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On June 22 2022 23:56 Sermokala wrote:
That would be a great compromise that we could all accept.
Do you think republicans are going to put in a good faith effort into making it possible to get an ID with "reasonable" effort? Just look at georgias last governor election. the guy running the election and striking people off the rolls (that just happened to be from areas that he was not popular in) was one of the people who was in the election. did that guy get any flack from his party for this insane conflict of interest? No, he was elected and served his whole term.
So when we say that voter ID is racist we do know what it'll be used for in the south/ any state controlled by republicans.
Yeah, i think this is simple to solve. Do the ID thing first. Make it very easy for everyone to get an ID. Have the republicans prove that they can do that in their states.
Then have voter ID laws once everyone has got one.
But of course, republicans will not do that, because they couldn't give a fuck about voter ID. What they care about is another avenue to prevent people who don't vote for them from voting. This is the core problem i have with american politics, but the republicans especially. It is all fucking smokescreens.
They don't care about any of the things they claim to care about, be it voter ID, states rights, the constitution, or whatever else. It is always a smokescreen for the thing they actually want, but which they cannot say out loud.
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On June 22 2022 23:53 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 14:27 KwarK wrote:On June 22 2022 14:20 Taelshin wrote:
@kwark I'm fairly certain 90+% of western countries and likely higher then that and likely a huge % of the world requires an ID to vote, this is such a silly argument I literally cannot abide it. Getting an ID is not rocket appliances lets try to get a grip here. Yeah, the US is a special snowflake here in terms of just how much they hate minorities and the poor. Both historically and today. Things that are fine elsewhere aren’t always fine in the US. It’d be nice if that wasn’t the case but wishing things were better doesn’t actually change the world. Voter ID is a no brainer to me (and i am considered left wing according to us standards). How else could you make sure that elections are fair. If people can vote without even having to show an identification. If getting an ID is a big problem for many americans then that is the problem that should be adressed. Instead of accepting that fact and make adjustments elsewhere in society. So that you do not need an ID for activities that you would need an ID for in virtually any other western nation. Making getting an ID easier would help certain minorities and the poor way more then making it possible to vote without ID. You do need an ID for many different economic activities,like opening a bank account. Instead of focussing on not needing an ID to vote the democrats should focus on making it possible for everyone to get an ID with some reasonable effort. They have their priorities wrong and the motive for that is 100% electoral not ideological. Maybe democrats and republicans can strike a compromise (compromise=both sides give something and both sides get something). Where you will need an ID to vote and where it is also possible to get an ID with reasonable effort. You would need control of state legislation to ensure everyone can get a voter ID. Since the countries looking to disenfranchise voters tend to not be Democrat controlled, it doesn't matter what Democrats do or do not want. They have no way of getting it done.
And compromise is great, but there is no compromising with the current Republican party, as they have proven repeatedly.
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Republicans would cry havoc over the federal government having any hand in anything relating to elections. Because the process of doing administrative work for an election is, apparently, a subjective phenomenon, and every state needs a unique solution to the problem of taking and counting votes.
Shit's hard, y'all.
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United States42778 Posts
On June 22 2022 23:53 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 14:27 KwarK wrote:On June 22 2022 14:20 Taelshin wrote:
@kwark I'm fairly certain 90+% of western countries and likely higher then that and likely a huge % of the world requires an ID to vote, this is such a silly argument I literally cannot abide it. Getting an ID is not rocket appliances lets try to get a grip here. Yeah, the US is a special snowflake here in terms of just how much they hate minorities and the poor. Both historically and today. Things that are fine elsewhere aren’t always fine in the US. It’d be nice if that wasn’t the case but wishing things were better doesn’t actually change the world. Voter ID is a no brainer to me (and i am considered left wing according to us standards). How else could you make sure that elections are fair. If people can vote without even having to show an identification. If getting an ID is a big problem for many americans then that is the problem that should be adressed. Instead of accepting that fact and make adjustments elsewhere in society. So that you do not need an ID for activities that you would need an ID for in virtually any other western nation. Making getting an ID easier would help certain minorities and the poor way more then making it possible to vote without ID. You do need an ID for many different economic activities,like opening a bank account. Instead of focussing on not needing an ID to vote the democrats should focus on making it possible for everyone to get an ID with some reasonable effort. They have their priorities wrong and the motive for that is 100% electoral not ideological. Maybe democrats and republicans can strike a compromise (compromise=both sides give something and both sides get something). Where you will need an ID to vote and where it is also possible to get an ID with reasonable effort.
