|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'.
What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around.
|
United States24801 Posts
On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around.
By this description firing squad might actually be more humane than lethal injection. I wonder why the lethal injection doesn't start with general anesthesia that just puts you to sleep, followed by the other stuff... Either way, given how quickly death penalty stuff seems to move, I expect Biden will undo anything that needs undoing before it is needed.
|
On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. Hence the 'done properly' because if your going to kill someone there is no reason not to include a general anaesthetic.
I do believe modern medicine has advanced to the point where we can kill someone quietly in their sleep if we want to. (again, I would prefer it we don't. I am against the death penalty, but if a country is going to do it they should do it as humanely as possible)
The fact that there is no check to see if a prison is still awake or not before they are killed is just yet another utter failure of the US system.
On November 29 2020 01:21 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. By this description firing squad might actually be more humane than lethal injection. I wonder why the lethal injection doesn't start with general anesthesia that just puts you to sleep, followed by the other stuff... Either way, given how quickly death penalty stuff seems to move, I expect Biden will undo anything that needs undoing before it is needed. Its supposed to but as always the US penal system is incompetent. Doses to low and triggered remotely with no checks to see if it works means that apparently, according to post mortem checks, most killed by lethal injection have low enough concentrations that a doctor wouldn't be allowed to perform surgery on them.
|
On November 29 2020 01:21 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. By this description firing squad might actually be more humane than lethal injection. I wonder why the lethal injection doesn't start with general anesthesia that just puts you to sleep, followed by the other stuff... Either way, given how quickly death penalty stuff seems to move, I expect Biden will undo anything that needs undoing before it is needed.
All of this stuff is really hard to judge, because the only people who could tell you are dead. I wonder if any of the modern methods of execution are actually any better than a simple guillotine.
But generally speaking, yeah, death penalty is simply stupid and pointless. It is tough on crime, vengeance style bullshit instead of actually trying to make society better. Prevention and social security systems are far better and especially more cost effective than punitive punishments, and rehabilitation is much more cost effective than vengeance.
But that doesn't feel right to the regressives, and they live in a feelings before facts world. They feel that harsher punishments should discourage criminals more, so it must be true. No amount of proof will convince them of anything else.
|
On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around.
This never made any sense to me. Much like what micronesia says, what's so difficult about loading someone up with a whole lot of heroin before the potassium chloride and whatnot. Makes no sense to just use a benzo and call it good enough.
Hell, just add more heroin to the heroin.. it's not like an overdose would be a bad thing if the goal is to produce a corpse.
I know all of that sounds rather crude but I can't imagine an intentional opioid overdose to be a painful means of death, at least when compared to hopefully making them sleepy enough to not notice their heart/lungs failing. And for what it's worth I'm not pro death penalty, but hey you might as well do it right while it's in effect =/
|
United States44352 Posts
On November 29 2020 01:36 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 01:21 micronesia wrote:On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. By this description firing squad might actually be more humane than lethal injection. I wonder why the lethal injection doesn't start with general anesthesia that just puts you to sleep, followed by the other stuff... Either way, given how quickly death penalty stuff seems to move, I expect Biden will undo anything that needs undoing before it is needed. All of this stuff is really hard to judge, because the only people who could tell you are dead. I wonder if any of the modern methods of execution are actually any better than a simple guillotine. But generally speaking, yeah, death penalty is simply stupid and pointless. It is tough on crime, vengeance style bullshit instead of actually trying to make society better. Prevention and social security systems are far better and especially more cost effective than punitive punishments, and rehabilitation is much more cost effective than vengeance. But that doesn't feel right to the regressives, and they live in a feelings before facts world. They feel that harsher punishments should discourage criminals more, so it must be true. No amount of proof will convince them of anything else.
Nitrogen asphyxiation is so painless people do it accidentally. The body detects too much CO2 when it suffocates, not not enough oxygen. You can happily breathe nitrogen gas right up to the moment you black out from lack of oxygen to the brain without triggering the suffocation instinct. Happens from time to time at apple warehouses because they keep the oxygen low to stop decay.
|
On November 29 2020 01:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 01:36 Simberto wrote:On November 29 2020 01:21 micronesia wrote:On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. By this description firing squad might actually be more humane than lethal injection. I wonder why the lethal injection doesn't start with general anesthesia that just puts you to sleep, followed by the other stuff... Either way, given how quickly death penalty stuff seems to move, I expect Biden will undo anything that needs undoing before it is needed. All of this stuff is really hard to judge, because the only people who could tell you are dead. I wonder if any of the modern methods of execution are actually any better than a simple guillotine. But generally speaking, yeah, death penalty is simply stupid and pointless. It is tough on crime, vengeance style bullshit instead of actually trying to make society better. Prevention and social security systems are far better and especially more cost effective than punitive punishments, and rehabilitation is much more cost effective than vengeance. But that doesn't feel right to the regressives, and they live in a feelings before facts world. They feel that harsher punishments should discourage criminals more, so it must be true. No amount of proof will convince them of anything else. Nitrogen asphyxiation is so painless people do it accidentally. The body detects too much CO2 when it suffocates, not not enough oxygen. You can happily breathe nitrogen gas right up to the moment you black out from lack of oxygen to the brain without triggering the suffocation instinct. Happens from time to time at apple warehouses because they keep the oxygen low to stop decay.
