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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 11 2018 06:01 Kyadytim wrote:
I'm kind of speechless. This isn't how things work. It's sort of similar to some reports we had about how Trump did business with people and then stiffed them, but it's still crazy that no one was able to point out that this is stupid and deals don't work like that.
Alternative take: Iran had already more or less agreed to stay in with the other nations, and now America wants to take the opportunity to look tough by telling Iran to do something and then bragging when they do it.
Still stupid.
haha that's so silly. Like, how does that even work? XD Trump trying to act tough even though the rest of the EU (afaik) decided to stick to the deal.
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On May 11 2018 06:40 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 05:47 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I'm an immigrant baby. It isn't my fault. I am Hispanic and didn't do any of that shit. I've endured racism as well. It blows ass. Are you saying some component of this is my fault? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by being absolved of guilt. What guilt? On May 11 2018 05:14 Evotroid wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I think the problem is, the Russians don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to sow dissent, just like how they supported every single Eurosceptic party, not because they are oh so worried about our sovereignty. Considering we are discussing the fact that this was done to increase black skepticism of existing institutions all for the sake of depressing black turnout for Clinton, all of this was geared towards Jeff Sessions becoming AG. Most people would consider that an unsuccessful instance of activism. No matter how you slice it, the intent was to prevent Clinton from being president, which resulted in AG Jeff Sessions. Black anger was used to create a worse situation for black Americans. They were not only used, they were used against themselves. Note: black americans are not to blame for that. They did nothing wrong. Clinton would not abolish the police, but I can be sure her AG would not be as bad as Jeff Sessions. If I understand GH’s views correctly, if you’re not actively part of the solution then you are part of the problem. The guilt doesn’t reference your individual actions/feelings, but rather your implicit acceptance of a heinous status quo and witnessing the anger and suffering resulting from said status quo. Placing blame on the Russians for their anger helps alleviate the blame on Americans. As for Jeff Sessions, I would imagine GH would argue that it’s ultimately beneficial he’s in power for the same reason GH sees benefit in Trump; the shittier things get, the more likely actions will replace words (revolution).
This pretty much sums it up. I think it's pretty stupid to think an ad like that does much of anything. Like one day on twitter is more enraging than everything the Russians put out combined. The idea that the Russia stuff made any real impact whatsoever on Black leftists is a myth we've been over several times now.
Like this one real life event completely unpromoted by Russia is easily more enraging to all the people allegedly susceptible to statements of facts about history on the internet than all the Russian posts combined.
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On May 11 2018 06:40 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 05:47 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I'm an immigrant baby. It isn't my fault. I am Hispanic and didn't do any of that shit. I've endured racism as well. It blows ass. Are you saying some component of this is my fault? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by being absolved of guilt. What guilt? On May 11 2018 05:14 Evotroid wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I think the problem is, the Russians don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to sow dissent, just like how they supported every single Eurosceptic party, not because they are oh so worried about our sovereignty. Considering we are discussing the fact that this was done to increase black skepticism of existing institutions all for the sake of depressing black turnout for Clinton, all of this was geared towards Jeff Sessions becoming AG. Most people would consider that an unsuccessful instance of activism. No matter how you slice it, the intent was to prevent Clinton from being president, which resulted in AG Jeff Sessions. Black anger was used to create a worse situation for black Americans. They were not only used, they were used against themselves. Note: black americans are not to blame for that. They did nothing wrong. Clinton would not abolish the police, but I can be sure her AG would not be as bad as Jeff Sessions. If I understand GH’s views correctly, if you’re not actively part of the solution then you are part of the problem. The guilt doesn’t reference your individual actions/feelings, but rather your implicit acceptance of a heinous status quo and witnessing the anger and suffering resulting from said status quo. Placing blame on the Russians for their anger helps alleviate the blame on Americans. As for Jeff Sessions, I would imagine GH would argue that it’s ultimately beneficial he’s in power for the same reason GH sees benefit in Trump; the shittier things get, the more likely actions will replace words (revolution).
If that is his position, then it's not really that new or particularly controversial. MLK Jr. said it, too.
Moderates who are willing to keep the status quo because it's not too bad for them diffuse the energy of a movement for change in a way that nothing else really does. The enemy of social change is apathy, not the people actively fighting back against it.
