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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
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On March 16 2020 09:14 LegalLord wrote:So the news is a few hours old, but hasn’t been posted here yet. The Fed just announced another two measures: interest rates down from 1% to 0%, and they’re doing $700 billion of quantitative easing. Another attempt to bolster the economy after the coronavirus shutdown has brought things to a standstill. Show nested quote + The Federal Reserve, saying “the coronavirus outbreak has harmed communities and disrupted economic activity in many countries, including the United States,” cut interest rates to essentially zero on Sunday and launched a massive $700 billion quantitative easing program to shelter the economy from the effects of the virus.
The new fed funds rate, used as a benchmark both for short-term lending for financial institutions and as a peg to many consumer rates, will now be targeted at 0% to 0.25% down from a previous target range of 1% to 1.25%.
Facing highly disrupted financial markets, the Fed also slashed the rate of emergency lending at the discount window for banks by 125 basis points to 0.25%, and lengthened the term of loans to 90 days. SourceWell, I think that that’s it; the Fed has shot their wad here. That’s just about the full extent of monetary policy that we have, and I’d say it’s wasted at a time when it has the least chance of doing any good. This bodes poorly.
The frustrating part is they arent realizing they cannot address a demand problem.
This is a demand issue. Lowering rates is not a bad idea, hell assuming i still have a job in a month ill refinance. The real issue is debt. Payments need to be skipped at no penalty. This needs to be treated as a giant pause on the economy. Skip debt payments for 1 or 2 months and re-evaluate then.
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On March 16 2020 11:30 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 09:14 LegalLord wrote:So the news is a few hours old, but hasn’t been posted here yet. The Fed just announced another two measures: interest rates down from 1% to 0%, and they’re doing $700 billion of quantitative easing. Another attempt to bolster the economy after the coronavirus shutdown has brought things to a standstill. The Federal Reserve, saying “the coronavirus outbreak has harmed communities and disrupted economic activity in many countries, including the United States,” cut interest rates to essentially zero on Sunday and launched a massive $700 billion quantitative easing program to shelter the economy from the effects of the virus.
The new fed funds rate, used as a benchmark both for short-term lending for financial institutions and as a peg to many consumer rates, will now be targeted at 0% to 0.25% down from a previous target range of 1% to 1.25%.
Facing highly disrupted financial markets, the Fed also slashed the rate of emergency lending at the discount window for banks by 125 basis points to 0.25%, and lengthened the term of loans to 90 days. SourceWell, I think that that’s it; the Fed has shot their wad here. That’s just about the full extent of monetary policy that we have, and I’d say it’s wasted at a time when it has the least chance of doing any good. This bodes poorly. The frustrating part is they arent realizing they cannot address a demand problem. This is a demand issue. Lowering rates is not a bad idea, hell assuming i still have a job in a month ill refinance. The real issue is debt. Payments need to be skipped at no penalty. This needs to be treated as a giant pause on the economy. Skip debt payments for 1 or 2 months and re-evaluate then.
We can go QE n+1 or negative rates, still.
This is a desperate attempt to get ahead of the economy contracting, which no mistake it will. The supply side is a mess from all the factories, etc. shutting down and supply chains getting borked. The demand side is all screwed from people staying home, not spending, and not making money. Even if coronavirus magically disappeared next week, we'd still spend a few months (at a minimum) getting things back together.
I don't blame the fed for trying to take aggressive action - I think it's actually the right move, but it won't help because the government response to the crisis has been too little and too late, and consumers and investors have lost confidence on that fromt.
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So are polling places for voting considered gatherings? If we can't gather above 50, how do we conduct a primary lol
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On March 16 2020 12:27 Mohdoo wrote:
So are polling places for voting considered gatherings? If we can't gather above 50, how do we conduct a primary lol
Just ignore CDC recommendations like people/politicians in various cities have already been doing I'd guess.
It's got the same issue as a lot of what is going on nowadays. The solution is doing something as an emergency response (in this case ubiquitous mail-in voting) that the politicians are scared we'll demand they make permanent and that will undermine their political prescriptions outside of an emergency context.
Nothing was stopping the House from passing (an inadequate imo) bill demanding PTO and family leave for employees long before the Corona pandemic for example.
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First shipments of emergency relief aid (in the form of masks and test kits) from China are leaving for the US
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Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good.
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On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good.
That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility?
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On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility?
Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands
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On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands
This particular virus may have originated out of China, but are you suggesting the clear negligence and malicious hiding of the severity of this pandemic in the US would have been better handled by the Trump administration (than it is currently) had it originated here?
It seems that you're being quite unreasonable holding China liable to reimburse the world for what you say the Trump administration/US (and other nations themselves) are responsible for.
