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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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United States43968 Posts
On January 08 2022 06:26 LegalLord wrote:
…No True Conservative?
If someone told you that anyone British but not English was Scottish you’d be correct in pointing out that the people of Wales are no true Scotsmen.
Conservatives are Conservatives. It’s a thing.
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Northern Ireland26762 Posts
On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays.
I’m not sure the popularity/otherwise of eugenics has shifted all that much. Nor if agreeing with some degree of eugenics can be pigeonholed on the left/right axis particularly easily.
It fell out of favour as much because ‘that’s not how genetics work’ as much as anything else right?
Of course it was applied in absolutely abhorrent ways, I can’t see a return to what we saw in the 20th century.
But I could see plenty of support for it, if it worked. Especially given rather dubious beliefs of racial genetic disparities are still commonly held.
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On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while.
This is a US politics thread, so yes, I meant the US. I understand that I did a bad job at framing my thoughts the first post I made but I feel like I have done an ok job at clarifying. You are focusing on an idea that no one holds. No one here is saying every idea a progressive person has ever suggested has been on the right side of history.
A good modern example of a "progressive" policy that was forced to eat shit and die was the term "Latinx". A bunch of dumb shit heads on Twitter tried to use linguistic impersialism to rewrite Spanish and failed miserably. There was a lot of push back and they are back tracking. This is a great example of what you are describing. Sometimes idiots who identify as progressive will make up some stupid shit, it gets a little bit of traction, but ultimately everyone ends up saying "you're a fucking idiot" and we move on. Latinx is my favorite example. Stupid, awful, putrid, misguided linguistic imperialism.
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Northern Ireland26762 Posts
On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while.
In what form?
Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy.
I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality.
Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform
You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed.
Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings.
They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO
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On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO Conservatives are not 'pro-paedophilia' but as Kwark puts it conservatives care more about protecting the social hierarchy and institutions than individual rights and if those those hierarchies and institutions engage in immoral acts (like paedophilia) then they will more easily look the other way to preserve said hierarchy/institution.
See for example the catholic church.
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On January 08 2022 08:55 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don’t think it’s reductionist.
Are Africans people or cattle? - lost
Should black people be able to vote? - lost
Should women be able to vote? - lost
Interracial marriage - lost
Gay marriage - lost
Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO Conservatives are not 'pro-paedophilia' but as Kwark puts it Show nested quote +conservatives care more about protecting the social hierarchy and institutions than individual rights and if those those hierarchies and institutions engage in immoral acts (like paedophilia) then they will more easily look the other way to preserve said hierarchy/institution. See for example the catholic church.
KwarK did describe pedophilia as a "decidedly conservative thing," although I guess he was trying to draw an inference from this catholic church thing. But really, any attempt to describe pedophilia as more strongly associated with conservatives is just absurd on its face. I mean there comes a point where one's political bias and partisan loyalty should be reigned in. Pedophilia flourishes where adults are in positions of authority and in frequent contact with children, teaching positions being an example.
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On January 08 2022 07:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. This is a US politics thread, so yes, I meant the US. I understand that I did a bad job at framing my thoughts the first post I made but I feel like I have done an ok job at clarifying. You are focusing on an idea that no one holds. No one here is saying every idea a progressive person has ever suggested has been on the right side of history. A good modern example of a "progressive" policy that was forced to eat shit and die was the term "Latinx". A bunch of dumb shit heads on Twitter tried to use linguistic impersialism to rewrite Spanish and failed miserably. There was a lot of push back and they are back tracking. This is a great example of what you are describing. Sometimes idiots who identify as progressive will make up some stupid shit, it gets a little bit of traction, but ultimately everyone ends up saying "you're a fucking idiot" and we move on. Latinx is my favorite example. Stupid, awful, putrid, misguided linguistic imperialism.
This thread is often used for discussions on issues not exclusive to the US. I genuinely thought you weren't talking specifically about the US, as did a few other people. I thought you made a general observation about social conservatism as such. Perhaps within the context of the US you are right.
Many of the progressive ideas I mentioned never caught on in the US, communism being the prime example. It's debatable whether that can be labeled as losing. I'd say it's a bit of an unfair comparison as the conservative position is the status quo. It loses by dwindling in popularity. Progressive ideas start small and have to gain traction to become popular.
