|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
@kwark I'm fairly certain 90+% of western countries and likely higher then that and likely a huge % of the world requires an ID to vote, this is such a silly argument I literally cannot abide it. Getting an ID is not rocket appliances lets try to get a grip here.
|
United States42778 Posts
On June 22 2022 14:20 Taelshin wrote:
@kwark I'm fairly certain 90+% of western countries and likely higher then that and likely a huge % of the world requires an ID to vote, this is such a silly argument I literally cannot abide it. Getting an ID is not rocket appliances lets try to get a grip here.
Yeah, the US is a special snowflake here in terms of just how much they hate minorities and the poor. Both historically and today. Things that are fine elsewhere aren’t always fine in the US. It’d be nice if that wasn’t the case but wishing things were better doesn’t actually change the world.
|
On June 22 2022 14:20 Taelshin wrote:
@kwark I'm fairly certain 90+% of western countries and likely higher then that and likely a huge % of the world requires an ID to vote, this is such a silly argument I literally cannot abide it. Getting an ID is not rocket appliances lets try to get a grip here.
99% of other countries don’t actively try to make it as difficult as possible to vote. That’s the problem with America, just about nothing is done in good faith.
In theory voter ID laws are fine, most countries just need you to provide some form of proof of address or basic identification like a utility bill, health care card, or student ID/bank cards. Just about everyone has this, most countries don’t even a specific requirement where you have to justify why you don’t have photo ID from a US institution like you’re supposedly have to do in Texas as an example. I don’t know how it works in practice in Texas but the implication here seems pretty shit not going to lie.
Most countries are fine with you going to your local school and handing over a bank card. But you’ve got US states pulling people off voter rolls, intentionally disenfranchising people with very minor infringements to their criminal record, removing polling places where certain demographics are most concentrated, and purposely gerrymander because they know their policies are shit and unpopular. No one trusts either side to do this right because both sides often operate in clear bad faith, though Republicans are way more guilty of this and I have to assume a lot of their obsession with voter fraud is pure projection with the small number of Republicans who get busted committing voter fraud every election.
As an aside, you can tell the majority of people in this forum are men because you wouldn’t believe the type of shit women have to go through simply because a large chunk of them get their surnames changed during marriage. For them, getting formal ID is often laborious in both time and effort, since you often have to run around to every department imaginable, sometimes multiple times because they fuck up, because you need to certify a million documents. People don’t have time for this shit, most people wouldn’t bother with this shit and rightfully so.
It also costs a fuckload because you have to fill out extra forms and obtain extra documents, something men generally won’t need. Good luck if you have a poor grasp of English because you’re going to go to hell trying to obtain something like a passport…which I learnt the hard way when applying for one for my mother.
|
On June 22 2022 14:20 Taelshin wrote:
@kwark I'm fairly certain 90+% of western countries and likely higher then that and likely a huge % of the world requires an ID to vote, this is such a silly argument I literally cannot abide it. Getting an ID is not rocket appliances lets try to get a grip here. The rest of the world is less openly racist and doesn't make it so difficult to acquire an ID for certain groups of people.
|
Shit, Japan might limit voting to citizens only but even they just dump you onto the voter roll automatically once you are of age, give you a postcard if your birthday is like the same week as Election Day, and just check a computer if you’re a doofus and forget to bring everything on Election Day. This is a country that uses goddamn fax machines still and even they have enough brains to check a computer to make sure you can vote and are not double voting.
Somewhere like Sweden just let’s you bring someone who can vouch for you if you’re totally SOL. As far as I know, Sweden doesn’t have a mass epidemic of illegal voting.
Only America is intentionally, and obviously intentionally, trying to introduce more and more bureaucratic nonsense into the voting system. The solutions to voter fraud are actually really easy and don’t inconvenience people but every effort in America has the clear opposite intent.
|
On June 22 2022 14:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 14:20 Taelshin wrote:
@kwark I'm fairly certain 90+% of western countries and likely higher then that and likely a huge % of the world requires an ID to vote, this is such a silly argument I literally cannot abide it. Getting an ID is not rocket appliances lets try to get a grip here. Yeah, the US is a special snowflake here in terms of just how much they hate minorities and the poor. Both historically and today. Things that are fine elsewhere aren’t always fine in the US. It’d be nice if that wasn’t the case but wishing things were better doesn’t actually change the world.
Exactly.
For example, here in Germany, there are two way to vote. Either with your ID or with your election information letter.
