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On April 23 2021 04:05 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 03:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I believe the point is that even if we magically made every parent in the US great tomorrow, then it'd still be between 1 and 18 years before we really saw that influence how young adults behave. All the more reason to find a way to cultivate this as soon as possible.
In the meantime, though, we’ve got plenty of room for improvement that doesn’t rely on slow moving social change based on questionable notions of how personal responsibility functions. It’s not an either/or, and even if the ideal outcome is eventually realized, police are still gonna need to be able to respond to scenarios involving the young, the mentally ill, and the belligerent without so quickly resorting to end-consequence violence.
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This is a strange incident to have several pages of debates for. I'd file 'not attempting to stab someone in front of a cop with his gun drawn shouting get down' in the same cabinet as 'not drinking bleach'
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On April 23 2021 04:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I think it would, and I also think free unicorns for everyone would be super awesome. But I don’t feel the need to interject my ideas about free unicorns for everyone into random conversations unless I actually have unicorns and am giving them away for free. Do you actually have retroactive universal good parenting for everyone or are you just here to tell everyone that it’d be cool if it was available?
Well-functioning thriving individuals, families and communities are not unicorns.. they exist; hence my suggestion that we prioritize replicating whats going right in so far as we manage to figure out whats going right
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On April 23 2021 04:13 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 04:05 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I believe the point is that even if we magically made every parent in the US great tomorrow, then it'd still be between 1 and 18 years before we really saw that influence how young adults behave. All the more reason to find a way to cultivate this as soon as possible. In the meantime, though, we’ve got plenty of room for improvement that doesn’t rely on slow moving social change based on questionable notions of how personal responsibility functions. It’s not an either/or, and even if the ideal outcome is eventually realized, police are still gonna need to be able to respond to scenarios involving the young, the mentally ill, and the belligerent without so quickly resorting to end-consequence violence.
I agree and have not indicated otherwise at any point
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While we are at it, I also have a solution for the opioid epidemic. Just tell people "dont do drugs." Problem solved. /s
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United States44245 Posts
On April 23 2021 04:15 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 04:05 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I think it would, and I also think free unicorns for everyone would be super awesome. But I don’t feel the need to interject my ideas about free unicorns for everyone into random conversations unless I actually have unicorns and am giving them away for free. Do you actually have retroactive universal good parenting for everyone or are you just here to tell everyone that it’d be cool if it was available? Well-functioning thriving individuals, families and communities are not unicorns.. they exist; hence my suggestion that we prioritize replicating whats going right in so far as we manage to figure out whats going right
You’ve got a plan then? Seems rude of you not to share it.
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On April 23 2021 04:17 BlackJack wrote:
While we are at it, I also have a solution for the opioid epidemic. Just tell people "dont do drugs." Problem solved. /s
Next up, let’s go for world peace!
“Make Love; not War”
There we go; easy peasy problem solved
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On April 23 2021 02:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 02:40 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 23 2021 00:27 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 23 2021 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 22 2021 23:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 22 2021 16:12 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 22 2021 09:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
As someone who mere posts ago used the phrase "literally means nothing" like a hill giant swinging a club after being hit in the face with a color spray, it'd probably be best to not play pretend at being strict with semantics.