On January 08 2022 05:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. Communism vs capitalism is another example of you misplacing the conservative belief. Conservatives are protectionist, pro intervention in the markets, and consistently opposed to any form of individual liberty. They are desperate to regulate speech, political affiliation, and so forth. In most conservative controlled US states it is not legal to not do business with Israel, for example. You are confusing neoliberals with conservatives when they are two opposing forces. Conservatives despise neoliberals. Neoliberals are the capitalists (as opposed to socialists). Conservatives prefer state control. Where you’re going wrong is assuming that everything that isn’t socially progressive and economically socialist is conservative. It’s more complicated than that. Conservatism is a specific thing that is mostly centred on propping up existing social hierarchies. They’ll support pedophiles if they’re part of the elite (hell, Trump is on record bragging about the girls on Epstein island). They’ll play favourites in the economy. They’ll arrest people for their political opinions, they’ll censor the media, they’ll overturn elections, they don’t give a fuck as long as it supports the elites.
As I pointed out above, I didn't realize we were talking specifically about the US, but rather actual social conservatism as an idea/ideology. In the context of American politics, I tend to agree with your assessment of the Republican Party, but in my opinion they have very little to do with genuine conservatism outside of people like Mitt Romney or various religious fundamentalists. The Republican Party has no real values. It represents the self-serving class of the rich people. They're wearing a nominally conservative mask in the US. In the Soviet Union they were known as the nomenklatura and wore a progressive mask for a long time.
As for communism vs. capitalism, I'd have to disagree. At its core, the debate is about who should control the means of production. The status quo for thousands of years was that they should be private property. Communism argues that they should be a common good.
On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO
I was talking about the German Green Party from a few decades ago. I linked an article in my earlier post.
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On January 08 2022 07:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. This is a US politics thread, so yes, I meant the US. I understand that I did a bad job at framing my thoughts the first post I made but I feel like I have done an ok job at clarifying. You are focusing on an idea that no one holds. No one here is saying every idea a progressive person has ever suggested has been on the right side of history.
It's not clear what you are saying at this point. The first post appears to be, conservatives will lose this fight (which one? Trumpism? Common perception of Jan 6?) because historically they always lose. But the following posts appear to be an unclear degree of walking back that claim given that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny in the strong form that it was presented. So at this point I am not clear on:
1. Who exactly are "conservatives" in your definition?
2. Under what conditions do they "always lose"?
3. Which modern conservative viewpoint is impacted by (1) and (2) in a way that makes it an inevitable losing battle?
It's not clear that there's an answer to that that isn't either trivially true (i.e. the world changes = the people who want things to stay the same won't get exactly what they want) or demonstrably wrong. It seems more like (1) and (2) are dynamically redefined to make the statement true in a way that is retroactively consistent but with zero predictive power.
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On January 08 2022 09:59 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 07:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don’t think it’s reductionist.
Are Africans people or cattle? - lost
Should black people be able to vote? - lost
Should women be able to vote? - lost
Interracial marriage - lost
Gay marriage - lost
Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. This is a US politics thread, so yes, I meant the US. I understand that I did a bad job at framing my thoughts the first post I made but I feel like I have done an ok job at clarifying. You are focusing on an idea that no one holds. No one here is saying every idea a progressive person has ever suggested has been on the right side of history. It's not clear what you are saying at this point. The first post appears to be, conservatives will lose this fight (which one? Trumpism? Common perception of Jan 6?) because historically they always lose. But the following posts appear to be an unclear degree of walking back that claim given that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny in the strong form that it was presented. So at this point I am not clear on: 1. Who exactly are "conservatives" in your definition? 2. Under what conditions do they "always lose"? 3. Which modern conservative viewpoint is impacted by (1) and (2) in a way that makes it an inevitable losing battle? It's not clear that there's an answer to that that isn't either trivially true (i.e. the world changes = the people who want things to stay the same won't get exactly what they want) or demonstrably wrong. It seems more like (1) and (2) are dynamically redefined to make the statement true in a way that is retroactively consistent but with zero predictive power.
