EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2612
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27405 Posts
On September 09 2020 02:38 Nevuk wrote: Antifa also hasn't marched under a "we should assassinate republicans" banner. Last I checked they haven’t been running around on a ‘we love Joe Biden’ platform either. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On September 09 2020 01:38 Danglars wrote: You understand that the much-disparaged arguments connecting Antifa, Black Bloc, and various left wing groups to Biden also subsist on "all very very nice people, since of course they will vote for one of the candidates. Guess who?" Unless you welcome the comparison, with all the burning buildings, and threats against police and restaurant patrons, and general lefty white guys yelling at black business owners and black cops. I haven't seen any calls to assassinate Trump. And you haven't seen me defending rioters and property destruction (though I believe property is/should be insured and can be rebuilt, while a life can't, so these are my priority). Nearly every protest has looters, sadly. It's not an excuse to charge down the whole protest though and say the message brings ruin and destruction. You're ignoring the main part of my post : open calls to murder with absolutely no reaction. I don't believe free speech allows that. Show me republican posts repudiating these voters who had "Trump 2020" shirts ? | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 09 2020 02:20 Broetchenholer wrote: One candidate is openly courting "his" extremists, the other is not. Even if you see neo nazis and antifa as similarly bad, only one parties stance is plenty of good people on both sides, besides the other side consists of terrorists. Why do you feel the need to defend right wing extremists at all? You have claimed multiple times, that you neither belong to the described groups, nor are you a fan of trump? So why the reflexive what about ism? Why don’t you just come out and say that “who they’re going to vote for” is an illegitimate criticism? I’m sure you have your reasons for saying Trump is openly courting these guys, just as I have mine for Biden excusing and both-sides-ing the violence. That isn’t what the post I quote responded to alleged, so I’d appreciate some comment on the subject even if you wish to move on to others. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 09 2020 02:47 Nouar wrote: I haven't seen any calls to assassinate Trump. And you haven't seen me defending rioters and property destruction (though I believe property is/should be insured and can be rebuilt, while a life can't, so these are my priority). Nearly every protest has looters, sadly. It's not an excuse to charge down the whole protest though and say the message brings ruin and destruction. You're ignoring the main part of my post : open calls to murder with absolutely no reaction. I don't believe free speech allows that. Show me republican posts repudiating these voters who had "Trump 2020" shirts ? I saw the far left and not the far right burning down city centers and courthouses from Oregon to Wisconsin. I saw far left organizers with BLM flags calling for attacks on the cops in DC. They demanded the black power fist from patrons in Pennsylvania and DC. And Biden only issued a statement after internal polling showed it was dragging him down. Pity he didn’t speak up sooner. I don’t support groups that call for murder of any political figures. Incitement to violence against individuals, when meant, is a valid exception to free speech principles, as I think you’re aware. I haven’t seen Republicans defend that rhetoric. I have seen mostly silence and excusing of the 100% Antifa guy shooting a Patriot Prayer guy in Portland, compared to all the Rittenhouse accusers. Both Trump and Pelosi have done dangerous rhetoric, in Pelosi’s case, calling Trump and Republicans “enemies of the state.” Does that rhetoric meet your approval. I have seen Democrat Maxine Waters call for challenging people to “ get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them, and you tell them they're not welcome anymore, anywhere.” Democrats own that, and can you acknowledge and decry it when its Democratic politicians doing the instigating? I do have my doubts in the free-for-all that is “but Trump” justifies all behavior. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27405 Posts
While ostensibly of the left, what commonalities do the Biden camp and Antifa or the Black Bloc actually have? Of denizens of this particular thread (while not claiming he’s indulging in violence), GH is probably closest to these folks and what’s his opinion of Biden and the Dems? Plenty of people, myself included have criticised the violence we’re seeing from the left as either immoral, politically counterproductive or both. How have you not seen Republicans defend inflammatory rhetoric? The President is a pretty visible Republican, although in fairness the denizens of the legislature haven’t aped some of the worst of his rhetoric. One notable difference between left wing agitation and these various right wing thugs is that the left’s isn’t sporting equivalent support of ‘their guy’, or wearing the left’s equivalent of MAGA caps. They may not represent your views but they sure as hell are Trump supporters and outfit themselves accordingly. But hey there’s no link to Trump here, and the two things are totally equivalent. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27405 Posts