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On May 11 2018 07:55 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 06:40 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 05:47 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I'm an immigrant baby. It isn't my fault. I am Hispanic and didn't do any of that shit. I've endured racism as well. It blows ass. Are you saying some component of this is my fault? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by being absolved of guilt. What guilt? On May 11 2018 05:14 Evotroid wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I think the problem is, the Russians don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to sow dissent, just like how they supported every single Eurosceptic party, not because they are oh so worried about our sovereignty. Considering we are discussing the fact that this was done to increase black skepticism of existing institutions all for the sake of depressing black turnout for Clinton, all of this was geared towards Jeff Sessions becoming AG. Most people would consider that an unsuccessful instance of activism. No matter how you slice it, the intent was to prevent Clinton from being president, which resulted in AG Jeff Sessions. Black anger was used to create a worse situation for black Americans. They were not only used, they were used against themselves. Note: black americans are not to blame for that. They did nothing wrong. Clinton would not abolish the police, but I can be sure her AG would not be as bad as Jeff Sessions. If I understand GH’s views correctly, if you’re not actively part of the solution then you are part of the problem. The guilt doesn’t reference your individual actions/feelings, but rather your implicit acceptance of a heinous status quo and witnessing the anger and suffering resulting from said status quo. Placing blame on the Russians for their anger helps alleviate the blame on Americans. As for Jeff Sessions, I would imagine GH would argue that it’s ultimately beneficial he’s in power for the same reason GH sees benefit in Trump; the shittier things get, the more likely actions will replace words (revolution). If that is his position, then it's not really that new or particularly controversial. MLK Jr. said it, too. Moderates who are willing to keep the status quo because it's not too bad for them diffuse the energy of a movement for change in a way that nothing else really does. The enemy of social change is apathy, not the people actively fighting back against it.
The only question is what kind of fighting is effective, in what doses, and what is considered "enough" to not be an enemy.
Someone who is *actually* doing their best would
1. Go to school for a career that makes the most money possible. Law is the best because being a lawyer can be extremely helpful when working in social justice activism.
2. Actively organize events and marches and everything under the sun while in school
3. Graduate, continue to do everything in (2)
4. Find some way to live as cheaply as possible, roommates etc while pulling 6 figs
5. Spend ALL resources on advertising, outreach, billboards etc all focused around ending systematic racism in the country
6. Never marry, never have kids because it is just emotionally masturbatory to indulge in family/romance when people are being murdered by police
7. When near death, suicide bomb some white supremist meeting
8. Die with zero in the bank account
There are probably a few things that could be added, but the above is the only way someone could truly be doing everything they can. Anyone who does not do the things I listed above are technically calling it good at some point and saying it makes more sense to indulge in life's pleasures while children are being imprisoned and many others are being killed or disenfranchised or emotionally scarred by racism.
Pretty much no matter where you draw the line, you are making a conscious decision to decrease your total social progress output. As a lawyer, you could always be working cases pro-bono where it appears someone was wrongly convicted or otherwise excessively convicted for a crime because of racism. When you decide to go see a movie, that is 2 hours and $20 you could have spent saving a man's life from wrongful imprisonment.
You need to really be honest about what is possible and realize people are literally dying because of inaction. People who only do social activism work on the weekends are making a conscious decision to let innocent blacks either die or be imprisoned just for the sake of indulging in life's pleasures.
