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My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job.
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On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views.
but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad.
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How is it that conservatives can be so authoritarian and yet seem to place such a high value on personal freedom and liberty? These seem directly at odds.
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On February 03 2022 04:11 Starlightsun wrote:
How is it that conservatives can be so authoritarian and yet seem to place such a high value on personal freedom and liberty? These seem directly at odds. Because they don't value personal freedom as a general idea, but only care about the freedom to do what they want to do.
They want the freedom to discriminate against LBGT, but do not want those same LBGT to have the freedom in what they do in their bedroom between consenting adults.
They want the freedom to decide if they do, or don't take a vaccine during a global pandemic. They want full bodily autonomy.
But not if your a women, then an old white guy gets to decide what happens to your uterus
As soon as your freedom deviates from the views of their authoritarianism that freedom must be stripped.
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war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength
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On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job.
So pressurizing a boss to fire someone because you disagree with their opinion is different from pressurizing voters to "fire" someone because you disagree with their opinion.
It's worth noting that someone like J.K. Rowling won't be cancelled by her publisher because 1 person is upset... but rather that the money they are losing from maintaining relations with her is greater than the money they will make from publishing her books. So in the end you still have to convince a large number of people. Whether that's a voter base or a fan base.
It's worth noting that I don't really believe cancelling is a thing to begin with, but if it is, I don't really see why musicians, reporters, comedians, etc. can be cancelled but politicians cannot.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
"Cancelling" has been a thing for as long as there's been internet hate mobs looking to end someone's career based on (sometimes justified, sometimes not) conjecture. The main difference of the #metoo wave of it is, in my eyes, little more than rebranding to give that particular form of mob justice a name and either credibility (if you're into that kind of thing) or a target to attack (from the right, mostly).
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before the internet cancelling also happened, it just involved people writing angry letters to TV and Radio stations.
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On February 03 2022 04:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views. but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad.
No, cancel culture relies on fear of perceived potential losses to circumvent actual market forces.
If the market decided that Joe Rogan was an idiot not worth listening to and he lost his market share and was no longer worth what he was being paid so he got fired, that would be the free market working.
If instead a bunch of people threaten to boycott Spotify if he’s not removed, they are using fear rather than actual market forces to try to cancel him.
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those aren’t appreciably different from where i’m sitting.
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On February 03 2022 06:01 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 04:10 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views. but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad. No, cancel culture relies on fear of perceived potential losses to circumvent actual market forces. If the market decided that Joe Rogan was an idiot not worth listening to and he lost his market share and was no longer worth what he was being paid so he got fired, that would be the free market working. If instead a bunch of people threaten to boycott Spotify if he’s not removed, they are using fear rather than actual market forces to try to cancel him.
Those are just the same thing but before the follow through
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On February 03 2022 06:28 brian wrote:
those aren’t appreciably different from where i’m sitting.
It's the difference between saying "I don't want this" and "you can't have it either".
On February 03 2022 06:32 IyMoon1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 06:01 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 04:10 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views. but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad. No, cancel culture relies on fear of perceived potential losses to circumvent actual market forces. If the market decided that Joe Rogan was an idiot not worth listening to and he lost his market share and was no longer worth what he was being paid so he got fired, that would be the free market working. If instead a bunch of people threaten to boycott Spotify if he’s not removed, they are using fear rather than actual market forces to try to cancel him. Those are just the same thing but before the follow through
Except that it is a relatively small group purporting to speak for a large group. Their actual direct actions are almost negligible, but by being extremely loud, they can scare companies into cancelling people anyways.
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On February 03 2022 06:32 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 06:28 brian wrote:
those aren’t appreciably different from where i’m sitting. It's the difference between saying "I don't want this" and "you can't have it either". Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 06:32 IyMoon1 wrote:On February 03 2022 06:01 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 04:10 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views. but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad. No, cancel culture relies on fear of perceived potential losses to circumvent actual market forces. If the market decided that Joe Rogan was an idiot not worth listening to and he lost his market share and was no longer worth what he was being paid so he got fired, that would be the free market working. If instead a bunch of people threaten to boycott Spotify if he’s not removed, they are using fear rather than actual market forces to try to cancel him. Those are just the same thing but before the follow through Except that it is a relatively small group purporting to speak for a large group. Their actual direct actions are almost negligible, but by being extremely loud, they can scare companies into cancelling people anyways.
agreed there, but it’s not the difference between a market solution and a non market solution, which is what you were trying to say it was, right?
unless i’ve misunderstood.
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On February 03 2022 05:17 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. So pressurizing a boss to fire someone because you disagree with their opinion is different from pressurizing voters to "fire" someone because you disagree with their opinion.
Very much so. You are trying to define canceling at a more general level than appropriate in order to encompass more activity. Voters are supposed to go to the polls and fire a politician they disagree with, it's how the whole system works.
On February 03 2022 04:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views. but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad.
I agree with Ren and I'll add that conservatives are not saying companies should be denied the freedom to fire people, i.e. they're not saying the government should intervene and stop companies from canceling people. They're just saying the companies and the mobs shouldn't so what they're doing, because of the principles of freedom of thought & expression.
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Cancel culture exists and it is used against marginalized people. I've seen so many cis people weaponize cancel culture against trans people to get us fired, blacklisted, and cut off any support system we have, while they complain about being canceled to major media outlets dozens of times because we told them that they were harming us.