On September 09 2020 03:53 JimmiC wrote: Can you quote anyone from this thread excusing the guy who shot the Patriot Prayer guy? I have seen more than one person defend Rittenhouse, yourself included. I mean the Trump stuff is just embarrassingly hypocritical you have a guy both stumping for law and order, while telling his supporters to break the law and vote twice. And there is 100 other examples. This is one of the many examples where the bad of the dems and the bad of the reps don't equal out. Honesty from you would be a nice change, but the likelihood of that would be equivalent to some honesty from the president. Two peas in a pod. I fucking defended Rittenhouse pending details in the forthcoming court case, as perhaps it was an ill-advised trip but that it may have been a case of self-defence based on what happened on the ground. My opinion of Rittenhouse based on what I know is he’s probably some idealistic kid being told that leftists were destroying America or something, went to do something about it and got caught in a situation out of his competency zone. And hey people are dead. That ‘mission statement’ being the purview of conservative media outlets and Trump himself, and at whose door I firmly pin the blame. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 09 2020 04:00 Wombat_NornIron wrote: Are we doing the usual ‘but what about Antifa?’ dance here? While ostensibly of the left, what commonalities do the Biden camp and Antifa or the Black Bloc actually have? Of denizens of this particular thread (while not claiming he’s indulging in violence), GH is probably closest to these folks and what’s his opinion of Biden and the Dems? Plenty of people, myself included have criticised the violence we’re seeing from the left as either immoral, politically counterproductive or both. How have you not seen Republicans defend inflammatory rhetoric? The President is a pretty visible Republican, although in fairness the denizens of the legislature haven’t aped some of the worst of his rhetoric. One notable difference between left wing agitation and these various right wing thugs is that the left’s isn’t sporting equivalent support of ‘their guy’, or wearing the left’s equivalent of MAGA caps. They may not represent your views but they sure as hell are Trump supporters and outfit themselves accordingly. But hey there’s no link to Trump here, and the two things are totally equivalent. If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27405 Posts
On September 09 2020 04:23 Danglars wrote: If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. Why should that standard apply? One group is of the ostensible left, like Biden. There’s a notable lack of Biden support there. The other group are literally wearing pro-Trump gear so I’m not sure there’s an equivalency there. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9999 Posts
On September 09 2020 04:54 Wombat_NornIron wrote: Why should that standard apply? One group is of the ostensible left, like Biden. There’s a notable lack of Biden support there. The other group are literally wearing pro-Trump gear so I’m not sure there’s an equivalency there. The outrage at the protests is a rhetorical exercise, a bad one, and nothing more. Otherwise you would see a much greater level of outrage when people drive their car into a crowd, send fake bombs to politicians, or shoot up a bunch of folk. And before I get accused of whataboutism I don't see rioting and murder as equivalent. Right wing extremists are guilty of much greater and more frequent crimes than BLM protestors. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On September 09 2020 04:23 Danglars wrote: If you said who these extremist are likely to vote for, you better believe I’m going to ask if that standard applies to Biden as well as Trump. You did read that post, right? The connection to the Biden camp is firstmost his staff’s bailouts for the arrested rioters. Kamala herself also encouraged the movement. Get the violent types out of jail; we are the Democratic Party. My twitter bio says I am in charge of Biden’s X part of the campaign, now let’s go put that assaulter back on the streets. Note also that Biden has not condemned Antifa by name after one pledged to their cause murdered another in the street on video. Antifa and related far left groups have a fun plug-and-play ideology to justify violence. It doesn’t require central leadership. Just little clubs in urban centers. They go on to Molotov and throw bricks at police, business owners, and random passerby. I don’t really care if it’s less of a dress code (non black bloc at least) and more of a distributed justification for street violence. I’ve seen the Antifa and BLM flags flying at violent riots. It doesn’t matter if Biden choosing to not wave the flag, so long as his team and Kamala bail them out of jail and denounce acts and both sides instead of groups. ? But the far-left and antifa are not supporting Biden per-se, and Biden is not endorsing rioting ? While Trump is definitely coveting these guys, openly retweeting their leaders or some theories, calling them "very nice people", and most of those guys are hardcore Trump supporters, how can you compare ? Should I also remind you that the Trump administration just published a report citing far-right extremists are THE main domestic terrorism threat in the US, and didn't even mention antifa ? And that they accounted for a large portion of the killings ? “Among DVE [domestic violent extremist] actors, WSEs [white supremacist extremists] conducted half of all lethal attacks (8 of 16), resulting in the majority of deaths (39 of 48),” the