|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On May 04 2022 23:43 dp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 12:06 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. I would like to see the statistics you're citing. I also want to point out that sex ed was not the only thing mentioned in Jimmi's post, but also increased access to birth control. I tend to think both would substantially increase the feeling of empowerment among people with a uterus, when it comes to making their own healthcare decisions. CDC 2019 Abortion. 0-19 accounted for 8.8% of total abortions. According to www.guttmacher.org about half of adolescents received the minimum standard of sex ed, with over 90% receiving instruction on STIs. Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 12:12 Dknight wrote:
Comprehensive sex education without a doubt reduces abortions as JimmiC argues. Sex education reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies which results in fewer abortions which also has other important public health benefits (e.g., reduction in STIs, safer sex). That is not what JimmiC argues. Reread what he wrote and my objection. It's pretty straight forward. Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 13:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. Not only are you wrong with regards to sex education, but you've conveniently ignored the fact that contraception can easily be 95-99% effective at preventing pregnancy, which means an enormous amount of abortions would be prevented. Ignoring your comment about sex ed, which I didn't expand on beyond that it's effectiveness would not change that the overall numbers are too small to accomplish what he purports, let's get to contraception. It is readily available to the VASSSST majority looking to use it. 91% of abortions are in the 20 and above age range, all of which have the ability to get contraception. Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 13:35 Simberto wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. What age range do you think is influenced by education? Because it is all of the ages past the point you have had the education. If i learn to write letters in 1st grade, i am influenced by that from the age of 6 to the age i die. That is how education works. It stays with you. Unrelated, i like to think about the question "What would happen if men were the ones getting pregnant? Especially old men?" My guess is if that were the case, it would not take long for abortion to be legally available for everyone, probably free. If you are 20 years and above and have no additional information gained in regards to sex and protection since you learned about it for a month in health class for 45 mins a day in 9th grade, I assume you went into a coma immediately after and have just come out of it. Much like what you learned in 1st grade was not the end of your education in those subjects. I don't know why people need others to defy all reasonable logic to make a case.
If you think the people who live in areas with abstinence-only education get better education outside of school, then i got a bridge to sell to you.
I don't even know what exactly your point is here. School education is one of the few ways to actually get good information to all of the population (well, unless they are homeschooled, which somehow is a thing in the US). We have an institution which is literally designed to give education to people. Why would we not use that institution to give education to people?
What i learned in 1st grade is not all there is to know. But the later stuff builds on top of that. By giving children the necessary baselines early on, you improve and enable everything they learn thereafter.
Also, do you seriously have sex ed in 9th grade? And only 45 minutes? That sounds like your sex ed already sucks.
|
|
|
On May 04 2022 23:54 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 23:43 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 12:06 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. I would like to see the statistics you're citing. I also want to point out that sex ed was not the only thing mentioned in Jimmi's post, but also increased access to birth control. I tend to think both would substantially increase the feeling of empowerment among people with a uterus, when it comes to making their own healthcare decisions. CDC 2019 Abortion. 0-19 accounted for 8.8% of total abortions. According to www.guttmacher.org about half of adolescents received the minimum standard of sex ed, with over 90% receiving instruction on STIs. On May 04 2022 12:12 Dknight wrote:
Comprehensive sex education without a doubt reduces abortions as JimmiC argues. Sex education reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies which results in fewer abortions which also has other important public health benefits (e.g., reduction in STIs, safer sex). That is not what JimmiC argues. Reread what he wrote and my objection. It's pretty straight forward. On May 04 2022 13:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. Not only are you wrong with regards to sex education, but you've conveniently ignored the fact that contraception can easily be 95-99% effective at preventing pregnancy, which means an enormous amount of abortions would be prevented. Ignoring your comment about sex ed, which I didn't expand on beyond that it's effectiveness would not change that the overall numbers are too small to accomplish what he purports, let's get to contraception. It is readily available to the VASSSST majority looking to use it. 91% of abortions are in the 20 and above age range, all of which have the ability to get contraception. On May 04 2022 13:35 Simberto wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. What age range do