An FYI for dumb city dwellers like me.
He's referring to the fruit.
|
Retribution as a form of punishment will never be ethical or even reasonable.
|
|
|
The problem they have had with medically assisted death penalty is that most qualified to administer it also swore an oath to not do it. So you end up with average people doing it instead, messing up.
Secondly, most drugs for killing people are illegal and thus not manufactured. Limiting the selection available.
Massive Opiod overdose sounds the most reasonable, good supply, people do it by mistake all the time.
|
Everyone here has made solid points. It makes no sense why it can't be painless and swift, and it likewise is true that trained medical personnel will, because of a certain oath they take, often be paradoxically unable to perform the act of injection, leaving the job to amateurs. The bit about amateurs being the only ones who can do the job ends up being critical, as it turns out. John Oliver did a piece on it last year that I remembered, and it's definitely worth the 20 minutes:
+ Show Spoiler [Youtube Vid] +
This is all assuming you're even on board with the idea of "humane" capital punishment. But, of course, as most people who receive it are now dead, you'd be forgiven for not knowing how absolutely horrific the whole scene can be.
|
On November 29 2020 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. Hence the 'done properly' because if your going to kill someone there is no reason not to include a general anaesthetic. I do believe modern medicine has advanced to the point where we can kill someone quietly in their sleep if we want to. (again, I would prefer it we don't. I am against the death penalty, but if a country is going to do it they should do it as humanely as possible) The fact that there is no check to see if a prison is still awake or not before they are killed is just yet another utter failure of the US system. Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 01:21 micronesia wrote:On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. By this description firing squad might actually be more humane than lethal injection. I wonder why the lethal injection doesn't start with general anesthesia that just puts you to sleep, followed by the other stuff... Either way, given how quickly death penalty stuff seems to move, I expect Biden will undo anything that needs undoing before it is needed. Its supposed to but as always the US penal system is incompetent. Doses to low and triggered remotely with no checks to see if it works means that apparently, according to post mortem checks, most killed by lethal injection have low enough concentrations that a doctor wouldn't be allowed to perform surgery on them.
There is no anesthesia, just a muscle relaxant that burns like fire going through your veins. There's no doctor present, nor have they put in place, or been asked about, the current system.
Prisonners are asking for the electric chair instead.
|
On November 29 2020 05:15 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 01:34 Gorsameth wrote:On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. Hence the 'done properly' because if your going to kill someone there is no reason not to include a general anaesthetic. I do believe modern medicine has advanced to the point where we can kill someone quietly in their sleep if we want to. (again, I would prefer it we don't. I am against the death penalty, but if a country is going to do it they should do it as humanely as possible) The fact that there is no check to see if a prison is still awake or not before they are killed is just yet another utter failure of the US system. On November 29 2020 01:21 micronesia wrote:On November 29 2020 01:16 NewSunshine wrote:On November 28 2020 20:41 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2020 20:35 schaf wrote:The Trump administration expanded the rules for capital punishment, a rule that will take effect in 30 days and will thus stand for about a month until Biden takes over. As someone who is against the death penalty I personally find this disgusting, it's playing games with people's lives if it has any effect at all. Just to score brownie points. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/27/politics/federal-execution-new-rule-firing-squads/index.html Electrocution and firing squads... I suspect this to be challenge in the courts immediately and help up until Trump is out of office. I am not in favour of the death penalty but atleast the lethal injection, if done properly, is 'humane'. What I've heard about lethal injection suggests that it too is a horrifying experience, basically paralyzing you while it goes to work slowly shutting your body down, all while actually being incredibly painful. It makes a great case to be against the death penalty all-around. By this description firing squad might actually be more humane than lethal injection. I wonder why the lethal injection doesn't start with general anesthesia that just puts you to sleep, followed by the other stuff... Either way, given how quickly death penalty stuff seems to move, I expect Biden will undo anything that needs undoing before it is needed. Its supposed to but as always the US penal system is incompetent. Doses to low and triggered remotely with no checks to see if it works means that apparently, according to post mortem checks, most killed by lethal injection have low enough concentrations that a doctor wouldn't be allowed to perform surgery on them. There is no anesthesia, just a muscle relaxant that burns like fire going through your veins. There's no doctor present, nor have they put in place, or been asked about, the current system. Prisonners are asking for the electric chair instead.
That's at least, in part, because the doctor's code of ethics flat out prevents them from giving advice on how to best administer the death penalty. I'm pretty sure they're not allowed to be present for it either.
