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On September 09 2020 04:53 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 04:23 Danglars wrote:On September 09 2020 04:00 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Are we doing the usual ‘but what about Antifa?’ dance here?
While ostensibly of the left, what commonalities do the Biden camp and Antifa or the Black Bloc actually have? Of denizens of this particular thread (while not claiming he’s indulging in violence), GH is probably closest to these folks and what’s his opinion of Biden and the Dems?
Plenty of people, myself included have criticised the violence we’re seeing from the left as either immoral, politically counterproductive or both.
How have you not seen Republicans defend inflammatory rhetoric? The President is a pretty visible Republican, although in fairness the denizens of the legislature haven’t aped some of the worst of his rhetoric.
One notable difference between left wing agitation and these various right wing thugs is that the left’s isn’t sporting equivalent support of ‘their guy’, or wearing the left’s equivalent of MAGA caps.
They may not represent your views but they sure as hell are Trump supporters and outfit themselves accordingly.
But hey there’s no link to Trump here, and the two things are totally equivalent. If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. Rightwing extremists are going to vote Trump. Left wing extremists are not going to vote Biden. What does that tell you? Trump is going to excuse rightwing violence and still court that vote. Biden is not, though he will encourage protest and push back as he should. You are going to vote for the man who has the worst people voting for him so your team can win. This is just the type of person you are. @wombat, I agree that conservative media and Trump are a big problem in Rittenhouse's case. But he was the one who chose to take his loaded gun across state lines and get into with the protesters. His party is all about "personal responsibility" supposedly, so he needs to take some of that. He has a chance at redemption in the sense that at some point he may realize how wrong he was. The story line of him needing to defend himself is mostly bullshit, since the last 2 where he was "defending" himself likely those "attacking" him had seen him shoot and kill the first. If anything them attacking him was to try to stop violence. Pretty brave of a guy with a skateboard to try to take down someone who had already killed at least 1. The reality is though the morally bankrupt president didn't say that this was not what he wanted, even after it happened. He continues to stoke the flames, he wants more violence, more death. He is a awful human being who does not seem to exhibit one redeeming quality.
And Nouar points out who these right wing guys are voting for, and I call that an impossible standard and dumb, and you apparently agree with me on that point.
On September 09 2020 04:54 Wombat_NI_Again wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 04:23 Danglars wrote:On September 09 2020 04:00 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Are we doing the usual ‘but what about Antifa?’ dance here?
While ostensibly of the left, what commonalities do the Biden camp and Antifa or the Black Bloc actually have? Of denizens of this particular thread (while not claiming he’s indulging in violence), GH is probably closest to these folks and what’s his opinion of Biden and the Dems?
Plenty of people, myself included have criticised the violence we’re seeing from the left as either immoral, politically counterproductive or both.
How have you not seen Republicans defend inflammatory rhetoric? The President is a pretty visible Republican, although in fairness the denizens of the legislature haven’t aped some of the worst of his rhetoric.
One notable difference between left wing agitation and these various right wing thugs is that the left’s isn’t sporting equivalent support of ‘their guy’, or wearing the left’s equivalent of MAGA caps.
They may not represent your views but they sure as hell are Trump supporters and outfit themselves accordingly.
But hey there’s no link to Trump here, and the two things are totally equivalent. If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. Why should that standard apply? One group is of the ostensible left, like Biden. There’s a notable lack of Biden support there. The other group are literally wearing pro-Trump gear so I’m not sure there’s an equivalency there.
You saw the post, right? And read it? Because it sure sounded like we can play "who they're likely to vote for" with right-wing extremists, and I was curious if that standard applied to both sides. You can totally disagree with him and say it's a dumb standard to hold.
On September 09 2020 05:11 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 04:23 Danglars wrote:On September 09 2020 04:00 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Are we doing the usual ‘but what about Antifa?’ dance here?
While ostensibly of the left, what commonalities do the Biden camp and Antifa or the Black Bloc actually have? Of denizens of this particular thread (while not claiming he’s indulging in violence), GH is probably closest to these folks and what’s his opinion of Biden and the Dems?
Plenty of people, myself included have criticised the violence we’re seeing from the left as either immoral, politically counterproductive or both.
How have you not seen Republicans defend inflammatory rhetoric? The President is a pretty visible Republican, although in fairness the denizens of the legislature haven’t aped some of the worst of his rhetoric.
One notable difference between left wing agitation and these various right wing thugs is that the left’s isn’t sporting equivalent support of ‘their guy’, or wearing the left’s equivalent of MAGA caps.
They may not represent your views but they sure as hell are Trump supporters and outfit themselves accordingly.
