EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 310
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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farvacola
United States18866 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On June 20 2018 01:57 ChristianS wrote: https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1009071403918864385?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet Edit: tweet's not embedding right, but On_Slaught posted it above anyway so I'm not gonna fix it. I'm not normally one to post tweets, but this one seems significant. I don't remember anyone here (even Danglars, iirc) really disagreeing with the idea that Trump is racist at least sometimes, so this might be preaching to the choir, but using the word "infest" to describe a minority group is pretty clearly racist demagoguery to me. I'd be interested to hear if anyone here disagrees, but to be clear, "infest" is a word normally used to describe subhuman animals (rats, cockroaches, Zerg), and he's using it as a blanket term for illegal immigrants. Unlike the "shithole countries," he's not even pretending he didn't say it. The present moment seems like some of the strongest evidence yet that Trump a) holds racist beliefs, and b) those beliefs translate jnto policy. It probably also shouldn't be ignored how hyper partisan his tweets have become. He is literally attributing the other side with wanting to ruin the country. And people said Obama was divisive... | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:03 On_Slaught wrote: It probably also shouldn't be ignored how hyper partisan his tweets have become. He is literally attributing the other side with wanting to ruin the country. And people said Obama was divisive... Make that present tense. Danglars was peddling that mere days ago. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 20 2018 01:58 farvacola wrote: Regardless of Trump's actual racism, I think his immigration rhetoric comes practically verbatim from Stephen Miller. Miller, who was critical in killing the last big push for immigration reform at the end of the Bush era. People warned that putting Sessions in charge of ICE, the immigration courts and having Miller in the White House would be a nightmare. they are just continuing their crusade that they were on in the Senate, to rid America of all immigrants with brown skin. On June 20 2018 02:03 On_Slaught wrote: It probably also shouldn't be ignored how hyper partisan his tweets have become. He is literally attributing the other side with wanting to ruin the country. And people said Obama was divisive... The myth that keeps on giving. The Black President who was acutely aware that any action he took involving race would instantly become divisive was the true divider in this country. Not the guy yelling about how asylum seekers are vermin. You know, the people running from the country that has an erupting volcano destroying its economy. They are the real danger. | ||
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mozoku
United States708 Posts
On June 20 2018 01:55 Danglars wrote: You’re just making things less representative for little gain. Try telling voters they have to share their voice with populous metros a state away? Much of the rural Midwest would be entirely disenfranchised from lack of population (large areas must be swept up to make it purplish for just tiny slices of somebody’s metro). Then strategic voting. Then the same political question of where to draw districts and how to redistrict so that one’s blue with a hefty side of red or red with a hefty side of blue. Strategic vote split a bunch of the seats blue if you’re the absolute majority within the district. More establishment “vote for me because I’m electable, and not these other red challenger ... that will just give team blue more absolute seats in the district!!!” that is slightly less of a problem, though a problem, with more regionally divided districts. Throw in a vote multiplier that preserves each state's relative voting power. For example, if Indiana own 5% of the hypothetical Fief's House Reps in 2018, make each of Indiana's voters have [5% / (population of Indiana)]% of the voting power in the Fief in 2019. Problem solved. If you can convince voters to accept a teaspoon of complexity, at least. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:24 mozoku wrote: Throw in a vote multiplier that preserves each state's relative voting power. For example, if Indiana own 5% of the hypothetical Fief's House Reps in 2018, make each of Indiana's voters have [5% / (population of Indiana)]% of the voting power in the Fief in 2019. Problem solved. If you can convince voters to accept a teaspoon of complexity, at least. The problem is that you are talking about amending the constitution to reshape congress, which has to be put into place by the sitting congress. There are easier ways to address this problem that don't involve drastically altering the founding of our democracy. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:03 On_Slaught wrote: It probably also shouldn't be ignored how hyper partisan his tweets have become. He is literally attributing the other side with wanting to ruin the country. And people said Obama was divisive... And saying the press is the enemy of the people. He seems particularly brain addled right now. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:24 mozoku wrote: Throw in a vote multiplier that preserves each state's relative voting power. For example, if Indiana own 5% of the hypothetical Fief's House Reps in 2018, make each of Indiana's voters have [5% / (population of Indiana)]% of the voting power in the Fief in 2019. Problem solved. If you can convince voters to accept a teaspoon of complexity, at least. Yeah more complexity for minuscule gain. Strategic voting. Preservation of establishment bias, and increased power of that bias. Same braindead critique that my vote doesn’t count as much as Joe’s across the state line for the same “pool” of representatives. Sermo said it best in that it creates a parallel, complicated new interstate governmental fiers that runs contrary to typical town > county > state > federal in federalist systems for power and breadth of responsibility. | ||
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Wulfey_LA
932 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:09 iamthedave wrote: Make that present tense. Danglars was peddling that mere days ago. He was. He probably will be again. Trump’s superseding that depending on the day of the week, if it makes you feel any better. Illegal immigration is a problem. The solution isn’t to keep the border wide open and keep asyluming and amnestying in new arrivals. It’s a physical barrier across most of it, and increased funding and organization for the border patrol/related agencies. This still stands regardless of fixing parent/child separation policies and detention centers from Obama and Bush. Illegal immigrants are lawbreakers and our nation is not just made up of who can make the trip and feels like coming in at any given year. That’s why the debate won’t be fixed. As an aside, Trump is damn right that Democrats don’t want to fix or compromise on jack shit. They think Republicans will get blamed if they block bills on border security and are perfectly happy to reap the political benefits of the current system. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:47 Wulfey_LA wrote: They are sending rapists --> MS13 --> animals --> caravan crisis --> putting kids in cages. Every bit of the current kids in cages policy flows directly from previous Trump campaign promises in the past and all of his rhetoric leading up until now. This is what 'securing the border' looks like. Just remember the last political group in the US who's slogan was America First. They would have had similar plans. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:48 Danglars wrote: He was. He probably will be again. Trump’s superseding that depending on the day of the week, if it makes you feel any better. Illegal immigration is a problem. The solution isn’t to keep the border wide open and keep asyluming and amnestying in new arrivals. It’s a physical barrier across most of it, and increased funding and organization for the border patrol/related agencies. This still stands regardless of fixing parent/child separation policies and detention centers from Obama and Bush. Illegal immigrants are lawbreakers and our nation is not just made up of who can make the trip and feels like coming in at any given year. That’s why the debate won’t be fixed. As an aside, Trump is damn right that Democrats don’t want to fix or compromise on jack shit. They think Republicans will get blamed if they block bills on border security and are perfectly happy to reap the political benefits of the current system. The child separation policy currently being used is not a Bush or Obama era anything. This is a policy entirely of Trump’s making and can be stopped at any moment. It is not a force of nature or result of enforcing some law. And the Democrats are not currently blocking any bills on immigration. There are no bills that have a majority of Republican support. The only bill with close to enough votes is one that ends the policy of separating children from their parents. It has 49 democrats signed onto it. That bill would end this problem if it became law. That is the only bill with even a thin hope of passing at this time. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22519 Posts
No system is going to work properly when its filled with shit people. The solution is not to make complex systems. Its to elect better politicians, and yes I know that is nigh impossible. Once the political system has gone to shit it doesn't fix itself. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:48 Danglars wrote: He was. He probably will be again. Trump’s superseding that depending on the day of the week, if it makes you feel any better. Illegal immigration is a problem. The solution isn’t to keep the border wide open and keep asyluming and amnestying in new arrivals. It’s a physical barrier across most of it, and increased funding and organization for the border patrol/related agencies. This still stands regardless of fixing parent/child separation policies and detention centers from Obama and Bush. Illegal immigrants are lawbreakers and our nation is not just made up of who can make the trip and feels like coming in at any given year. That’s why the debate won’t be fixed. As an aside, Trump is damn right that Democrats don’t want to fix or compromise on jack shit. They think Republicans will get blamed if they block bills on border security and are perfectly happy to reap the political benefits of the current system. The Democrats who don't want to compromise who have compromised constantly throughout his Presidency and helped him with most of his legislation? I mean, the Democrats have been called out in this thread for being far too willing to help the Republicans out of jams. I don't recall many people saying the Repubs are full of the spirit of compromise though... | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:55 iamthedave wrote: The Democrats who don't want to compromise who have compromised constantly throughout his Presidency and helped him with most of his legislation? I mean, the Democrats have been called out in this thread for being far too willing to help the Republicans out of jams. I don't recall many people saying the Repubs are full of the spirit of compromise though... Mostly the spirit of complaining that others aren't willing to compromise with them. Notice the complete lack of compromise they themselves put forward. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22519 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:55 iamthedave wrote: The tweet with Sessions earlier in this thread is how Republican compromise works. You create a massive unsustainable problem and then ask for the other side to agree to your terms to fix it.The Democrats who don't want to compromise who have compromised constantly throughout his Presidency and helped him with most of his legislation? I mean, the Democrats have been called out in this thread for being far too willing to help the Republicans out of jams. I don't recall many people saying the Repubs are full of the spirit of compromise though... Be it DACA, Obamacare or now with illegal immigration. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:55 Gorsameth wrote: You can tweak Congress all you want. The fundamental problem is that the people in it have no interest in actually governing and would rather grandstand, accomplish nothing and then blame the other guy for the problem (as seen by the high re-election rate (assuming they don't retire) but the completely shit approval rate. The problem is always someone else). No system is going to work properly when its filled with shit people. The solution is not to make complex systems. Its to elect better politicians, and yes I know that is nigh impossible. Once the political system has gone to shit it doesn't fix itself. indeed it does not; and it's the voters fault for voting in terrible people like that. though complex systems can occasion help with such problems by changing the dynamics in ways that lead to better results on average; but the voters do not have the competence to judge which are the correct system changes to accomplish that. | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On June 20 2018 01:49 On_Slaught wrote: Trump is going on the offensive rather than doing the right thing. Please note the dehumanizing term "infest" as applied to immigrants, including children escaping violence. Fascists rejoice I guess. That discussion yesterday is looking pretty prescient. We cant expect Trump to not be evil, so it falls on people like Cruz to help us (lol...). Then you have people like Coulter and Ingram saying these kids are actors or being kept in day spas. Man, what a sad time. History will not look kindly on this time period. Do we all remember that argument we had back when Trump referred to MS-13 as animals? This is what happens when that sort of dehumanizing rhetoric is given a pass. Now it's not just a members of a gang that are animals, now the gang members are pests (and therefore acceptable to exterminate, because that's what you do with pests) and the rest of the immigrants from nations that gang is connected to are lumped together with the gang. It's going to creep right along until Trump says something like "We need to do whatever is necessary to get rid of these pests and save our country," and nobody bats an eye because it's only slightly worse than the last thing he said. Also, he just implied that Democrats only win elections because they help gang members get into the country and vote illegally, but that's somehow the least noteworthy part of that tweet. | ||
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Wulfey_LA
932 Posts
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/racist-demagogue | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9959 Posts
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