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On May 11 2018 08:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 07:55 Kyadytim wrote:On May 11 2018 06:40 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 05:47 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I'm an immigrant baby. It isn't my fault. I am Hispanic and didn't do any of that shit. I've endured racism as well. It blows ass. Are you saying some component of this is my fault? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by being absolved of guilt. What guilt? On May 11 2018 05:14 Evotroid wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I think the problem is, the Russians don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to sow dissent, just like how they supported every single Eurosceptic party, not because they are oh so worried about our sovereignty. Considering we are discussing the fact that this was done to increase black skepticism of existing institutions all for the sake of depressing black turnout for Clinton, all of this was geared towards Jeff Sessions becoming AG. Most people would consider that an unsuccessful instance of activism. No matter how you slice it, the intent was to prevent Clinton from being president, which resulted in AG Jeff Sessions. Black anger was used to create a worse situation for black Americans. They were not only used, they were used against themselves. Note: black americans are not to blame for that. They did nothing wrong. Clinton would not abolish the police, but I can be sure her AG would not be as bad as Jeff Sessions. If I understand GH’s views correctly, if you’re not actively part of the solution then you are part of the problem. The guilt doesn’t reference your individual actions/feelings, but rather your implicit acceptance of a heinous status quo and witnessing the anger and suffering resulting from said status quo. Placing blame on the Russians for their anger helps alleviate the blame on Americans. As for Jeff Sessions, I would imagine GH would argue that it’s ultimately beneficial he’s in power for the same reason GH sees benefit in Trump; the shittier things get, the more likely actions will replace words (revolution). If that is his position, then it's not really that new or particularly controversial. MLK Jr. said it, too. Moderates who are willing to keep the status quo because it's not too bad for them diffuse the energy of a movement for change in a way that nothing else really does. The enemy of social change is apathy, not the people actively fighting back against it. The only question is what kind of fighting is effective, in what doses, and what is considered "enough" to not be an enemy. Someone who is *actually* doing their best would 1. Go to school for a career that makes the most money possible. Law is the best because being a lawyer can be extremely helpful when working in social justice activism. 2. Actively organize events and marches and everything under the sun while in school 3. Graduate, continue to do everything in (2) 4. Find some way to live as cheaply as possible, roommates etc while pulling 6 figs 5. Spend ALL resources on advertising, outreach, billboards etc all focused around ending systematic racism in the country 6. Never marry, never have kids because it is just emotionally masturbatory to indulge in family/romance when people are being murdered by police 7. When near death, suicide bomb some white supremist meeting 8. Die with zero in the bank account There are probably a few things that could be added, but the above is the only way someone could truly be doing everything they can. Anyone who does not do the things I listed above are technically calling it good at some point and saying it makes more sense to indulge in life's pleasures while children are being imprisoned and many others are being killed or disenfranchised or emotionally scarred by racism. Pretty much no matter where you draw the line, you are making a conscious decision to decrease your total social progress output. As a lawyer, you could always be working cases pro-bono where it appears someone was wrongly convicted or otherwise excessively convicted for a crime because of racism. When you decide to go see a movie, that is 2 hours and $20 you could have spent saving a man's life from wrongful imprisonment. You need to really be honest about what is possible and realize people are literally dying because of inaction. People who only do social activism work on the weekends are making a conscious decision to let innocent blacks either die or be imprisoned just for the sake of indulging in life's pleasures.
yes, I would agree that being politically active is fun & fulfilling. That said, I think that Trump pulling out of the Iran deal just to appease Israel is a little short sighted. I do like that he did follow through on his promise that he made in the campaign, though. Sometimes I think that he spends more time catering to his core base than he does trying to please the masses, & that will not win him any friends among the liberals