For a concrete example, I would suggest that this isn't an absurd expectation for countries like South Korea in this specific and limited context, provided they were able to go to an international forum and make a convincing case that China's response is/was something along the lines of "reckless endangerment".
I caution you in making this argument though, that it opens the US to a laundry list of such charges from around the world that it is ill equipped to defend imo. I'd suspect the US has enough outstanding liabilities to that effect to bankrupt the nation several times over.
EDIT: To try to crystallize it another way: How long are you going to hold China financially liable and morally culpable for the US's (or other countries) poor handling of this pandemic 3 months, 6 months, 12? Forever?
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On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands This particular virus may have originated out of China, but are you suggesting the clear negligence and malicious hiding of the severity of this pandemic in the US would have been better handled by the Trump administration (than it is currently) had it originated here?
This hypothetical has no bearing on what we are currently looking at. I don't see why you'd even pose that question. If the US did a bad job handling a pandemic, it would not make China less guilty. China has handled this situation both negligently and maliciously. No hypothetical changes that.
On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands It seems that you're being quite unreasonable holding China liable to reimburse the world for what you say the Trump administration/US (and other nations themselves) are responsible for.
Trump increasing US infection rates through negligence doesn't mean China isn't responsible for creating a situation to react to. The whole situation never should have even happened. China's incompetence made this. Then they tried to cover it up until it was clearly impossible. Just as the UN is responsible for instability in the middle east by forming Israel, China is responsible for all messes to follow.
On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands For a concrete example, I would suggest that this isn't an absurd expectation for countries like South Korea in this specific and limited context, provided they were able to go to an international forum and make a convincing case that China's response is/was something along the lines of "reckless endangerment". I caution you in making this argument though, that it opens the US to a laundry list of such charges from around the world that it is ill equipped to defend imo. I'd suspect the US has enough outstanding liabilities to that effect to bankrupt the nation several times over.
What do I have to lose by saying the US has a laundry list of charges around the world? I agree, the US has enough payments to make to simply not exist anymore. That can be true while China is also an incredibly guilty party responsible for unleashing a pandemic on the planet. There is no situation where this entire ordeal wasn't started by them. US guilt in other scenarios is obvious and not related to this.
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On March 16 2020 14:25 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands This particular virus may have originated out of China, but are you suggesting the clear negligence and malicious hiding of the severity of this pandemic in the US would have been better handled by the Trump administration (than it is currently) had it originated here? This hypothetical has no bearing on what we are currently looking at. I don't see why you'd even pose that question. If the US did a bad job handling a pandemic, it would not make China less guilty. China has handled this situation both negligently and maliciously. No hypothetical changes that. Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands It seems that you're being quite unreasonable holding China liable to reimburse the world for what you say the Trump administration/US (and other nations themselves) are responsible for. Trump increasing US infection rates through negligence doesn't mean China isn't responsible for creating a situation to react to. The whole situation never should have even happened. China's incompetence made this. Then they tried to cover it up until it was clearly impossible. Just as the UN is responsible for instability in the middle east by forming Israel, China is responsible for all messes to follow. Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands For a concrete example, I would suggest that this isn't an absurd expectation for countries like South Korea in this specific and limited context, provided they were able to go to an international forum and make a convincing case that China's response is/was something along the lines of "reckless endangerment". I caution you in making this argument though, that it opens the US to a laundry list of such charges from around the world that it is ill equipped to defend imo. I'd suspect the US has enough outstanding liabilities to that effect to bankrupt the nation several times over. What do I have to lose by saying the US has a laundry list of charges around the world? I agree, the US has enough payments to make to simply not exist anymore. That can be true while China is also an incredibly guilty party responsible for unleashing a pandemic on the planet. There is no situation where this entire ordeal wasn't started by them. US guilt in other scenarios is obvious and not related to this.
Hey, if you're arguing the US should be dissolved as a nation after liquidating to compensate (I'd argue Indigenous peoples domestically first, then others around the world) for the devastation it has wrought on the world I'm not going to stop you/argue because you might come to that same conclusion about China.
