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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Trump consistently manages to be worse than you could possibly have imagined, even taking into account your knowledge that he will be worse than you could possibly have imagined - Paul Krugman
Same is true for the republican party.
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On August 23 2020 00:52 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2020 14:51 Doublemint wrote:During a global pandemic that is still ravaging too many places in the US it is rather prudent to have the choice to vote by mail. It's easy, it's safe - don't forget that a huge portion of the electorate is boomer material and/or not in the best shape, two factors not in your favor in case you get infected( BBC) Data says its pretty damn secure as well. ReutersIncidentally NOW seems to be the perfect time to make sweeping changes( among "other cuts" - removing 671 sorting machines, roughly 10 percent of the inventory via @ Fox) to the institution crucial to delivering the ballots safely so they can be checked and counted. Months ahead of of the election. And with everything else going on like around a thousand people dying EVERY SINGLE DAY in the US due to the virus( Covidtracker), an economy in the tank, RECORD unemployment, and if there won't be any deal reached for another stimulus round in the near future in Congress I would imagine actual social unrest and chaos... THIS seems to be the priority. Oh and then there is this person in the oval office that's about as helpful in a crisis as gout. Shitposting from the sidelines about imaginary voter fraud and an impending election chaos one can't help but notice he not only appears to be warning about, but actually being involved in making it a reality. ( Fox) Thanks for the sources. I'm hesitant to assume a nefarious conspiracy based on general distrust of Trump, when it might still be the case that the USPS is capable of operating at full capacity even with less mail sorting machines. It has the smell of being another media-driven story, in line with Russian collusion and Russian bounties.
So, you mean, postmen having to do a lot of extra hours to complete the delivery routes at the advertised times (over even having to run it twice a day) means the USPS might be running under capacity ?
So it makes sense to forbid extra hours to postmen because there is no money, as well as removing sorting machines so mail has to be processed manually, while the workers were already unable to do their work during the regular schedule ?
That might be stretching things a bit. These are cost-cutting measures while the system is already unable to cope as-is, and it happens at the worst time (as EVERYTHING under Trump), just when the president is complaining that ballots arrive sometimes several days late due to USPS delays and that mail-in ballots allow all sort of tampering.
He has become a master at having things appear to be conspiracies, even if they're not. So excuse people for wondering...
It MAY be the case the it's able to operate at full capacity. When do you want to test it and find out ? On D-day when Trump refuses the results due to USPS delays ? Or do you want to ensure that you don't have a constitutional crisis at hand and delays the overhaul for a few months...
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On August 23 2020 00:52 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2020 14:51 Doublemint wrote:During a global pandemic that is still ravaging too many places in the US it is rather prudent to have the choice to vote by mail. It's easy, it's safe - don't forget that a huge portion of the electorate is boomer material and/or not in the best shape, two factors not in your favor in case you get infected( BBC) Data says its pretty damn secure as well. ReutersIncidentally NOW seems to be the perfect time to make sweeping changes( among "other cuts" - removing 671 sorting machines, roughly 10 percent of the inventory via @ Fox) to the institution crucial to delivering the ballots safely so they can be checked and counted. Months ahead of of the election. And with everything else going on like around a thousand people dying EVERY SINGLE DAY in the US due to the virus( Covidtracker), an economy in the tank, RECORD unemployment, and if there won't be any deal reached for another stimulus round in the near future in Congress I would imagine actual social unrest and chaos... THIS seems to be the priority. Oh and then there is this person in the oval office that's about as helpful in a crisis as gout. Shitposting from the sidelines about imaginary voter fraud and an impending election chaos one can't help but notice he not only appears to be warning about, but actually being involved in making it a reality. ( Fox) Thanks for the sources. I'm hesitant to assume a nefarious conspiracy based on general distrust of Trump, when it might still be the case that the USPS is capable of operating at full capacity even with less mail sorting machines. It has the smell of being another media-driven story, in line with Russian collusion and Russian bounties.
No problem. A healthy portion of scepticism is totally warranted when consuming media sources, though your two examples are anything but "just media driven", there's some meat on them bones.