you think is influenced by education? Because it is all of the ages past the point you have had the education. If i learn to write letters in 1st grade, i am influenced by that from the age of 6 to the age i die. That is how education works. It stays with you. Unrelated, i like to think about the question "What would happen if men were the ones getting pregnant? Especially old men?" My guess is if that were the case, it would not take long for abortion to be legally available for everyone, probably free. If you are 20 years and above and have no additional information gained in regards to sex and protection since you learned about it for a month in health class for 45 mins a day in 9th grade, I assume you went into a coma immediately after and have just come out of it. Much like what you learned in 1st grade was not the end of your education in those subjects. I don't know why people need others to defy all reasonable logic to make a case. If you think the people who live in areas with abstinence-only education get better education outside of school, then i got a bridge to sell to you. I don't even know what exactly your point is here. School education is one of the few ways to actually get good information to all of the population (well, unless they are homeschooled, which somehow is a thing in the US). We have an institution which is literally designed to give education to people. Why would we not use that institution to give education to people? What i learned in 1st grade is not all there is to know. But the later stuff builds on top of that. By giving children the necessary baselines early on, you improve and enable everything they learn thereafter. Also, do you seriously have sex ed in 9th grade? And only 45 minutes? That sounds like your sex ed already sucks.
Thats not too far off what what we had in my area, like one or two classes in 9th grade for ~an hour long, and then another one or two classes in 11th grade for ~an hour long, and often these classes also included safe driving and drug stuff too, so hardly focused.
|
On May 04 2022 23:54 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 23:43 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 12:06 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. I would like to see the statistics you're citing. I also want to point out that sex ed was not the only thing mentioned in Jimmi's post, but also increased access to birth control. I tend to think both would substantially increase the feeling of empowerment among people with a uterus, when it comes to making their own healthcare decisions. CDC 2019 Abortion. 0-19 accounted for 8.8% of total abortions. According to www.guttmacher.org about half of adolescents received the minimum standard of sex ed, with over 90% receiving instruction on STIs. On May 04 2022 12:12 Dknight wrote:
Comprehensive sex education without a doubt reduces abortions as JimmiC argues. Sex education reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies which results in fewer abortions which also has other important public health benefits (e.g., reduction in STIs, safer sex). That is not what JimmiC argues. Reread what he wrote and my objection. It's pretty straight forward. On May 04 2022 13:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. Not only are you wrong with regards to sex education, but you've conveniently ignored the fact that contraception can easily be 95-99% effective at preventing pregnancy, which means an enormous amount of abortions would be prevented. Ignoring your comment about sex ed, which I didn't expand on beyond that it's effectiveness would not change that the overall numbers are too small to accomplish what he purports, let's get to contraception. It is readily available to the VASSSST majority looking to use it. 91% of abortions are in the 20 and above age range, all of which have the ability to get contraception. On May 04 2022 13:35 Simberto wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. What age range do you think is influenced by education? Because it is all of the ages past the point you have had the education. If i learn to write letters in 1st grade, i am influenced by that from the age of 6 to the age i die. That is how education works. It stays with you. Unrelated, i like to think about the question "What would happen if men were the ones getting pregnant? Especially old men?" My guess is if that were the case, it would not take long for abortion to be legally available for everyone, probably free. If you are 20 years and above and have no additional information gained in regards to sex and protection since you learned about it for a month in health class for 45 mins a day in 9th grade, I assume you went into a coma immediately after and have just come out of it. Much like what you learned in 1st grade was not the end of your education in those subjects. I don't know why people need others to defy all reasonable logic to make a case. If you think the people who live in areas with abstinence-only education get better education outside of school, then i got a bridge to sell to you. I don't even know what exactly your point is here. School education is one of the few ways to actually get good information to all of the population (well, unless they are homeschooled, which somehow is a thing in the US). We have an institution which is literally designed to give education to people. Why would we not use that institution to give education to people? What i learned in 1st grade is not all there is to know. But the later stuff builds on top of that. By giving children the necessary baselines early on, you improve and enable everything they learn thereafter. Also, do you seriously have sex ed in 9th grade? And only 45 minutes? That sounds like your sex ed already sucks.