Every person eligible for the election gets a personal letter informing them when and where to vote. They can then just bring that letter to the poll box, show it to the people there, and vote. Or they show their national ID, which once again every German citizen already has anyways. (EU citizens who are eligible to vote need to once again either bring their letter or some equivalent ID document from their origin country)
I have never heard of this being a problem for anyone, but the reason for that is that we actually try to make it as easy as possible for voters to vote, and an election is generally seen as more legitimate the more people vote.
You absolutely can do voter ID laws without it being a shitshow. As you said, I don't trust the US, and especially the republican-ran states, to do that, though.
If you want to do voter ID, do it the other way around. Start with a national ID, and make every effort possible to make it as easy as possible for everyone to get one. Eventually, make it mandatory to have one. Then, once everyone has that ID, make that ID necessary to vote.
|
The reason it works in other countries is that there is an implicit trust that citizens will try and do the right thing when doing their civic duty. That’s why a lot of countries automatically register you to vote and often post the certification required like a coming-of-age postcard in Japan or personal letter as you mentioned in Germany.
You’re a citizen, the government has your details unless you’re literally off the grid. Which then you probably wouldn’t want voter ID laws to pass or even care much about it because you don’t want the government to know you exist. There shouldn’t be a reason why you’re not eligible to vote because you didn’t have time or forgot to register by an often arbitrary date despite being a working and tax paying citizen. That’s just an accepted way of life in the majority of countries.
That’s also why it doesn’t work in the US because voting laws are implicitly about a fear that someone is going to do the wrong thing. That’s why shit like gerrymandering is often accepted as a way of running a state because you absolutely cannot let the other side enter power because they’re absolutely going to operate in bad faith. It’s absolutely the case in blue states with an actual running political machine and by god is it true in any state with a Republican majority.
Just thinking about the voting ID laws in context really doesn’t give anyone much hope for the continued strength of the US really because it’s ultimately a very simple issue that doesn’t even cost much to properly resolve. Yet the US is choosing the most hoop jumping option because of the implicit fear that more than a dozen people will do the wrong thing.
|
Northern Ireland25476 Posts
On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president.
‘Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves.’
The media in general, ‘Marxist’ universities etc etc. At this stage are there institutions this particular section of conservatism does have any faith in? I presume you’re a more traditional conservative and perhaps not an able spokesman in this domain. It strikes me very much as reactionary populism from people who are unable or unwilling to countenance living in pluralist societies that have institutions with specific roles who may on occasion do things one doesn’t personally like.
If institutions are so flawed where’s the big push, the ideas to fix them coming from? Much of the impetus, at least visibly is dealing with the real important issues of the day like abortion, or trying to get rid of trans people. I’m sure there are other items on the agenda I have missed from my particular island the other side of the agenda.
I would agree that the Dems are clutching on to the issue to detract from their own failings and it’s not the most important issue facing Americans, it’s still AN important issue.
I mean we’re not talking 5-10% of people holding these kind of positions.
Point taken re gripes about legitimacy, albeit with differing degrees of extremity. I’ve encountered enough belief that Russia handed Trump the election and pushed Brexit over the line to think those are pretty widespread views, ones I don’t personally agree with.
One can still think the Electoral College is a bad rule to play the game by but still accept that it’s the system the game is currently played with.
|
On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president.
This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit.
Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty.
We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society.
This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively bad faith.
|
Northern Ireland25476 Posts
On June 22 2022 19:25 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president. This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit. Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty. We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society. This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively had faith.
Death is a bit extreme could we not just exile them to Mohdoo IslandTM? We may need to shelve our plans to upgrade this fine resort with complimentary internet access mind…
|
On June 22 2022 19:25 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president. This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit. Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty. We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society. This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively had faith.
It is precisely this corrosive attitude on both sides about treating the other side as enemies to be destroyed by any means rather than fellow Americans with a different opinion, which makes simple issues so hard to solve.
As much as you wish your enemies to not exist, they won't just disappear tomorrow, so you either gotta live with it or get out of there.
|
On June 22 2022 19:39 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 19:25 Sadist wrote:On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president. This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit. Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty. We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society. This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively had faith. It is precisely this corrosive attitude on both sides about treating the other side as enemies to be destroyed by any means rather than fellow Americans with a different opinion, which makes simple issues so hard to solve. As much as you wish your enemies to not exist, they won't just disappear tomorrow, so you either gotta live with it or get out of there. 'lets just get along' becomes kind of hard when one side organised a literal armed insurrection with the intent of overthrowing the government and installing their own.
