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On September 03 2022 07:53 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2022 06:36 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I gotta admit that when you said Yale had more admins than students I couldn't believe that was true. Seems like it isn't, fully - they have slightly more admins than undergraduates, but the total student body is more than twice that.
That said - I think a 2.4:1 ratio also sounds completely bonkers and it's hard for me to understand the necessity for that. The university in Trondheim has about 40000 students and 7700 employees - but more than 5000 of those teach or research (or both) - and while I don't have the exact numbers, it seems like there are about 1800 admins for 40k+ students. I think even that sounds like a lot - and the discussion of administrative bloat is actually slightly present here, too. Imo, it's also a well run university - I always got the help I needed whenever I needed it, even if I had pretty weird/rare requests when I studied there.
I really, genuinely, don't understand why 4700 undergrads and 7,357 graduate students need more than 5000 administrators to handle their needs. It's clearly bonkers. But don't forget that the University of Trondheim doesn't also organize its own housing for most of the students, run a few definitely-not-professional sports teams (and their gigantic stadiums) and probably a whole bunch of other stuff I don't know about. Universities in Europe are almost exclusively centers of teaching and research. There's generally a single sports complex, a few restaurants, a botanical garden, and maybe some limited housing on campus, but anything beyond that is left to the students/faculty to organise themselves. Many university campuses in the US are almost towns unto themselves.
What you say about American universities is a problem in itself. Sports organizations being tied to universities are stupid, athletic scholarships are stupid, university stadiums are stupid -- this sort of stuff should be accessible to the public at large rather than serving as a way to attract more applicants to make more money. Same goes for oversized libraries, concert / exhibition halls, and everything else really -- it's utterly insane how all of this basically became an arms race between universities, especially since so much of it ends up being funded by various government grants or student loans which at the end of the day are also at least partially sponsored by tax money. Essentially, tax payers are funding all this infrastructure that ends up used exclusively by university students which just doesn't make sense.
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Not to mention how exploitative a lot of the college/uni sports are. Cultivating sports is a healthy thing but not in the way America does it.
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Absolutely agreed.
Universities should do two things: Teaching and Research. Maybe cheap and affordable student housing. That is it. Everything else should only exist if it helps the university perform one of those core functions.
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On September 04 2022 18:58 Simberto wrote:
Absolutely agreed.
Universities should do two things: Teaching and Research. Maybe cheap and affordable student housing. That is it. Everything else should only exist if it helps the university perform one of those core functions.
They should perform at least a third function right
Connect students with employers
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Norway28894 Posts
I'm fine with universities having a bigger, more integrated role in society than that, tbh. Especially in big student towns. In Trondheim, more than 15% of the population are students, and I really appreciate how vibrant the city gets during student festivals and the 'party weeks' - even though I'm more than a decade too old to participate. Student towns using campus areas for cultural activities is just sensible use of resources imo - and investing in some amount of student enjoyment and creating arenas for socializing is investing in student learning.
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United States44288 Posts
My second job in the US was as a university admin. It was important work, making and tracking the department budget, making sure the staff got paid, managing expenses and CapEx, answering the phones, keeping the department generally running. The department chair made $250k and couldn’t use computers so paying me $25k/year to help him out was a very good use of resources. The alternative was making one of the tenured professors take time out of teaching/research/begging the state for more money and frankly they’re not good at admin.
While there I didn’t meet any admins doing jobs that shouldn’t exist, it’s just the scope of what universities do is pretty broad. I also didn’t meet many well paid admins, even the Sr accounting positions made considerably less than the private sector alternatives.
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Having admin isn't an issue. obviously you need staff to handle those things, teachers should be teaching.
The contention is about how much admin do they need
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On September 05 2022 05:50 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 01:42 gobbledydook wrote:On September 04 2022 18:58 Simberto wrote:
Absolutely agreed.