I think the people that live in areas with abstinence-only education are far more influenced by what they learn outside of school than what is taught inside it in regards to sex. It's why I dislike these simplistic solutions to complex problems that everyone just assumes would make a difference. And yes, even in backwards parts of the countries with poor education in general, let alone sex, people will gain far more knowledge by their 20's than they learned in health class in their teens. If you don't believe that, I can't relate to how you reached that conclusion.
As for sex ed for me, I was pushing forward a minimalistic amount to make the point for those that have the least exposure. I had it in middle school and a couple times in high school, maybe 10 classes in any given year, 45 mins a class or so. Which is really all you can dedicate to the subject if you think about it. Couple a days going over sti's. Couple days going over contraception. More time spent on body parts and their functions. Then a birthing video and you're done.
On May 05 2022 00:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 23:43 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 12:06 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. I would like to see the statistics you're citing. I also want to point out that sex ed was not the only thing mentioned in Jimmi's post, but also increased access to birth control. I tend to think both would substantially increase the feeling of empowerment among people with a uterus, when it comes to making their own healthcare decisions. CDC 2019 Abortion. 0-19 accounted for 8.8% of total abortions. According to www.guttmacher.org about half of adolescents received the minimum standard of sex ed, with over 90% receiving instruction on STIs. On May 04 2022 12:12 Dknight wrote:
Comprehensive sex education without a doubt reduces abortions as JimmiC argues. Sex education reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies which results in fewer abortions which also has other important public health benefits (e.g., reduction in STIs, safer sex). That is not what JimmiC argues. Reread what he wrote and my objection. It's pretty straight forward. On May 04 2022 13:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. Not only are you wrong with regards to sex education, but you've conveniently ignored the fact that contraception can easily be 95-99% effective at preventing pregnancy, which means an enormous amount of abortions would be prevented. Ignoring your comment about sex ed, which I didn't expand on beyond that it's effectiveness would not change that the overall numbers are too small to accomplish what he purports, let's get to contraception. It is readily available to the VASSSST majority looking to use it. 91% of abortions are in the 20 and above age range, all of which have the ability to get contraception. On May 04 2022 13:35 Simberto wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. What age range do you think is influenced by education? Because it is all of the ages past the point you have had the education. If i learn to write letters in 1st grade, i am influenced by that from the age of 6 to the age i die. That is how education works. It stays with you. Unrelated, i like to think about the question "What would happen if men were the ones getting pregnant? Especially old men?" My guess is if that were the case, it would not take long for abortion to be legally available for everyone, probably free. If you are 20 years and above and have no additional information gained in regards to sex and protection since you learned about it for a month in health class for 45 mins a day in 9th grade, I assume you went into a coma immediately after and have just come out of it. Much like what you learned in 1st grade was not the end of your education in those subjects. I don't know why people need others to defy all reasonable logic to make a case. You are a fountain of miss-information and it really helps to make my point better than I ever could. So thank you. My point is what DK thought it was, and also making abortions illegal does not bring them down to 0 we already know this. The poor will get them illegally and the rich will travel for them.
I am glad you concede that what you said is an inaccurate exaggeration and you mainly wanted to say that sex ed could reduce some abortions. As for my miss-information, please point out where it is. It's easy to just throw that out there but being specific would actual be useful if you truly believe that. Heads up though, disagreeing with something does not make it misinformation.
|
|
|
My sex education was relatively brief compared to other subjects, but it was touched on in elementary, middle, and high school, so it was reiterating its importance by repetition. In the absence of that education, I would be left to my own devices, and my parents didn't go through any talks with me. That part of my education stuck with me though.
All to say, you can't claim people just flushed what they learned in sex ed and never retained the information or how important it is. So I don't buy arguments that build off that assumption. You're essentially saying that bad or no sex education has no effect, which last I checked doesn't refute the idea that widespread improvements to sex ed will have an effect.
