not in a position of real authority within the US government basically at all, lol
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1921 Posts
December 14 2022 07:47 GMT
#76615
On December 14 2022 10:21 gobbledydook wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2022 21:42 Slydie wrote:
On December 11 2022 20:45 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 20:22 gobbledydook wrote:
On December 11 2022 09:01 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 08:58 gobbledydook wrote:
I'd like to argue that FTPT is not the problem.
Gerrymandering is. The incumbent writing rules to favor themselves is clearly anti democratic.


But FPTP leads to and enables all of the problems. In a proportional system, gerrymandering is simply not a problem.

That's like saying that car accidents can't happen without cars so the best way to reduce car accidents is to ban cars.
Yeah, that solves the problem, but you didn't really solve it, you just made it irrelevant.


Sure. But if you can make the problem irrelevant without any ill effects, you don't need to solve it.

I am sure that with todays population numbers, dealing with the shit of all of the horses on the horse carts people need to move around would be a massive problem and hard to solve. But we don't need to solve that problem, because people don't use horse carts anymore.


Right on.

But I was talking to an US conservative, and he wasn't the slightest worried that the system is undemocratic. He didn't even consider the US a democracy, but rather a "republic", whatever that means.

If someone consider it problematic that a majority gets its will, how do you even argue? Many conservatives feel entitled to a dispropotionate share of power. Minority rule is preferred, as long as THEY are that minority. That the Democrats still some times wins within this system is more than enough to keep the status quo, and if they can implement a better system for the conservatives, that is good.


On the other side we have our resident communist GreenHorizon who believes in revolution and overthrow of the US government.
There are extremists on both sides.


There have been times in the west when violent left-wing extremism was a relevant and dangerous force.

The last 30 years have not been such a time, but whataboutism is great to resort to.
Buff the siegetank
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11519 Posts
December 14 2022 07:52 GMT
#76616
On December 14 2022 16:47 Slydie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2022 10:21 gobbledydook wrote:
On December 11 2022 21:42 Slydie wrote:
On December 11 2022 20:45 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 20:22 gobbledydook wrote:
On December 11 2022 09:01 Simberto wrote:
On December 11 2022 08:58 gobbledydook wrote:
I'd like to argue that FTPT is not the problem.
Gerrymandering is. The incumbent writing rules to favor themselves is clearly anti democratic.


But FPTP leads to and enables all of the problems. In a proportional system, gerrymandering is simply not a problem.

That's like saying that car accidents can't happen without cars so the best way to reduce car accidents is to ban cars.
Yeah, that solves the problem, but you didn't really solve it, you just made it irrelevant.


Sure. But if you can make the problem irrelevant without any ill effects, you don't need to solve it.

I am sure that with todays population numbers, dealing with the shit of all of the horses on the horse carts people need to move around would be a massive problem and hard to solve. But we don't need to solve that problem, because people don't use horse carts anymore.


Right on.

But I was talking to an US conservative, and he wasn't the slightest worried that the system is undemocratic. He didn't even consider the US a democracy, but rather a "republic", whatever that means.

If someone consider it problematic that a majority gets its will, how do you even argue? Many conservatives feel entitled to a dispropotionate share of power. Minority rule is preferred, as long as THEY are that minority. That the Democrats still some times wins within this system is more than enough to keep the status quo, and if they can implement a better system for the conservatives, that is good.


On the other side we have our resident communist GreenHorizon who believes in revolution and overthrow of the US government.
There are extremists on both sides.


There have been times in the west when violent left-wing extremism was a relevant and dangerous force.

The last 30 years have not been such a time, but whataboutism is great to resort to.


There is a kind of well-known quote by a famous german comedian about this:

"left- or rightwing terrorism, i don't see any difference."
"No, no. One sets foreigners on fire, the other cars. And cars are worse, because it could be my car. I don't own any foreigners."
plasmidghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgium16168 Posts
December 14 2022 16:12 GMT
#76617
Texas AG Ken Paxton is requesting names and numbers of all trans people in the state that have changed their gender on state records in the past two years, which includes me. That he's asking for this is freaking me the fuck out. The data wasn't able to be provided yet, but I do not doubt for a second that Paxton will make it happen. Jesus I really can't ever return to Texas.

HOUSTON — Employees at the Texas Department of Public Safety in June received a sweeping request from Republican Attorney General Ken Paxton’s office: to compile a list of individuals who had changed their gender on their Texas driver’s license and other department records during the past two years.

“Need total number of changes from male to female and female to male for the last 24 months, broken down by month,” the chief of the DPS’s driver license division emailed colleagues in the department on June 30, according to a copy of a message obtained by The Washington Post through a public records request. “We won’t need DL/ID numbers at first but may need to have them later if we are required to manually look up documents.”

