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On January 25 2020 00:50 Nebuchad wrote:
Rogan is also not great on trans issues so I understand a reluctance there. Farv's reaction is the correct one imo.
idk if that’s true. i haven’t heard any coherent arguments from trans women who actually compete in athletic endeavors to the effect that trans women have no advantages against cis women in sport. its inevitably a case by case basisnkind of thing. i think the whole moral/aesthetic/social foundation for a women/men divide in competitive sports is either necessarily subject to the organizer’s arbitrary categorization or it threatens to collapse entirely. it’s usually doctors or trans activists who have no actual experience with athletic training or competition saying “hormones hormones” over and over without any attention to the complex total machine that is the human body. i dont listen to all of rogan’s stuff obviously but from what i can tell his “not great on trans issues” reputation stems from his doubts that trans women dont have a significant advantage against cis women in a lot of (but not all) sporting events
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After looking into this "anti trans" stuff, people need to shut up. Trans women in competing in women's sports is questiomable at best. Treat them the same in every other way, but sports are just about bodies and women are simply not as strong as men.
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On January 25 2020 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:
After looking into this "anti trans" stuff, people need to shut up. Trans women in competing in women's sports is dubious at best. Treat them the same in every other way, but sports are just about bodies and women are simply not as strong as men.
"He's a fucking man" is always going to be the wrong way to discuss trans issues (in reference to a trans woman) even if his overall point has validity.
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On January 25 2020 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2020 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:
After looking into this "anti trans" stuff, people need to shut up. Trans women in competing in women's sports is dubious at best. Treat them the same in every other way, but sports are just about bodies and women are simply not as strong as men. "He's a fucking man" is always going to be the wrong way to discuss trans issues (in reference to a trans woman) even if his overall point has validity.
Within the context of him being an entertainer, intentionally not tip-toeing in many other situations, and the fact that it is within the context of athleticism, I don't see an issue. But only because all 3 of those things are true. To me, trans women competing in women's sporting events is completely nuts and totally outrageous. It should not be even given slight consideration.
In a conversation or something, I'd say "whoa buddy" and think it is bad, but so long as the topic at hand is sports competition, pointing out the fact that their muscles, bones, cardiovascular system and everything are all that of a man is entirely valid. I don't think people should budge a millionth of an inch when it comes to what sex someone is in sports competitions. In short, I think he SHOULD be outraged. Very bad wording, done by an entertainer who generally is very loose with his wording.
But honestly, I like the conversation around this. Yes, we should be entirely sensitive and supportive of trans people. BUT, it is also important that we don't lose our ability to think and feel on issues that are a little spicy and delicate because we are worried it might come across wrong. SPECIFICALLY, EXACTLY what Joe Rogan was getting at, I 100% agree with. He was walking a very fine line and barely did not say something bad, IMO. Barely, but still safe. When someone is barely safe, it should be considered safe.
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Turning several millions into a few hundreds is quite a feat.
Now think of that as the tip of the iceberg.
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On January 25 2020 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2020 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 25 2020 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:
After looking into this "anti trans" stuff, people need to shut up. Trans women in competing in women's sports is dubious at best. Treat them the same in every other way, but sports are just about bodies and women are simply not as strong as men. "He's a fucking man" is always going to be the wrong way to discuss trans issues (in reference to a trans woman) even if his overall point has validity. Within the context of him being an entertainer, intentionally not tip-toeing in many other situations, and the fact that it is within the context of athleticism, I don't see an issue. But only because all 3 of those things are true. To me, trans women competing in women's sporting events is completely nuts and totally outrageous. It should not be even given slight consideration. In a conversation or something, I'd say "whoa buddy" and think it is bad, but so long as the topic at hand is sports competition, pointing out the fact that their muscles, bones, cardiovascular system and everything are all that of a man is entirely valid. I don't think people should budge a millionth of an inch when it comes to what sex someone is in sports competitions. In short, I think he SHOULD be outraged. Very bad wording, done by an entertainer who generally is very loose with his wording. But honestly, I like the conversation around this. Yes, we should be entirely sensitive and supportive of trans people. BUT, it is also important that we don't lose our ability to think and feel on issues that are a little spicy and delicate because we are worried it might come across wrong. SPECIFICALLY, EXACTLY what Joe Rogan was getting at, I 100% agree with. He was walking a very fine line and barely did not say something bad, IMO. Barely, but still safe. When someone is barely safe, it should be considered safe.
In that same context it's valid for people to be bothered by it. Particularly those that get that kind of thing yelled at them by people emboldened by his hot takes.
For me I just see more of the typical left white male "shut up and be happy we're moving left" type of stuff that bothers me.
On January 25 2020 02:15 Vivax wrote:
Turning several millions into a few hundreds is quite a feat.
Now think of that as the tip of the iceberg.
Never ceases to impress me how people in the US take "reputable" outlets pushing blatantly false propaganda in stride so frequently.
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I said 'not great' guys, didn't mean to imply he was the worst ever. If we can't get you to say that the way he approached this was 'not great', there is more work to be done than I thought.
And men's bodies are not exactly relevant to the conversation of trans women in sports fwiw.