1) Social conservatives. I suppose more specifically evangelical social conservatives
2) It seems like whoever they are bigoted against always seems to end up having their bigotry outlawed
3) Anti-trans stuff is probably the best modern example
I'm not bothered by it being labeled walking back, I was just kind of posting without much thought put into it. I am bad at communicating in a way that is consistently clear to people and that's my bad.
When I look back at history, there always seems to be some group that social conservatives are being dicks to. They fight tooth and nail to be able to keep being dicks. Eventually it becomes illegal to be a dick. They should just stop being dicks.
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United States43968 Posts
On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On January 07 2022 15:35 LegalLord wrote:
In the sense that the world will always change, I suppose taking a stance of "social conservatives will always lose" is true if you define social conservatives as the ones pushing for things to stay the same. But that's an observation that is trivially true enough to be almost meaningless. On a long enough timeframe, the local "conservatives" of one era will have absolutely lost ground, but that doesn't mean that all the not-conservatives of that era will have gotten what they want either. That things will eventually change in the world/country/etc is obvious; which party gets the most influence in how and to what extent such changes occur is another question entirely - one far less well-suited by the aforementioned reductionist perspective. I don’t think it’s reductionist. Are Africans people or cattle? - lost Should black people be able to vote? - lost Should women be able to vote? - lost Interracial marriage - lost Gay marriage - lost Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO
Conservatives aren’t pro paedophilia, they’re pro authority. They protect authority, cover up abuses by that authority, and treat victims as enemies attacking their beloved authority. They’d rather their priests weren’t diddling kids but they’d rather a powerful church diddled kids than a weak church that empowered victims.
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United States43968 Posts
On January 08 2022 09:43 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 08:55 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO Conservatives are not 'pro-paedophilia' but as Kwark puts it conservatives care more about protecting the social hierarchy and institutions than individual rights and if those those hierarchies and institutions engage in immoral acts (like paedophilia) then they will more easily look the other way to preserve said hierarchy/institution. See for example the catholic church. KwarK did describe pedophilia as a "decidedly conservative thing," although I guess he was trying to draw an inference from this catholic church thing. But really, any attempt to describe pedophilia as more strongly associated with conservatives is just absurd on its face. I mean there comes a point where one's political bias and partisan loyalty should be reigned in. Pedophilia flourishes where adults are in positions of authority and in frequent contact with children, teaching positions being an example.
You’re trying to argue that it’s not a conservative thing, it’s about authority, as if the worship of authority wasn’t the central tenet of political conservatism. Conservatives may not want to fuck your kids but they certainly don’t want you holding the kid fuckers accountable. They’d rather live in a world with powerful establishments that sometimes fuck kids than one without them.
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On January 08 2022 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 09:59 LegalLord wrote:On January 08 2022 07:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. This is a US politics thread, so yes, I meant the US. I understand that I did a bad job at framing my thoughts the first post I made but I feel like I have done an ok job at clarifying. You are focusing on an idea that no one holds. No one here is saying every idea a progressive person has ever suggested has been on the right side of history. It's not clear what you are saying at this point. The first post appears to be, conservatives will lose this fight (which one? Trumpism? Common perception of Jan 6?) because historically they always lose. But the following posts appear to be an unclear degree of walking back that claim given that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny in the strong form that it was presented. So at this point I am not clear on: 1. Who exactly are "conservatives" in your definition? 2. Under what conditions do they "always lose"? 3. Which modern conservative viewpoint is impacted by (1) and (2) in a way that makes it an inevitable losing battle? It's not clear that there's an answer to that that isn't either trivially true (i.e. the world changes = the people who want things to stay the same won't get exactly what they want) or demonstrably wrong. It seems more like (1) and (2) are dynamically redefined to make the statement true in a way that is retroactively consistent but with zero predictive power. 1) Social conservatives. I suppose more specifically evangelical social conservatives 2) It seems like whoever they are bigoted against always seems to end up having their bigotry outlawed 3) Anti-trans stuff is probably the best modern example I'm not bothered by it being labeled walking back, I was just kind of posting without much thought put into it. I am bad at communicating in a way that is consistently clear to people and that's my bad. When I look back at history, there always seems to be some group that social conservatives are being dicks to. They fight tooth and nail to be able to keep being dicks. Eventually it becomes illegal to be a dick. They should just stop being dicks.