To do this in a way that would decrease the number of illegitimate votes without illegitimately decreasing the number of legitimate voters by a far greater amount would essentially require first fixing poverty. Please fix poverty and get back to us when you’re done. Any plan to do it without first fixing poverty is a plan to disenfranchise the poor.
Also we’re not letting them vote without IDs because we think that voting helps them more than having IDs. Having IDs would be way more helpful to the homeless who struggle to access services intended to help them without proof of residency etc. from utility bills. We’re letting them vote because the constitution says they’re allowed to. It’s not Democrat policy to allow the poor to vote, it’s lower case d democratic to allow the poor to vote. The Democrats are just opposing the latest in a very long line of attempts by Republicans to prevent people they don’t like from voting.
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On June 23 2022 00:11 JimmiC wrote:
Can biden do a federal ID by EO? Republicans likely would not accept them since their goal had been proven to have nothing to do with fair elections.
It is crazy to me that so mamy americans can support a party thay openly ignores democracy.
Federal ID requirements were passed by legislation in 2005 already. The problem is implementation.
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Create a federal ID , one which is issued by a federal organization and that legally counts as an ID in every state. That way you dont have to deal with individual states or citys.
Not to replace other ID,s but on top of it as an extra option.
This is not rocket science or something like universal healthcare. Its just an ID,why does this have to be so difficult?
Edit:i see now others did mention federal ID already when i was creating this post. Apearently there is something there for over 1 decade but the problem is implementation?
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On June 23 2022 00:24 pmh wrote:
Create a federal ID , one which is issued by a federal organization and that legally counts as an ID in every state. That way you dont have to deal with individual states or citys.
Not to replace other ID,s but on top of it as an extra option.
This is not rocket science or something like universal healthcare. Its just an ID,why does this have to be so difficult?
Edit:i see now others did mention federal ID already when i was creating this post. Apearently there is something there for over 1 decade but the problem is implementation?
A federal ID itself would be against the constitution (the tenth amendment says that power is owned by the states). The Real ID Act (which is what I said passed in 2005) is a standardization of driver's licenses issued by the states. Real ID goes into effect next year unless it is pushed back again and you'll be unable to fly without one.
The original deadline was 2008 and it has been pushed back over and over again.
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United States42778 Posts
On June 23 2022 00:24 pmh wrote:
Create a federal ID , one which is issued by a federal organization and that legally counts as an ID in every state. That way you dont have to deal with individual states or citys.
Not to replace other ID,s but on top of it as an extra option.
This is not rocket science or something like universal healthcare. Its just an ID,why does this have to be so difficult?
Because life is harder than that. Again, as an immigrant the DMV demanded I produce certified translations of my British documents to get an ID. Address is typically established by bank statements but 20% of citizens don’t have bank accounts and instead use prepaid cards and check cashing services. Lots of Americans don’t speak English as a first language. Lots of Americans live in areas where the places that would give out the IDs aren’t, public services aren’t equally easy to access, especially for the poor.
You can demand that it be done easily but that won’t make it so. Nobody here disagrees with your proposal of magical universal free IDs, the disagreement is over whether we should disenfranchise the poor in the name of magic.
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On June 23 2022 00:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2022 00:24 pmh wrote:
Create a federal ID , one which is issued by a federal organization and that legally counts as an ID in every state. That way you dont have to deal with individual states or citys.
Not to replace other ID,s but on top of it as an extra option.