Universities should do two things: Teaching and Research. Maybe cheap and affordable student housing. That is it. Everything else should only exist if it helps the university perform one of those core functions. They should perform at least a third function right Connect students with employers One of the best parts about coming to Europe is that university sports here in Belgium are, to my knowledge, nonexistent. My fiancée's university provides student housing at €400 a month. Their courses are actively designed to make them as knowledgeable and employable as possible, and internships and referrals after graduation are guaranteed. The price for them as a non-EEA resident is like 80-90% cheaper than a university in the US. This is what Americans are missing out on.
That's awesome. In the United States, deciding to live on campus (as opposed to commuting) can easily double your annual tuition (an additional $10-20K+ per year, in many cases).
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I spent a year abroad as a senior at a US highschool in '06/'07. One of the friends I made there had an incredible work ethic but came from an extremely poor family. I've never been at his place but I recall other kids saying that his family could not even afford to fix the broken windows in some of the rooms of their small house. What I certainly know is that his father has been out of work for a couple of years due to health issues. Either way this guy put up extreme effort at school and managed to become the valedictorian in the senior class of about 120 kids. This helped him get a "full ride" at university (Elmira college). I heard the value of the "full ride" being about $180k back then but I am not sure anymore. Either way, it was an absurdly high amount of money. The crazy part however was that the "full ride" did not cover the student housing. I rememeber that I heard about living on campus being mandatory for the first year or two from school mates in the US but I do not remember if this was the case for Elmira as well (currently their websire lists it as mandatory unless: "The exception to living on campus is any undergraduate student who lives with a legal guardian within 30 miles, is 25 years of age or older, or is married or living with biological children."). However, Elmira is 260 miles from where he lived, so a daily commute was not an option (not like he could afford a car anyway). The student housing at Elmira cost about $8000/year for a shared room back then... (just checked their website: the current yearly boarding rate is $13,388). So this guy, who was by all accounts dirt poor, had to fork over about $8k/year for some tiny, shitty, shared room despite receiving a "full ride". This seemed like absolute madness to me. When I went back to Germany, I finished high school there and entered university in '09. I had to move to another city and share an apartment with a friend (we both had our own rooms, though), Despite it being an apartment that was not supplied through the university my yearly cost for it was "only" ~€3600. Friends who lived in housing supplied through the university payed as little as ~€1500/year up to ~€2500/year. And of course, in Germany a shared room is not a thing - everybody has his own room. What is shared is the kitchen and - for the cheaper places - the bathrooms. The difference for the cost of housing between the US and Germany seems absolutely absurd... Oh yeah, and our yearly university fee was ~€1200 in '09. Somewhere between 2010 and 2012, it was slashed to about €500/year... which also included a ticket for all public transportation (without high-speed trains) for the region... In my case the region was a 250km x 250km area...
The cost of university in the US is absolutely absurd. Mandatory on campus living for undergraduates is another absurd requirement that obviously is there for no reason other than milking more money out of the poor souls that decided they need a university degree. It is absolutely crazy to me that somebody who got a "full ride" has to pay more for the privilege to receive a higher education than me, who had the "luxury" of living at a private apartment. By the way, the rent in Germany has skyrocketed in the past few years. Currently, rent is easily about €6k to €8k per year in the city my university is, if you live in a private apartment (significantly less if you get into university provided housing). The city (Aachen) has easily an above average cost of living for a university city (albeit certainly not making the very top of the list of most expensive university cities in Germany). With an €8k/yearly rent and ~€650 "tuition" (that includes free public transportation), a university student in Aachen now has to pay about the same as my valecditorian friend in the US, who received a "full ride" mind you, some 15 years ago... The higher education system in the US is absolutely fucked in my opinion...
btw, my friend from the US still went to Elmira back then. I assume he took some loans to afford to do it despite his "full ride". Last time I heard of him, he was just about to finish his phd in psychology there. I am very glad he made it, but being able to get a higher education when coming from a poor family really should not be tied to being an absolutely exceptional person and still getting in debt...