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On March 16 2020 14:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 14:25 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands This particular virus may have originated out of China, but are you suggesting the clear negligence and malicious hiding of the severity of this pandemic in the US would have been better handled by the Trump administration (than it is currently) had it originated here? This hypothetical has no bearing on what we are currently looking at. I don't see why you'd even pose that question. If the US did a bad job handling a pandemic, it would not make China less guilty. China has handled this situation both negligently and maliciously. No hypothetical changes that. On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands It seems that you're being quite unreasonable holding China liable to reimburse the world for what you say the Trump administration/US (and other nations themselves) are responsible for. Trump increasing US infection rates through negligence doesn't mean China isn't responsible for creating a situation to react to. The whole situation never should have even happened. China's incompetence made this. Then they tried to cover it up until it was clearly impossible. Just as the UN is responsible for instability in the middle east by forming Israel, China is responsible for all messes to follow. On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands For a concrete example, I would suggest that this isn't an absurd expectation for countries like South Korea in this specific and limited context, provided they were able to go to an international forum and make a convincing case that China's response is/was something along the lines of "reckless endangerment". I caution you in making this argument though, that it opens the US to a laundry list of such charges from around the world that it is ill equipped to defend imo. I'd suspect the US has enough outstanding liabilities to that effect to bankrupt the nation several times over. What do I have to lose by saying the US has a laundry list of charges around the world? I agree, the US has enough payments to make to simply not exist anymore. That can be true while China is also an incredibly guilty party responsible for unleashing a pandemic on the planet. There is no situation where this entire ordeal wasn't started by them. US guilt in other scenarios is obvious and not related to this. Hey, if you're arguing the US should be dissolved as a nation after liquidating to compensate (I'd argue Indigenous peoples domestically first, then others around the world) for the devastation it has wrought on the world I'm not going to stop you/argue because you might come to that same conclusion about China.
When we examine the list of wrongdoings and ignore implications, a jury would not have a difficult time being convinced of guilt in the case of both US and Chinese governments.
I don't think your emphasis on US wrongdoing is useful in this context, but it doesn't sound like we disagree. I do think we should be able to emphasize current Chinese guilt on the clearly #1 topic right now without bringing US guilt into it. We aren't a jury. We are having a conversation. We should be able to just talk about Chinese guilt without requiring people to also admit US guilt. I hope that now that I have gladly done so we can move on.
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Unless china literally manufactured it and released it into the world ON PURPOSE, I don't see why they're at fault. Negligent, maybe, in allowing their strange open air markets to operate, but not to the point where they could reasonably be expected to owe reparations. It's not like they knew how bad it could get, and they definitely let the world know about it once they did. The thing is that weird, random ass mutations can originate ANYWHERE, and this one just happened to start in China. It spreading so rapidly isn't even a strike against them, as it has such a crazy long incubation period that no one could have predicted. If it had originated in Nigeria, there would be no conversations to be had about them reimbursing the world because they wouldn't have any resources with which to do so.
The spanish flu has since been apparently traced in origin to the US, should the US now reimburse Europe for all the losses in 1917-18?
Most experts have said China handled it very poorly in the first couple of weeks, and then handled it extremely well (F for first 2-3 weeks, B+ since). As opposed to the US which is handling it horribly even now, and recently had one of the coronavirus press conferences include a portion where they told the press to stop the negative coverage.
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On March 16 2020 14:40 Nevuk wrote:
Unless china literally manufactured it and released it into the world ON PURPOSE, I don't see why they're at fault. Negligent, maybe, in allowing their strange open air markets to operate, but not to the point where they could reasonably be expected to owe reparations. It's not like they knew how bad it could get, and they definitely let the world know about it once they did. The thing is that weird, random ass mutations can originate ANYWHERE, and this one just happened to start in China. It spreading so rapidly isn't even a strike against them, as it has such a crazy long incubation period that no one could have predicted. If it had originated in Nigeria, there would be no conversations to be had about them reimbursing the world because they wouldn't have any resources with which to do so.
The spanish flu has since been apparently traced in origin to the US, should the US now reimburse Europe for all the losses in 1917-18?
Most experts have said China handled it very poorly in the first couple of weeks, and then handled it extremely well (F for first 2-3 weeks, B+ since). As opposed to the US which is handling it horribly even now, and recently had one of the coronavirus press conferences include a portion where they told the press to stop the negative coverage.
When China actively tried to suppress information, their fault crystallized. In my eyes. Things go wrong all the time. Focusing on saving face rather than fixing a problem as efficiently and effectively as possible creates guilt. By trying to pay effectiveness for pride, they created a worse situation.
Edit: But to be clear, they were already sufficiently guilty by allowing the insane conditions in the area where we believe this virus was birthed. It isn't acceptable for china to allow that.