After more than 16,000 such instances were identified, DPS officials determined that a manual search would be needed to determine the reason for the changes, DPS spokesman Travis Considine told The Post in response to questions.

“A verbal request was received,” he wrote in an email. “Ultimately, our team advised the AG’s office the data requested neither exists nor could be accurately produced. Thus, no data of any kind was provided.”

Asked who in Paxton’s office had requested the records, he replied: “I cannot say.”

The behind-the-scenes effort by Paxton’s office to obtain data on how many Texans had changed their gender on their license came as the attorney general, Gov. Greg Abbott and other Republican leaders in the state have been publicly marshaling resources against transgender Texans.

Earlier this year, Abbott signed a bill banning transgender youths from participating in sports that align with their gender identity at K-12 public schools and ordered the state to investigate the provision of gender-affirming care as potential child abuse. State lawmakers have already proposed more than a dozen anti-LGBTQ measures ahead of the next session in January, including criminalizing gender-affirming care and banning minors at drag shows.

Public records obtained by The Post do not indicate why the attorney general’s office sought the driver’s license information. But advocates for transgender Texans say Paxton could use the data to further restrict their right to transition, calling it a chilling effort to secretly harness personal information to persecute already vulnerable people.

“This is another brick building toward targeting these individuals,” said Ian Pittman, an Austin attorney who represents Texas parents of transgender children investigated by the state. “They’ve already targeted children and parents. The next step would be targeting adults. And what better way than seeing what adults had had their sex changed on their driver’s licenses?”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/14/texas-transgender-data-paxton/
Yugoslavia will always live on in my heart
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11519 Posts
December 14 2022 16:23 GMT
#76618
That does definitively sound sinister.

And it is all so stupid. That is the weird thing. This whole conflict is pointless. Literally all they would need to do is leave people alone, and it would have no negative consequences for anyone. Yet they have to do this, for no discernable reason.

This, once again, is one of those cases where i have a hard time viewing republicans as anything but simply evil.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
December 15 2022 03:05 GMT
#76619
On December 15 2022 01:12 plasmidghost wrote:
Texas AG Ken Paxton is requesting names and numbers of all trans people in the state that have changed their gender on state records in the past two years, which includes me. That he's asking for this is freaking me the fuck out. The data wasn't able to be provided yet, but I do not doubt for a second that Paxton will make it happen. Jesus I really can't ever return to Texas.

Show nested quote +
HOUSTON — Employees at the Texas Department of Public Safety in June received a sweeping request from Republican Attorney General Ken Paxton’s office: to compile a list of individuals who had changed their gender on their Texas driver’s license and other department records during the past two years.

“Need total number of changes from male to female and female to male for the last 24 months, broken down by month,” the chief of the DPS’s driver license division emailed colleagues in the department on June 30, according to a copy of a message obtained by The Washington Post through a public records request. “We won’t need DL/ID numbers at first but may need to have them later if we are required to manually look up documents.”

After more than 16,000 such instances were identified, DPS officials determined that a manual search would be needed to determine the reason for the changes, DPS spokesman Travis Considine told The Post in response to questions.

“A verbal request was received,” he wrote in an email. “Ultimately, our team advised the AG’s office the data requested neither exists nor could be accurately produced. Thus, no data of any kind was provided.”

Asked who in Paxton’s office had requested the records, he replied: “I cannot say.”

The behind-the-scenes effort by Paxton’s office to obtain data on how many Texans had changed their gender on their license came as the attorney general, Gov. Greg Abbott and other Republican leaders in the state have been publicly marshaling resources against transgender Texans.

Earlier this year, Abbott signed a bill banning transgender youths from participating in sports that align with their gender identity at K-12 public schools and ordered the state to investigate the provision of gender-affirming care as potential child abuse. State lawmakers have already proposed more than a dozen anti-LGBTQ measures ahead of the next session in January, including criminalizing gender-affirming care and banning minors at drag shows.

Public records obtained by The Post do not indicate why the attorney general’s office sought the driver’s license information. But advocates for transgender Texans say Paxton could use the data to further restrict their right to transition, calling it a chilling effort to secretly harness personal information to persecute already vulnerable people.

“This is another brick building toward targeting these individuals,” said Ian Pittman, an Austin attorney who represents Texas parents of transgender children investigated by the state. “They’ve already targeted children and parents. The next step would be targeting adults. And what better way than seeing what adults had had their sex changed on their driver’s licenses?”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/14/texas-transgender-data-paxton/



Texas objectively sucks, don't worry about not going back.
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2603 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-15 11:58:45
December 15 2022 11:58 GMT
#76620
On December 14 2022 10:49 Zambrah wrote:
GH is also not in a position of real authority within the US government basically at all, lol

Neither is this "US conservative".
I think the comparison is fair.
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
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