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On November 22 2019 05:06 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 05:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 22 2019 04:48 Mo_tx wrote:On November 22 2019 04:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 22 2019 04:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
So Netanyahu is being indicted. Does this do anything for US/Israel relations or nah? Remind us we've got bipartisan support for actively aiding and abetting a corrupt administration carrying out an ethnic cleansing campaign? At least 2, if you count Saudi Arabia's. I would agree with you Don't you feel this has been changing recently though? I feel that much more democrats (including some sitting in congress) are critical of US policy toward Israel? I mean we re still quite far from widespread critical positions on the colonization process, but I has the feeling we were slowly moving in this direction, at least among democrats. Sorta? Not sure what I'd be measuring. I certainly think Democrats are more critical of Trump doing the same shitty foreign policy things Obama was though. Probably because it was all through proper channels and procedures. Whereas trump is just tweeting it out or having some back alley meetings take place.
While I don't necessarily disagree with what I think you're saying, I don't think it's as absolving as many do. I think it speaks to a dangerous reliance on process inoculating people from doing horrific and corrupt things.
Regardless, I was talking about the actively aiding and abetting a corrupt administration/absolute monarchy in their ethnic cleansing campaigns.
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On November 22 2019 04:53 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think many of the democrats want to distance themselves from the current more abhorrent foreign policies coming from trump but without distancing themselves from the former abhorrent foreign policies coming out of or supported by democrats.
Yes. That's a big reason why of the countless impeachable offenses Trump's openly committed, this Ukraine thing is what everyone is banking on.
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I'm not saying it is absolving. Just remarking that people, particularly in regards to the government, can be persuaded something isn't as bad as long as the proper procedures were followed. The whistleblower thing was a big deal because they tried to circumvent it.
The whole aiding and abetting thing is what I was getting at. Does the US start to distance themselves from the hard line Israel supporters and do what's the more humane thing? Or do they keep the status quo because of history? Remains to be seen if the new admin will pivot or stay the course.
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On November 22 2019 06:17 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I'm not saying it is absolving. Just remarking that people, particularly in regards to the government, can be persuaded something isn't as bad as long as the proper procedures were followed. The whistleblower thing was a big deal because they tried to circumvent it.
The whole aiding and abetting thing is what I was getting at. Does the US start to distance themselves from the hard line Israel supporters and do what's the more humane thing? Or do they keep the status quo because of history? Remains to be seen if the new admin will pivot or stay the course.
I didn't think you were, but instead commenting on the fact that a lot of Democrats (and Republicans when it suits them) do, so we're good there  . The Nuremberg Laws were heavily inspired by Jim Crow, so this concept is deeply ingrained in the US, as is our shocking lack of introspection when it comes to foreign policy. 1924 US immigration policy is also praised in Mein Kampf as another example.
+ Show Spoiler +(source is Hitler's American Model: The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law the actual book but you can find that stuff online too).
Considering Sanders is supposed to be the radical leftist and he's being celebrated for simply mentioning Palestinians deserve human rights I'd say we're staying the course unless there's a Vietnam era type movement (except bigger).
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On November 22 2019 06:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 06:17 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I'm not saying it is absolving. Just remarking that people, particularly in regards to the government, can be persuaded something isn't as bad as long as the proper procedures were followed. The whistleblower thing was a big deal because they tried to circumvent it.
The whole aiding and abetting thing is what I was getting at. Does the US start to distance themselves from the hard line Israel supporters and do what's the more humane thing? Or do they keep the status quo because of history? Remains to be seen if the new admin will pivot or stay the course. I didn't think you were, but instead commenting on the fact that a lot of Democrats (and Republicans when it suits them) do, so we're good there . The Nuremberg Laws were heavily inspired by Jim Crow, so this concept is deeply ingrained in the US, as is our shocking lack of introspection when it comes to foreign policy. 1924 US immigration policy is also praised in Mein Kampf as another example. + Show Spoiler +(source is Hitler's American Model: The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law the actual book but you can find that stuff online too). Considering Sanders is supposed to be the radical leftist and he's being celebrated for simply mentioning Palestinians deserve human rights I'd say we're staying the course unless there's a Vietnam era type movement (except bigger).
I think America's too fundamentally right wing for that now. Religion is deeply rooted in American culture, and overall American Christianity seems to lean right wing, going by how well the Republicans always do with religious voters and the fact that promises to ban abortion is an election winner in multiple states.
At times the US resembles Saudi Arabia more than other Western nations, culturally.
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Why in the world are democrats not trying to get Giuliani, Pence, Pompeo to testify?
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On November 23 2019 01:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Why in the world are democrats not trying to get Giuliani, Pence, Pompeo to testify?
They are? There's not much you can do when you congressional subpoena people and they go 'Nah'
It's not a criminal one, ignoring it just looks bad. If half the country doesn't give a shit, the congress has no power
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On November 23 2019 01:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Why in the world are democrats not trying to get Giuliani, Pence, Pompeo to testify? Because the White House is stopping them and to get around the stonewalling would take long drawn out court battles of the finer points of what Congress can or cannot do?
its a battle I think they should fight but on the otherhand there is also a case for "just how much more collaborated evidence do you need".