But hey there’s no link to Trump here, and the two things are totally equivalent. If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. ? But the far-left and antifa are not supporting Biden per-se, and Biden is not endorsing rioting ? While Trump is definitely coveting these guys, openly retweeting their leaders or some theories, calling them "very nice people", and most of those guys are hardcore Trump supporters, how can you compare ? Should I also remind you that the Trump administration just published a report citing far-right extremists are THE main domestic terrorism threat in the US, and didn't even mention antifa ? And that they accounted for a large portion of the killings ? Show nested quote +“Among DVE [domestic violent extremist] actors, WSEs [white supremacist extremists] conducted half of all lethal attacks (8 of 16), resulting in the majority of deaths (39 of 48),” the drafts read. from the report I posted the other day. Your previous talking about Rittenhouse and that other far-left guy who murdered a guy, opened fire on cops and got killed... Did you even see someone defending that guy here ? Rittenhouse behaved illegaly, put himself in a dangerous position on purpose, had to kill people to get out. You can't really say he used legal ways to defend himself since he was behaving illegally by possessing a gun in the first place but hey... the courts will judge if he looked for it or defended himself, not me. But you can't really compare the response here. Nobody defended that antifa guy to my knowledge, while the president was all about defending the vigilantes even while not having all the facts. One side is endorsing protests against the police murdering black guys, and refusing violence (while some mayors are acting strangely, not arresting exactly who they should, I'll grant you that). They may have people endorsing shouting at opponents in the street or in front of their home, which might make these guys uncomfortable away from their ivory tower, I'll grant you that. That's kinda the point and not illegal per-se, as long as it's not pure harrassment (hey, it's your 1st amendment which the right is so proud of...) One side is endorsing and cozying up to the most domestic violent extremist population of the US, and is proud of it. They are letting their supporters wish opponents dead on a plaza at a rally, no problem. They are ALSO having masked armed guys in capitols in front of opposing lawmakers' doors, which is a LOT more threatening that shouting at you. Tough choice really ?
I talked about Biden focusing on the "cause" of the rioting (as if it's justified), and delaying delaying delaying the stronger condemnations until even fucking Don Lemon of CNN had to get up and say Biden better get up on a podium and condemn the violence, because internal polls are looking bad.I do think that what's happening in Kenosha is a Rorschact test for the entire country and I think it's a blind spot for Democrats. I think Democrats are ignoring this problem or hoping that it's going to go away. Unless somebody comes up with a solution over the next ## days, the problem is not going to be fixed by then, but what they can do ... Joe Biden may be afraid to do it I'm not sure ... he's gotta address it. He's gotta come out and talk about it. He's gotta do a speech like Barack Obama did about race ... ... ... When he is the president, Kamala Harris is the Vice-President, then they will take care of this problem.
But guess what, the rioting has to stop. Chris, as you know and I know, it's showing up in the polling. It's showing up in focus groups. It is the only thing right now that is sticking and the Democrats tonight stuck with that ...
You can blubber along about Joe eventually climbing up the stairs of his basement and out to a podium, whereas Trump will basically praise anybody that says he's great, regardless of whether that's foreign nationals or QAnon imbeciles. That's not leadership or standing up as a left-wing moderate with values, that's actually giving a canned political speech because his advisors say it might cost him the election if he doesn't. You maybe elect that guy to be in charge of your city's complaint department or pothole detection team. Not for president, and not because he can put an inch ahead of Trump on this issue. At least Trump will condemn it day one, and point out to Democratic mayors or governors that the national guard is the right call with the size of the rioting and looting. It's not saying much by comparison, but Biden does not look good by comparison to Trump. He looks like a political focus-grouped lightweight. The race literally got much tighter in major working-class states that were previously strongly Democratic, because many of those voters can see the talk in context and understand it much better than the average TL Pol thread denizen.
I hope to find a primary source on that report you mention. I wouldn't really be setting sail on the far-right responsible for half of the attacks, but that they're more deadly. That would be half the attacks. The DoJ task force leader on violent anti-government extremists has certainly mentioned the growth in Antifa and boogalo and the rest in the same breath. Wait and see.
I mostly talked about the lack of attention towards the Antifa far-left killing of the Patriot Prayer dude, compared to that of the teenage Rittenhouse. He at least had the advantage of being young and dumb and chased down and attacked in all the videos released thus far. Rittenhouse never went "I'm 100% Antifa" on record, then give a VICE interview while on the run from the police confessing to it.
Let's see, I already told you about how I feel the Biden campaign has done abysmally on excusing violence until the polling shows he'd better come around to doing something stronger verbally about it. I'm not seeing your purported "endorsing and cozying up to the most domestic violent extremist population of the US, and is proud of it." Does Trump have these people on a leash to "letting their supporters wish opponents dead." The second I think people are rushing away from taking responsibility for extremists voting for them, I'm hit with Republican leadership responsible for their speech. Secondarily, Trump has condemned violence on the streets and proudly defended law and order. If this incident gets any prominence (It's an insult to intelligence to think these guys do anything like nightly violent protests at courthouses for months on end), you'll more attention.
