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On May 30 2020 12:25 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 12:22 Starlightsun wrote:On May 30 2020 12:05 Mohdoo wrote:On May 30 2020 12:00 Starlightsun wrote:
I just wonder will they be able to affect change without leadership and concrete demands? History has shown riots to be the most effective form of social change. Many, many times. If enough people get angry, things change, as they always have. That's why you're seeing such a big effort to make sure this doesn't balloon. Once critical mass is reached, all the government can do is kneel. I hope you are right. I am right about history, only question is how big this gets. If it fizzles, probably nothing happens
Yes, it's a shame our history is taught so poorly. The reason people have weekends is because workers literally fought to the death on the streets with police/government sponsored gangs. I can't expect anything less from government when people demand their rights in this instance.
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On May 30 2020 14:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 14:27 puppykiller wrote:
I agree that police murders of unarmed people are unacceptable. I agree many cops have an irrational fear when making arrests. I also agree that some number of cops clearly have an irrational fear of black men which leads them to treat them in an inhumane way. What I don't like is when one of these idiot cops kills someone and it validates an entire narrative condemning all police, which then in turn leads people to seek outlandish levels of retribution against people that vocally support their cause. That's where the disconnect is. No one is condemning all police. They are condemning the good ones that stand by and do nothing. They are condemning the "no investigate our own" fraternity that is perpetuated around the country. They want people who are vocally on their side, to actually do something besides send thoughts and prayers. To do something more than pay lip service.
Ok I completely agree with this so we can call this common ground.
I don't know about the "no one is condemning all police" thing though. I mean it only took me a second to find this guy. Lots of vague hyperbolic statements here
On May 30 2020 14:41 StalkerTL wrote:
There’s absolutely no reason for minorities to hand an olive branch to the police and justice system when they have screwed them for the entirety of the history of the United States.
At the end of the day, it isn’t the minorities that have to make the first move since they don’t hold the power in this situation. This police officer can choke someone to death, an exceptionally personal method of killing someone, and still only get charged with third degree murder and have the entire police force defend him.
Removing police unions doesn’t solve the inherent problem that police in America are protected by those in power and those in power control a justice system that is stacked against anymore who isn’t white and/or wealthy.
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Anyone surprised in terms of how fast it spread all over the USA? Yesterday it was mostly Minneapolis and Louisville, now it's in every major city in the USA
The last time we had the protests (circa Ferguson), it definitely didn't get this chaotic / widespread so fast. When was the last time it got this crazy - the 1960s?
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On May 30 2020 15:10 Bagration wrote:
Anyone surprised in terms of how fast it spread all over the USA? Yesterday it was mostly Minneapolis and Louisville, now it's in every major city in the USA
The last time we had the protests (circa Ferguson), it definitely didn't get this chaotic / widespread so fast. When was the last time it got this crazy - the 1960s?
Think it's a combination of the pandemic lockdown plus the cold-bloodedness of this latest killing.