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On September 05 2022 09:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 05:50 plasmidghost wrote:On September 05 2022 01:42 gobbledydook wrote:On September 04 2022 18:58 Simberto wrote:
Absolutely agreed.
Universities should do two things: Teaching and Research. Maybe cheap and affordable student housing. That is it. Everything else should only exist if it helps the university perform one of those core functions. They should perform at least a third function right Connect students with employers One of the best parts about coming to Europe is that university sports here in Belgium are, to my knowledge, nonexistent. My fiancée's university provides student housing at €400 a month. Their courses are actively designed to make them as knowledgeable and employable as possible, and internships and referrals after graduation are guaranteed. The price for them as a non-EEA resident is like 80-90% cheaper than a university in the US. This is what Americans are missing out on. That's awesome. In the United States, deciding to live on campus (as opposed to commuting) can easily double your annual tuition (an additional $10-20K+ per year, in many cases).
The public university I attended was one of the more affordable options in the state of Texas. Tuition was ~$7.5k a semester (so $15k/year) and room and board was the same, so students living on campus were expected to spend/get loans totalling $30k/year. That's $120k if you finish in 4 years. Oh, also, that's the price for students from Texas. It's more expensive if you're from a different state and want to go to school there.
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I wish attending community college had less stigma to it. A lot of people could save so much money if they spent 2 years at their community college and then transfer for the last two. Hell, I decided to go back to school last fall and was almost $3k positive just from Pell and state grants, and would have been more if I had gone full time(though my unfinished degree didn't allow it).
Of course, I also benefit from having a really nice community college with good transfer options.
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On September 05 2022 11:03 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 09:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 05 2022 05:50 plasmidghost wrote:On September 05 2022 01:42 gobbledydook wrote:On September 04 2022 18:58 Simberto wrote:
Absolutely agreed.
Universities should do two things: Teaching and Research. Maybe cheap and affordable student housing. That is it. Everything else should only exist if it helps the university perform one of those core functions. They should perform at least a third function right Connect students with employers One of the best parts about coming to Europe is that university sports here in Belgium are, to my knowledge, nonexistent. My fiancée's university provides student housing at €400 a month. Their courses are actively designed to make them as knowledgeable and employable as possible, and internships and referrals after graduation are guaranteed. The price for them as a non-EEA resident is like 80-90% cheaper than a university in the US. This is what Americans are missing out on. That's awesome. In the United States, deciding to live on campus (as opposed to commuting) can easily double your annual tuition (an additional $10-20K+ per year, in many cases). The public university I attended was one of the more affordable options in the state of Texas. Tuition was ~$7.5k a semester (so $15k/year) and room and board was the same, so students living on campus were expected to spend/get loans totalling $30k/year. That's $120k if you finish in 4 years. Oh, also, that's the price for students from Texas. It's more expensive if you're from a different state and want to go to school there.
Yeah that happens all the time across many states sadly:
Level 1: You want to commute to a university in your current state = that's a serious amount of student debt;
Level 2: You want to live on campus at a university in your current state = that's a ton of student debt;
Level 3: You live in a different state/country and want to travel to a new state's university = LOL.
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On September 05 2022 11:17 Gahlo wrote:
I wish attending community college had less stigma to it. A lot of people could save so much money if they spent 2 years at their community college and then transfer for the last two. Hell, I decided to go back to school last fall and was almost $3k positive just from Pell and state grants, and would have been more if I had gone full time(though my unfinished degree didn't allow it).
Of course, I also benefit from having a really nice community college with good transfer options.
We (high school teachers) are doing our best to normalize exactly this*, for the very real financial reasons that you and others are laying out. It doesn't really matter where you take your introductory/101 courses, as long as the credits transfer, so you might as well have two years of affordable college before going into (less) debt for the second half of that undergraduate degree.