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On September 09 2020 05:25 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 03:36 Danglars wrote:On September 09 2020 02:20 Broetchenholer wrote:
One candidate is openly courting "his" extremists, the other is not. Even if you see neo nazis and antifa as similarly bad, only one parties stance is plenty of good people on both sides, besides the other side consists of terrorists.
Why do you feel the need to defend right wing extremists at all? You have claimed multiple times, that you neither belong to the described groups, nor are you a fan of trump? So why the reflexive what about ism? Why don’t you just come out and say that “who they’re going to vote for” is an illegitimate criticism? I’m sure you have your reasons for saying Trump is openly courting these guys, just as I have mine for Biden excusing and both-sides-ing the violence. That isn’t what the post I quote responded to alleged, so I’d appreciate some comment on the subject even if you wish to move on to others. Biden really is in a though spot due to the protests,at least they did accomplish that lol. Like he needs the votes of the more extreme left wing elements but at the same time most of the people in the midle dont have much sympathy for the way some of the protests are going and are getting woried about their safety,and those are votes he can not do without either. He has to please both groups so he is both-sides-ing but it has become quiet difficult to maintain that aproach. Maybe thats why media like cnn are starting to report less and less on the protests as a whole. For biden i think it would probably be best to give up on trying to win over the more extreme left wing elements and take a clear stance against the violent protests while at the same time keeping the message that he will improve the situation for POC,though that is kinda difficult since its such a thin line between violent protests and non violent protests. I dont think he can completely ignore the issue either,its one of trumps main campaign points that will probably be a big talking point in the debates.
Biden goes soft on the far-left, and does both sidesism. Trump goes soft on the far-right, and does both sidesism. I've seen people suggest that Biden's moderate bona fides gives him a Get Out of Jail Free card on this issue, but it doesn't stick.
He was content to let historical media institutions proclaim "mostly peaceful" for months at a time, because he thought the political right move was to make it out to be no big deal and issue small condemnations from the basement every so often. The "mostly peaceful" narrative was false enough to resonate with decent Americans. That was Biden's major fumble where it mattered. I know his supporters, and people begrudgingly voting for him when they would've preferred Sanders, want voters to weight pro-con columns and total them up to find Biden courts the far-left at 2 points less than Trump courts the far-right. It doesn't work that way.
You take the stand and condemn the groups in no uncertain terms from the start, or you're just Trump-lite with none of the entertainment value. Biden literally decided he wouldn't go to Kenosha, criticized Trump for going Tuesday, then went Thursday. Tough luck; you copied Trump/Pence early denunciations of the violence later, then copied the visits later, and wants to be seen as ahead of Trump on policing and riots. And BLM was in my state chanting "Death to America" last week in Oakland, if people here think the "far-left rhetoric isn't as bad as far-right rhetoric" has a chance of catching voters' attention.
Bonus:+ Show Spoiler +I have spent the last three days speaking to almost every person I've seen on the streets in Kenosha and Racine and folks... I hate to break it to you... but nobody gives a shit about any of the scandals you're tweeting about
It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to describe how much they don't give a shit. It's like they give NEGATIVE shits.
There's this mentality on Twitter that's like "THIS one huge scandal will sink Trump with THIS group of voters" and I can conclusively report that this is bullshit
Here's why:
Many of the people who ~tweet about politics~ assume that voters behave according to a particular logic
Like: Trump insults women, therefore women will dislike Trump
or
Trump breaks the law, therefore "law and order" Rs will break from him
YOU THINK voter logic is like:
A > B > C >D
IN ACTUALITY, voter logic is more like:
A > Purple > Banana > 18
(this is true on both sides by the way, not just MAGA folks)
Also: the most pervasive bias in political coverage is not left vs. right it's "follows politics" vs. "doesn't follow politics"
By default, nearly everyone who covers politics falls into the "follows politics" category, which makes it really hard to understand people who don't
So a lot of people who think a lot about politics will be like WHAT ABOUT THE HATCH ACT and normal people are like... wtf are you talking about
Or politics people will be like "according to polls and modeling, if X% swing in Y direction then Z will happen" and normal people are like... whut
It's worth noting that man-on-the-street reporting is highly anecdotal! This is by no means a comprehensive analysis because it totally depends on who decides to talk to me.
But taken alongside polls and other data, it can be a helpful way to learn what's landing and what's not
One more point, re: EQ
A side effect of the data-fication of political expertise is that the people who can read polls are perceived to be smarter than the people who can read people.
So you have all these guys crunching numbers who aren't actually LISTENING to normal ppl
LISTENING means hearing what people are not saying as well as what they're saying.