Ok. So my summary of that position would be, “in a society which generally supports social equality, in the long run the sentiment will turn against various forms of discrimination.” The only partial counterexample that comes to mind is immigration sentiment, which oscillates more than moves in a specific direction. And I’ll also note that for many of your examples (e.g. slavery, women’s rights), a lot of countries made progress much more quickly than the US did, so the social conservatives must have done something their peers didn’t. But overall I suppose it’s mostly uncontroversial when framed that way. Just fairly narrow in scope is all.
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On January 08 2022 12:35 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 09:59 LegalLord wrote:On January 08 2022 07:39 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. This is a US politics thread, so yes, I meant the US. I understand that I did a bad job at framing my thoughts the first post I made but I feel like I have done an ok job at clarifying. You are focusing on an idea that no one holds. No one here is saying every idea a progressive person has ever suggested has been on the right side of history. It's not clear what you are saying at this point. The first post appears to be, conservatives will lose this fight (which one? Trumpism? Common perception of Jan 6?) because historically they always lose. But the following posts appear to be an unclear degree of walking back that claim given that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny in the strong form that it was presented. So at this point I am not clear on: 1. Who exactly are "conservatives" in your definition? 2. Under what conditions do they "always lose"? 3. Which modern conservative viewpoint is impacted by (1) and (2) in a way that makes it an inevitable losing battle? It's not clear that there's an answer to that that isn't either trivially true (i.e. the world changes = the people who want things to stay the same won't get exactly what they want) or demonstrably wrong. It seems more like (1) and (2) are dynamically redefined to make the statement true in a way that is retroactively consistent but with zero predictive power. 1) Social conservatives. I suppose more specifically evangelical social conservatives 2) It seems like whoever they are bigoted against always seems to end up having their bigotry outlawed 3) Anti-trans stuff is probably the best modern example I'm not bothered by it being labeled walking back, I was just kind of posting without much thought put into it. I am bad at communicating in a way that is consistently clear to people and that's my bad. When I look back at history, there always seems to be some group that social conservatives are being dicks to. They fight tooth and nail to be able to keep being dicks. Eventually it becomes illegal to be a dick. They should just stop being dicks. Ok. So my summary of that position would be, “in a society which generally supports social equality, in the long run the sentiment will turn against various forms of discrimination.” The only partial counterexample that comes to mind is immigration sentiment, which oscillates more than moves in a specific direction. And I’ll also note that for many of your examples (e.g. slavery, women’s rights), a lot of countries made progress much more quickly than the US did, so the social conservatives must have done something their peers didn’t. But overall I suppose it’s mostly uncontroversial when framed that way. Just fairly narrow in scope is all.
I agree 100%. I'm not being particularly bold here.
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Northern Ireland26762 Posts
On January 08 2022 11:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 02:19 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I don’t think it’s reductionist.
Are Africans people or cattle? - lost
Should black people be able to vote? - lost
Should women be able to vote? - lost
Interracial marriage - lost
Gay marriage - lost
Every time it comes up, the socially conservative perspective is purely obstruction. They lost every time but they drag their feet and make it take longer. What about eugenics? Or normalizing paedophilia? Doing away with marriage? Communal child upbringing? Doing away with religion? Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO Conservatives aren’t pro paedophilia, they’re pro authority. They protect authority, cover up abuses by that authority, and treat victims as enemies attacking their beloved authority. They’d rather their priests weren’t diddling kids but they’d rather a powerful church diddled kids than a weak church that empowered victims.
Well yes, I thought I’d covered this with the ‘Kwark is correct’ part of my post. I was merely expanding upon it with examples of vociferously anti-paedophile sentiment from the rank and file.
