EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2206
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JohnDelaney
Ireland73 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
9064 Posts
If the youth of today really wanted to send a message, not showing up for work until medical professionals deem it safe to do so, and foregoing careers to protect the people they say they care about, would send a pretty strong message to a lot of people. While I am loathe to agree with GH, I have little faith in the intelligence of the American masses. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
9064 Posts
On March 25 2020 10:28 BigFan wrote: Has anyone checked out worldometer today? Italy recorded its highest death to date: 743. Spain had 680 die as well. The US had another 11k+ test positive and is now in third place. A lot of other countries are skyrocketing. We got another 700 cases up here in Canada which is concerning. I check this daily to see what is going on. It's getting more detailed as well, so you can check your surrounding neighborhoods for people who have tested positive. Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 25 2020 10:33 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I check this daily to see what is going on. It's getting more detailed as well, so you can check your surrounding neighborhoods for people who have tested positive. Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases Interesting. I was just surprised at the Italy death count. There were reports that it might be leveling out at least, but it went up... | ||
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Garbels
Austria653 Posts
On March 25 2020 10:35 BigFan wrote: Interesting. I was just surprised at the Italy death count. There were reports that it might be leveling out at least, but it went up... Up from yesterday but down from three days ago. Yesterday and the day before where noticeably lower thats why everyone was hopefull. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24251 Posts
On March 25 2020 10:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I'm for not going back to work and being homeless if that means I don't have to suffer more idiocy from people like that. I have no problem whatsoever waiting this out in the wilderness of midwest north some place. If the youth of today really wanted to send a message, not showing up for work until medical professionals deem it safe to do so, and foregoing careers to protect the people they say they care about, would send a pretty strong message to a lot of people. While I am loathe to agree with GH, I have little faith in the intelligence of the American masses. Question is; what is people's number. 100/day 1000/day 2500/day? How many will be too many to just keep showing up to work and one of the reasons I mentioned before (or one I didn't) isn't enough to keep them showing up? Not sure we ever get to that number for many people, even with the random deaths accompanied by horror stories about how they could have been saved were it not for the hospitals being full from COVID-19. For some context/scale: Smoking kills more than 1,000 people a day (in the US) and none of us has probably ever thought about missing work to stop it. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10939 Posts
Talking with my Friends/Family everyone thinks this "isolation" (closed bars/restaraunts and no private parties if your not a reterad) sucks. But well... Gotta deal with it for a few weeks/months. Also some true worries about small businesses (restaurants, hairdressers and so on but also the belief that our goverment will do something about that. Global industrial crysis? Not even on the radar... I actually believe thats healthy, because no matter how hard the crash right now is, it will jump back up as soon as this is done in no time. It might hurt some people that were makin money with money... So i couldn't care less. disclaimer: i know that pension funds and so on are also affected but i hope they play the long game. I work for one and we play the long game, so far this wasn't worse than when the swiss central bank dropped its binding to the euro after the last crysis. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On March 25 2020 11:22 GreenHorizons wrote: Question is; what is people's number. 100/day 1000/day 2500/day? How many will be too many to just keep showing up to work and one of the reasons I mentioned before (or one I didn't) isn't enough to keep them showing up? Not sure we ever get to that number for many people, even with the random deaths accompanied by horror stories about how they could have been saved were it not for the hospitals being full from COVID-19. For some context/scale: Smoking kills more than 1,000 people a day (in the US) and none of us has probably ever thought about missing work to stop it. Car accidents would be a much better example in this case. You're not going to stop people dying from smoking by not going to work. We're marginally past that point already for COVID deaths per day. Maybe once we're at 1000 instead of just 100. There is also a propagation issue with things. Most of the deaths are clustered in certain areas so you've got huge potions of the US that have no idea what is coming yet. Optimism bias is a problem, especially when it isn't your area that has the cases. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 25 2020 11:22 GreenHorizons wrote: Question is; what is people's number. 100/day 1000/day 2500/day? How many will be too many to just keep showing up to work and one of the reasons I mentioned before (or one I didn't) isn't enough to keep them showing up? Not sure we ever get to that number for many people, even with the random deaths accompanied by horror stories about how they could have been saved were it not for the hospitals being full from COVID-19. For some context/scale: Smoking kills more than 1,000 people a day (in the US) and none of us has probably ever thought about missing work to stop it. Smoking won't infect you like corona unless you are talking about getting sick from second hand smoke, but point is that it's not a similar example. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On March 25 2020 11:22 GreenHorizons wrote: Question is; what is people's number. 