I would for example just read the first 10 or so pages of the recent Senate intelligence report(beware, 1000 pages and for a pdf rather big file.)
The willingness was there, the contacts on a lot of levels. Even exchange of information and timings of when to release which hacked docs. That it did not rise to the required level of the legal definition (debatable even) is in light of this kinda beside the point.
I am not trying to say Trump won because Russia Russia, that's another point entirely and one I have no interest in discussing any further as it is history now. We should learn from that precedent and how to react rather.
I am just wondering what they have got in store this election season, what kind of deep fakes? How will the (social) media channels react to it, the voters.
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The mail sorting machine removal(and destruction in some cases)is absurd. It's absolutely tampering and sabotage of the post office, even if it wasn't in relation to the election. Taking a machine offline because it's unused is easy. There's a power button or emergency stop. Disassembly and trashing of the machines is just ridiculous.
These machines are million dollar investments that can accurately sort mid-5 digit pieces of mail every hour, for as long as you keep it fed and emptied regularly.
A really skilled worker, who takes 10 seconds(really optimistic) to sort a piece of mail into the exact spot needs to go, could do 360 pieces per hour. You would need 100 of these skilled workers, paying overtime since the machine doesn't stop working unless it breaks, to cover one machine.
Alternatively, you pay a small team of technicians(say $300 an hour), compared to 100 workers($3000 an hour) who can maintain the machines. Make a million dollars back in 370 hours, or just over a month at 12 hours each day.
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It's amazing to me what a huge return Russia has gotten on what was probably a very small investment of resources. After decades of wanting to separate the US and Europe it just took some social media hustling, leaked documents, and a demoralized US populace to elect the golden goose. If I were them I would be much more aggressive and liberal with the spending this time around.
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On August 23 2020 02:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2020 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:On August 23 2020 01:16 JimmiC wrote:On August 23 2020 00:52 Doodsmack wrote:On August 22 2020 14:51 Doublemint wrote:During a global pandemic that is still ravaging too many places in the US it is rather prudent to have the choice to vote by mail. It's easy, it's safe - don't forget that a huge portion of the electorate is boomer material and/or not in the best shape, two factors not in your favor in case you get infected( BBC) Data says its pretty damn secure as well. ReutersIncidentally NOW seems to be the perfect time to make sweeping changes( among "other cuts" - removing 671 sorting machines, roughly 10 percent of the inventory via @ Fox) to the institution crucial to delivering the ballots safely so they can be checked and counted. Months ahead of of the election. And with everything else going on like around a thousand people dying EVERY SINGLE DAY in the US due to the virus( Covidtracker), an economy in the tank, RECORD unemployment, and if there won't be any deal reached for another stimulus round in the near future in Congress I would imagine actual social unrest and chaos... THIS seems to be the priority. Oh and then there is this person in the oval office that's about as helpful in a crisis as gout. Shitposting from the sidelines about imaginary voter fraud and an impending election chaos one can't help but notice he not only appears to be warning about, but actually being involved in making it a reality. ( Fox) Thanks for the sources. I'm hesitant to assume a nefarious conspiracy based on general distrust of Trump, when it might still be the case that the USPS is capable of operating at full capacity even with less mail sorting machines. It has the smell of being another media-driven story, in line with Russian collusion and Russian bounties. The timing of Trump talking about massive mail fraud in elections (which a federal judge has ruled he has to prove), then reducing funding right ahead of the election is just the way Trump does things. Setting himself up for a excuse if he loses, with just enough deniability that people already support him will continue too. At best it is a moronic decision given mail/packages are higher than normal because of the pandemic, and mail will be super important for the election months away. At worst it is a long game to dispute the elections and try to retain power. I think this idea that trump is going to try to retain power is itself another conspiracy theory about him. Sure, trump has said some odd things about not accepting the results. But the Worst case scenario is that he's tweeting from the WH until Biden takes the oath of office and orders the relevant authorities to remove trump from the premises. This administration has shown me that when I think there's a political rock bottom that there is always a better, stronger shovel to be found. Taking unreasonable scenarios and discarding them as highly impractical only applies in reasonable times. Hell, I saw an article where Biden called Trump as going to mess with the USPS to fudge the election months ago and got blasted for it, only for them to update the story with current actual USPS fudge production.