Quote of the day right here. I think this argument has traveled really far down the rabbit hole. I'm pretty sure that basically everyone here agrees that U.S. policing is incredibly broken and it would probably be safe to say that we are all, to some degree, on the left on this issue. It seems like we've pushed each other to the extremes for the sake of an unreasonable argument rather than actually dealing with reality at this point. Yes, this is the core of the issue. I do not think preventative killings are morally defensible and certainly not when the execution is performed by a poorly trained individual that belongs to a group of people famous for being poor at making consistent judgements. By endorsing this argument you are necessarily saying that in the situation of Person A actively attacking and trying to kill Person B, Person A's life is automatically more ethically valuable. If Person A is already committing multiple crimes by actively stabbing and killing someone, why is the most ethically correct decision to stand by and wait until they're done to arrest them, or to grossly endanger the lives of law enforcement officers by trying to physically restrain them? You need to defend that stance before we can continue. I'll bite. I do not think that cops should just stand by and let crimes happen and then arrest the person committing the crime. They should do everything in their power to de-escalate the situation and calm everything down so the crime doesn't happen in the first place. To clarify further, we are talking about interactions where no crime has happened but people are being aggressive, not a terrorist incident. In this context, I think giving an individual the power to terminate someone's life based on their feelings of perceived threat to be immoral. No one should be in the position of making the judgement of 'person's A life is more valuable than person B'. Yes, I accept that this means that occasionally it will get out of hand and someone might end up getting stabbed. We have a process for people that do these things. To your final point, if someone is in the middle of a stabbing, they would no longer be shot on a suspicion, they're actively committing a crime. The situation is markedly different. At this point the situation has escalated and I agree that law enforcement should be allowed to respond with a proportional response. Except that this is exactly what happened with the incident in question. The cop didn't shoot because of a "feeling". He shot because someone was actively attempting to stab and kill someone else. I don't mean to be obtuse but nobody did any stabbing, the suspect was executed before any stabbing occurred hence they were executed on the suspicion (you'd probably argue justified suspicion) that she was about to get stabby. I argue that it is immoral to give police the power of execution on situations like this. This argument necessarily concludes with the idea that police should be required to let a victim be harmed (possibly killed) before they act with deadly force to stop a perpetrator, which you said you did not agree with about a page ago. There was no wiggle room in that video. If the cop waits for any more time to let the incident develop then it is extremely likely that the attacker would've stabbed the victim. She was in the motion to stab her when she was shot. This is correct. I do not think the police should have the right to execute people on the suspicion of about to commit a crime; they should do their absolute best to calm down the situation and non-lethally subdue the aggressor (if possible). Occasionally, the situation will get out of hand and someone will get hurt and potentially die... and hopefully, with enough training, the police should be successful the vast majority of the time and be able to defuse the situation and/or non-lethally subdue the attacker. Sometimes shit happens and people kill each other for no reason, just because a cop is present shouldn't carry an immediate death sentence for the potential perpetrator. Aside from being far too optimistic about someone's ability to be "defused"... Your argument is then tacitly admitting that you find the life of the attacker more ethically valuable than the life of the victim. Are you willing to admit to that? Also, you aren't "about to commit a crime" if you are actively attempting to shoot/stab/otherwise kill someone. You have already committed several and are in the process of committing another.
It's not about whose life is worth saving -- ideally we should strive for no-one dying. What's unacceptable to me is empowering an individual to mete out a punishment that we as a society would deem monstrous if no law enforcement had been present. In addition, the risk for a miscarriage of justice currently outweighs the 'gain' of possibly preventing bodily harm to somebody else.
It should go without saying that shooting people for non-violent crimes is beyond monstrous and you should do some serious soul-searching if you think shooting someone over an inanimate object is justified.
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On April 23 2021 04:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 04:15 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 04:05 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I think it would, and I also think free unicorns for everyone would be super awesome. But I don’t feel the need to interject my ideas about free unicorns for everyone into random conversations unless I actually have unicorns and am giving them away for free. Do you actually have retroactive universal good parenting for everyone or are you just here to tell everyone that it’d be cool if it was available? Well-functioning thriving individuals, families and communities are not unicorns.. they exist; hence my suggestion that we prioritize replicating whats going right in so far as we manage to figure out whats going right You’ve got a plan then? Seems rude of you not to share it.
I’d be more than happy to share if I had any magical insight to share. My point is simply that I think this is an important priority
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On April 23 2021 04:16 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 04:13 farvacola wrote:On April 23 2021 04:05 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I believe the point is that even if we magically made every parent in the US great tomorrow, then it'd still be between 1 and 18 years before we really saw that influence how young adults behave. All the more reason to find a way to cultivate this as soon as possible. In the meantime, though, we’ve got plenty of room for improvement that doesn’t rely on slow moving social change based on questionable notions of how personal responsibility functions. It’s not an either/or, and even if the ideal outcome is eventually realized, police are still gonna need to be able to respond to scenarios involving the young, the mentally ill, and the belligerent without so quickly resorting to end-consequence violence. I agree and have not indicated otherwise at any point
Great, to the extent I’ve read words into your position that weren’t there, I apologize.