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On May 11 2018 08:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 07:55 Kyadytim wrote:On May 11 2018 06:40 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 05:47 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I'm an immigrant baby. It isn't my fault. I am Hispanic and didn't do any of that shit. I've endured racism as well. It blows ass. Are you saying some component of this is my fault? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by being absolved of guilt. What guilt? On May 11 2018 05:14 Evotroid wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I think the problem is, the Russians don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to sow dissent, just like how they supported every single Eurosceptic party, not because they are oh so worried about our sovereignty. Considering we are discussing the fact that this was done to increase black skepticism of existing institutions all for the sake of depressing black turnout for Clinton, all of this was geared towards Jeff Sessions becoming AG. Most people would consider that an unsuccessful instance of activism. No matter how you slice it, the intent was to prevent Clinton from being president, which resulted in AG Jeff Sessions. Black anger was used to create a worse situation for black Americans. They were not only used, they were used against themselves. Note: black americans are not to blame for that. They did nothing wrong. Clinton would not abolish the police, but I can be sure her AG would not be as bad as Jeff Sessions. If I understand GH’s views correctly, if you’re not actively part of the solution then you are part of the problem. The guilt doesn’t reference your individual actions/feelings, but rather your implicit acceptance of a heinous status quo and witnessing the anger and suffering resulting from said status quo. Placing blame on the Russians for their anger helps alleviate the blame on Americans. As for Jeff Sessions, I would imagine GH would argue that it’s ultimately beneficial he’s in power for the same reason GH sees benefit in Trump; the shittier things get, the more likely actions will replace words (revolution). If that is his position, then it's not really that new or particularly controversial. MLK Jr. said it, too. Moderates who are willing to keep the status quo because it's not too bad for them diffuse the energy of a movement for change in a way that nothing else really does. The enemy of social change is apathy, not the people actively fighting back against it. The only question is what kind of fighting is effective, in what doses, and what is considered "enough" to not be an enemy. Someone who is *actually* doing their best would 1. Go to school for a career that makes the most money possible. Law is the best because being a lawyer can be extremely helpful when working in social justice activism. 2. Actively organize events and marches and everything under the sun while in school 3. Graduate, continue to do everything in (2) 4. Find some way to live as cheaply as possible, roommates etc while pulling 6 figs 5. Spend ALL resources on advertising, outreach, billboards etc all focused around ending systematic racism in the country 6. Never marry, never have kids because it is just emotionally masturbatory to indulge in family/romance when people are being murdered by police 7. When near death, suicide bomb some white supremist meeting 8. Die with zero in the bank account There are probably a few things that could be added, but the above is the only way someone could truly be doing everything they can. Anyone who does not do the things I listed above are technically calling it good at some point and saying it makes more sense to indulge in life's pleasures while children are being imprisoned and many others are being killed or disenfranchised or emotionally scarred by racism. Pretty much no matter where you draw the line, you are making a conscious decision to decrease your total social progress output. As a lawyer, you could always be working cases pro-bono where it appears someone was wrongly convicted or otherwise excessively convicted for a crime because of racism. When you decide to go see a movie, that is 2 hours and $20 you could have spent saving a man's life from wrongful imprisonment. You need to really be honest about what is possible and realize people are literally dying because of inaction. People who only do social activism work on the weekends are making a conscious decision to let innocent blacks either die or be imprisoned just for the sake of indulging in life's pleasures.
Here's the thing though, if White people (including white Hispanic) just did the bare minimum it'd already be resolved. It's not a matter of people dedicating every waking moment to liberation, it's a matter of white America showing a bare minimum level of humanity to their fellow citizens that aren't white.
That would include not spreading propaganda attempting to undermine the legitimate actions of Black leftists by insinuating they were provoked by Russia, rather than the centuries of abuse. The ads weren't nearly as upsetting as someone trying to pretend they had anything to do with Black leftists.
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On May 11 2018 08:42 A3th3r wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 08:19 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 07:55 Kyadytim wrote:On May 11 2018 06:40 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 05:47 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I'm an immigrant baby. It isn't my fault. I am Hispanic and didn't do any of that shit. I've endured racism as well. It blows ass. Are you saying some component of this is my fault? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by being absolved of guilt. What guilt? On May 11 2018 05:14 Evotroid wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I think the problem is, the Russians don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to sow dissent, just like how they supported every single Eurosceptic party, not because they are oh so worried about our sovereignty. Considering we are discussing the fact that this was done to increase black skepticism of existing institutions all for the sake of depressing black turnout for Clinton, all of this was geared towards Jeff Sessions becoming AG. Most people would consider that an unsuccessful instance of activism. No matter how you slice it, the intent was to prevent Clinton from being president, which resulted in AG Jeff Sessions. Black anger was used to create a worse situation for black Americans. They were not only used, they were used against themselves. Note: black americans are not to blame for that. They did nothing wrong. Clinton would not abolish the police, but I can be sure her