LISTENING also means not ambushing voters like "but aren't you upset about X or Y?" or bullying them
LISTENING means making sure they feel like they're being heard and not judged
just saying there are a lot of politics dudes who love to talk and hate to listen
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Northern Ireland26771 Posts
Biden doesn’t have groups of people with ‘I love Biden’ branded hats running about the place, it’s doubtful what clout he even has if he did try to pull them into line.
That said I’ll happily concede that the Dems are letting things largely run their course without much concrete action or condemnatory rhetoric. As to the wisdom or morally righteousness of that course, well that’s up for debate of course.
The idea that Trump has even attempted beyond the odd half arsed sound bite to rein in his base is laughable, his interjections tend to go the opposite way.
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On September 09 2020 07:47 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 05:25 pmh wrote:On September 09 2020 03:36 Danglars wrote:On September 09 2020 02:20 Broetchenholer wrote:
One candidate is openly courting "his" extremists, the other is not. Even if you see neo nazis and antifa as similarly bad, only one parties stance is plenty of good people on both sides, besides the other side consists of terrorists.
Why do you feel the need to defend right wing extremists at all? You have claimed multiple times, that you neither belong to the described groups, nor are you a fan of trump? So why the reflexive what about ism? Why don’t you just come out and say that “who they’re going to vote for” is an illegitimate criticism? I’m sure you have your reasons for saying Trump is openly courting these guys, just as I have mine for Biden excusing and both-sides-ing the violence. That isn’t what the post I quote responded to alleged, so I’d appreciate some comment on the subject even if you wish to move on to others. Biden really is in a though spot due to the protests,at least they did accomplish that lol. Like he needs the votes of the more extreme left wing elements but at the same time most of the people in the midle dont have much sympathy for the way some of the protests are going and are getting woried about their safety,and those are votes he can not do without either. He has to please both groups so he is both-sides-ing but it has become quiet difficult to maintain that aproach. Maybe thats why media like cnn are starting to report less and less on the protests as a whole. For biden i think it would probably be best to give up on trying to win over the more extreme left wing elements and take a clear stance against the violent protests while at the same time keeping the message that he will improve the situation for POC,though that is kinda difficult since its such a thin line between violent protests and non violent protests. I dont think he can completely ignore the issue either,its one of trumps main campaign points that will probably be a big talking point in the debates. Biden goes soft on the far-left, and does both sidesism. Trump goes soft on the far-right, and does both sidesism. I've seen people suggest that Biden's moderate bona fides gives him a Get Out of Jail Free card on this issue, but it doesn't stick. He was content to let historical media institutions proclaim "mostly peaceful" for months at a time, because he thought the political right move was to make it out to be no big deal and issue small condemnations from the basement every so often. The "mostly peaceful" narrative was false enough to resonate with decent Americans. That was Biden's major fumble where it mattered. I know his supporters, and people begrudgingly voting for him when they would've preferred Sanders, want voters to weight pro-con columns and total them up to find Biden courts the far-left at 2 points less than Trump courts the far-right. It doesn't work that way. You take the stand and condemn the groups in no uncertain terms from the start, or you're just Trump-lite with none of the entertainment value. Biden literally decided he wouldn't go to Kenosha, criticized Trump for going Tuesday, then went Thursday. Tough luck; you copied Trump/Pence early denunciations of the violence later, then copied the visits later, and wants to be seen as ahead of Trump on policing and riots. And BLM was in my state chanting "Death to America" last week in Oakland, if people here think the "far-left rhetoric isn't as bad as far-right rhetoric" has a chance of catching voters' attention. Bonus: + Show Spoiler +I have spent the last three days speaking to almost every person I've seen on the streets in Kenosha and Racine and folks... I hate to break it to you... but nobody gives a shit about any of the scandals you're tweeting about
It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to describe how much they don't give a shit. It's like they give NEGATIVE shits.
There's this mentality on Twitter that's like "THIS one huge scandal will sink Trump with THIS group of voters" and I can conclusively report that this is bullshit
Here's why:
Many of the people who ~tweet about politics~ assume that voters behave according to a particular logic
Like: Trump insults women, therefore women will dislike Trump
or
Trump breaks the law, therefore "law and order" Rs will break from him
YOU THINK voter logic is like:
A > B > C >D
IN ACTUALITY, voter logic is more like:
A > Purple > Banana > 18
(this is true on both sides by the way, not just MAGA folks)
Also: the most pervasive bias in political coverage is not left vs. right it's "follows politics" vs. "doesn't follow politics"
By default, nearly everyone who covers politics falls into the "follows politics" category, which makes it really hard to understand people who don't
So a lot of people who think a lot about politics will be like WHAT ABOUT THE HATCH ACT and normal people are like... wtf are you talking about
Or politics people will be like "according to polls and modeling, if X% swing in Y direction then Z will happen" and normal people are like... whut
It's worth noting that man-on-the-street reporting is highly anecdotal! This is by no means a comprehensive analysis because it totally depends on who decides to talk to me.