This is not rocket science or something like universal healthcare. Its just an ID,why does this have to be so difficult? Because life is harder than that. Again, as an immigrant the DMV demanded I produce certified translations of my British documents to get an ID. Address is typically established by bank statements but 20% of citizens don’t have bank accounts and instead use prepaid cards and check cashing services. Lots of Americans don’t speak English as a first language. Lots of Americans live in areas where the places that would give out the IDs aren’t, public services aren’t equally easy to access, especially for the poor. You can demand that it be done easily but that won’t make it so. Nobody here disagrees with your proposal of magical universal free IDs, the disagreement is over whether we should disenfranchise the poor in the name of magic.
I'd piggy back on this comment just to mention that opening a bank account in the US requires two forms of ID already to be in compliance with the patriot act. Opening a bank account is already more troublesome than voting.
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I wouldn’t mind voter ID laws if the census was responsible for making sure everyone had an ID card. If the number of cards issued matches the numbers they estimate, I’m on board. But I see the country’s job as making sure there are as many voters as humanly possible. I would fully support mandatory voting.
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On June 23 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:
I wouldn’t mind voter ID laws if the census was responsible for making sure everyone had an ID card. If the number of cards issued matches the numbers they estimate, I’m on board. But I see the country’s job as making sure there are as many voters as humanly possible. I would fully support mandatory voting.
I don't know if "as many voters as possible" is necessary the goal. I do agree that it should be as easy as possible to vote.
In that regard, mandatory voting in the US would be silly, because there are still a lot of less aggressive tactics to get more people to vote by making it easier. For example:
Have election day be a national holiday where no one has to work. Or at least a fucking sunday.
Have enough polling stations so that everyone can vote without waiting more than 10 minutes or travelling more than 2-4km (except in rural areas).
Make voting by mail generally easily available.
Have a voter roll where everyone is automatically enrolled, and send them mail that tells them when and where to vote.
Mandatory voting is something that you can start talking about when voting is easy and people still don't vote. But if voting is not easy, it is absurd.
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If you require a social security card to get an ID that permits voting, that's a problem for people who don't have the necessary documents. To get a replacement social security card, you need a passport or proof of ID and a birth certificate. To get a replacement birth certificate you need photo ID. To get a passport, you need proof of citizenship and photo ID.
This is about as far down this rabbit hole as I'm willing to research, but also, not all of these documents can be acquired for free. If you lost everything in a fire, or never had them because your parents lost them, or any other reason, you can probably expect to spend tens of hours and at least $50 (probably more like $100) on getting the documentation needed. This is functionally a poll tax that inhibits poor people from voting.
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On June 22 2022 19:57 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 19:39 gobbledydook wrote:On June 22 2022 19:25 Sadist wrote:On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president. This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit. Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty. We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society. This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively had faith. It is precisely this corrosive attitude on both sides about treating the other side as enemies to be destroyed by any means rather than fellow Americans with a different opinion, which makes simple issues so hard to solve. As much as you wish your enemies to not exist, they won't just disappear tomorrow, so you either gotta live with it or get out of there. 'lets just get along' becomes kind of hard when one side organised a literal armed insurrection with the intent of overthrowing the government and installing their own. This is not just a difference of opinion.
This attitude can only lead to civil war, no matter who is right or wrong. Because if the other side is the enemy, the ultimate conclusion is to defeat them by force. As an outsider I can only sincerely hope it does not come to this.
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On June 23 2022 02:11 Kyadytim wrote:
If you require a social security card to get an ID that permits voting, that's a problem for people who don't have the necessary documents. To get a replacement social security card, you need a passport or proof of ID and a birth certificate. To get a replacement birth certificate you need photo ID. To get a passport, you need proof of citizenship and photo ID.
This is about as far down this rabbit hole as I'm willing to research, but also, not all of these documents can be acquired for free. If you lost everything in a fire, or never had them because your parents lost them, or any other reason, you can probably expect to spend tens of hours and at least $50 (probably more like $100) on getting the documentation needed. This is functionally a poll tax that inhibits poor people from voting.
Yet people routinely use IDs to buy alcohol.