Honestly, I simply don't understand the claim that improving sex ed will do nothing to reduce abortion. That doesn't pass a basic smell test.
|
United States42497 Posts
It’s not like this hasn’t been studied, measured, and concluded upon. It’s not a debate, people have checked. There aren’t opinions here, there’s a right answer and a wrong one.
|
Just to re-center :
JimmiC speculated that proper sex ed would do more to reduce number of abortions than outlawing abortion.
dp disagreed with this claim
dp specifically mentions that JimmiC's original point could have been better stated as "Sex ed could reduce some abortions"
Just wanted to address that noone (that I've seen!) is claiming that improving sex ed will do nothing to reduce abortion.
|
On May 05 2022 00:40 KwarK wrote:
It’s not like this hasn’t been studied, measured, and concluded upon. It’s not a debate, people have checked. There aren’t opinions here, there’s a right answer and a wrong one.
I just googled a bit, and I only found this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/
Which, while verifying a lot of very helpful effects of sex ed, and definitively showing that sex ed does very good things, could not prove a correlation between sex ed and (teen) abortions.
Do you have some data regarding this specificity?
I think the question that abstinence only sex ed is bad is indeed settled. However, the question if sex ed helps with abortions specifically may not be as clear, at least i couldn't find a study clearly showing this on a casual glance.
|
On May 04 2022 07:34 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 07:21 Introvert wrote:
It's absurd to think that because you oppose killing kids in the womb you have to favor the cradle to grave nanny state to the same extent as your furthest left aquantinance. That obviously doesn't follow but man, rhetorically it feels good to say. If someone can explain to me how providing a right is shoving something down other people's throats, as opposed to the other way around, that'd be swell.
Part of the core of disagreement between conservatives and progressives is that both view the world and society fundamentally different not just on views but dynamics/systems. If something bad is permitted within a conservative's view of their home/culture/society, it is as if they are doing it themselves. There isn't really such a thing as letting people be immoral without it being bad for themselves.
The idea of "you do your thing and I do my thing" is not a real thing for them when it is as a part of a community that they feel they are also a part of. That is why for them it feels like shoving it down their throat. If their neighbor is getting an abortion, and they feel like they are a member of their community, they feel the impact of that moral failing, in their eyes.
Conservatives overall feel community in a different way. Conservatives experience community in more of a glob/single-entity way whereas progressives see it as more of a set of agreements/collectivism. This is why we have lots of examples of conservative communities/circles desperately defending community figures like sheriffs, football coaches and stuff like that. Figures of authority are not a separate part. The figures of authority are a part of each of the individuals within the conservative community. If the local sheriff were beating his wife, it would be bad for the community as a whole to hold him accountable. Overall conservative communities operate a lot more like cults than collectives.
|
|
|
I was being a bit sardonic, but I appreciate the unironic answer. Definitely a different perspective, for sure. And a bit paradoxical coming from the party of "personal responsibility", if everyone else's failings are somehow a reflection on you. Can't say I agree.
|
On May 05 2022 00:30 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2022 00:24 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 23:54 Simberto wrote:On May 04 2022 23:43 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 12:06 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. I would like to see the statistics you're citing. I also want to point out that sex ed was not the only thing mentioned in Jimmi's post, but also increased access to birth control. I tend to think both would substantially increase the feeling of empowerment among people with a uterus, when it comes to making their own healthcare decisions. CDC 2019 Abortion. 0-19 accounted for 8.8% of total abortions. According to www.guttmacher.org about half of adolescents received the minimum standard of sex ed, with over 90% receiving instruction on STIs. On May 04 2022 12:12 Dknight wrote:
Comprehensive sex education without a doubt reduces abortions as JimmiC argues. Sex education reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies which results in fewer abortions which also has other important public health benefits (e.g., reduction in STIs, safer sex). That is not what JimmiC argues. Reread what he wrote and my objection. It's pretty straight forward. On May 04 2022 13:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. Not only are you wrong with regards to sex education, but you've conveniently ignored the fact that contraception can easily be 95-99% effective at preventing pregnancy, which means an enormous amount of abortions would be prevented. Ignoring your comment about sex ed, which I didn't expand on beyond that it's effectiveness would not change that the overall numbers are too small to accomplish what he purports, let's get to contraception. It is readily available to the VASSSST majority looking to use it. 91% of abortions are in the 20 and above age range, all of which have the ability to get contraception. On May 04 2022 13:35 Simberto wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. What age range do you think is influenced by education? Because it is all of the ages past the point you have had the education. If i learn to write letters in 1st grade, i am influenced by that from the age of 6 to the age i die. That is how education works. It stays with you. Unrelated, i like to think about the question "What would happen if men were the ones getting pregnant? Especially old men?" My guess is if that were the case, it would not take long for abortion to be legally available for everyone, probably free. If you are 20 years