But taken alongside polls and other data, it can be a helpful way to learn what's landing and what's not
One more point, re: EQ
A side effect of the data-fication of political expertise is that the people who can read polls are perceived to be smarter than the people who can read people.
So you have all these guys crunching numbers who aren't actually LISTENING to normal ppl
LISTENING means hearing what people are not saying as well as what they're saying.
LISTENING also means not ambushing voters like "but aren't you upset about X or Y?" or bullying them
LISTENING means making sure they feel like they're being heard and not judged
just saying there are a lot of politics dudes who love to talk and hate to listen
What is American far left? Probably centrists by European standards, traditional left "at worst", certainly very far away from an actual far left by European standards. On the other hand your far right is very much like ours and it stinks a lot. So it's not even a case of "far-left rhetoric isn't as bad as far-right rhetoric"
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@Danglars about your far right terrorism vs far left terrorism
www.csis.org
Some parts you might wanna read
+ Show Spoiler +As shown in Figure 2, data on the number of terrorist attacks and plots by perpetrator orientation indicate that right-wing terrorism not only accounts for the majority of incidents but has also grown in quantity over the past six years. This increase is reminiscent of the wave of right-wing activity in the 1990s that peaked with 43 right-wing incidents in 1995. The Oklahoma City bombing, which occurred on April 19, 1995, was the second-most deadly terrorist attack in U.S. history, after September 11, 2001. In three recent years—2016, 2017, and 2019—the number of right-wing terrorist events matched or exceeded the number in 1995, including a recent high of 53 right-wing terrorist incidents in 2017. Despite a moderate decrease in 2018 to 29 incidents, right-wing activity again increased in 2019 to 44 incidents. Religious attacks and plots have also shown some increases during this period—notably in 2015, 2017, and 2019—but at a significantly smaller magnitude than right-wing events. In analyzing fatalities from terrorist attacks, religious terrorism has killed the largest number of individuals—3,086 people—primarily due to the attacks on September 11, 2001, which caused 2,977 deaths.10 The magnitude of this death toll fundamentally shaped U.S. counterterrorism policy over the past two decades. In comparison, right-wing terrorist attacks caused 335 deaths, left-wing attacks caused 22 deaths, and ethnonationalist terrorists caused 5 deaths.
In short, far right terrorism in the rising star in the US in deaths and attacks.
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I just have to point out there's literally millions of potential voters to the left of Bernie and right of communism. Biden could easily win promising universal healthcare amid a pandemic and decriminalizing cannabis completely. Two mainstream majority supported positions that are extremely popular with his base.
Democrat centrism isn't a matter of enlightened electoral strategy, it's ideological and in opposition of many of the people they claim to represent. When those people point it out they are shamed for not accepting that as the best they can hope for (typically by people relatively comfortable with the status quo).
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On September 09 2020 09:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
I just have to point out there's literally millions of potential voters to the left of Bernie and right of communism. Biden could easily win promising universal healthcare amid a pandemic and decriminalizing cannabis completely. Two mainstream majority supported positions that are extremely popular with his base.
Democrat centrism isn't a matter of enlightened electoral strategy, it's ideological and in opposition of many of the people they claim to represent. When those people point it out they are shamed for not accepting that as the best they can hope for (typically by people relatively comfortable with the status quo).
Honestly, those two things would be enough for me to steel up on Biden and actually convince myself to firmly vote for him. It's such a popular position, it's such an easy thing to even just lie about! Saying you support something and doing fuck all about it is common in US politics. Part of what's souring on Joe Biden is he doesn't even want to pretend like he wants our votes. In some way I admire the forthrightness of prioritizing your corporate sponsors over the electorate and not trying to hide it. On the other hand guillotine?
Like a lot of people are grasping at straws to justify voting for his lame self (at least I am, I don't want to spend four years praying for RBG), we know the Supreme Court is in flux, we just can't fathom the hubris of taking our votes hostage and not even pretending like there's going to be any working with Progressives.
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Don't mind me, I'm just over here thinking about the mechanics of being a "pro-crime" judge.
Yes, Trump just said that at his North Carolina rally. Several other choice quotes I've seen suggest that this rally is even more off-the-rails than normal.
Like how does being a pro-crime judge work? Do they really like crimes and get excited when people commit them?
Judge: "So how do you plea to these charges of tax fraud?"
Defendant: "Guilty."
Judge: "AWESOME! What did you do with the money?"
Defendant: "I bought a sick Ferrari"
Judge: "Cool! Did you drive it really fast? Like... illegally fast?"