I know you enjoy a good wee argument on here, but you’re not getting one from me on your analysis
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On January 08 2022 11:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 09:43 Doc.Rivers wrote:On January 08 2022 08:55 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO Conservatives are not 'pro-paedophilia' but as Kwark puts it conservatives care more about protecting the social hierarchy and institutions than individual rights and if those those hierarchies and institutions engage in immoral acts (like paedophilia) then they will more easily look the other way to preserve said hierarchy/institution. See for example the catholic church. KwarK did describe pedophilia as a "decidedly conservative thing," although I guess he was trying to draw an inference from this catholic church thing. But really, any attempt to describe pedophilia as more strongly associated with conservatives is just absurd on its face. I mean there comes a point where one's political bias and partisan loyalty should be reigned in. Pedophilia flourishes where adults are in positions of authority and in frequent contact with children, teaching positions being an example. You’re trying to argue that it’s not a conservative thing, it’s about authority, as if the worship of authority wasn’t the central tenet of political conservatism. Conservatives may not want to fuck your kids but they certainly don’t want you holding the kid fuckers accountable. They’d rather live in a world with powerful establishments that sometimes fuck kids than one without them.
The generalization to conservatives writ large just isn't persuasive when all you're really talking about is the particular circumstances of the catholic church. Clearly conservatives, like most others, want to hold pedophiles accountable by any means possible.
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On January 08 2022 11:57 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 09:43 Doc.Rivers wrote:On January 08 2022 08:55 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 03:10 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 02:31 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
Can you point me towards where there was a large movement for any of those things? All the things I listed were supported by a huge majority of conservatives during the time they lost. Eugenics was big in the Western world from late 19th to mid-20th century, including the US. Forced sterilization was public policy in e.g. Sweden for decades. Normalizing paedophilia was on the agenda of the Green Party in Europe in the 70-80s, IIRC. It didn't catch on and they backed out of it. The idea that marriage is an outdated concept was also pushed by the hippies during the 70s and even earlier than that by feminist thinkers. Communal upbringing was a thing in various socialist/communist projects, e.g. in kibbutzim. I hope you don't need any sources for the progressives trying to do away with religion. That dates back to the Enlightenment. It was also attempted during various revolutions etc. E.g. by the Spanish Republicans or the Soviet Union. Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO Conservatives are not 'pro-paedophilia' but as Kwark puts it conservatives care more about protecting the social hierarchy and institutions than individual rights and if those those hierarchies and institutions engage in immoral acts (like paedophilia) then they will more easily look the other way to preserve said hierarchy/institution. See for example the catholic church. KwarK did describe pedophilia as a "decidedly conservative thing," although I guess he was trying to draw an inference from this catholic church thing. But really, any attempt to describe pedophilia as more strongly associated with conservatives is just absurd on its face. I mean there comes a point where one's political bias and partisan loyalty should be reigned in. Pedophilia flourishes where adults are in positions of authority and in frequent contact with children, teaching positions being an example. Source that, I bet you can not. Because teachers now, due to progress, have a lot more rules around kids and alone time. Sports have made a lot of progress as well. Churches Im not sure on but it was not because of conservatives, since they were the ones hiding it and not wanting the changes. Because the parts you are leaving out is adults with private access, and complete defernce to authority. People figured these things out and have worked to change it to make it more difficult for the predetors. The people stopping those changes were by in large part conservatives, by defintion. Its not that all pedos are conservatives, or even more, i dont know there is any data on that. But it is undeniable fact that the people trying to keep the structures in place that allowed massive amounts of abuse to happen, not being reported, or being ignored because a preist, coach, headmaster, whatever "wouldnt do that", were and are conservatives. Which is why the whole pedophilia strawman from the right against the left is so stupid. First its everyone problem and second any of the progress that has been made, has been made by progressive policy.
The coverups by catholic church leaders cannot be generalized to conservatives writ large. It's similar to what you recently posted - "Progressives are not a monolith."
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And surely there aren't any other aspects of American life where conservatives have a pervasive worship of authority at the expense of any and all victims. Hmm? The police? Never heard of em.