This is not just a difference of opinion.
|
Refusing to accept dangerous and toxic behavior is not the problem here. This is not a both sides issue. Tolerating intolerance, and so on.
|
United States24690 Posts
As frustrating as this thread can be to read… exactly how much “good faith” do you expect in political discussions with people politically aligned with armed insurrectionists who attempted to subvert democratic elections?
|
On June 22 2022 20:29 micronesia wrote:
As frustrating as this thread can be to read… exactly how much “good faith” do you expect in political discussions with people politically aligned with armed insurrectionists who attempted to subvert democratic elections?
Should we just ban them? Im not sure how to reach them. Discourse doesnt work when EXCLUSIVELY bad faith is involved. We have to start on the premise that people are giving honest and sincerely held beliefs/positions. I dont think thats the case in most instances.
|
On June 22 2022 19:39 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 19:25 Sadist wrote:On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president. This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit. Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty. We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society. This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively had faith. It is precisely this corrosive attitude on both sides about treating the other side as enemies to be destroyed by any means rather than fellow Americans with a different opinion, which makes simple issues so hard to solve. As much as you wish your enemies to not exist, they won't just disappear tomorrow, so you either gotta live with it or get out of there.
The issue is that while Democrats are generally pretty awful, I'd like to think they're fairly consistent in what they actually stand for. Most of it disappointing at best but its consistent and fits their world view. Some might disagree but I think there's some degree of reasoning you can have with most Liberals.
Modern conservatism is just so inconsistent beyond using whatever avenues to hurt another group of people. Like what major policy have they put forward in the last decade that didn't actively try to restrict rights and access to services to a minority group?
Like look at the sheer amount of effort and money just to stop the handful transgender teenagers from participating in high school sports. Its an absurd waste of money and effort to deal with a problem that literally isn't a problem. If you spend even a minute thinking why there are no transgender basketball players dunking on the WNBA like early 2000s Shaq, you've answered your own question.
Even Utah's Governor wrote how idiotic it is for his Republican colleagues, who claim to be from the party of fiscal responsibility, to use millions of dollars and all this legislative effort to ruin one, literally one, teenager from participating in high school sport that she wasn't even that good at. They didn't even target the NCAA level (which at least makes some degree of internal logical sense since great NCAA performances can lead to actual careers in professional sports) but goddamn high school sports where everything is close to worthless unless you're LeBron James. Which then it doesn't matter if there's a transgender kid in your year group, you're getting drafted no matter what.
The gun violence issue is also a prime example of this inconsistent no faith bullshit modern conservatives subscribe to. They keep saying mental illness is the issue and not guns, since guns don't kill people. OK fine, logic would say you'd put up a no strings attached bill for a huge national mental illness policy to address this issue since you actually want to stop mass shootings. But they don't even do that and often actually gut funding for health services like Gov. Abbott did.
I dunno, you think mental health is a primary reason for mass shootings and at the same time go through the effort to cut funding for mental health services. The logic is hard to comprehend here, the Democrats at least say gun control is needed and might actually put forward a gun control bill when shit goes down when they get half a spine. Will it work? Probably not but the logic is there which is the most I can ask for these days.
But Abbott's behaviour? The only way his position and actions makes sense is if he thinks stopping mass shootings is worth less than the money you're saving from health care cuts or he's actually cynically pro-mass shootings. Both extremely unreasonable positions that really bring into question a person's actual ethics.