Defendant: "Oh definitely"
Judge: "YEEEEESSSSSSSSS"
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On September 09 2020 09:25 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 09:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
I just have to point out there's literally millions of potential voters to the left of Bernie and right of communism. Biden could easily win promising universal healthcare amid a pandemic and decriminalizing cannabis completely. Two mainstream majority supported positions that are extremely popular with his base.
Democrat centrism isn't a matter of enlightened electoral strategy, it's ideological and in opposition of many of the people they claim to represent. When those people point it out they are shamed for not accepting that as the best they can hope for (typically by people relatively comfortable with the status quo). Honestly, those two things would be enough for me to steel up on Biden and actually convince myself to firmly vote for him. It's such a popular position, it's such an easy thing to even just lie about! Saying you support something and doing fuck all about it is common in US politics. Part of what's souring on Joe Biden is he doesn't even want to pretend like he wants our votes. In some way I admire the forthrightness of prioritizing your corporate sponsors over the electorate and not trying to hide it. On the other hand guillotine? Like a lot of people are grasping at straws to justify voting for his lame self (at least I am, I don't want to spend four years praying for RBG), we know the Supreme Court is in flux, we just can't fathom the hubris of taking our votes hostage and not even pretending like there's going to be any working with Progressives.
fuckin a right!?
Not mine personally, but basically every other Dem candidate (save Bloomberg, who abandoned his promise to support the Dem nominee after he accomplished his stated goal of disrupting Sanders run, with the support of the party) was in the space between Biden and Sanders and Biden has only moved to the right since then.
"grasping at straws" is a generous descriptor though imo.
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On September 09 2020 09:38 Ben... wrote:Don't mind me, I'm just over here thinking about the mechanics of being a "pro-crime" judge. Yes, Trump just said that at his North Carolina rally. Several other choice quotes I've seen suggest that this rally is even more off-the-rails than normal. Like how does being a pro-crime judge work? Do they really like crimes and get excited when people commit them? Judge: "So how do you plea to these charges of tax fraud?" Defendant: "Guilty." Judge: "AWESOME! What did you do with the money?" Defendant: "I bought a sick Ferrari" Judge: "Cool! Did you drive it really fast? Like... illegally fast?" Defendant: "Oh definitely" Judge: "YEEEEESSSSSSSSS" Trying to decipher the mind of a crazy man is insanity in itself but I would guess that they like crime to happen so they stay busy sending people to jail??
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And some would say BLM is comparable to right wing terrorism....
This point really needs hammering home. BLM protests are peaceful, the right wing media trying to paint the movement as inherently violent is simply lies.
https://www.kgun9.com/news/america-in-crisis/93-of-black-lives-matter-protests-between-late-may-and-late-august-were-peaceful-group-says?fbclid=IwAR0EMXfFLNnTmkneFBzVvohtSiQMrUtyQbIUkVfuBnUDD83a7Qu8zZfC-lY
According to a report from the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (ACLED), there were nearly 8,000 demonstrations linked to the Black Lives Matter movement between May 26 and Aug. 22 — 93% of which were peaceful.
The ACLED, which sources information via reports from the media, reports from government and non-government agencies as well as targeted social media reports, says that Black Lives Matter protests took place in more than 2,000 locations — including in all 50 states — between late May and August. Most places that saw protests that devolved into riots also saw several other peaceful demonstrations.
The organization also notes that in places where riots were widespread, like Portland, that the vandalism was limited to the span of a few square blocks.
The ACLED's findings contradict the findings of pollsters, who report that as many as 42% of Americans believe most Black Lives Matter activists are "trying to incite violence or destroy property." The ACLED believes that disparity comes from "biased media framing" stemming from "disproportionate coverage of violent demonstrations."
And while BLM demonstrations have been largely peaceful, the ACLED reports that local governments have disproportionately responded with force. About 1 in 10 BLM protests were met with government intervention — a 6% increase when comparing government intervention in all other demonstrations. In half of those interventions, police used tear gas, rubber bullets, pepper spray or batons while attempting to force protesters to disperse.
While not the case in every violent protest, the ACLED reports that some riots were instigated by "agents provocateurs," or outside infiltrators. For example, a man with an umbrella who committed early acts of vandalism in Minneapolis has since been linked to Hells Angels.
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It's interesting how the very thing that started the protests, disproportionate use of force, is now documented as widespread in response to the protest. And yet the conversation has shifted almost entirely to the few acts of vandalism and violence committed by protesters. One thing I've been wondering is how much teargas do we have stockpiled? Because they've sure been using a lot of it.
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On September 09 2020 05:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 05:03 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 09 2020 04:54 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On September 09 2020 04:23 Danglars wrote:On September 09 2020 04:00 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Are we doing the usual ‘but what about Antifa?’ dance here?