It's not an issue of access. It's a matter of will.
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On June 23 2022 01:58 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:
I wouldn’t mind voter ID laws if the census was responsible for making sure everyone had an ID card. If the number of cards issued matches the numbers they estimate, I’m on board. But I see the country’s job as making sure there are as many voters as humanly possible. I would fully support mandatory voting. I don't know if "as many voters as possible" is necessary the goal. I do agree that it should be as easy as possible to vote. In that regard, mandatory voting in the US would be silly, because there are still a lot of less aggressive tactics to get more people to vote by making it easier. For example: Have election day be a national holiday where no one has to work. Or at least a fucking sunday. Have enough polling stations so that everyone can vote without waiting more than 10 minutes or travelling more than 2-4km (except in rural areas). Make voting by mail generally easily available. Have a voter roll where everyone is automatically enrolled, and send them mail that tells them when and where to vote. Mandatory voting is something that you can start talking about when voting is easy and people still don't vote. But if voting is not easy, it is absurd.
I think first and foremost, politicians should not be allowed to set their own electorate boundaries.
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On June 23 2022 02:59 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 19:57 Gorsameth wrote:On June 22 2022 19:39 gobbledydook wrote:On June 22 2022 19:25 Sadist wrote:On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president. This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit. Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty. We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society. This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively had faith. It is precisely this corrosive attitude on both sides about treating the other side as enemies to be destroyed by any means rather than fellow Americans with a different opinion, which makes simple issues so hard to solve. As much as you wish your enemies to not exist, they won't just disappear tomorrow, so you either gotta live with it or get out of there. 'lets just get along' becomes kind of hard when one side organised a literal armed insurrection with the intent of overthrowing the government and installing their own. This is not just a difference of opinion. This attitude can only lead to civil war, no matter who is right or wrong. Because if the other side is the enemy, the ultimate conclusion is to defeat them by force. As an outsider I can only sincerely hope it does not come to this. an armed mob charged Capitol with the aims of overthrowing the government.
As far as the more zealous/insane of the Republican party are concerned they are already in a civil war.
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On June 23 2022 03:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2022 02:59 gobbledydook wrote:On June 22 2022 19:57 Gorsameth wrote:On June 22 2022 19:39 gobbledydook wrote:On June 22 2022 19:25 Sadist wrote:On June 22 2022 13:04 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 12:22 WombaT wrote:On June 22 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:On June 22 2022 11:45 WombaT wrote:
It’s total, total nonsense at best, irresponsible and dangerous at worst to perpetuate this nonsense, as we’ve already seen.
How’s about, if fraud is such a concern, voter IDs come in, free for all eligible voters.
No? Oh you don’t want to secure elections while making it as easy as possible to vote? Hm wonder why that is…
From a personal perspective it’s a damn shame that it’s the current incarnation of the GOP that’s had success in delegitimising faith in various institution and not some comparable leftist movement, god they have a really entrenched captive audience.