AG would not be as bad as Jeff Sessions. If I understand GH’s views correctly, if you’re not actively part of the solution then you are part of the problem. The guilt doesn’t reference your individual actions/feelings, but rather your implicit acceptance of a heinous status quo and witnessing the anger and suffering resulting from said status quo. Placing blame on the Russians for their anger helps alleviate the blame on Americans. As for Jeff Sessions, I would imagine GH would argue that it’s ultimately beneficial he’s in power for the same reason GH sees benefit in Trump; the shittier things get, the more likely actions will replace words (revolution). If that is his position, then it's not really that new or particularly controversial. MLK Jr. said it, too. Moderates who are willing to keep the status quo because it's not too bad for them diffuse the energy of a movement for change in a way that nothing else really does. The enemy of social change is apathy, not the people actively fighting back against it. The only question is what kind of fighting is effective, in what doses, and what is considered "enough" to not be an enemy. Someone who is *actually* doing their best would 1. Go to school for a career that makes the most money possible. Law is the best because being a lawyer can be extremely helpful when working in social justice activism. 2. Actively organize events and marches and everything under the sun while in school 3. Graduate, continue to do everything in (2) 4. Find some way to live as cheaply as possible, roommates etc while pulling 6 figs 5. Spend ALL resources on advertising, outreach, billboards etc all focused around ending systematic racism in the country 6. Never marry, never have kids because it is just emotionally masturbatory to indulge in family/romance when people are being murdered by police 7. When near death, suicide bomb some white supremist meeting 8. Die with zero in the bank account There are probably a few things that could be added, but the above is the only way someone could truly be doing everything they can. Anyone who does not do the things I listed above are technically calling it good at some point and saying it makes more sense to indulge in life's pleasures while children are being imprisoned and many others are being killed or disenfranchised or emotionally scarred by racism. Pretty much no matter where you draw the line, you are making a conscious decision to decrease your total social progress output. As a lawyer, you could always be working cases pro-bono where it appears someone was wrongly convicted or otherwise excessively convicted for a crime because of racism. When you decide to go see a movie, that is 2 hours and $20 you could have spent saving a man's life from wrongful imprisonment. You need to really be honest about what is possible and realize people are literally dying because of inaction. People who only do social activism work on the weekends are making a conscious decision to let innocent blacks either die or be imprisoned just for the sake of indulging in life's pleasures. yes, I would agree that being politically active is fun & fulfilling. That said, I think that Trump pulling out of the Iran deal just to appease Israel is a little short sighted. I do like that he did follow through on his promise that he made in the campaign, though. Sometimes I think that he spends more time catering to his core base than he does trying to please the masses, & that will not win him any friends among the liberals
I'd say he's very focused on his core base compared to the masses; considerably moreso than most politicians. He really does very little for the public at large that I can recall.
on the campaign promise; it's an interesting perennial question: should someone follow through on a bad campaign promise? especially once they're in a position to access the intel which gives them a much better understanding of why it's a bad idea. Should any credit be given for someone upholding their word if doing so means doing something bad?
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On May 11 2018 08:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 08:19 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 07:55 Kyadytim wrote:On May 11 2018 06:40 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 05:47 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I'm an immigrant baby. It isn't my fault. I am Hispanic and didn't do any of that shit. I've endured racism as well. It blows ass. Are you saying some component of this is my fault? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by being absolved of guilt. What guilt? On May 11 2018 05:14 Evotroid wrote:On May 11 2018 04:38 Ryzel wrote:On May 11 2018 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On May 11 2018 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Mohdoo's framing does have the overtone that far left folks "fell for it". Propaganda has the ability to influence anyone. There no secret political leaning, profession or trick we can preform to become immune that potential. People on the far left or right are no more likely than a centrist to buy into false stories meant to stoke divisions. It's not about political leanings. It is about experiences. If someone has had a really rough life, they are a lot more likely to grasp onto something that will make their lives better. White rich mothers do not suffer from racism. They live comfy lives. They don't have anything to revolt against because they are doing just fine. People on the far left/right and black activists are all groups that believe things are severely bad right now. It is the same mechanism that allows for people whose family members were killed by drones to become radicalized. But as I said, black activists have legitimate grievances. Very legitimate. Anyone who is made to suffer throughout their lives will be more vulnerable to promises of a better tomorrow. It is