drafts read. from the report I posted the other day. Your previous talking about Rittenhouse and that other far-left guy who murdered a guy, opened fire on cops and got killed... Did you even see someone defending that guy here ? Rittenhouse behaved illegaly, put himself in a dangerous position on purpose, had to kill people to get out. You can't really say he used legal ways to defend himself since he was behaving illegally by possessing a gun in the first place but hey... the courts will judge if he looked for it or defended himself, not me. But you can't really compare the response here. Nobody defended that antifa guy to my knowledge, while the president was all about defending the vigilantes even while not having all the facts. One side is endorsing protests against the police murdering black guys, and refusing violence (while some mayors are acting strangely, not arresting exactly who they should, I'll grant you that). They may have people endorsing shouting at opponents in the street or in front of their home, which might make these guys uncomfortable away from their ivory tower, I'll grant you that. That's kinda the point and not illegal per-se, as long as it's not pure harrassment (hey, it's your 1st amendment which the right is so proud of...) One side is endorsing and cozying up to the most domestic violent extremist population of the US, and is proud of it. They are letting their supporters wish opponents dead on a plaza at a rally, no problem. They are ALSO having masked armed guys in capitols in front of opposing lawmakers' doors, which is a LOT more threatening that shouting at you. Tough choice really ? | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On September 09 2020 05:03 Jockmcplop wrote: The outrage at the protests is a rhetorical exercise, a bad one, and nothing more. Otherwise you would see a much greater level of outrage when people drive their car into a crowd, send fake bombs to politicians, or shoot up a bunch of folk. And before I get accused of whataboutism I don't see rioting and murder as equivalent. Right wing extremists are guilty of much greater and more frequent crimes than BLM protestors. I would also point out the tactic of equivocating vandalism of property with murder as a way of conveniently painting this as a "both sides" issue, when there is very clearly only one side openly calling for harm and death on their political opponents, radicalized under a leader who whitewashes them as "very fine people". | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1967 Posts
On September 09 2020 03:36 Danglars wrote: Why don’t you just come out and say that “who they’re going to vote for” is an illegitimate criticism? I’m sure you have your reasons for saying Trump is openly courting these guys, just as I have mine for Biden excusing and both-sides-ing the violence. That isn’t what the post I quote responded to alleged, so I’d appreciate some comment on the subject even if you wish to move on to others. Who they are voting for is only then an illegitimate criticism if the candidate is not openly encouraging them to vote for them. Of course you can criticize a candidate for their voters if the candidate does not distance itself from them. Nazis are voting for me? I don't want Nazi votes. Nazis are bad. My policy does not reflect the view of Nazis. And if that is true, that is all you have to do. And when you realize that nazis have voted you into office, you can step down. This happened to a politician on state level in germany last year. That in a two party system both parties will get votes from the fringes from society, you cannot change that, but you are very responsible for those voters and how you treat them. So, why again do you believe it is valid to deflect from this story? How is what they did not bad? Why is it worth defending? | ||
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pmh
1416 Posts
On September 09 2020 03:36 Danglars wrote: Why don’t you just come out and say that “who they’re going to vote for” is an illegitimate criticism? I’m sure you have your reasons for saying Trump is openly courting these guys, just as I have mine for Biden excusing and both-sides-ing the violence. That isn’t what the post I quote responded to alleged, so I’d appreciate some comment on the subject even if you wish to move on to others. Biden really is in a though spot due to the protests,at least they did accomplish that lol. Like he needs the votes of the more extreme left wing elements but at the same time most of the people in the midle dont have much sympathy for the way some of the protests are going and are getting woried about their safety,and those are votes he can not do without either. He has to please both groups so he is both-sides-ing but it has become quiet difficult to maintain that aproach. Maybe thats why media like cnn are starting to report less and less on the protests as a whole. For biden i think it would probably be best to give up on trying to win over the more extreme left wing elements and take a clear stance against the violent protests while at the same time keeping the message that he will improve the situation for POC,though that is kinda difficult since its such a thin line between violent protests and non violent protests. I dont think he can completely ignore the issue either,its one of trumps main campaign points that will probably be a big talking point in the debates. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1967 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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