Most countries won't even manufacture the drug they use for similar reasons (or at least are banned from shipping to the US).
|
Since that news is political theatre, you guys are looking at this the wrong way. You shouldn't be asking if firing squads or electrocution are more humane than lethal injection, but rather if they are more badass.
|
On November 29 2020 06:13 Dan HH wrote:
Since that news is political theatre, you guys are looking at this the wrong way. You shouldn't be asking if firing squads or electrocution are more humane than lethal injection, but rather if they are more badass. Well then surely we should go full Idiocracy and use monster trucks.
|
On November 29 2020 07:50 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 06:13 Dan HH wrote:
Since that news is political theatre, you guys are looking at this the wrong way. You shouldn't be asking if firing squads or electrocution are more humane than lethal injection, but rather if they are more badass. Well then surely we should go full Idiocracy and use monster trucks.
Or go North Korea, execution by anti-aircraft gun fire.
|
I'm a proponent of the death penalty but I think the standard for the sentence and the appeal process should be extreme to the point where even in a nation of 350 Million people it shouldn't be more than 10 a year in the worst years.
But yes nitrogen gas or something painless there's no reason to make someone suffer if they're already going to die. Hanging is probably the most humane capital punishment outside of a painless gas.
|
On November 29 2020 08:05 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 07:50 Gorsameth wrote:On November 29 2020 06:13 Dan HH wrote:
Since that news is political theatre, you guys are looking at this the wrong way. You shouldn't be asking if firing squads or electrocution are more humane than lethal injection, but rather if they are more badass. Well then surely we should go full Idiocracy and use monster trucks. Or go North Korea, execution by anti-aircraft gun fire.
The real american thing would be execution by supersonic baseball cannon .
|
On November 29 2020 01:08 JimmiC wrote:
What farva said. Plus I'm not a big fan of life imprisonment, certainly not in the really dumb 3 strikes context. For me it is a lesser of two evils choice and one that allows for the correction of mistakes. I don't see any societal benefit to killing someone. When was the last time someone spending life in prison got out and killed someone? I guarantee the number of times that has happened in the last 25 years is way lower than number of innocent people murdered by the legal system.
So many of the US laws and policy are not about what is best for society but rather tough talking points and making long term, repeat customers for their for profit criminal justice system, with seemingly no understanding of the costs of these decisions to their society and culture. So much time and money is spent on punishment very little is spent on prevention. If you fixed, or even improved life for all the poor, improved that gun situation, stopped the war on drugs and all the completely awful policy that is easy to see is awful if you just look pragmatically, then the death penalty would not be as big an issue.
How about you? How do you justify the morality of the death penalty being the "right" thing, given that you think it worse than life in prison? Is not final judgement supposed to be gods call? Is stripping away the opportunity for someone to be saved by the love of jesus a moral move? Is forgiveness and redemption not the two most important tenets of Jesus himself?
There is no good argument for the death penalty, it basically comes down to vengeance feels good enough that you're OK with the mistakes, that have and continue to happen. The death penalty is very anti christian/jesus, which he tried to correct with his teachings in the new testament.
There are people who cannot be rehabilitated and are a danger to society. You cannot ever let folks like Dahmer, Black Widow serial killers, etc. out of prison. Most people who have life imprisonment sentences fall in the too dangerous for society category. It would be interesting to see if you'd advocate letting someone like John Wayne Gacy walk free.
You also realize only 7% of US prisons are nominally "private" right? How do you blame such a small figure for the state of the penal code? What about the 93% of Government run prisons?
|
United States44352 Posts
On November 29 2020 08:42 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2020 01:08 JimmiC wrote:
What farva said. Plus I'm not a big fan of life imprisonment, certainly not in the really dumb 3 strikes context. For me it is a lesser of two evils choice and one that allows for the correction of mistakes. I don't see any societal benefit to killing someone. When was the last time someone spending life in prison got out and killed someone? I guarantee the number of times that has happened in the last 25 years is way lower than number of innocent people murdered by the legal system.
So many of the US laws and policy are not about what is best for society but rather tough talking points and making long term, repeat customers for their for profit criminal justice system, with seemingly no understanding of the costs of these decisions to their society and culture. So much time and money is spent on punishment very little is spent on prevention. If you fixed, or even improved life for all the poor, improved that gun situation, stopped the war on drugs and all the completely awful policy that is easy to see is awful if you just look pragmatically, then the death penalty would not be as big an issue.
How about you? How do you justify the morality of the death penalty being the "right" thing, given that you think it worse than life in prison? Is not final judgement supposed to be gods call? Is stripping away the opportunity for someone to be saved by the love of jesus a moral move? Is forgiveness and redemption not the two most important tenets of Jesus himself?
There is no good argument for the death penalty, it basically comes down to vengeance feels good enough that you're OK with the mistakes, that have and continue to happen. The death penalty is very anti christian/jesus, which he tried to correct with his teachings in the new testament.
There are people who cannot be rehabilitated and are a danger to society. You cannot ever let folks like Dahmer, Black Widow serial killers, etc. out of prison. Most people who have life imprisonment sentences fall in the too dangerous for society category. It would be interesting to see if you'd advocate letting someone like John Wayne Gacy walk free. You also realize only 7% of US prisons are nominally "private" right? How do you blame such a small figure for the state of the penal code? What about the 93% of Government run prisons?
The government ones don't use nationalized industries to provide all of the necessary services. It's still all outsourced to the wider prison industry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