the same reason coal miners and steele makers are easy to manipulate by Trump. They feel weakened and powerless and Trump offered them a hope of power. It is all just basic psychology. It has nothing to do with political leanings. It is all about suffering and needing relief from suffering. Black activists have every reason to feel awful. It would take an insane amount of emotional resilience to not be impacted. No one is like that. We are only human and living through racism is devastating. I have endured much less than what most black people go through and it was really hard on me growing up. It's an experience so so specific and shitty you gotta experience it to know it. There is no shame in being emotionally impacted by racism. Mohdoo, we get that you feel sympathetic toward black leftists, but GH’s gripe is that sympathy absolves feelings of guilt without actually taking action on what’s causing the guilt. “Black people are right to be angry” + “Russia is targeting Black anger” = “Damn those dastardly Russians for taking advantage of Black anger (not like it’s my fault or anything)” I think the problem is, the Russians don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it to sow dissent, just like how they supported every single Eurosceptic party, not because they are oh so worried about our sovereignty. Considering we are discussing the fact that this was done to increase black skepticism of existing institutions all for the sake of depressing black turnout for Clinton, all of this was geared towards Jeff Sessions becoming AG. Most people would consider that an unsuccessful instance of activism. No matter how you slice it, the intent was to prevent Clinton from being president, which resulted in AG Jeff Sessions. Black anger was used to create a worse situation for black Americans. They were not only used, they were used against themselves. Note: black americans are not to blame for that. They did nothing wrong. Clinton would not abolish the police, but I can be sure her AG would not be as bad as Jeff Sessions. If I understand GH’s views correctly, if you’re not actively part of the solution then you are part of the problem. The guilt doesn’t reference your individual actions/feelings, but rather your implicit acceptance of a heinous status quo and witnessing the anger and suffering resulting from said status quo. Placing blame on the Russians for their anger helps alleviate the blame on Americans. As for Jeff Sessions, I would imagine GH would argue that it’s ultimately beneficial he’s in power for the same reason GH sees benefit in Trump; the shittier things get, the more likely actions will replace words (revolution). If that is his position, then it's not really that new or particularly controversial. MLK Jr. said it, too. Moderates who are willing to keep the status quo because it's not too bad for them diffuse the energy of a movement for change in a way that nothing else really does. The enemy of social change is apathy, not the people actively fighting back against it. The only question is what kind of fighting is effective, in what doses, and what is considered "enough" to not be an enemy. Someone who is *actually* doing their best would 1. Go to school for a career that makes the most money possible. Law is the best because being a lawyer can be extremely helpful when working in social justice activism. 2. Actively organize events and marches and everything under the sun while in school 3. Graduate, continue to do everything in (2) 4. Find some way to live as cheaply as possible, roommates etc while pulling 6 figs 5. Spend ALL resources on advertising, outreach, billboards etc all focused around ending systematic racism in the country 6. Never marry, never have kids because it is just emotionally masturbatory to indulge in family/romance when people are being murdered by police 7. When near death, suicide bomb some white supremist meeting 8. Die with zero in the bank account There are probably a few things that could be added, but the above is the only way someone could truly be doing everything they can. Anyone who does not do the things I listed above are technically calling it good at some point and saying it makes more sense to indulge in life's pleasures while children are being imprisoned and many others are being killed or disenfranchised or emotionally scarred by racism. Pretty much no matter where you draw the line, you are making a conscious decision to decrease your total social progress output. As a lawyer, you could always be working cases pro-bono where it appears someone was wrongly convicted or otherwise excessively convicted for a crime because of racism. When you decide to go see a movie, that is 2 hours and $20 you could have spent saving a man's life from wrongful imprisonment. You need to really be honest about what is possible and realize people are literally dying because of inaction. People who only do social activism work on the weekends are making a conscious decision to let innocent blacks either die or be imprisoned just for the sake of indulging in life's pleasures. Here's the thing though, if White people (including white Hispanic) just did the bare minimum it'd already be resolved. It's not a matter of people dedicating every waking moment to liberation, it's a matter of white America showing a bare minimum level of humanity to their fellow citizens that aren't white. That would include not spreading propaganda attempting to undermine the legitimate actions of Black leftists by insinuating they were provoked by Russia, rather than the centuries of abuse. The ads weren't nearly as upsetting as someone trying to pretend they had anything to do with Black leftists.
Don't the majority of white people do the 'bare minimum' already?
Or do you think the majority of white Americans are actively racist?
This is a genuine question. Race is still an issue in the UK of course, but the dynamics are completely different.