However, surely you recognize that the personal responsibility bit is very frequently trotted out by folks totally uninterested in police reform, social programs, or pretty much anything even remotely progressive. That’s not necessarily your fault in pushing that view sans the baggage, but it does help explain why some are quick to jump on it.
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United States44245 Posts
On April 23 2021 04:22 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 04:19 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 04:15 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 04:05 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I think it would, and I also think free unicorns for everyone would be super awesome. But I don’t feel the need to interject my ideas about free unicorns for everyone into random conversations unless I actually have unicorns and am giving them away for free. Do you actually have retroactive universal good parenting for everyone or are you just here to tell everyone that it’d be cool if it was available? Well-functioning thriving individuals, families and communities are not unicorns.. they exist; hence my suggestion that we prioritize replicating whats going right in so far as we manage to figure out whats going right You’ve got a plan then? Seems rude of you not to share it. I’d be more than happy to share if I had any magical insight to share. My point is simply that I think this is an important priority
And you share this thought compulsively like some kind of tic despite your lack of any insight to share? That must be difficult. I’m sorry.
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On April 23 2021 04:23 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 04:16 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 04:13 farvacola wrote:On April 23 2021 04:05 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I believe the point is that even if we magically made every parent in the US great tomorrow, then it'd still be between 1 and 18 years before we really saw that influence how young adults behave. All the more reason to find a way to cultivate this as soon as possible. In the meantime, though, we’ve got plenty of room for improvement that doesn’t rely on slow moving social change based on questionable notions of how personal responsibility functions. It’s not an either/or, and even if the ideal outcome is eventually realized, police are still gonna need to be able to respond to scenarios involving the young, the mentally ill, and the belligerent without so quickly resorting to end-consequence violence. I agree and have not indicated otherwise at any point Great, to the extent I’ve read words into your position that weren’t there, I apologize. However, surely you recognize that the personal responsibility bit is very frequently trotted out by folks totally uninterested in police reform, social programs, or pretty much anything even remotely progressive. That’s not necessarily your fault in pushing that view sans the baggage, but it does help explain why some are quick to jump on it.
I absolutely agree. Good ideas (in casu personal responsibility) can be weaponized by bad faith actors for narrative warfare; preventing an earnest effort to come together to find solutions by performative invocation. This has happened (a lot lol - this is a huge part of whats going wrong) but lets not discard good ideas because they’ve been highjacked at times
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On April 23 2021 04:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 04:22 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 04:19 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 04:15 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 04:05 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I think it would, and I also think free unicorns for everyone would be super awesome. But I don’t feel the need to interject my ideas about free unicorns for everyone into random conversations unless I actually have unicorns and am giving them away for free. Do you actually have retroactive universal good parenting for everyone or are you just here to tell everyone that it’d be cool if it was available? Well-functioning thriving individuals, families and communities are not unicorns.. they exist; hence my suggestion that we prioritize replicating whats going right in so far as we manage to figure out whats going right You’ve got a plan then? Seems rude of you not to share it. I’d be more than happy to share if I had any magical insight to share. My point is simply that I think this is an important priority And you share this thought compulsively like some kind of tic despite your lack of any insight to share? That must be difficult. I’m sorry.
I genuinely dont understand your objection here. Im perfectly willing to admit that I am not as good at articulating my points as concisely and precisely as I’d like; but I should not suggest this be prioritized to be looked into just because I dont have all the answers readily at hand to share?
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On April 23 2021 01:28 JimmiC wrote:Why would you assume that Kwark was saying frequently as a percentage of arrests and not frequently in comparison to other places where he believes police to a better job? Again if you want to be the word police you can't be so willynilly yourself. You need to have the sense to not just read one sentence and treat it as if it was not part of a larger comment and more than that a conversation. Other countries have similar numbers of interactions and yet far less of these incidents that is simply factual. That it makes up a small % of total interactions is ridiculous because it should make up far fewer.
