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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2129

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

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If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44312 Posts
February 20 2020 04:33 GMT
#42561
Does anyone know where I can find a VOD of this debate?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
February 20 2020 04:37 GMT
#42562
On February 20 2020 13:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Does anyone know where I can find a VOD of this debate?


Likely NBC News Youtube eventually.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-20 05:05:07
February 20 2020 04:46 GMT
#42563
--- Nuked ---
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
February 20 2020 04:50 GMT
#42564
On February 20 2020 12:36 Wegandi wrote:
It's funny hearing Bernie talk about the rich buying votes when all his plans are essentially, here's some free shit, $$$, vote for me. There's no pretense this debate is anything else. Every candidate is in a game of one upmanship to who can use the Government to give away the most shit. It's hilarious how transparent it is. There's almost no substantive and factual "talk" going on.


We also have Shapiro's Twitter btw, this take was bad there and it is bad here. To have a popular agenda is not the same as to flood the country with billions of ads and buy an election, because... simply, that isn't how words work?
No will to live, no wish to die
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
February 20 2020 05:26 GMT
#42565
On February 20 2020 12:36 Wegandi wrote:
It's funny hearing Bernie talk about the rich buying votes when all his plans are essentially, here's some free shit, $$$, vote for me. There's no pretense this debate is anything else. Every candidate is in a game of one upmanship to who can use the Government to give away the most shit. It's hilarious how transparent it is. There's almost no substantive and factual "talk" going on.
You're not supposed to notice that, or his three houses, or his $1.2 million spent on luxury private jets in one quarter.

"If we don't act incredibly boldly in the next six, seven years, there will be irreparable damage done. Not just to Nevada, not just to Vermont or Massachusetts, but to the entire world."

"The scope of the challenge ahead of us shares similarities with the crisis faced by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1940s... Bernie will lead our country to enact the Green New Deal and bring the world together to defeat the existential threat of climate change."

He should make changes in his own life before preaching to others.
KTY
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25245 Posts
February 20 2020 05:38 GMT
#42566
On February 20 2020 14:26 Xxio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2020 12:36 Wegandi wrote:
It's funny hearing Bernie talk about the rich buying votes when all his plans are essentially, here's some free shit, $$$, vote for me. There's no pretense this debate is anything else. Every candidate is in a game of one upmanship to who can use the Government to give away the most shit. It's hilarious how transparent it is. There's almost no substantive and factual "talk" going on.
You're not supposed to notice that, or his three houses, or his $1.2 million spent on luxury private jets in one quarter.

"If we don't act incredibly boldly in the next six, seven years, there will be irreparable damage done. Not just to Nevada, not just to Vermont or Massachusetts, but to the entire world."

"The scope of the challenge ahead of us shares similarities with the crisis faced by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1940s... Bernie will lead our country to enact the Green New Deal and bring the world together to defeat the existential threat of climate change."

He should make changes in his own life before preaching to others.

The problems are systemic in nature, who gets more accomplished, wealthy President Bernie o pauper non-President Bernie?

Come on man does he have to live in a hut?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
February 20 2020 05:43 GMT
#42567
On February 20 2020 14:26 Xxio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2020 12:36 Wegandi wrote:
It's funny hearing Bernie talk about the rich buying votes when all his plans are essentially, here's some free shit, $$$, vote for me. There's no pretense this debate is anything else. Every candidate is in a game of one upmanship to who can use the Government to give away the most shit. It's hilarious how transparent it is. There's almost no substantive and factual "talk" going on.
You're not supposed to notice that, or his three houses, or his $1.2 million spent on luxury private jets in one quarter.

"If we don't act incredibly boldly in the next six, seven years, there will be irreparable damage done. Not just to Nevada, not just to Vermont or Massachusetts, but to the entire world."

"The scope of the challenge ahead of us shares similarities with the crisis faced by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1940s... Bernie will lead our country to enact the Green New Deal and bring the world together to defeat the existential threat of climate change."

He should make changes in his own life before preaching to others.


Comparing a millionaire to a billionaire is silly. If you're comparing the wealth of the .1% to Bernie, you're desperate. Billionaires horde a grotesque amount of wealth that could deeply benefit the country. Distracting by saying Bernie is a millionaire is an extremely lazy rebuttal.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-20 07:51:15
February 20 2020 05:43 GMT
#42568
On February 20 2020 12:49 TentativePanda wrote:
That last question was terribly ominous. The DNC is ready to not vote with public opinion


You have no idea how many times I've been told that wouldn't happen only for every candidate (other than Bernie) to outright confirm they will vote against the plurality of delegates if they think they can get away with it (which is different than actually being able to get away with it).

On February 20 2020 14:43 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2020 14:26 Xxio wrote:
On February 20 2020 12:36 Wegandi wrote:
It's funny hearing Bernie talk about the rich buying votes when all his plans are essentially, here's some free shit, $$$, vote for me. There's no pretense this debate is anything else. Every candidate is in a game of one upmanship to who can use the Government to give away the most shit. It's hilarious how transparent it is. There's almost no substantive and factual "talk" going on.
You're not supposed to notice that, or his three houses, or his $1.2 million spent on luxury private jets in one quarter.