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Not being racist is not the bare minimum. It simply existing without actively trying to screw people. It is accomplishment of a one year old.
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Bare minimum would probably be acknowledging the Black struggle/voice (perhaps even reading a prominent author or two), letting oneself be rightly outraged by what’s being done to the Black community on the daily, taking criticism of the Black struggle/voice with a grain of salt (especially if originating from outside the Black community), and calling out bullshit when you see/hear it.
Bonus points for writing a letter to congressional candidates asking them what they will do in their power to reduce racial inequality.
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On May 11 2018 09:05 iamthedave wrote:
Don't the majority of white people do the 'bare minimum' already?
Or do you think the majority of white Americans are actively racist?
This is a genuine question. Race is still an issue in the UK of course, but the dynamics are completely different.
EDIT: I have no idea why it's triple posted. For some reason it won't let me delete the posts either. Could a mod clean this up somehow?
I agree with P6 and Ryzel on this pretty much. No, they don't.
As to whether the majority of white Americans are 'actively racist', I once again defer to brother Baldwin
“I’m terrified at the moral apathy — the death of the heart which is happening in my country. These people have deluded themselves for so long, that they really don’t think I’m human. I base this on their conduct, not on what they say, and this means that they have become, in themselves, moral monsters.”
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On May 11 2018 09:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 09:05 iamthedave wrote:
Don't the majority of white people do the 'bare minimum' already?
Or do you think the majority of white Americans are actively racist?
This is a genuine question. Race is still an issue in the UK of course, but the dynamics are completely different.
EDIT: I have no idea why it's triple posted. For some reason it won't let me delete the posts either. Could a mod clean this up somehow? I agree with P6 and Ryzel on this pretty much. No, they don't. As to whether the majority of white Americans are 'actively racist', I once again defer to brother Baldwin Show nested quote +“I’m terrified at the moral apathy — the death of the heart which is happening in my country. These people have deluded themselves for so long, that they really don’t think I’m human. I base this on their conduct, not on what they say, and this means that they have become, in themselves, moral monsters.”
All that quote says to me is that the author has no idea about the greater nature of humanity or of human societies. That he is somehow holding one group to a higher standard of morality, empathy, altruism, and knowledge than has been achieved by any human society. In a sense it reveals that the author also doesn't consider the people he is talking about human.
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On May 11 2018 13:06 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 09:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 11 2018 09:05 iamthedave wrote:
Don't the majority of white people do the 'bare minimum' already?
Or do you think the majority of white Americans are actively racist?
This is a genuine question. Race is still an issue in the UK of course, but the dynamics are completely different.
EDIT: I have no idea why it's triple posted. For some reason it won't let me delete the posts either. Could a mod clean this up somehow? I agree with P6 and Ryzel on this pretty much. No, they don't. As to whether the majority of white Americans are 'actively racist', I once again defer to brother Baldwin “I’m terrified at the moral apathy — the death of the heart which is happening in my country. These people have deluded themselves for so long, that they really don’t think I’m human. I base this on their conduct, not on what they say, and this means that they have become, in themselves, moral monsters.” All that quote says to me is that the author has no idea about the nature of humanity or of human societies. That he is somehow holding one group to a higher standard of morality, empathy, altruism, and knowledge than has been achieved by any human society. In a sense it reveals that the author also doesn't consider the people he is talking about human.
I'm pretty confident he knew a great deal more about the nature of humanity than his current critic.
The asinine appeal to ''human nature" dictating people being terrible to each other, as if we don't have frontal lobes aside... the idea that white Americans need to be held to some higher standard than ever achieved in humanity is a magnificent but fictional creation.
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On May 11 2018 13:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 13:06 Slaughter wrote:On May 11 2018 09:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 11 2018 09:05 iamthedave wrote:
Don't the majority of white people do the 'bare minimum' already?
Or do you think the majority of white Americans are actively racist?
This is a genuine question. Race is still an issue in the UK of course, but the dynamics are completely different.