Here's the NYT out with a new USPS story, stating that Mnuchin was involved in the shakeup. The NYT wants its readers to reflexively believe that this implicates Mnuchin in a conspiracy. But in fact the story only provides evidence that the reform plan preceded the covid outbreak. Mnuchin met with some people in February to talk about reforms. From what I can tell there is absolutely nothing nefarious about the meeting, and it's probably perfectly fine for the administration to express its views to the postal service board of governors on what should happen with the service. All would agree that the service has problems, so it stands to reason that reform is warranted.
Sounds to me like the coincidence of timing gave the media an opportunity to claim conspiracy.
Mnuchin Paved Way for Postal Service Shake-Up https://nyti.ms/2QfR7Tt
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On August 23 2020 03:15 Starlightsun wrote:
It's amazing to me what a huge return Russia has gotten on what was probably a very small investment of resources. After decades of wanting to separate the US and Europe it just took some social media hustling, leaked documents, and a demoralized US populace to elect the golden goose. If I were them I would be much more aggressive and liberal with the spending this time around.
You know, this part didn't just happen. It might be tough to see the ugly side of the country from afar, but it was certainly always there - it just finally found its way to the surface. And while it might be more expedient to blame the foreign devil for tipping the scales a little bit, they didn't create the underlying situation that made this mess possible in the first place.
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On August 23 2020 03:25 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2020 03:15 Starlightsun wrote:
It's amazing to me what a huge return Russia has gotten on what was probably a very small investment of resources. After decades of wanting to separate the US and Europe it just took some social media hustling, leaked documents, and a demoralized US populace to elect the golden goose. If I were them I would be much more aggressive and liberal with the spending this time around. You know, this part didn't just happen. It might be tough to see the ugly side of the country from afar, but it was certainly always there - it just finally found its way to the surface. And while it might be more expedient to blame the foreign devil for tipping the scales a little bit, they didn't create the underlying situation that made this mess possible in the first place.
I didn't mean that they were solely responsible. Obviously the conditions were ripe. It's just that from their point of view it is a wonderful gift.
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Absolutely correct, the ugliness was always there. Weaponizing it this expertly by abusing the freedoms granted though is unprecedented. And with social media the reach is near unlimited.
The actual beauty of it is how they made it seem so organic. IIRC I also posted about it in the past with a fascinating WaPo article.
//edit: Russian trolls can be surprisingly subtle, and often fun to read
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On August 23 2020 02:25 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2020 00:52 Doodsmack wrote:On August 22 2020 14:51 Doublemint wrote:During a global pandemic that is still ravaging too many places in the US it is rather prudent to have the choice to vote by mail. It's easy, it's safe - don't forget that a huge portion of the electorate is boomer material and/or not in the best shape, two factors not in your favor in case you get infected( BBC) Data says its pretty damn secure as well. ReutersIncidentally NOW seems to be the perfect time to make sweeping changes( among "other cuts" - removing 671 sorting machines, roughly 10 percent of the inventory via @ Fox) to the institution crucial to delivering the ballots safely so they can be checked and counted. Months ahead of of the election. And with everything else going on like around a thousand people dying EVERY SINGLE DAY in the US due to the virus( Covidtracker), an economy in the tank, RECORD unemployment, and if there won't be any deal reached for another stimulus round in the near future in Congress I would imagine actual social unrest and chaos... THIS seems to be the priority. Oh and then there is this person in the oval office that's about as helpful in a crisis as gout. Shitposting from the sidelines about imaginary voter fraud and an impending election chaos one can't help but notice he not only appears to be warning about, but actually being involved in making it a reality. ( Fox) Thanks for the sources. I'm hesitant to assume a nefarious conspiracy based on general distrust of Trump, when it might still be the case that the USPS is capable of operating at full capacity even with less mail sorting machines. It has the smell of being another media-driven story, in line with Russian collusion and Russian bounties. So, you mean, postmen having to do a lot of extra hours to complete the delivery routes at the advertised times (over even having to run it twice a day) means the USPS might be running under capacity ? So it makes sense to forbid extra hours to postmen because there is no money, as well as removing sorting machines so mail has to be processed manually, while the workers were already unable to do their work during the regular schedule ? That might be stretching things a bit. These are cost-cutting measures while the system is already unable to cope as-is, and it happens at the worst time (as EVERYTHING under Trump), just when the president is complaining that ballots arrive sometimes several days late due to USPS delays and that mail-in ballots allow all sort of tampering. He has become a master at having things appear to be conspiracies, even if they're not. So excuse people for wondering... It MAY be the case the it's able to operate at full capacity. When do you want to test it and find out ? On D-day when Trump refuses the results due to USPS delays ? Or do you want to ensure that you don't have a constitutional crisis at hand and delays the overhaul for a few months...