and above and have no additional information gained in regards to sex and protection since you learned about it for a month in health class for 45 mins a day in 9th grade, I assume you went into a coma immediately after and have just come out of it. Much like what you learned in 1st grade was not the end of your education in those subjects. I don't know why people need others to defy all reasonable logic to make a case. If you think the people who live in areas with abstinence-only education get better education outside of school, then i got a bridge to sell to you. I don't even know what exactly your point is here. School education is one of the few ways to actually get good information to all of the population (well, unless they are homeschooled, which somehow is a thing in the US). We have an institution which is literally designed to give education to people. Why would we not use that institution to give education to people? What i learned in 1st grade is not all there is to know. But the later stuff builds on top of that. By giving children the necessary baselines early on, you improve and enable everything they learn thereafter. Also, do you seriously have sex ed in 9th grade? And only 45 minutes? That sounds like your sex ed already sucks. I think the people that live in areas with abstinence-only education are far more influenced by what they learn outside of school than what is taught inside it in regards to sex. It's why I dislike these simplistic solutions to complex problems that everyone just assumes would make a difference. And yes, even in backwards parts of the countries with poor education in general, let alone sex, people will gain far more knowledge by their 20's than they learned in health class in their teens. If you don't believe that, I can't relate to how you reached that conclusion. As for sex ed for me, I was pushing forward a minimalistic amount to make the point for those that have the least exposure. I had it in middle school and a couple times in high school, maybe 10 classes in any given year, 45 mins a class or so. Which is really all you can dedicate to the subject if you think about it. Couple a days going over sti's. Couple days going over contraception. More time spent on body parts and their functions. Then a birthing video and you're done. On May 05 2022 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On May 04 2022 23:43 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 12:06 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. I would like to see the statistics you're citing. I also want to point out that sex ed was not the only thing mentioned in Jimmi's post, but also increased access to birth control. I tend to think both would substantially increase the feeling of empowerment among people with a uterus, when it comes to making their own healthcare decisions. CDC 2019 Abortion. 0-19 accounted for 8.8% of total abortions. According to www.guttmacher.org about half of adolescents received the minimum standard of sex ed, with over 90% receiving instruction on STIs. On May 04 2022 12:12 Dknight wrote:
Comprehensive sex education without a doubt reduces abortions as JimmiC argues. Sex education reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies which results in fewer abortions which also has other important public health benefits (e.g., reduction in STIs, safer sex). That is not what JimmiC argues. Reread what he wrote and my objection. It's pretty straight forward. On May 04 2022 13:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. Not only are you wrong with regards to sex education, but you've conveniently ignored the fact that contraception can easily be 95-99% effective at preventing pregnancy, which means an enormous amount of abortions would be prevented. Ignoring your comment about sex ed, which I didn't expand on beyond that it's effectiveness would not change that the overall numbers are too small to accomplish what he purports, let's get to contraception. It is readily available to the VASSSST majority looking to use it. 91% of abortions are in the 20 and above age range, all of which have the ability to get contraception. On May 04 2022 13:35 Simberto wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. What age range do you think is influenced by education? Because it is all of the ages past the point you have had the education. If i learn to write letters in 1st grade, i am influenced by that from the age of 6 to the age i die. That is how education works. It stays with you. Unrelated, i like to think about the question "What would happen if men were the ones getting pregnant? Especially old men?" My guess is if that were the case, it would not take long for abortion to be legally available for everyone, probably free. If you are 20 years and above and have no additional information gained in regards to sex and protection since you learned about it for a month in health class for 45 mins a day in 9th grade, I assume you went into a coma immediately after and have just come out of it. Much like what you learned in 1st grade was not the end of your education in those subjects. I don't know why people need others to defy all reasonable logic to make a case. You are a fountain of miss-information and it really helps to make my point better than I ever could. So thank you. My point is what DK thought it was, and also making abortions illegal does not bring them down to 0 we already know this. The poor will get them illegally and the rich will travel for them. I am glad you concede that what you said is an inaccurate exaggeration and you mainly wanted to say that sex ed could reduce some abortions. As for my miss-information, please point out where it is. It's easy to just throw that out there but being specific would actual be useful if you truly believe that. Heads up though, disagreeing with something does not make it misinformation. Nope I clarified that I agreed with what I said and that what you are saying is wrong. edit: for one thing you seem stuck on the false premises outlawing abortion brings the number that happens down to 0, everyone knows that to be false. The other is that sex-education only impacts teens, which we also know is false (contraceptives' work your whole life for example!). There is a bunch of others by why rehash what others have discussed and you have ignored.