We're also trying to normalize other non-college alternatives, because college isn't necessary for everyone. Trade schools, apprenticeships, working right out of high school, a gap year, the military, etc. are all options that 16-18 years olds should consider when making the decision that works best for them. And if the decision ends up being *college*, then there should be a lot of shopping around and not just trying to dive into the deepest amount of debt. Unfortunately, teenagers have no concept of how *the biggest financial decision of their entire life, up to that point* is going to affect them, and some parents still don't understand it either, so it becomes yet another super-important conversation that high school teachers and guidance counselors need to have with the students.
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On September 05 2022 11:17 Gahlo wrote:
I wish attending community college had less stigma to it. A lot of people could save so much money if they spent 2 years at their community college and then transfer for the last two. Hell, I decided to go back to school last fall and was almost $3k positive just from Pell and state grants, and would have been more if I had gone full time(though my unfinished degree didn't allow it).
Of course, I also benefit from having a really nice community college with good transfer options.
One of my cousins is a senior in hs and is looking at colleges. I saw my aunt today and told her to please consider community college as a real option. It's much more affordable and the classes/professors can be just as good as the ones at a 4-year university.
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On September 05 2022 05:50 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 01:42 gobbledydook wrote:On September 04 2022 18:58 Simberto wrote:
Absolutely agreed.
Universities should do two things: Teaching and Research. Maybe cheap and affordable student housing. That is it. Everything else should only exist if it helps the university perform one of those core functions. They should perform at least a third function right Connect students with employers One of the best parts about coming to Europe is that university sports here in Belgium are, to my knowledge, nonexistent. My fiancée's university provides student housing at €400 a month. Their courses are actively designed to make them as knowledgeable and employable as possible, and internships and referrals after graduation are guaranteed. The price for them as a non-EEA resident is like 80-90% cheaper than a university in the US. This is what Americans are missing out on.
That's because we pay taxes to fund the education, it seems like it's a very alienated view for Americans, yet they try to solve it in some other way (which is kinda impossible).
EDIT: I am not arguing any system is better, i have my opinion but whatever it is it doesn't belong in this thread. I am just saying free (or less costly) education probably is not possible in USA because people are not willing to pay for that, each of them.
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A judge appointed by trump a week after he lost ruling on trumps investigation is totally not the grosest conflict of interest you've seen yet.
Her then making sweeping rulings on things that were not brought up and proposing that executive privilege is forever and applicable to anything possible isn't weird either idk.
All this of course because labor day apparently isn't a holiday as well.
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On September 06 2022 09:04 Sermokala wrote:
A judge appointed by trump a week after he lost ruling on trumps investigation is totally not the grosest conflict of interest you've seen yet.
Her then making sweeping rulings on things that were not brought up and proposing that executive privilege is forever and applicable to anything possible isn't weird either idk.
All this of course because labor day apparently isn't a holiday as well.
It feels like they know the supreme court will hand them whatever they want so they're just loading their request ticket up to the brim.
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On September 06 2022 02:00 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2022 05:50 plasmidghost wrote:On September 05 2022 01:42 gobbledydook wrote:On September 04 2022 18:58 Simberto wrote:
Absolutely agreed.
Universities should do two things: Teaching and Research. Maybe cheap and affordable student housing. That is it. Everything else should only exist if it helps the university perform one of those core functions. They should perform at least a third function right Connect students with employers One of the best parts about coming to Europe is that university sports here in Belgium are, to my knowledge, nonexistent. My fiancée's university provides student housing at €400 a month. Their courses are actively designed to make them as knowledgeable and employable as possible, and internships and referrals after graduation are guaranteed. The price for them as a non-EEA resident is like 80-90% cheaper than a university in the US. This is what Americans are missing out on. That's because we pay taxes to fund the education, it seems like it's a very alienated view for Americans, yet they try to solve it in some other way (which is kinda impossible). EDIT: I am not arguing any system is better, i have my opinion but whatever it is it doesn't belong in this thread. I am just saying free (or less costly) education probably is not possible in USA because people are not willing to pay for that, each of them.
The US actually spends more on education than most European countries do.
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EPT