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On May 30 2020 13:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 13:09 cLutZ wrote:On May 30 2020 12:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 30 2020 12:14 Mohdoo wrote:On May 30 2020 12:11 cLutZ wrote:On May 30 2020 11:30 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 30 2020 11:14 Mohdoo wrote:Good. It is of extreme importance that everyone learns police only have the power we give them. They are below us, not above. They are only allowed to do what we consent to them doing. The current culture in the US glorifies police as if they are not only special, but a moral authority. I want that aspect of our culture to be destroyed as much as possible. Burning down precincts and stuff like that is an essential part to breaking down the image that our country has of police. The abuse towards minorities is untenable. Remember kneeling? Remember all the millions of other peaceful protests? Look at the number of minorities killed by cops this year and tell me it is working. People have the right to live. People have the right to feel safe. Police have destroyed that feeling for me and many other minorities. In the absence of any other solution, riots are the only thing left. All I know is that if I feel what I feel as a Hispanic, Black People in America are living a nightmare. They have it much worse than we do. Much, much, much worse. Well said. This one black man is tired. When you wake a sleeping giant, it isn't a beautiful sight. These protests need to last through summer. Make sure this is the American Summer (as opposed to Arab Spring) and make the changes denied, reality. Really banking on no Covid outdoor transmission then? From my POV riots in a pandemic don't seem like the greatest idea. Given how vulnerable minority populations have already been, you'll kill more black men in a single year with protests than have been killed by cops in a half century. You're making it very clearly how poorly you understand the issue with every post you make. Edit: I'll expand. They know what they are doing. They understand the risks, and even knowing that, this is what is happening. It should make you wonder why this is so important to them. They also highlight another issue with the current way most people think. Not cLutz explicitly, but they want this to wait until after the pandemic. To wait until it is 'safe' to protest. They want people to wait until a more 'appropriate time' to make demands. The people have waited. Decades. Centuries. And they're tired of waiting. I'm tired of waiting. I don't think the pandemic should put everything on hold, I just struggle to appreciate this combination. BLM and its related movements look a lot like AOC's Green New Deal in their policy positions. How can the same solutions solve global warming and police brutality? Also I would like to see someone steelman the case that this is, indeed a problem uniquely for minorities. FBI statistics show they commit crimes at higher rates, including at or above 50% for the crime where selective reporting is the least likely cause: Murder. Doesn't this mean they are just going to naturally interact with police more often? Given my base position that people are mostly assholes, and cops are mostly in the top 10% of that isn't focusing on the racial aspect likely to stop you from solving the problem? From my POV the #1 most effective thing in helping the problem would be de-certifying and banning police unions. That's not listed highly on the top google results, if at all. Again, there proposals to me seem mostly like your regular left of center wish list which is why I said up above that they are a force projection from the establishment. > Another data point that they aren't really a threat to the establishment is that establishment media aren't treating them like a threat, they are treating them like allies. Of course FBI stats are going to show minorities are causing a lot more of the crimes. They're policed a helluva lot harder than whites. They're also under-policed so that means they do it themselves and that is a recipe for some of the worst neighborhoods in America. They're also disproportionately poorer on average than whites, so that is going to cause strife/stress which in turn leads to crime. You look at the % of population and then the % of crimes and you see it skews heavily towards minorities. Those stats are misleading to have you believe that by nature, minorities are just crime prone.
I didn't say crime prone, I said likely to interact with police, and likely in high-stress situations. #1 is dangerous, I was tackled by a cop when I was 19 in a backyard who then fabricated the idea that I was resisting arrest. #2 is super dangerous, and minorities are in that situation a lot. The NYPD has several reports about this. Here's a part of one:
Although 25% of the City’s population is Black, among all criminal shooting suspects identified by race Citywide in 2012, 77% were Black, and 74% of shooting victims were Black. Blacks were similarly represented as subjects in ID-AC incidents in 2012; 34 (74%) were Black. Among subjects who were armed with firearms during ID-AC incidents, 75% were Black (Figure 2.13), and among subjects who fired at officers, 79% were Black (Figure 2.16).
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/nypd_annual_firearms_discharge_report_2012.pdf
That's a lot of the really high stress incidents. I doubt even a good police (which I am positive we do not have) force would do well with that.
Could you clarify what you mean about the communities being both over and underpoliced? I live near one of Chicago's more violent neighborhoods and they seem to have a lot of squad cars in them compared to my neighborhood, but they also have a lot more shootings. It seems on a comparative level I'd guess it seems fairly proportional. The underlying causes of this are obviously deeper such as poverty and many other factors.
On May 30 2020 13:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
And of course these protests aren't registering on the radar for the establishment, they haven't done anything to harm them. Yet. But when they do, if they do, you'll see how people react. Fuck with the money, and you'll see how quick these "non-threats" become a very serious threat.
This makes me think, "perhaps" but I am super skeptical. I don't think you can really threaten big media's money with riots nowadays. This is probably a big fundraising week for all the various grifter organizations out there like the SPLC. CNN was still very much cheering the protest riot combo publicly for a long while even while their building was a target (while secretly pleading for APCs of course).