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On January 08 2022 15:26 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2022 11:59 KwarK wrote:On January 08 2022 09:43 Doc.Rivers wrote:On January 08 2022 08:55 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2022 08:33 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2022 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 04:43 Mohdoo wrote:On January 08 2022 04:12 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2022 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:Sorry for being imprecise with my language. What I’m talking about is positions held by large swaths of conservatives, including significant amount of elected politicians. The things I listed were listed because you can look back on polls and politicians showing these weren’t remotely fringe. Look up polls regarding interracial marriage at the time it was legalized for example. I don’t mean any position that could be described as conservative Out of the things you listed, I don’t think there were 10s of US senators supporting. Don't know about the US senators, but Free Love and feminism were massive popular movements. Eugenics was also hardly fringe. Like I said, it was actual policy enacted by democratically elected, often social-democratic governments in a bunch of countries. Abolishing religion also had a massive popular support. But your point was that conservatism always loses. That would mean that whenever there is a new progressive idea, it will eventually win. That clearly hasn't been the case throughout history. Eugenics was definitely supported and you’re right about that. Can you clarify what you mean by “abolish religion”? Can you point to when that was largely supported by a large number of US senators? My point wasn’t that any conceivable idea that could ever be framed as conservative always loses. We still allow humans to live, which is what we also did previously, so you could label that a conservative viewpoint and I guess it wouldn’t be wrong. But no one is really fighting against continuing the human species. I’m talking about actual contentious issues that had widespread support. Eugenics appears to be the only one on the losing side of history. But even then, ethnic/genetic superiority is much more of a right wing idea nowadays. Are we talking exclusively about the US Senate? You framed your point as a universal truth: "(...) social conservatives have yet to win a single war on history. Every single socially conservative perspective of the last 200 years is deeply frowned on. They lose *every* time." Progressives have lost when it comes to eugenics, the Green Party backtracked on their ideas regarding paedophilia and the left changed its stance on marriage. Like I said, abolishing religion was championed by massively popular movements in many parts of Europe. That too is a thing of the past. What about communism vs. capitalism? The former was very much a progressive idea, with massive popular support. The Multikulti approach to immigration is also losing in Europe. @JimmiC Kwark's argument is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the battle of ideas, not practical handling of paedophilia. As far as I know, conservatives have never championed the idea of normalizing paedophilia. They have always condemned it, while sweeping it under the rug if it happened within its ranks. The Green Party, however, had the idea on its agenda for a while. In what form? Outside of fringe lunatics on Twitter, many of whom I suspect are motivated by their own sexual proclivities, I’ve not really seen any paedophilia advocacy. I’ve seen plenty of stuff framed by critics as doing that, but not in actuality. Would you care to elaborate on this? I’m not particularly familiar with the Polish Green’s platform You are, and Kwark too absolutely correct on this issue. In my experience its Conservatives who most enthusiastically, but not exclusively let it be known that they think any convicted paedophile should be hung, or are fine with vigilantes doing the deed. Hell Pizzagate is about elites operating as a paedophilic cabal. Q-Anon or Q-Anon adjacent stuff heavily features conspiracies about elite paedophile rings. They have myriad awful positions IMO, but any charge of conservatives as a bloc being pro-paedophilia is just absurd IMO Conservatives are not 'pro-paedophilia' but as Kwark puts it conservatives care more about protecting the social hierarchy and institutions than individual rights and if those those hierarchies and institutions engage in immoral acts (like paedophilia) then they will more easily look the other way to preserve said hierarchy/institution. See for example the catholic church. KwarK did describe pedophilia as a "decidedly conservative thing," although I guess he was trying to draw an inference from this catholic church thing. But really, any attempt to describe pedophilia as more strongly associated with conservatives is just absurd on its face. I mean there comes a point where one's political bias and partisan loyalty should be reigned in. Pedophilia flourishes where adults are in positions of authority and in frequent contact with children, teaching positions being an example. You’re trying to argue that it’s not a conservative thing, it’s about authority, as if the worship of authority wasn’t the central tenet of political conservatism. Conservatives may not want to fuck your kids but they certainly don’t want you holding the kid fuckers accountable. They’d rather live in a world with powerful establishments that sometimes fuck kids than one without them. The generalization to conservatives writ large just isn't persuasive when all you're really talking about is the particular circumstances of the catholic church. Clearly conservatives, like most others, want to hold pedophiles accountable by any means possible.
But remember that the Catholic church is a predominantly conservative institution, and I completely understand using its unwillingness and failure to uproot the substantial child abuse within the organisation as an argument.
Also, I have never seen a "pizza gate"-like campaigns against any religious institution, or scout groups for that matter. Tbh, the whole "rightwing against pedophiles" movements seems to be more about sticking a disgusting tag on their enemies than actually fighting child abuse.
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EPT