"If we don't act incredibly boldly in the next six, seven years, there will be irreparable damage done. Not just to Nevada, not just to Vermont or Massachusetts, but to the entire world."

"The scope of the challenge ahead of us shares similarities with the crisis faced by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1940s... Bernie will lead our country to enact the Green New Deal and bring the world together to defeat the existential threat of climate change."

He should make changes in his own life before preaching to others.


Comparing a millionaire to a billionaire is silly. If you're comparing the wealth of the .1% to Bernie, you're desperate. Billionaires horde a grotesque amount of wealth that could deeply benefit the country. Distracting by saying Bernie is a millionaire is an extremely lazy rebuttal.


Someone did the scale math and it's like comparing someone worth $250 to someone worth $6,000,000 and telling the guy with $250 to share more first. I think you're being kind calling it silly and lazy .
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25245 Posts
February 20 2020 05:48 GMT
#42569
On February 20 2020 13:16 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2020 13:06 Mohdoo wrote:
On February 20 2020 12:36 Wegandi wrote:
It's funny hearing Bernie talk about the rich buying votes when all his plans are essentially, here's some free shit, $$$, vote for me. There's no pretense this debate is anything else. Every candidate is in a game of one upmanship to who can use the Government to give away the most shit. It's hilarious how transparent it is. There's almost no substantive and factual "talk" going on.


Bernie would significantly raise my taxes and I already have great health insurance. Giving health insurance to all Americans reduces overall costs and prevents the government from covering emergency room visits. As a manufacturing engineer, I could never stand against Medicare for all. My "work center" incurring a higher cost so that the overall cost to my factory is significantly reduced is a slam dunk. The federal government *today* pays for unpaid emergency bills.

Every insurance company has HR, finance, data science, marketing and a ridiculous number of other departments that go with being a business. That is why companies merge and buy each other. When you eliminate those departments from all companies, you save an insane amount of money. If nothing else, the idea that a single company having an entire market is something many libertarians should understand. Once someone becomes king, being king is as simple as being king. When you don't have to fight, you can focus more on growth.

Similarly, if healthcare was treated like fighting fires and crime, we would just have a wound/illness fighting agency that just focuses on making people more healthy. Keep in mind that health issues cost less to treat when detected early. Insurance companies do not have an incentive to reduce overall costs, only to reduce costs they incur. Those are very different things.


I would address your general point, but you didn't rebut my point so going on a tangent with you serves little purpose; suffice to say though the current mostly Government-dictated healthcare "market" is a mess, not because there's too much market involved, but the surprising lack of one.

As for your second paragraph do you ever stop for a moment with that last sentence and analyze the definition of a Government? Even in the distorted upside down healthcare "market" you can still enter it somewhat, but when Government takes something over, that's it, that's the point of a Government being THE monopoly institution. My point is, doesn't the cognitive dissonance ever ring a little?

Where’s the cognitive dissonance?

If anything it’s framing the current system’s problems as being due to mostly to the government’s involvement and ignoring the considerably lower costs in countries where the government is the primary provider and saying that the lack of the market is the problem.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
February 20 2020 05:49 GMT
#42570
--- Nuked ---
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
February 20 2020 06:01 GMT
#42571
Honestly, I have a hard time understanding why anyone really thinks that Bernie's "fortune" - which is apparently as small a number as $2.5 million - is even really worth mentioning. That's not even close to being wealthy, that's just comfortably well-off after a five-decade career. On par with any number of people with a decent job and reasonably sound investment decisions. And the job of Senator certainly pays well enough to qualify as "decent job."

Yes, it's true that he's better off than a good number of his supporters, but it's quite a flimsy argument to try to spin that into hypocrisy. Pretty pitiful that that's the best Boomberg & friends could come up with, honestly.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-20 09:23:22
February 20 2020 09:18 GMT
#42572
On February 20 2020 15:01 LegalLord wrote:
Honestly, I have a hard time understanding why anyone really thinks that Bernie's "fortune" - which is apparently as small a number as $2.5 million - is even really worth mentioning. That's not even close to being wealthy, that's just comfortably well-off after a five-decade career. On par with any number of people with a decent job and reasonably sound investment decisions. And the job of Senator certainly pays well enough to qualify as "decent job."

Yes, it's true that he's better off than a good number of his supporters, but it's quite a flimsy argument to try to spin that into hypocrisy. Pretty pitiful that that's the best Boomberg & friends could come up with, honestly.

Yeah, it's honestly a stupid argument.

You can get to where Sanders is with a job that pays 3x minimum wage over 50 years.

You can get to where Bloomberg is with a job that pays something like 10000x minimum wage over 50 years.