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On January 25 2020 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2020 02:12 Mohdoo wrote:On January 25 2020 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 25 2020 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:
After looking into this "anti trans" stuff, people need to shut up. Trans women in competing in women's sports is dubious at best. Treat them the same in every other way, but sports are just about bodies and women are simply not as strong as men. "He's a fucking man" is always going to be the wrong way to discuss trans issues (in reference to a trans woman) even if his overall point has validity. Within the context of him being an entertainer, intentionally not tip-toeing in many other situations, and the fact that it is within the context of athleticism, I don't see an issue. But only because all 3 of those things are true. To me, trans women competing in women's sporting events is completely nuts and totally outrageous. It should not be even given slight consideration. In a conversation or something, I'd say "whoa buddy" and think it is bad, but so long as the topic at hand is sports competition, pointing out the fact that their muscles, bones, cardiovascular system and everything are all that of a man is entirely valid. I don't think people should budge a millionth of an inch when it comes to what sex someone is in sports competitions. In short, I think he SHOULD be outraged. Very bad wording, done by an entertainer who generally is very loose with his wording. But honestly, I like the conversation around this. Yes, we should be entirely sensitive and supportive of trans people. BUT, it is also important that we don't lose our ability to think and feel on issues that are a little spicy and delicate because we are worried it might come across wrong. SPECIFICALLY, EXACTLY what Joe Rogan was getting at, I 100% agree with. He was walking a very fine line and barely did not say something bad, IMO. Barely, but still safe. When someone is barely safe, it should be considered safe. In that same context it's valid for people to be bothered by it. Particularly those that get that kind of thing yelled at them by people emboldened by his hot takes. For me I just see more of the typical left white male "shut up and be happy we're moving left" type of stuff that bothers me.
I'm fine with anyone being bothered by anything. But I am saying I don't think Joe Rogan did something unethical. I am taking this from the perspective of "was this an ethical thing to say, yes or no?", to which I answer yes.
This comes down to.
1. Joe Rogan endorses Bernie
2. But Joe Rogan is unethical
3. So Bernie embracing Joe's endorsement is bad
I question (2). People can say things that rub me the wrong way, but it doesn't mean the person committed an ethical violation in doing so.
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On January 25 2020 02:21 Nebuchad wrote:
I said 'not great' guys, didn't mean to imply he was the worst ever. If we can't get you to say that the way he approached this was 'not great', there is more work to be done than I thought.
And men's bodies are not exactly relevant to the conversation of trans women in sports fwiw.
I'm reasonably confident that best case under Bernie we get a FDR style New Deal that screws over marginalized people domestically and abroad and a bunch of contented white leftists and neoliberals (since they won't have to go any further left).
I can't express in words how frustrating this shit is for marginalized peoples even slightly left of "Progressives"
EDIT: Feel I should mention when I say "white" I'm talking about "Whiteclub" it isn't about skin color.
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On January 25 2020 02:21 Nebuchad wrote:
I said 'not great' guys, didn't mean to imply he was the worst ever. If we can't get you to say that the way he approached this was 'not great', there is more work to be done than I thought.
And men's bodies are not exactly relevant to the conversation of trans women in sports fwiw.
what does “men’s bodies” even mean? the whole discussion is incoherent, and statements like yours prove that the whole conversation is shot through w inconsistent terminology and temporarily expedient categories. i dont hold it against people for using the wrong words in good faith arguments, and that goes doubly so when the argument itself is so ill-defined.
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everyone is “not great” under some judgment criteria. within the social-mediasphere the phrase “not great” is more an expression of mood affiliation than any judgment on content.
do you think elizabeth warren has even thought about trans women in sports for more than two seconds? she almost by definition has a “not great” position simply because its ill-considered
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The conversation regarding trans women in sports has to do with cis and trans women's bodies, not with men's bodies. I'd be lying if I said I knew all of the available data on trans vs cis women but I know that a trans woman's body is athletically weaker than a man's body, so that's not the data that we should be looking at and it's because he looks at this data that Mohdoo thinks the question is easily settled, hence why I took issue with his use of men's bodies in this argument.
If Warren (or Bernie) chooses to talk about it and says something not great I'll say it's not great. I fail to see the issue.
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there is no comprehensive dataset on “trans women’s bodies” and you appear to be erasing trans women who haven’t undergone HRT from the discussion. you are making exclusionary assumptions that harm marginalized people. insert “we all need to get better”, “check your privilege” yada yada, dissolve into foam, fade to black
lets not even bring up non binary bodies
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On January 25 2020 03:06 IgnE wrote:
there is no comprehensive dataset on “trans women’s bodies” and you appear to be erasing trans women who haven’t undergone HRT from the discussion. you are making exclusionary assumptions that harm marginalized people. insert “we all need to get better”, “check your privilege” yada yada, dissolve into foam, fade to black
lets not even bring up non binary bodies
Are you attempting to show that wokeness can be weaponized by bad faith actors? Who do you think doesn't realize that? It's a weird reaction to have in response to the excessively mild objection I made.
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i am trying to show that acting like the language police on this issue can be hypocritical and self-defeating
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Language used can show a lack of knowledge. Pointing it out is not policing.
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Who cares about trans women in sports, women’s bodies can out perform men’s bodies as well. The ones who care about trans women in competition against other women are most likely the same people who think gender inequality isn’t an issue.
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do you really think your correction of mohdoo has cleared anything up? its not even clear what “women’s sport” means and you are trying to tell mohdoo that “women’s bodies” are the only bodies relevant to “women’s sport.” come on. thats policing for policing’s sake, so as not to cause offense. you were only “pointing out” that “men’s bodies” might cause offense, even though we are still trying to grapple with what it even means for a body to be a “woman’s” or a “man’s”
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On January 25 2020 03:19 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Who cares about trans women in sports, women’s bodies can out perform men’s bodies as well. The ones who care about trans women in competition against other women are most likely the same people who think gender inequality isn’t an issue.
uh cis women care, for one
the easiest solution is to pass a law so that no one can be denied participation in any sporting event on the basis of gender
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I believe that Mohdoo thinks the question of trans women in sports is easy because he is picturing the difference between a man and a woman's body. I believe that the question is not easy because I'm aware that a trans woman's body is different from a man's body. I am trying to pass that awareness unto him. If I manage to do that, the conversation will definitely be clearer. I am confused as to why this annoys you so much.
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EPT