While ostensibly of the left, what commonalities do the Biden camp and Antifa or the Black Bloc actually have? Of denizens of this particular thread (while not claiming he’s indulging in violence), GH is probably closest to these folks and what’s his opinion of Biden and the Dems?
Plenty of people, myself included have criticised the violence we’re seeing from the left as either immoral, politically counterproductive or both.
How have you not seen Republicans defend inflammatory rhetoric? The President is a pretty visible Republican, although in fairness the denizens of the legislature haven’t aped some of the worst of his rhetoric.
One notable difference between left wing agitation and these various right wing thugs is that the left’s isn’t sporting equivalent support of ‘their guy’, or wearing the left’s equivalent of MAGA caps.
They may not represent your views but they sure as hell are Trump supporters and outfit themselves accordingly.
But hey there’s no link to Trump here, and the two things are totally equivalent. If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. Why should that standard apply? One group is of the ostensible left, like Biden. There’s a notable lack of Biden support there. The other group are literally wearing pro-Trump gear so I’m not sure there’s an equivalency there. The outrage at the protests is a rhetorical exercise, a bad one, and nothing more. Otherwise you would see a much greater level of outrage when people drive their car into a crowd, send fake bombs to politicians, or shoot up a bunch of folk. Exactly. The reality in American politics right now and move them to a global scale the Republican's would be Far right. The Dem's would be Center Right spanning to center left. This is why there appears to be much more infighting in the Dems, Center left and center Right almost everywhere else don't have to get along so they dont. There are some clear and obvious reasons why those committing violence on the right are proud Trump supporters and the those committing violence on the left are not wearing Biden buttons.
Much of the rest of the world lean closely to socialist drivel - much of South America, Africa, South-Eastern Asia and China is worst of both bunches. Unless you think the rest of the world is the British Commonwealth states and Europe...
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On September 09 2020 12:03 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 11:48 Wegandi wrote:On September 09 2020 05:10 JimmiC wrote:On September 09 2020 05:03 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 09 2020 04:54 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On September 09 2020 04:23 Danglars wrote:On September 09 2020 04:00 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Are we doing the usual ‘but what about Antifa?’ dance here?
While ostensibly of the left, what commonalities do the Biden camp and Antifa or the Black Bloc actually have? Of denizens of this particular thread (while not claiming he’s indulging in violence), GH is probably closest to these folks and what’s his opinion of Biden and the Dems?
Plenty of people, myself included have criticised the violence we’re seeing from the left as either immoral, politically counterproductive or both.
How have you not seen Republicans defend inflammatory rhetoric? The President is a pretty visible Republican, although in fairness the denizens of the legislature haven’t aped some of the worst of his rhetoric.
One notable difference between left wing agitation and these various right wing thugs is that the left’s isn’t sporting equivalent support of ‘their guy’, or wearing the left’s equivalent of MAGA caps.
They may not represent your views but they sure as hell are Trump supporters and outfit themselves accordingly.
But hey there’s no link to Trump here, and the two things are totally equivalent. If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. Why should that standard apply? One group is of the ostensible left, like Biden. There’s a notable lack of Biden support there. The other group are literally wearing pro-Trump gear so I’m not sure there’s an equivalency there. The outrage at the protests is a rhetorical exercise, a bad one, and nothing more. Otherwise you would see a much greater level of outrage when people drive their car into a crowd, send fake bombs to politicians, or shoot up a bunch of folk. Exactly. The reality in American politics right now and move them to a global scale the Republican's would be Far right. The Dem's would be Center Right spanning to center left. This is why there appears to be much more infighting in the Dems, Center left and center Right almost everywhere else don't have to get along so they dont. There are some clear and obvious reasons why those committing violence on the right are proud Trump supporters and the those committing violence on the left are not wearing Biden buttons. Much of the rest of the world lean closely to socialist drivel - much of South America, Africa, South-Eastern Asia and China is worst of both bunches. Unless you think the rest of the world is the British Commonwealth states and Europe... No shit, that was the point. The Dems are not leftwing extremist because the dems, globally speaking are center right. Which is why the leftwing extremists in the USA are not Biden supporters, nor can he stop them. Now I don't know if Trump could stop it, but he clearly has influence and they sure as he'll are his supporters. Because the Republicans are a far right party. Are you caught up now? Eidt: TLDR left extremists hate Trump and Hate Biden. Right extremists hate Biden and love Trump. If you don't like violent extremists, you shouldn't like Trump. Even more so when you take into account how much more violence the right does in the USA.