Sanders is closer in orders of magnitude to a teenager who has cheap clothes and an old donated phone(say $250 total assets) than Bloomberg.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
February 20 2020 09:30 GMT
#42573
It can be hard to really picture the amount that a billion represents. Ash Sarkar had a cool image for that; if you win 1$ every 10 seconds, you'll be a millionnaire within 4 months. You'll be a billionnaire in 310 years.
No will to live, no wish to die
PoulsenB
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland7711 Posts
February 20 2020 09:30 GMT
#42574
Funny how when a social democrat has some wealth people freak out, but when corporate capitalists have literally ALL the wealth nobody bats an eye.
IdrA fan forever <3 || the clueless one || Marci must be protected at all costs
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9618 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-20 11:39:18
February 20 2020 11:20 GMT
#42575
On February 20 2020 14:26 Xxio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2020 12:36 Wegandi wrote:
It's funny hearing Bernie talk about the rich buying votes when all his plans are essentially, here's some free shit, $$$, vote for me. There's no pretense this debate is anything else. Every candidate is in a game of one upmanship to who can use the Government to give away the most shit. It's hilarious how transparent it is. There's almost no substantive and factual "talk" going on.
You're not supposed to notice that, or his three houses, or his $1.2 million spent on luxury private jets in one quarter.

"If we don't act incredibly boldly in the next six, seven years, there will be irreparable damage done. Not just to Nevada, not just to Vermont or Massachusetts, but to the entire world."

"The scope of the challenge ahead of us shares similarities with the crisis faced by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1940s... Bernie will lead our country to enact the Green New Deal and bring the world together to defeat the existential threat of climate change."

He should make changes in his own life before preaching to others.


this is a poorly considered take. people couldn’t make solar power happen without first using gas and coal to get there. that’s just not how change happens. imagine being the guy telling musk he should stop driving to work or flying to investor meetings if he’s so preachy about electric cars and helicopters being the future 10 years ago.

politicians are nearly required to have at least two homes. and the idea that they have to travel? blasphemous 🙄. others have already said enough on the pittance that is millions of dollars in the face of billions.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6230 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-20 11:49:04
February 20 2020 11:40 GMT
#42576
Bernie isn't a social democrat, he's a democratic socialist. It sounds like nitpicking but the differences are significant and it's important to be precise.

His "wealth" is obviously not an issue to anyone who thinks about it for ten seconds, but there is a large chunk of the electorate that will not think about it for ten seconds. The optics are a little shaky. There will be blue-collar workers all over the country who will hear that a millionaire complaining about millionaires is planning to raise their taxes while remaining a millionaire.

Trump will push this button as hard as he can, and Sanders needs to have an answer that will fly with those voters.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-20 12:06:16
February 20 2020 12:04 GMT
#42577
On February 20 2020 20:40 Belisarius wrote:
Bernie isn't a social democrat, he's a democratic socialist. It sounds like nitpicking but the differences are significant and it's important to be precise.

His "wealth" is obviously not an issue to anyone who thinks about it for ten seconds, but there is a large chunk of the electorate that will not think about it for ten seconds. The optics are a little shaky. There will be blue-collar workers all over the country who will hear that a millionaire complaining about millionaires is planning to raise their taxes while remaining a millionaire.

Trump will push this button as hard as he can, and Sanders needs to have an answer that will fly with those voters.


The main distinguishing feature is whether their reforms are meant to attempt to make capitalism more equitable or to undermine/replace capitalism as an economic system.

Bernie's policies walk that line while Warrens are firmly in the "save capitalism" camp. I'd say they represent most of the range of "social democrats", but neither are democratic socialists (maybe fair to say Bernie is the right flank of democratic socialists though).
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
February 20 2020 12:40 GMT
#42578
On February 20 2020 20:40 Belisarius wrote:
Bernie isn't a social democrat, he's a democratic socialist. It sounds like nitpicking but the differences are significant and it's important to be precise.

His "wealth" is obviously not an issue to anyone who thinks about it for ten seconds, but there is a large chunk of the electorate that will not think about it for ten seconds. The optics are a little shaky. There will be blue-collar workers all over the country who will hear that a millionaire complaining about millionaires is planning to raise their taxes while remaining a millionaire.

Trump will push this button as hard as he can, and Sanders needs to have an answer that will fly with those voters.

He's a millionaire complaining about billionaires.

Using Forbes numbers, Bernie is worth 2.5 million. Bloomberg earned 8.7 billion last year.

Bloomberg will earn Bernie's 50+year career life's savings in less than 3 hours. And Trump is literally fighting in the supreme court to keep his tax returns hidden. I doubt these two have any angle here.

Neosteel Enthusiast
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
February 20 2020 12:43 GMT
#42579
I thought the debate went well for Sanders and Warren, appropriately awful for Bloomberg, and meh/middling for everyone else. Not a surprising result.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35143 Posts
February 20 2020 13:01 GMT
#42580
On February 20 2020 21:43 farvacola wrote:
I thought the debate went well for Sanders and Warren, appropriately awful for Bloomberg, and meh/middling for everyone else. Not a surprising result.

I felt Pete looked desperate honestly. On the moderate end Bloomy got boomed and Biden was already one foot out the door. I don't think he was happy at all with Klob's NH showing after only barely eeking out an advantage over Bernie in Iowa and is trying to clear his side of the table... but instead came off like a bit of a tool.
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