Show me where I've stated anything that could even been confused with that underline. It doesn't exist. I simply disagreed with your premise that sex ed would reduce abortions by more than a ban. I stated why statistically I don't believe it possible. Even if sex ed was 100% effective, and over half of adolescents currently receive it with contraception info included, providing it to the other half could only reduce the total by 4.4% in a perfect scenario. You believe a total abortion ban would minimize abortion by less than that?
As for sex educations impact through life, you are going to have to cite something that would convince me. I simply don't believe a 30 year old's sex and contraception use is even vaguely reliant on the sex ed class they took in high school. Infantilizing adults is becoming way too common place, especially when it comes to major life actions and decisions.
|
It's not infantilizing adults to discuss the impact of formative education, directly targeted at the risks and responsibilities that come with sex. That goes with you through life, and can determine whether you learn about STI's in a lecture versus by catching one.
Also, sheer number of abortions is a shitty metric. I know a lot of Christians don't care, but the reason for abortions going down matters even more than the number itself. It's about empowering people to make responsible decisions, and having good practices regarding contraception and safe sex results in less unwanted pregnancies, which reduces trauma, pain, and stress across many strata in that person's life. Forcing someone to carry and unwanted pregnancy to term, and guilting women for seeking healthcare is almost purely destructive, in comparison to teaching people properly and enabling them to care for themselves.
|
|
|
Northern Ireland24965 Posts
Sex Ed isn’t, or at least shouldn’t be purely about the mechanics of contraception and whatnot.
A proper understanding of consent goes a bloody long way too.
I have zero data underpinning it, as per usual but I’d wager a large chunk of unplanned pregnancies come from women lacking the confidence to put their foot down in the face of pressure to go bareback.
With that said, in a vacuum I don’t know how effective sex ed is. I had a pretty perfunctory, one-time class that was pretty fucking inadequate, but myself and my peers come from certain backgrounds and myself aside aren’t idiots.
Whereas you could have a very good program in a completely different cultural context and it could prove pretty ineffective.
I don’t really get the part where you say it’s infantalising adults to give them as many tools as possible, as early as possible to navigate life smoothly. I’d extend that to better financial education.
|
On May 04 2022 23:43 dp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2022 13:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 04 2022 11:27 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 11:18 NewSunshine wrote:On May 04 2022 11:06 dp wrote:On May 04 2022 10:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is probably a case to be made that you could prevent more abortions with proper sex ed and easy access to various forms of birth control than you could by outlawing abortion. And you could drastically reduce STIs as well.
You could make the case, it just wouldn't be a very good one. You could make this argument, it just wouldn't be a very good one. + Show Spoiler + On it's face, it's statistically impossible. Less than 10% of abortions are in the age range that would be most influenced by sex ed. That is before even getting to what effect sex ed has on reduction of abortions. Not only are you wrong with regards to sex education, but you've conveniently ignored the fact that contraception can easily be 95-99% effective at preventing pregnancy, which means an enormous amount of abortions would be prevented. Ignoring your comment about sex ed, which I didn't expand on beyond that it's effectiveness would not change that the overall numbers are too small to accomplish what he purports, let's get to contraception. It is readily available to the VASSSST majority looking to use it. 91% of abortions are in the 20 and above age range, all of which have the ability to get contraception.