Overtime was required even before the removal of sorting machines in order to get all mail delivered - and it it wasn't like every mailperson worked over time every day, just when their route had a higher than usual volume of mail.
On August 23 2020 03:19 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2020 02:20 Gahlo wrote:On August 23 2020 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:On August 23 2020 01:16 JimmiC wrote:On August 23 2020 00:52 Doodsmack wrote:On August 22 2020 14:51 Doublemint wrote:During a global pandemic that is still ravaging too many places in the US it is rather prudent to have the choice to vote by mail. It's easy, it's safe - don't forget that a huge portion of the electorate is boomer material and/or not in the best shape, two factors not in your favor in case you get infected( BBC) Data says its pretty damn secure as well. ReutersIncidentally NOW seems to be the perfect time to make sweeping changes( among "other cuts" - removing 671 sorting machines, roughly 10 percent of the inventory via @ Fox) to the institution crucial to delivering the ballots safely so they can be checked and counted. Months ahead of of the election. And with everything else going on like around a thousand people dying EVERY SINGLE DAY in the US due to the virus( Covidtracker), an economy in the tank, RECORD unemployment, and if there won't be any deal reached for another stimulus round in the near future in Congress I would imagine actual social unrest and chaos... THIS seems to be the priority. Oh and then there is this person in the oval office that's about as helpful in a crisis as gout. Shitposting from the sidelines about imaginary voter fraud and an impending election chaos one can't help but notice he not only appears to be warning about, but actually being involved in making it a reality. ( Fox) Thanks for the sources. I'm hesitant to assume a nefarious conspiracy based on general distrust of Trump, when it might still be the case that the USPS is capable of operating at full capacity even with less mail sorting machines. It has the smell of being another media-driven story, in line with Russian collusion and Russian bounties. The timing of Trump talking about massive mail fraud in elections (which a federal judge has ruled he has to prove), then reducing funding right ahead of the election is just the way Trump does things. Setting himself up for a excuse if he loses, with just enough deniability that people already support him will continue too. At best it is a moronic decision given mail/packages are higher than normal because of the pandemic, and mail will be super important for the election months away. At worst it is a long game to dispute the elections and try to retain power. I think this idea that trump is going to try to retain power is itself another conspiracy theory about him. Sure, trump has said some odd things about not accepting the results. But the Worst case scenario is that he's tweeting from the WH until Biden takes the oath of office and orders the relevant authorities to remove trump from the premises. This administration has shown me that when I think there's a political rock bottom that there is always a better, stronger shovel to be found. Taking unreasonable scenarios and discarding them as highly impractical only applies in reasonable times. Hell, I saw an article where Biden called Trump as going to mess with the USPS to fudge the election months ago and got blasted for it, only for them to update the story with current actual USPS fudge production. Here's the NYT out with a new USPS story, stating that Mnuchin was involved in the shakeup. The NYT wants its readers to reflexively believe that this implicates Mnuchin in a conspiracy. But in fact the story only provides evidence that the reform plan preceded the covid outbreak. Mnuchin met with some people in February to talk about reforms. From what I can tell there is absolutely nothing nefarious about the meeting, and it's probably perfectly fine for the administration to express its views to the postal service board of governors on what should happen with the service. All would agree that the service has problems, so it stands to reason that reform is warranted. Sounds to me like the coincidence of timing gave the media an opportunity to claim conspiracy. Mnuchin Paved Way for Postal Service Shake-Up https://nyti.ms/2QfR7Tt
Correct. The timing is what's suspicious. It's incredibly suspicious, in fact.