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On May 30 2020 14:49 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 14:40 Danglars wrote:On May 30 2020 13:09 cLutZ wrote:On May 30 2020 12:29 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 30 2020 12:14 Mohdoo wrote:On May 30 2020 12:11 cLutZ wrote:On May 30 2020 11:30 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 30 2020 11:14 Mohdoo wrote:Good. It is of extreme importance that everyone learns police only have the power we give them. They are below us, not above. They are only allowed to do what we consent to them doing. The current culture in the US glorifies police as if they are not only special, but a moral authority. I want that aspect of our culture to be destroyed as much as possible. Burning down precincts and stuff like that is an essential part to breaking down the image that our country has of police. The abuse towards minorities is untenable. Remember kneeling? Remember all the millions of other peaceful protests? Look at the number of minorities killed by cops this year and tell me it is working. People have the right to live. People have the right to feel safe. Police have destroyed that feeling for me and many other minorities. In the absence of any other solution, riots are the only thing left. All I know is that if I feel what I feel as a Hispanic, Black People in America are living a nightmare. They have it much worse than we do. Much, much, much worse. Well said. This one black man is tired. When you wake a sleeping giant, it isn't a beautiful sight. These protests need to last through summer. Make sure this is the American Summer (as opposed to Arab Spring) and make the changes denied, reality. Really banking on no Covid outdoor transmission then? From my POV riots in a pandemic don't seem like the greatest idea. Given how vulnerable minority populations have already been, you'll kill more black men in a single year with protests than have been killed by cops in a half century. You're making it very clearly how poorly you understand the issue with every post you make. Edit: I'll expand. They know what they are doing. They understand the risks, and even knowing that, this is what is happening. It should make you wonder why this is so important to them. They also highlight another issue with the current way most people think. Not cLutz explicitly, but they want this to wait until after the pandemic. To wait until it is 'safe' to protest. They want people to wait until a more 'appropriate time' to make demands. The people have waited. Decades. Centuries. And they're tired of waiting. I'm tired of waiting. I don't think the pandemic should put everything on hold, I just struggle to appreciate this combination. BLM and its related movements look a lot like AOC's Green New Deal in their policy positions. How can the same solutions solve global warming and police brutality? Also I would like to see someone steelman the case that this is, indeed a problem uniquely for minorities. FBI statistics show they commit crimes at higher rates, including at or above 50% for the crime where selective reporting is the least likely cause: Murder. Doesn't this mean they are just going to naturally interact with police more often? Given my base position that people are mostly assholes, and cops are mostly in the top 10% of that isn't focusing on the racial aspect likely to stop you from solving the problem? From my POV the #1 most effective thing in helping the problem would be de-certifying and banning police unions. That's not listed highly on the top google results, if at all. Again, there proposals to me seem mostly like your regular left of center wish list which is why I said up above that they are a force projection from the establishment. > Another data point that they aren't really a threat to the establishment is that establishment media aren't treating them like a threat, they are treating them like allies. Decertifying police unions in their current form would be a huge good change. The trouble would be if the abuse swings the other way on inner city community policing. And of course people here like to blame the decline of unions for all kinds of societal ills, but they fail to connect the power of public employee unions to problems in public employees. Oh well. The obvious examples are NYPD and LAPD, and from what sermo says, Minneapolis PD too. But I don’t think there’s any political will to go hard against the police unions that wield such political power in the selection of mayors and council members. I heard some pretty harsh comments on protestors without masks agitating against arbitrary business closures and lengthy extensions to lockdowns. It’s a tiny bit strange that that criticism just drops off when it’s violent protestors with major stuff to protest. You kind of understand their biases through these situations. Your "protestors" (who were armed and stormed a government building no less) were protesting getting a hair cut and having a beer because they couldn't stay isolated so long. Trying to compare the two is very telling and you really should be ashamed of yourself.
Mask use is connected to what you're protesting. I like it.
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On May 30 2020 14:59 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 14:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 30 2020 14:27 puppykiller wrote:
I agree that police murders of unarmed people are unacceptable. I agree many cops have an irrational fear when making arrests. I also agree that some number of cops clearly have an irrational fear of black men which leads them to treat them in an inhumane way. What I don't like is when one of these idiot cops kills someone and it validates an entire narrative condemning all police, which then in turn leads people to seek outlandish levels of retribution against people that vocally support their cause. That's where the disconnect is. No one is condemning all police. They are condemning the good ones that stand by and do nothing. They are condemning the "no investigate our own" fraternity that is perpetuated around the country. They want people who are vocally on their side, to actually do something besides send thoughts and prayers. To do something more than pay lip service. Ok I completely agree with this so we can call this common ground. I don't know about the "no one is condemning all police" thing though. I mean it only took me a second to find this guy. Lots of vague hyperbolic statements here Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 14:41 StalkerTL wrote:
There’s absolutely no reason for minorities to hand an olive branch to the police and justice system when they have screwed them for the entirety of the history of the United States.