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On a separate note, I'm so tired of conservative commentators only caring about the Holocaust to score points against liberals while they perpetuate anti-Semitism by supporting politicians like MTG and her batshit insane conspiracy theories. It's real fun getting to deal with anti-Semitism firsthand from the GOP and their followers while they pretend to support us. May their names and their memories be erased.
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On February 03 2022 06:36 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 06:32 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 06:28 brian wrote:
those aren’t appreciably different from where i’m sitting. It's the difference between saying "I don't want this" and "you can't have it either". On February 03 2022 06:32 IyMoon1 wrote:On February 03 2022 06:01 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 04:10 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views. but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad. No, cancel culture relies on fear of perceived potential losses to circumvent actual market forces. If the market decided that Joe Rogan was an idiot not worth listening to and he lost his market share and was no longer worth what he was being paid so he got fired, that would be the free market working. If instead a bunch of people threaten to boycott Spotify if he’s not removed, they are using fear rather than actual market forces to try to cancel him. Those are just the same thing but before the follow through Except that it is a relatively small group purporting to speak for a large group. Their actual direct actions are almost negligible, but by being extremely loud, they can scare companies into cancelling people anyways. agreed there, but it’s not the difference between a market solution and a non market solution, which is what you were trying to say it was, right? unless i’ve misunderstood.
I guess they both are "market" solutions. However, one would be free market and the other would be a manipulated market with certain loud voices having an outsized effect.
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On February 03 2022 06:39 plasmidghost wrote:
On a separate note, I'm so tired of conservative commentators only caring about the Holocaust to score points against liberals while they perpetuate anti-Semitism by supporting politicians like MTG and her batshit insane conspiracy theories. It's real fun getting to deal with anti-Semitism firsthand from the GOP and their followers while they pretend to support us. May their names and their memories be erased.
it would be better if both MTG and Omar were not in Congress but it is what it is.
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On February 03 2022 06:42 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 06:36 brian wrote:On February 03 2022 06:32 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 06:28 brian wrote:
those aren’t appreciably different from where i’m sitting. It's the difference between saying "I don't want this" and "you can't have it either". On February 03 2022 06:32 IyMoon1 wrote:On February 03 2022 06:01 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 04:10 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views. but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad. No, cancel culture relies on fear of perceived potential losses to circumvent actual market forces. If the market decided that Joe Rogan was an idiot not worth listening to and he lost his market share and was no longer worth what he was being paid so he got fired, that would be the free market working. If instead a bunch of people threaten to boycott Spotify if he’s not removed, they are using fear rather than actual market forces to try to cancel him. Those are just the same thing but before the follow through Except that it is a relatively small group purporting to speak for a large group. Their actual direct actions are almost negligible, but by being extremely loud, they can scare companies into cancelling people anyways. agreed there, but it’s not the difference between a market solution and a non market solution, which is what you were trying to say it was, right? unless i’ve misunderstood. I guess they both are "market" solutions. However, one would be free market and the other would be a manipulated market with certain loud voices having an outsized effect.
tale as old as time. it’s a modern day sit-in. or just a very traditional boycott.
ok not super traditional boycott, so maybe more like a digital sit-in. i can’t have all my friends sit in and deny the ability for Spotify to serve others. so instead we boycott Spotify entirely over their serving of Joe Rogan.
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On February 03 2022 06:45 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 06:42 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 06:36 brian wrote:On February 03 2022 06:32 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 06:28 brian wrote:
those aren’t appreciably different from where i’m sitting. It's the difference between saying "I don't want this" and "you can't have it either". On February 03 2022 06:32 IyMoon1 wrote:On February 03 2022 06:01 RenSC2 wrote:On February 03 2022 04:10 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2022 04:09 Doc.Rivers wrote:
My understanding of cancelation is that it just doesn't include politicians. The voters make the choice of which politician they want, so they act as a collective and neutral decision maker on who should represent them in office (probably taking many things into account). A cancelation is when someone says something controversial and then gets summarily and immediately fired from their (probably private sector) job. which is also a weird thing for Conservatives to be against. They preach about how the market should be free. 'Cancel culture' is the free market expressing itself that it doesn't accept certain views. but no, when its them getting fired the free market is bad. No, cancel culture relies on fear of perceived potential losses to circumvent actual market forces. If the market decided that Joe Rogan was an idiot not worth listening to and he lost his market share and was no longer worth what he was being paid so he got fired, that would be the free market working. If instead a bunch of people threaten to boycott Spotify if he’s not removed, they are using fear rather than actual market forces to try to cancel him. Those are just the same thing but before the follow through Except that it is a relatively small group purporting to speak for a large group. Their actual direct actions are almost negligible, but by being extremely loud, they can scare companies into cancelling people anyways. agreed there, but it’s not the difference between a market solution and a non market solution, which is what you were trying to say it was, right? unless i’ve misunderstood. I guess they both are "market" solutions. However, one would be free market and the other would be a manipulated market with certain loud voices having an outsized effect. tale as old as time. it’s a modern day sit-in. or just a very traditional boycott. ok not super traditional boycott, so maybe more like a digital sit-in. i can’t have all my friends sit in and deny the ability for Spotify to serve others. so instead we boycott Spotify entirely over their serving of Joe Rogan.
There is a difference. Sitting in involves physical effort. Sending a tweet is a few seconds of typing. So it is much easier to create outrage and cancel someone now.
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EPT