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On March 16 2020 14:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 14:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 14:25 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands This particular virus may have originated out of China, but are you suggesting the clear negligence and malicious hiding of the severity of this pandemic in the US would have been better handled by the Trump administration (than it is currently) had it originated here? This hypothetical has no bearing on what we are currently looking at. I don't see why you'd even pose that question. If the US did a bad job handling a pandemic, it would not make China less guilty. China has handled this situation both negligently and maliciously. No hypothetical changes that. On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands It seems that you're being quite unreasonable holding China liable to reimburse the world for what you say the Trump administration/US (and other nations themselves) are responsible for. Trump increasing US infection rates through negligence doesn't mean China isn't responsible for creating a situation to react to. The whole situation never should have even happened. China's incompetence made this. Then they tried to cover it up until it was clearly impossible. Just as the UN is responsible for instability in the middle east by forming Israel, China is responsible for all messes to follow. On March 16 2020 14:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:46 Mohdoo wrote:On March 16 2020 13:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 16 2020 13:30 Mohdoo wrote:Inadequate because I consider the entire ordeal their fault. Anything less than complete reimbursement is insufficient. But this is good. That sounds silly to me for a lot of reasons (though I think the US owes a lot of reparations to a lot of people so maybe not entirely absurd), but would you agree with Trump then that he has no responsibility? Every country is responsible for how well they deal with the situation given to them. But the one to create the entire fucking mess holds all the overall guilt. It's no different than the US destroying the middle East by enabling Israel. Sure, Iran and everyone else are awful and do awful things, but it is important to remember the formation of Israel was fundamentally the cause of all that shit. Same deal with China. They were the ultimate fuck ups by letting this happen with negligence and then covering it up with malice. All this blood is on their hands For a concrete example, I would suggest that this isn't an absurd expectation for countries like South Korea in this specific and limited context, provided they were able to go to an international forum and make a convincing case that China's response is/was something along the lines of "reckless endangerment". I caution you in making this argument though, that it opens the US to a laundry list of such charges from around the world that it is ill equipped to defend imo. I'd suspect the US has enough outstanding liabilities to that effect to bankrupt the nation several times over. What do I have to lose by saying the US has a laundry list of charges around the world? I agree, the US has enough payments to make to simply not exist anymore. That can be true while China is also an incredibly guilty party responsible for unleashing a pandemic on the planet. There is no situation where this entire ordeal wasn't started by them. US guilt in other scenarios is obvious and not related to this. Hey, if you're arguing the US should be dissolved as a nation after liquidating to compensate (I'd argue Indigenous peoples domestically first, then others around the world) for the devastation it has wrought on the world I'm not going to stop you/argue because you might come to that same conclusion about China. When we examine the list of wrongdoings and ignore implications, a jury would not have a difficult time being convinced of guilt in the case of both US and Chinese governments. I don't think your emphasis on US wrongdoing is useful in this context, but it doesn't sound like we disagree. I do think we should be able to emphasize current Chinese guilt on the clearly #1 topic right now without bringing US guilt into it. We aren't a jury. We are having a conversation. We should be able to just talk about Chinese guilt without requiring people to also admit US guilt. I hope that now that I have gladly done so we can move on.
Frankly, when I see China sending us supplies we desperately need and have inadequately prepared to ramp up in accordance to a long forecasted need, I find focusing on their shortcomings in the US politics thread peculiar, but not a big deal in itself.
It would seem to me to be much more relevant though, to ask ourselves whether they can provide other supplies we desperately need and don't have the capacity to produce in response to what is going to be (already is in Seattle really) a massive public health crisis that could have been far better mitigated from Trump to the individual level in the US. Whether this is a diplomatic opportunity to both recoup some of what we've lost to China economically as a result of them not "playing fair" and build a relationship toward a cooperative future regarding the existential global threat we face in climate change.
Basically, could Trump working with China save countless lives amid the biggest health crisis we've faced in our lifetimes as a nation. Perhaps of all times, this isn't the best one to shoot a gift horse in the mouth.
Maybe we should bring in 10,000 of their nurses/medical staff as well. Have them build us a temporary (or permenent if they are feeling generous, maybe Bloomberg could chip in) hospital near NYC and Seattle, stuff like that.
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On March 16 2020 13:17 JimmiC wrote:
Thank goodness that the Americans will be rescued by a Chinese Oligarch it is good to see one rich and powerful man do another rich and powerful man a solid. Hopefully Trump returns the favour by helping him continue to make massive personal profit it the future!
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this viewpoint. Knowing the actors at play I'd be foolish not to immediately notice that aid like this is always going to come with strings attached. Let's not go singing the praises of China just yet.
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On March 16 2020 15:22 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2020 13:17 JimmiC wrote:
Thank goodness that the Americans will be rescued by a Chinese Oligarch it is good to see one rich and powerful man do another rich and powerful man a solid. Hopefully Trump returns the favour by helping him continue to make massive personal profit it the future! Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this viewpoint. Knowing the actors at play I'd be foolish not to immediately notice that aid like this is always going to come with strings attached. Let's not go singing the praises of China just yet.
In a battle of billionaires I might not mind watching Bezos get double teamed by Ma and Trump with both Amazon and Alibaba ending up nationalized.
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EPT