At the end of the day, it isn’t the minorities that have to make the first move since they don’t hold the power in this situation. This police officer can choke someone to death, an exceptionally personal method of killing someone, and still only get charged with third degree murder and have the entire police force defend him.
Removing police unions doesn’t solve the inherent problem that police in America are protected by those in power and those in power control a justice system that is stacked against anymore who isn’t white and/or wealthy.
You can always find an outlier in any given situation. That shouldn't negate the common ground we found and it shouldn't negate the feelings at large for most people.
Here is an 8 minute video that I think everyone should really listen to. This is someone that I can align with strongly in their beliefs and something that I may have tried to get across but failed.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 30 2020 15:14 Starlightsun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 15:10 Bagration wrote:
Anyone surprised in terms of how fast it spread all over the USA? Yesterday it was mostly Minneapolis and Louisville, now it's in every major city in the USA
The last time we had the protests (circa Ferguson), it definitely didn't get this chaotic / widespread so fast. When was the last time it got this crazy - the 1960s? Think it's a combination of the pandemic lockdown plus the cold-bloodedness of this latest killing.
Plus there's a lot of latent rage and frustration in this country - to have this intense of an outburst shows the deeper systemic issues the country is facing
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On May 30 2020 15:10 Bagration wrote:
Anyone surprised in terms of how fast it spread all over the USA? Yesterday it was mostly Minneapolis and Louisville, now it's in every major city in the USA
The last time we had the protests (circa Ferguson), it definitely didn't get this chaotic / widespread so fast. When was the last time it got this crazy - the 1960s?
Im honestly very surprised given how many times this sort of thing has happened. I guess this might just be the straw that broke the camel's back.
I hear DC is getting wild.
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This is getting really weird. These are clearly children. What in the world is going on. I know the forum rules, but I don't know what you expect me to say about this. I hereby declare it is weird that children are being used as riot police.
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On May 30 2020 15:41 Mohdoo wrote:This is getting really weird. These are clearly children. What in the world is going on. I know the forum rules, but I don't know what you expect me to say about this. I hereby declare it is weird that children are being used as riot police. https://twitter.com/foxwoundband/status/1266613385862447104
Nothing seems to make sense anymore - the world has truly gone mad
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If it's some rando on twitter without major outlets picking up on the story, hold off until it happens.
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On May 30 2020 15:47 Danglars wrote:
If it's some rando on twitter without major outlets picking up on the story, hold off until it happens.
Regardless of if these kids are in any way affiliated with police, there are 100% kids with batons on the streets right now.
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CHILD REBEL SOLDIERS!!! Atlanta has entered Congo territory now. This is amazing, sad, and just baffling all in one.
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On May 30 2020 15:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 15:47 Danglars wrote:
If it's some rando on twitter without major outlets picking up on the story, hold off until it happens. Regardless of if these kids are in any way affiliated with police, there are 100% kids with batons on the streets right now.
You can believe that with all of your heart, no doubt, but for the sake of others, grab a source when you have access to one. No dice.
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Good. Gotta send a message. Incremental change hasn't worked because the powers that be haven't even given the people that. People should be protesting every cities police to put them on notice that the way they do things are unacceptable. My cousin is organizing a demonstration tomorrow at one of our smaller city stations. They ALL should see the anger.
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On May 30 2020 15:41 Mohdoo wrote:This is getting really weird. These are clearly children. What in the world is going on. I know the forum rules, but I don't know what you expect me to say about this. I hereby declare it is weird that children are being used as riot police. https://twitter.com/foxwoundband/status/1266613385862447104
That's an unfair attack on Ben Shapiro (got my childlike conservatives confused) and I won't stand for it /s
I just hope people have plans to join the action closest to them in solidarity or recognize they are on the wrong side of history imo.