100/day 1000/day 2500/day? How many will be too many to just keep showing up to work and one of the reasons I mentioned before (or one I didn't) isn't enough to keep them showing up? Not sure we ever get to that number for many people, even with the random deaths accompanied by horror stories about how they could have been saved were it not for the hospitals being full from COVID-19. For some context/scale: Smoking kills more than 1,000 people a day (in the US) and none of us has probably ever thought about missing work to stop it. How to say it .. Today its 100, tomorrow its 300, the week after its 50k+, the month after it's 3millions. Your hospitals won't be able to keep up with anything, since they barely keep up when there's no crisis. Meaning people who shouldve survived will die. People with other medical issues will die. You can go from 2% mortality rate to 10% or more if you get overwhelmed. On a population of 300millions, that's between 6millions and 30millions deaths. This is why you need to think about missing work. I can only hope that Trump or states governors think really hard about it. They need to ensure that people can either work from home or have a safety net. Else you will lose a lot more than those lives. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On March 25 2020 12:21 Erasme wrote: How to say it .. Today its 100, tomorrow its 300, the week after its 50k+, the month after it's 3millions. Your hospitals won't be able to keep up with anything, since they barely keep up when there's no crisis. Meaning people who shouldve survived will die. People with other medical issues will die. You can go from 2% mortality rate to 10% or more if you get overwhelmed. On a population of 300millions, that's between 6millions and 30millions deaths. This is why you need to think about missing work. I can only hope that Trump or states governors think really hard about it. They need to ensure that people can either work from home or have a safety net. Else you will lose a lot more than those lives. Anyone thinking this is going to kill 6 to 30 million people is out of their mind just like the climate armageddonists. C-19 is not that lethal and its R0 is not that high. The hysteria without facts to justify economic shutdown and violations of 1st and 5th amendment rights is absurd. I bet you if this state of affairs lasts for 2-3 weeks let alone 1-2 months with the minimal effects of the virus people won't be tolerating "shelter in place" orders and vast economic shut down for a virus that, all told, will likely be less deadly than prolonged economic shut down. I don't like Trump, but he is right about this. It's easy to see what's in front of your face. It's not so easy to see the vast human and material well-being damage from a 2 month economic shutdown. It goes back to Bastiat's 'Seen and Unseen'. Humans are very bad at recognizing this. Also, Certificate of Needs are fucking stupid and I hope at least some regulatory reform will come from this clusterfuck. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On March 25 2020 11:22 GreenHorizons wrote: Question is; what is people's number. 100/day 1000/day 2500/day? How many will be too many to just keep showing up to work and one of the reasons I mentioned before (or one I didn't) isn't enough to keep them showing up? Not sure we ever get to that number for many people, even with the random deaths accompanied by horror stories about how they could have been saved were it not for the hospitals being full from COVID-19. For some context/scale: Smoking kills more than 1,000 people a day (in the US) and none of us has probably ever thought about missing work to stop it. According to the United Nations World Population Prospects report, approximately 7,452 people die every day in the United States. In other words, a person dies in the US approximately every 12 seconds I mean the deathrate in the US is going to have a double digit percentage rise just because of this. If Italy and Spain, both of which have comparable or better healthcare systems and are still losing hundreds a day, I have a hard time seeing the US not shoot past the 1k mark at this point. USA is looking like it's a plague .inc style speedrun based on the numbers that I'm seeing on worldometers. It'll overtake Italy Thursday or Friday for total cases, and China by the end of Saturday at the latest, and won't slow for at least a couple weeks more. Granted there are countries on the list whose numbers I don't trust, but US is definitely gunning for the #1 slot. It's like morbidly watching a track wreck in slow motion. If Spain and Italy, which have both been testing vastly more than the US are coming back with hundreds of deaths per day, I'm inclined to think that US deaths are both heavily underreporting deaths, and have horrendously failed to implement any procedures at all to slow it down before it's gotten completely out of control. | ||
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Herpin_Along
15 Posts
On March 25 2020 12:55 Wegandi wrote: Anyone thinking this is going to kill 6 to 30 million people is out of their mind just like the climate armageddonists. C-19 is not that lethal and its R0 is not that high. The hysteria without facts to justify economic shutdown and violations of 1st and 5th amendment rights is absurd. I bet you if this state of affairs lasts for 2-3 weeks let alone 1-2 months with the minimal effects of the virus people won't be tolerating "shelter in place" orders and vast economic shut down for a virus that, all told, will likely be less deadly than prolonged economic shut down. I don't like Trump, but he is right about this. It's easy to see what's in front of your face. It's not so easy to see the vast human and material well-being damage from a 2 month economic shutdown. It goes back to Bastiat's 'Seen and Unseen'. Humans are very bad at recognizing this. Also, Certificate of Needs are fucking stupid and I hope at least some regulatory reform will come from this clusterfuck. Yeah 6 to 30 million is definitely out there, but 200k-500k is not, and I think that is a pretty conservative estimate. In all fairness the US is not exactly known for old people that are healthy (i.e. don't have diabetes, obesity, heart disease, etc.). I dunno about you man