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What would them dragging them in handcuffs in to testify add, exactly? Give them more opportunity to spread nonsense conspiracy theories that are demonstrably untrue? Dispel the bizarre fantasy that Democrats are only allowing those that support their case to testify when the "defendant" has ordered his people not to testify even though the Democrats asked them to (hint: it wouldn't)?
It isn't as though any of them will tell the truth, even under oath. At best you'd catch them in a "gotcha!" over evidence, which won't change anyone's mind (either the evil Dems are making them commit process crimes!1!111! or that evidence doesn't actually exist).
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I watched the Hill testimony in full and I gotta say whatever else comes of this impeachment process it was interesting to see who came out of the woodwork to defend the US foreign policy machine from Trump and i'm somewhat glad that that happened.
Fiona Hill being hailed as a heroine in the press is a bit much though, and looks to me like PR move orchestrated in advance.
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Would a senate trial change the calculus of getting witness testimony? Right now, people are ignoring House subpoenas. But a trial in the Senate would be presided by the SC Chief Justice. Surely people can't simply ignore it if the subpoenas come from him on behalf of the Senate, can they? What would the process look like there?
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On November 23 2019 06:02 jrkirby wrote:
Would a senate trial change the calculus of getting witness testimony? Right now, people are ignoring House subpoenas. But a trial in the Senate would be presided by the SC Chief Justice. Surely people can't simply ignore it if the subpoenas come from him on behalf of the Senate, can they? What would the process look like there?
Wouldn't the Senate need to be the ones pushing for that? Trump can be impeached because the House has a majority of Democrats, but the Senate Republicans won't turn on Trump.
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Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there.
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On November 23 2019 08:46 Sermokala wrote:
Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there.
Pretty sure thats not true at all.
He can refuse to hold a trail and just go straight to a vote, but he has to act on it
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On November 23 2019 08:46 Sermokala wrote:
Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there. Republicans would LOVE to broadcast Trump being cleared to the entire nation, no matter how BS it is.
Its the biggest victory they can hope for.
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On November 23 2019 08:46 Sermokala wrote:
Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there.
Latest impeachment polling suggests McConnell won't have to try. 538 has opposing impeachment just .1% behind support (both under 50%) in the average with it having actually flipped to a plurality against impeachment in the latest Emerson poll
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On November 23 2019 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2019 08:46 Sermokala wrote:
Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there. Latest impeachment polling suggests McConnell won't have to try. 538 has opposing impeachment just .1% behind support (both under 50%) in the average with it having actually flipped to a plurality against impeachment in the latest Emerson poll
I really don't understand the US. Why are any people happy with Trump as a president? He is immoral, corrupt, incompetent and utterly unsympathic. He should clearly never have gotten elected, and he demonstrates this every day.
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On November 23 2019 09:02 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2019 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 23 2019 08:46 Sermokala wrote:
Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there. Latest impeachment polling suggests McConnell won't have to try. 538 has opposing impeachment just .1% behind support (both under 50%) in the average with it having actually flipped to a plurality against impeachment in the latest Emerson poll I really don't understand the US. Why are any people happy with Trump as a president? He is immoral, corrupt, incompetent and utterly unsympathic. He should clearly never have gotten elected, and he demonstrates this every day.
That describes every president (Carter the least of the living, but still) Trump doesn't try to pretend otherwise and like the Carlin clip I've linked before we like our liars to be honest about it.
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On November 23 2019 09:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2019 09:02 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2019 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 23 2019 08:46 Sermokala wrote:
Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there. Latest impeachment polling suggests McConnell won't have to try. 538 has opposing impeachment just .1% behind support (both under 50%) in the average with it having actually flipped to a plurality against impeachment in the latest Emerson poll I really don't understand the US. Why are any people happy with Trump as a president? He is immoral, corrupt, incompetent and utterly unsympathic. He should clearly never have gotten elected, and he demonstrates this every day. That describes every president (Carter the least of the living, but still) Trump doesn't try to pretend otherwise and like the Carlin clip I've linked before we like our liars to be honest about it.
That is every person who has ever lived that was in a position of power for the most part. Your snipes are tiring.
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On November 23 2019 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2019 08:46 Sermokala wrote:
Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there. Republicans would LOVE to broadcast Trump being cleared to the entire nation, no matter how BS it is. Its the biggest victory they can hope for.
or their biggest loss
It's not too far fetched to imagine trump tumbling during his questionning. He can talk shit to the masses, its harder when there are people who are listening and recording everything you say, and turning it against you.
Kinda like prince andrew
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On November 23 2019 10:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2019 09:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 23 2019 09:02 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2019 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 23 2019 08:46 Sermokala wrote:
Impeachment won't even show up in the senate. McConnell can just refuse to receive the articles of impeachment and end it there. Latest impeachment polling suggests McConnell won't have to try. 538 has opposing impeachment just .1% behind support (both under 50%) in the average with it having actually flipped to a plurality against impeachment in the latest Emerson poll I really don't understand the US. Why are any people happy with Trump as a president? He is immoral, corrupt, incompetent and utterly unsympathic. He should clearly never have gotten elected, and he demonstrates this every day. That describes every president (Carter the least of the living, but still) Trump doesn't try to pretend otherwise and like the Carlin clip I've linked before we like our liars to be honest about it. That is every person who has ever lived that was in a position of power for the most part. Your snipes are tiring.
It's almost like the problem isn't the individuals, but the systems. That focusing on Trump/Republicans misses the forest for the trees.
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EPT