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On May 30 2020 15:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 14:59 puppykiller wrote:On May 30 2020 14:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 30 2020 14:27 puppykiller wrote:
I agree that police murders of unarmed people are unacceptable. I agree many cops have an irrational fear when making arrests. I also agree that some number of cops clearly have an irrational fear of black men which leads them to treat them in an inhumane way. What I don't like is when one of these idiot cops kills someone and it validates an entire narrative condemning all police, which then in turn leads people to seek outlandish levels of retribution against people that vocally support their cause. That's where the disconnect is. No one is condemning all police. They are condemning the good ones that stand by and do nothing. They are condemning the "no investigate our own" fraternity that is perpetuated around the country. They want people who are vocally on their side, to actually do something besides send thoughts and prayers. To do something more than pay lip service. Ok I completely agree with this so we can call this common ground. I don't know about the "no one is condemning all police" thing though. I mean it only took me a second to find this guy. Lots of vague hyperbolic statements here On May 30 2020 14:41 StalkerTL wrote:
There’s absolutely no reason for minorities to hand an olive branch to the police and justice system when they have screwed them for the entirety of the history of the United States.
At the end of the day, it isn’t the minorities that have to make the first move since they don’t hold the power in this situation. This police officer can choke someone to death, an exceptionally personal method of killing someone, and still only get charged with third degree murder and have the entire police force defend him.
Removing police unions doesn’t solve the inherent problem that police in America are protected by those in power and those in power control a justice system that is stacked against anymore who isn’t white and/or wealthy. You can always find an outlier in any given situation. That shouldn't negate the common ground we found and it shouldn't negate the feelings at large for most people. Here is an 8 minute video that I think everyone should really listen to. This is someone that I can align with strongly in their beliefs and something that I may have tried to get across but failed. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rapfJYfPU38
Ok well I think you and I at this point are probably in agreement because I was about to link a killer mike video in my last post.
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On May 30 2020 16:08 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2020 15:20 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 30 2020 14:59 puppykiller wrote:On May 30 2020 14:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 30 2020 14:27 puppykiller wrote:
I agree that police murders of unarmed people are unacceptable. I agree many cops have an irrational fear when making arrests. I also agree that some number of cops clearly have an irrational fear of black men which leads them to treat them in an inhumane way. What I don't like is when one of these idiot cops kills someone and it validates an entire narrative condemning all police, which then in turn leads people to seek outlandish levels of retribution against people that vocally support their cause. That's where the disconnect is. No one is condemning all police. They are condemning the good ones that stand by and do nothing. They are condemning the "no investigate our own" fraternity that is perpetuated around the country. They want people who are vocally on their side, to actually do something besides send thoughts and prayers. To do something more than pay lip service. Ok I completely agree with this so we can call this common ground. I don't know about the "no one is condemning all police" thing though. I mean it only took me a second to find this guy. Lots of vague hyperbolic statements here On May 30 2020 14:41 StalkerTL wrote:
There’s absolutely no reason for minorities to hand an olive branch to the police and justice system when they have screwed them for the entirety of the history of the United States.
At the end of the day, it isn’t the minorities that have to make the first move since they don’t hold the power in this situation. This police officer can choke someone to death, an exceptionally personal method of killing someone, and still only get charged with third degree murder and have the entire police force defend him.
Removing police unions doesn’t solve the inherent problem that police in America are protected by those in power and those in power control a justice system that is stacked against anymore who isn’t white and/or wealthy. You can always find an outlier in any given situation. That shouldn't negate the common ground we found and it shouldn't negate the feelings at large for most people. Here is an 8 minute video that I think everyone should really listen to. This is someone that I can align with strongly in their beliefs and something that I may have tried to get across but failed. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rapfJYfPU38 Ok well I think you and I at this point are probably in agreement because I was about to link a killer mike video in my last post.
By all means link it. I think it would do some good for people to get a sense of what a well articulated position on societal change is supposed to look like. (is the church/community one? Love that)
Edit: Mohdoo, can you link a livestream? Nothing on YT and I refuse reddit.
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EPT