So I need to guess the meaning of his words in relation to a point he was not making, has not specified and was not in discussion at the time, because otherwise I am being the word police? I have yet to see Kwark clarify anything in the way you are attributing his intention. He has not even clarified what he means exactly in the specific words he used. Is it in regards to initial reason for the police encounter? Or literal as in police show up and shoot robbers fleeing with TV's in the back.
On April 23 2021 01:28 JimmiC wrote:The frequency is far to high and could be lowered, that is the point. And it is in every like country, the US is exceptionally bad. The standard should not be whether or not you are more or less likely to be shot and killed by the police or a criminal. You should have no fear of being killed by the police, because the amount of people killed by the police should actually be infinitesimal like it is in other countries, and the instances should be where it is clear that it was the only option, and if it was not only options there should be consequences.
This is not in the realm of the same discussion. You understand that right? I can literally agree with everything you wrote and disagree with what Kwark said. It would be like if everyone was discussing the shooting of Jason Peterson in Canada and I chimed in "Very frequently the police in Canada use deadly force against a suspect who was attempting to deprive someone of property rather than kill anyone". You would obviously get my meaning and realize I mean in regards to other country's shootings by police rate, and frequent would be subjective in that way, and deprive property would mean any instance where someone is killed by police for any reason? And you would agree with me completely, no need for clarification, specifics, or relation to the topic at hand.
So anyway, why are Canadian police so quick to shoot people in the back for stealing TV's all the time?
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United States44245 Posts
On April 23 2021 04:43 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 04:27 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 04:22 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 04:19 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 04:15 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 04:05 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:55 Amumoman wrote:On April 23 2021 03:47 KwarK wrote:On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
This brings absolutely nothing useful to the discussion unless you have a secret plan for universal retroactive good parenting implementation. You dont think better parenting and people being more responsible and sensible would contribute positively to (among a thousand other positive things) better interactions between citizens and officers? I think it would, and I also think free unicorns for everyone would be super awesome. But I don’t feel the need to interject my ideas about free unicorns for everyone into random conversations unless I actually have unicorns and am giving them away for free. Do you actually have retroactive universal good parenting for everyone or are you just here to tell everyone that it’d be cool if it was available? Well-functioning thriving individuals, families and communities are not unicorns.. they exist; hence my suggestion that we prioritize replicating whats going right in so far as we manage to figure out whats going right You’ve got a plan then? Seems rude of you not to share it. I’d be more than happy to share if I had any magical insight to share. My point is simply that I think this is an important priority And you share this thought compulsively like some kind of tic despite your lack of any insight to share? That must be difficult. I’m sorry. I genuinely dont understand your objection here. Im perfectly willing to admit that I am not as good at articulating my points as concisely and precisely as I’d like; but I should not suggest this be prioritized to be looked into just because I dont have all the answers readily at hand to share?
I took it to be an attempt at distraction because it was so vague and nonproductive to the issue that that was the only logical thing it could be. The comparison made earlier to entering a drug policy discussion with “what if nobody took drugs, then there would be no problem” is apt. Either you were actively trying to be nonproductive or you’re completely unfamiliar with what a contribution to the discussion would look like. I assumed the former and may have mistakenly ascribed poor intentions to you.
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On April 23 2021 03:44 Amumoman wrote:
All this talk about the officer in question and law enforcement in general, here’s a crazy pitch:
People could be good parents and teach their offspring how they to operate sensibly and functionally the world; this includes not escalating a silly disagreement into running around agitated with a knife about to stab or posing an imminent threat of stabbing. Crazy I know but personal responsibility needs to make a comeback
(Obviously this does not rule out figuring out a way to have law enforcement using the least ammount of force required and doing everything reasonably within their power to de-escalate)
What do you reckon stops people from being good parents and what is your idea of how to rectify this problem?
e:nvm this horse has been beaten to death already lmao
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EPT