It's a massive dereliction of duty even if there is no conspiracy, though.
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United Kingdom10026 Posts
On August 23 2020 03:52 JimmiC wrote:
It probably should be pointed out that it has been proven that Russia effected the election with their trolls, bots and so on. This is why even GOP NSA people and so on get so mad when Trump takes Putins word over his own agents word.
What has not been proven is that Trump had anything to do with this.
Russia absolutely ran a organized campaign to try to get Trump elected.
Do you think they have been running campaigns to get democrats elected?
What about supporting Bernie, do you think that they tried that?
You would think that if socialist policy would weaken America's economy, that's what Russia would want more than anything.
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On August 23 2020 04:14 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2020 03:52 JimmiC wrote:
It probably should be pointed out that it has been proven that Russia effected the election with their trolls, bots and so on. This is why even GOP NSA people and so on get so mad when Trump takes Putins word over his own agents word.
What has not been proven is that Trump had anything to do with this.
Russia absolutely ran a organized campaign to try to get Trump elected. Do you think they have been running campaigns to get democrats elected? What about supporting Bernie, do you think that they tried that? You would think that if socialist policy would weaken America's economy, that's what Russia would want more than anything.
If the goal is destabalizing the US internally and their relationships externally, Trump accomplishes that a whole lot faster in theory and in practice
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On August 23 2020 04:14 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2020 03:52 JimmiC wrote:
It probably should be pointed out that it has been proven that Russia effected the election with their trolls, bots and so on. This is why even GOP NSA people and so on get so mad when Trump takes Putins word over his own agents word.
What has not been proven is that Trump had anything to do with this.
Russia absolutely ran a organized campaign to try to get Trump elected. Do you think they have been running campaigns to get democrats elected? What about supporting Bernie, do you think that they tried that? You would think that if socialist policy would weaken America's economy, that's what Russia would want more than anything. Did they run Bernie ads? very possible.
Did Bernie work with them in an attempt to win? I'd bet a lot he didn't.
Trump can't stop the Russians running ads in his favour on his own accord. But he sure could chose not to work with them.
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On August 23 2020 03:39 Doublemint wrote:Absolutely correct, the ugliness was always there. Weaponizing it this expertly by abusing the freedoms granted though is unprecedented. And with social media the reach is near unlimited.
The actual beauty of it is how they made it seem so organic. IIRC I also posted about it in the past with a fascinating WaPo article. //edit: Russian trolls can be surprisingly subtle, and often fun to read
Oh god, we're back to how masterful the Bernie coloring book,Trump vs Satan ads, and pointing out 1+1 = 2 were...
Do people think Russia is exponentially better at influencing elections/kindling divisions and stuff than the NSA/CIA/etc or what?
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On August 23 2020 06:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2020 06:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 23 2020 03:39 Doublemint wrote:Absolutely correct, the ugliness was always there. Weaponizing it this expertly by abusing the freedoms granted though is unprecedented. And with social media the reach is near unlimited.
The actual beauty of it is how they made it seem so organic. IIRC I also posted about it in the past with a fascinating WaPo article. //edit: Russian trolls can be surprisingly subtle, and often fun to read Oh god, we're back to how masterful the Bernie coloring book,Trump vs Satan ads, and pointing out 1+1 = 2 were... Do people think Russia is exponentially better at influencing elections/kindling divisions and stuff than the NSA/CIA/etc or what? I do not, probably very similar. Do you not think the US has influenced other countries elections?
That would be pathetic given their relative size, budgets, and available tech.
Of course they have. They've openly admitted to it several times. Up to and including helping to forcibly remove democratically elected leaders (you can think of Chile specifically)
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EPT