|
|
|
Northern Ireland25476 Posts
On June 22 2022 21:47 AssBurstCrawler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 19:39 gobbledydook wrote:On June 22 2022 19:25 Sadist wrote:On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president. This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit. Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty. We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society. This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively had faith. It is precisely this corrosive attitude on both sides about treating the other side as enemies to be destroyed by any means rather than fellow Americans with a different opinion, which makes simple issues so hard to solve. As much as you wish your enemies to not exist, they won't just disappear tomorrow, so you either gotta live with it or get out of there. The issue is that while Democrats are generally pretty awful, I'd like to think they're fairly consistent in what they actually stand for. Most of it disappointing at best but its consistent and fits their world view. Some might disagree but I think there's some degree of reasoning you can have with most Liberals. Modern conservatism is just so inconsistent beyond using whatever avenues to hurt another group of people. Like what major policy have they put forward in the last decade that didn't actively try to restrict rights and access to services to a minority group? Like look at the sheer amount of effort and money just to stop the handful transgender teenagers from participating in high school sports. Its an absurd waste of money and effort to deal with a problem that literally isn't a problem. If you spend even a minute thinking why there are no transgender basketball players dunking on the WNBA like early 2000s Shaq, you've answered your own question. Even Utah's Governor wrote how idiotic it is for his Republican colleagues, who claim to be from the party of fiscal responsibility, to use millions of dollars and all this legislative effort to ruin one, literally one, teenager from participating in high school sport that she wasn't even that good at. They didn't even target the NCAA level (which at least makes some degree of internal logical sense since great NCAA performances can lead to actual careers in professional sports) but goddamn high school sports where everything is close to worthless unless you're LeBron James. Which then it doesn't matter if there's a transgender kid in your year group, you're getting drafted no matter what. The gun violence issue is also a prime example of this inconsistent no faith bullshit modern conservatives subscribe to. They keep saying mental illness is the issue and not guns, since guns don't kill people. OK fine, logic would say you'd put up a no strings attached bill for a huge national mental illness policy to address this issue since you actually want to stop mass shootings. But they don't even do that and often actually gut funding for health services like Gov. Abbott did. I dunno, you think mental health is a primary reason for mass shootings and at the same time go through the effort to cut funding for mental health services. The logic is hard to comprehend here, the Democrats at least say gun control is needed and might actually put forward a gun control bill when shit goes down when they get half a spine. Will it work? Probably not but the logic is there which is the most I can ask for these days. But Abbott's behaviour? The only way his position and actions makes sense is if he thinks stopping mass shootings is worth less than the money you're saving from health care cuts or he's actually cynically pro-mass shootings. Both extremely unreasonable positions that really bring into question a person's actual ethics.
This in a nutshell, welcome to the thread oh delightfully named one.
It’s ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps, get a better job, welcome to capitalism’ one minute then it’s ‘oh noes my gas is too expensive now help me government’ the next. The Constitution is sacred oh let’s storm the Capitol.
There’s no consistent throughput whatsoever outside of wanting their own position and proclivities protected no matter what.
I will provide the usual caveat that not all conservatives are like this, many have consistent principles they stick to and engage in good faith disagreement.
This new breed is, incredibly entitled, ideologically incoherent, usually ignorant of basic reality and loud and aggressive to boot. Great combo right there.
Short of a collective mea culpa from swathes the populace (across the spectrum) conceding that actually they don’t know all that much about politics, economics, medicine etc and deferring vaguely to people who actually do again, I don’t see this phenomena getting better any time soon.
|
On June 22 2022 14:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 14:20 Taelshin wrote:
@kwark I'm fairly certain 90+% of western countries and likely higher then that and likely a huge % of the world requires an ID to vote, this is such a silly argument I literally cannot abide it. Getting an ID is not rocket appliances lets try to get a grip here. Yeah, the US is a special snowflake here in terms of just how much they hate minorities and the poor. Both historically and today. Things that are fine elsewhere aren’t always fine in the US. It’d be nice if that wasn’t the case but wishing things were better doesn’t actually change the world.
Voter ID is a no brainer to me (and i am considered left wing according to us standards). How else could you make sure that elections are fair. If people can vote without even having to show an identification.
If getting an ID is a big problem for many americans then that is the problem that should be adressed. Instead of accepting that fact and make adjustments elsewhere in society. So that you do not need an ID for activities that you would need an ID for in virtually any other western nation.
Making getting an ID easier would help certain minorities and the poor way more then making it possible to vote without ID.
You do need an ID for many different economic activities,like opening a bank account.
Instead of focussing on not needing an ID to vote the democrats should focus on making it possible for everyone to get an ID with some reasonable effort. They have their priorities wrong and the motive for that is 100% electoral not ideological.
Maybe democrats and republicans can strike a compromise (compromise=both sides give something and both sides get something). Where you will need an ID to vote and where it is also possible to get an ID with reasonable effort.
|
That would be a great compromise that we could all accept.
Do you think republicans are going to put in a good faith effort into making it possible to get an ID with "reasonable" effort? Just look at georgias last governor election. the guy running the election and striking people off the rolls (that just happened to be from areas that he was not popular in) was one of the people who was in the election. did that guy get any flack from his party for this insane conflict of interest? No, he was elected and served his whole term.
So when we say that voter ID is racist we do know what it'll be used for in the south/ any state controlled by republicans.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