but that is a lot of dead people :/ | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On March 25 2020 12:55 Wegandi wrote: Anyone thinking this is going to kill 6 to 30 million people is out of their mind just like the climate armageddonists. C-19 is not that lethal and its R0 is not that high. The hysteria without facts to justify economic shutdown and violations of 1st and 5th amendment rights is absurd. I bet you if this state of affairs lasts for 2-3 weeks let alone 1-2 months with the minimal effects of the virus people won't be tolerating "shelter in place" orders and vast economic shut down for a virus that, all told, will likely be less deadly than prolonged economic shut down. I don't like Trump, but he is right about this. It's easy to see what's in front of your face. It's not so easy to see the vast human and material well-being damage from a 2 month economic shutdown. It goes back to Bastiat's 'Seen and Unseen'. Humans are very bad at recognizing this. Also, Certificate of Needs are fucking stupid and I hope at least some regulatory reform will come from this clusterfuck. Sooo what do we do? Go back to work, reopen the bars, just let people who are gonna die, die? Hospitals are already approaching max capacity and infections are accelerating, what do we do with the people we don’t have ventilators for? | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On March 25 2020 13:10 Herpin_Along wrote: Yeah 6 to 30 million is definitely out there, but 200k-500k is not, and I think that is a pretty conservative estimate. In all fairness the US is not exactly known for old people that are healthy (i.e. don't have diabetes, obesity, heart disease, etc.). I dunno about you man but that is a lot of dead people :/ I mean difference between 200k and 500k is probably only a 2-3 days of indifference. 500k to 6M would be 3+weeks as I think you start running out of people to infect at that point, although your outlook if you caught it at that point would be bleak if you had any severe symptoms. I personally think that US will have more deaths than every other first world country combined at this point. As for Wegandi, I'm curious as to how many deaths you're willing to sign off on to try and prop up the economy. Seems to be a lot higher than what most people would tolerate. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
On March 25 2020 10:28 BigFan wrote: Has anyone checked out worldometer today? Italy recorded its highest death to date: 743. Spain had 680 die as well. The US had another 11k+ test positive and is now in third place. A lot of other countries are skyrocketing. We got another 700 cases up here in Canada which is concerning. Italy does post mortem test and everyone dying with coronavirus becomes someone dying from coronavirus, it's the only country which chooses to count this way. I would at least like a comparison with their usual death rate. | ||
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ThatCleanBurn
8 Posts
The world failed to contain this virus because they saw this virus coming yet did nothing because of the economy. Rather than take a huge hit immediately, they’re either going to let this draw on for a long time or let people suffer and/or die to try and create some sense of normality. What you’re meant to do is shut down everything to limit the spread and use that time to implement infrastructure and tracking in the same way South Korea and Singapore did. New Zealand seems to be making some decent moves to halt the spread so there might be a single nation in the West treating this seriously and not putting the economy over people’s health. On March 25 2020 13:13 ChristianS wrote: Sooo what do we do? Go back to work, reopen the bars, just let people who are gonna die, die? Hospitals are already approaching max capacity and infections are accelerating, what do we do with the people we don’t have ventilators for? If you look at what Trump and some members of the GOP are saying, that is literally what they’re saying. People need to die to fertilise the economy of the future. Economy in most cases being the stock market and not much else. I wonder how many people with those views have substantial investments in the stock market. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8166 Posts
On March 25 2020 12:55 Wegandi wrote: Anyone thinking this is going to kill 6 to 30 million people is out of their mind just like the climate armageddonists. C-19 is not that lethal and its R0 is not that high. The hysteria without facts to justify economic shutdown and violations of 1st and 5th amendment rights is absurd. I bet you if this state of affairs lasts for 2-3 weeks let alone 1-2 months with the minimal effects of the virus people won't be tolerating "shelter in place" orders and vast economic shut down for a virus that, all told, will likely be less deadly than prolonged economic shut down. I don't like Trump, but he is right about this. It's easy to see what's in front of your face. It's not so easy to see the vast human and material well-being damage from a 2 month economic shutdown. It goes back to Bastiat's 'Seen and Unseen'. Humans are very bad at recognizing this. Also, Certificate of Needs are fucking stupid and I hope at least some regulatory reform will come from this clusterfuck. So you are ready to let the health system totally collapse and let hundreds of thousands (very low estimates) to one or two millions (probably) people suffocate, most of which could be saved with respirators, for saving "the economy". Covid mortality is quite low (under 1%, probably less) when people are taken care of properly. It's actually quite high (10% of the diagnosed cases in epicentre in Italy) when they are not - when the hospitals can't treat them anymore. Which will certainly happen if we do nothing. The scenes described by doctors in Wuhan and in Italy when control was lost are coming straight from a horror movie. People dying on their way to the hospitals, patients left to slowly suffocate in a corridor because there are no ventilators anymore, and so on and so forth. Not only is it really short sighted - the economy will completely collapse anyway if you let that thing run amok - but it's also borderline psychopathic. | ||
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