Of all the people to harbour thoughts of Revolution it’s THAT lot? Think I've said this before but every state that requires voter ID also provides it for free. Obviously you have to provide a few things on your end or it would be pointless. But it is free. At least that was the case last time I checked. And more and more the analysis is showing that voter ID laws don't reduce turnout, which we kinda already had an inkling of anyways. "Jim Crow 2.0" in Georgia turned out to be nothing of the kind. As for your last comment the institutions have discredited themselves. People are just finally paying attention. + Show Spoiler +Note: not an endorsement of stolen election rhetoric. Paying attention how? Believing in errant nonsense in lieu of trusting flawed institutions isn’t exactly an upgrade. It’s a complex, flawed world we live in but throwing the baby out with the bath water and going with a ‘Play your own reality’ book isn’t a great solution. Nonetheless yes you are correct, I don’t actually have any particular issue with voter ID laws provided they’re easy to obtain. Plenty of places do this with no disenfranchisement, indeed generally higher turnouts. Maybe I’ve missed it, if ‘the Steal’ was a legitimately held belief and I was a legislator, I’d be pushing my party, and indeed across the aisle to institute changes that prevent such an eventuality. Instead they seem to be rather doubling down on the rhetoric with sweet fanny Adam’s on the former front. Pretty much everything from the presidency, to the Congress, the educational system, even the health profession, they are beclowning themselves. by the way, Joe's Biden absurd claims about the Georgia ID law and how it was going to suppress votes (and the subtext there that elections there will not be legitimate) is of the same variety as "stop the steal." So I'm not interested in high ground arguments. In the PA gov primary, the top Democrat candidate (now their nominee) ran ads for the "stop the steal" guy in the GOP primary because he wanted to run against him (and will get his wish!). So I know even Democrat politicians don't believe their own rhetoric. (they tried to do something similar in a congressional primary but that guy just lost today). So disagree or not, we can already see from primary results that stolen election rhetoric doesn't actually mean that much to GOP voters. "Stop the steal" types are losing way, way more than they are winning (but there are exceptions). As a poll question you may get GOP voter saying it's not legit for years, but that's not new for either party, it just varies in form. The January 6th protest is just a in-your-face-version. I'd have to check but I wonder how many people here were hoping the electoral college would invalidate Trump's 2016 win? Remember there was a big push and we had more faithless electors than just about any other election in history. Yet that campaign had the same chance of success as the riot. The Electoral Count act may actually be fixed to make sure there is no ambiguity about the VP's role, either (that legislation has been on thin ice because Democrats wanted to push their whole election agenda into it). So regardless of poll questions, or silly things some activists manage the get into party platforms, those are not the issues driving voters and Trump's influence is waning. I hope it's gone by the time he might try to run again, but it is weakening. So from my perspective the silliness of the the stolen election debate is not the most pressing issue facing Americans. It's just what Democrats want to focus on because Biden sucks and is unpopular and they don't have jack squat to run on in congress, so they might as well do this. tl:dr stop the steal is not a strong animating force in GOP politics (with exceptions) and unlike Democrats after 2016, pretty much no elected Republicans are basing their criticism of Joe Biden on him being illegitimate. Just that he's a terrible president. This is such BS. Republicans are attacking our democracy with lies everyday and they directly led to Jan 6th yet you have the audacity to say its not a pressing issue and a distraction? What scum of the earth bad faith bull shit. Anyone involved in the Jan 6th incident who was in government should be looking at the death penalty. Any civilian who entered the capitol with any type of weapon should be looking at the death penalty. We need to stop playing games with these nutjobs. They dont deserve to be members of our society. This thread is exhausting. We will never see eye to eye as long as your ilk operate in exclusively had faith. It is precisely this corrosive attitude on both sides about treating the other side as enemies to be destroyed by any means rather than fellow Americans with a different opinion, which makes simple issues so hard to solve. As much as you wish your enemies to not exist, they won't just disappear tomorrow, so you either gotta live with it or get out of there. 'lets just get along' becomes kind of hard when one side organised a literal armed insurrection with the intent of overthrowing the government and installing their own. This is not just a difference of opinion. This attitude can only lead to civil war, no matter who is right or wrong. Because if the other side is the enemy, the ultimate conclusion is to defeat them by force. As an outsider I can only sincerely hope it does not come to this. an armed mob charged Capitol with the aims of overthrowing the government. As far as the more zealous/insane of the Republican party are concerned they are already in a civil war.
Moreover, the Texas GOP actively wants Texas to secede from the Union, which is literally the kind of act that began the Civil War. If foreign observers are concerned about another civil war in the US, the folks pointing this shit out are not the ones they should be talking to lol, this "maybe you should try to find common ground with people pushing for secession and insurrection" schtick is nonsense.
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Yeah, I haven't ticked 30 yet and I'd say I get carded less than half the time. Hasn't happened recently. So it's a pretty porous membrane, that. Whereas I imagine poll workers probably wouldn't start just waving people through if they looked old enough. You're trying to verify more than the person's age, in the case of validating voter ID. You kinda need to see it to know.
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EPT