I guess we can all accept your apology then, since now you're trying to steal away JimmiC's original point of both sex ed *and* contraception. You don't get to claim contraception now, whether it's for older people or for younger people. JimmiC very clearly included contraception, and you very clearly responded with a dismissal. The opposing side, which you took, was simply banning abortion. Not banning abortion + contraception. Perhaps if you hadn't been so overly eager to make a flippant rejection of JimmiC's original point, you wouldn't need to backpedal.
|
|
|
Norway28631 Posts
Looking at abortion rates by country and comparing with legal state of abortions, it definitely seems like 'outlawing abortions' is more efficient than 'sexual education' if your goal is to limit abortions.
Countries like Sweden have abortion rates rivalling those of the US while presumably having a more progressive stance on stuff like sexual education. Norway has fewer - but the difference between Mexico and Norway is bigger than between Norway and the US.
Conservative people (at least on the face of it) don't want people (at least people that aren't themselves) to have sex outside marriage. Teaching abstinence is stupid for a multitude of reasons, but if you're against people having sex before marriage and against abortions, I don't see the problem with teaching a) don't have sex before marriage and b) be against abortions.
My problem with the position is that I myself wanted to have sex before marriage, and I didn't want a kid before I was ready for one. I don't have any problems at all with early-term abortions, and then they become increasingly iffy at some point as the fetus starts to resemble a baby (I'm on board with a 'is viable outside the womb of the mother' as the actual determiner of whether it should be legal, but from a 'how does this make me feel', I have close to 0 reaction regarding a first trimester abortion, but abort a fetus one day before viability and I'd be inclined to consider it 'somewhat emotionally disturbing' because it really does look a lot like a human baby at that point. As for sex, it's a pretty awesome recreational activity and only doing it when you want to procreate seems kinda.. stupid? Then knowing that even if people use contraceptives, accidental pregnancies still happen, legal abortion is a total no-brainer to me.
However, I don't need to ascribe 'pro-life' people with some sinister or inconsistent world view to explain why they feel the way they feel. They feel differently about fetuses than I do (for whatever reason, seems like it's usually religious, some believe that life begins at conception), and they feel differently about having sex before or outside marriage (presumably also with a religious reasoning). I can disagree with them on both these points, I can state things like 'but abortions will still happen if they're outlawed, just much less safely and much less frequently', I can state 'controlling pregnancies is an essential part of planning your life and women effectively have less ability to plan their lives if they cannot have abortions' - but there's no reason for me to assume that Introvert - or other 'pro-lifers' are actually using abortions as a foil for their actual plan of controlling and subjugating women (even if there are pro-lifers who conveniently realize that opposing abortions can achieve both goals).
Comparably, I can state that I'm positive towards legalizing cannabis, even though I a) don't necessarily want more people to get high and b) knowing that legalization at least in some cases has resulted in a slight increase in use, because I think there are other factors that validate the point of view. Or I can state that 'cars, meat, airplanes and cheap stuff is really awesome' while also wanting some restrictions/cost increases for all four because I believe environmental damage is a much bigger negative threat than what those aforementioned four are positive things. Likewise I believe there are pro-lifers who understand that abortions are hugely convenient, and maybe even beneficial to society in some manner, but who still dislike them because they believe abortion is essentially murder.
tldr it's possible to point out inconsistencies in people's beliefs, or just downright disagreeing with them in what type of society you prefer, without maligning them with nefarious intent.
|
I'm not sure if you're referencing what JimmiC said, but to be clear, it's not sex ed vs. banning abortions.
It's sex ed + using contraception on one side, against merely banning abortions on the other.
While the sex ed might not be as influential as banning abortion, the contraception aspect is definitely more effective. JimmiC's point is valid even before factoring in the sex ed, because of just how much more effective using contraception is than merely banning abortion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