I think my point went over your head. Any liberal society (in the classical sense) is going to be considered far-right compared to most of the world, plus when you're comparing polity within a country it's moot what the rest of the world is. What is it with "left-wing" folks and conformity / international drabness. I tend to suspect it's a tactic to appear legitimate like, look, 80% of the world does this thing, so we should too. Rarely argue the merits of the thing, always point to some majoritarian hook or to authority (and yeah, the other side does it too, but not as much).
Oooh, you support Lockean principles you far-right extremist. It's a stretch.
(Where would you place me on the political spectrum?)
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No, we also spend plenty of time talking about why things like universal healthcare and voting rights are superior. You just don't pay attention because you've already decided it's a conformity thing, and that it couldn't possibly be because it's just a good idea.
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On September 09 2020 13:44 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2020 12:03 JimmiC wrote:On September 09 2020 11:48 Wegandi wrote:On September 09 2020 05:10 JimmiC wrote:On September 09 2020 05:03 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 09 2020 04:54 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On September 09 2020 04:23 Danglars wrote:On September 09 2020 04:00 Wombat_NornIron wrote:
Are we doing the usual ‘but what about Antifa?’ dance here?
While ostensibly of the left, what commonalities do the Biden camp and Antifa or the Black Bloc actually have? Of denizens of this particular thread (while not claiming he’s indulging in violence), GH is probably closest to these folks and what’s his opinion of Biden and the Dems?
Plenty of people, myself included have criticised the violence we’re seeing from the left as either immoral, politically counterproductive or both.
How have you not seen Republicans defend inflammatory rhetoric? The President is a pretty visible Republican, although in fairness the denizens of the legislature haven’t aped some of the worst of his rhetoric.
One notable difference between left wing agitation and these various right wing thugs is that the left’s isn’t sporting equivalent support of ‘their guy’, or wearing the left’s equivalent of MAGA caps.
They may not represent your views but they sure as hell are Trump supporters and outfit themselves accordingly.
But hey there’s no link to Trump here, and the two things are totally equivalent. If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. Why should that standard apply? One group is of the ostensible left, like Biden. There’s a notable lack of Biden support there. The other group are literally wearing pro-Trump gear so I’m not sure there’s an equivalency there. The outrage at the protests is a rhetorical exercise, a bad one, and nothing more. Otherwise you would see a much greater level of outrage when people drive their car into a crowd, send fake bombs to politicians, or shoot up a bunch of folk. Exactly. The reality in American politics right now and move them to a global scale the Republican's would be Far right. The Dem's would be Center Right spanning to center left. This is why there appears to be much more infighting in the Dems, Center left and center Right almost everywhere else don't have to get along so they dont. There are some clear and obvious reasons why those committing violence on the right are proud Trump supporters and the those committing violence on the left are not wearing Biden buttons. Much of the rest of the world lean closely to socialist drivel - much of South America, Africa, South-Eastern Asia and China is worst of both bunches. Unless you think the rest of the world is the British Commonwealth states and Europe... No shit, that was the point. The Dems are not leftwing extremist because the dems, globally speaking are center right. Which is why the leftwing extremists in the USA are not Biden supporters, nor can he stop them. Now I don't know if Trump could stop it, but he clearly has influence and they sure as he'll are his supporters. Because the Republicans are a far right party. Are you caught up now? Eidt: TLDR left extremists hate Trump and Hate Biden. Right extremists hate Biden and love Trump. If you don't like violent extremists, you shouldn't like Trump. Even more so when you take into account how much more violence the right does in the USA. I think my point went over your head. Any liberal society (in the classical sense) is going to be considered far-right compared to most of the world, plus when you're comparing polity within a country it's moot what the rest of the world is. What is it with "left-wing" folks and conformity / international drabness. I tend to suspect it's a tactic to appear legitimate like, look, 80% of the world does this thing, so we should too. Rarely argue the merits of the thing, always point to some majoritarian hook or to authority (and yeah, the other side does it too, but not as much). Oooh, you support Lockean principles you far-right extremist. It's a stretch. (Where would you place me on the political spectrum?)
Wait what? Are you saying, that everyone to the left of Biden is a violent extremist because in the US the spectrum is further right? Because the point was that there is no party in the US that "owns" anarchists and communists, that do exist, just with low numbers. Just because american society is further right then the rest of the world does not mean that the people willing to use force to change the society suddenly start with people asking for paid paternal leave or something like that. There is a pretty high threshhold needed for people to try to overthrow the system by force and it probably starts at comparable points across equally rich nations.
Neo Nazis seem to be part of the political spectrum right now in the US, they have representation or at least toleration. Anarchists are not. Communists are not. Socialist are not. Social democrats do have representation , but they tend to not be willing to use force or violently overthrow your society, despite being on the left of everyone else.
And you, my good sir, are certainly the the right of the American spectrum, but i have to admit that your libertarian ideology is so far from what i consider normal, that i have no idea where to put you.
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EPT