EDIT: I have no idea why it's triple posted. For some reason it won't let me delete the posts either. Could a mod clean this up somehow? I agree with P6 and Ryzel on this pretty much. No, they don't. As to whether the majority of white Americans are 'actively racist', I once again defer to brother Baldwin “I’m terrified at the moral apathy — the death of the heart which is happening in my country. These people have deluded themselves for so long, that they really don’t think I’m human. I base this on their conduct, not on what they say, and this means that they have become, in themselves, moral monsters.” All that quote says to me is that the author has no idea about the nature of humanity or of human societies. That he is somehow holding one group to a higher standard of morality, empathy, altruism, and knowledge than has been achieved by any human society. In a sense it reveals that the author also doesn't consider the people he is talking about human. I'm pretty confident he knew a great deal more about the nature of humanity than his current critic. The asinine appeal to ''human nature" dictating people being terrible to each other, as if we don't have frontal lobes aside, the idea that white Americans need to be held to some higher standard than ever achieved in humanity is a magnificent but fictional creation.
What I meant is that his work was pretty focused purely on western (mostly the US) and lacks greater perspective of humanity. Focusing primarily just on the part of the quote "the death of the heart happening in my county" to me shows that he thinks the US is unique in its moral crisis. This isn't anything new. Its not really an appeal to human nature, more or less looking at a bigger historical picture of our species.
And yes, the idea that white americans are monsters when most of them are ignorant of happenings outside their immediate social sphere, poor, divided by all kinds of ideologies, fed all kinda of garbage information, and overall as powerless as anyone else to really put into place effective change is garbage. They can't even wrangle significant change in favor of themselves. Most advantages Whites enjoy were built into the system long ago and are at a level so ingrained they don't even know about much less have any clue how to actually change.
Its pretty much what a lot of your posts allude to, that some major revolution is likely needed. That is something you have slowly made me come around to. I just think of everyone I know hating the current political system more and more and all they seemingly want to do is "wait" until some "good" politician comes along when the parties just shove out more of the same elites who don't really give a shit. Your discussions surrounding the two major parties (particularly the DNC) have really been helpful in crystallizing just how much a iron grip they have and the toxicity that monopology has led to.
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On May 11 2018 13:33 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 13:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 11 2018 13:06 Slaughter wrote:On May 11 2018 09:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 11 2018 09:05 iamthedave wrote:
Don't the majority of white people do the 'bare minimum' already?
Or do you think the majority of white Americans are actively racist?
This is a genuine question. Race is still an issue in the UK of course, but the dynamics are completely different.
EDIT: I have no idea why it's triple posted. For some reason it won't let me delete the posts either. Could a mod clean this up somehow? I agree with P6 and Ryzel on this pretty much. No, they don't. As to whether the majority of white Americans are 'actively racist', I once again defer to brother Baldwin “I’m terrified at the moral apathy — the death of the heart which is happening in my country. These people have deluded themselves for so long, that they really don’t think I’m human. I base this on their conduct, not on what they say, and this means that they have become, in themselves, moral monsters.” All that quote says to me is that the author has no idea about the nature of humanity or of human societies. That he is somehow holding one group to a higher standard of morality, empathy, altruism, and knowledge than has been achieved by any human society. In a sense it reveals that the author also doesn't consider the people he is talking about human. I'm pretty confident he knew a great deal more about the nature of humanity than his current critic. The asinine appeal to ''human nature" dictating people being terrible to each other, as if we don't have frontal lobes aside, the idea that white Americans need to be held to some higher standard than ever achieved in humanity is a magnificent but fictional creation. What I meant is that his work was pretty focused purely on western (mostly the US) and lacks greater perspective of humanity. Focusing primarily just on the part of the quote "the death of the heart happening in my county" to me shows that he thinks the US is unique in its moral crisis. This isn't anything new. Its not really an appeal to human nature, more or less looking at a bigger historical picture of our species. And yes, the idea that white americans are monsters when most of them are ignorant of happenings outside their immediate social sphere, poor, divided by all kinds of ideologies, fed all kinda of garbage information, and overall as powerless as anyone else to really put into place effective change is garbage. They can't even wrangle significant change in favor of themselves. Most advantages Whites enjoy were built into the system long ago and are at a level so ingrained they don't even know about much less have any clue how to actually change. Its pretty much what a lot of your posts allude to, that some major revolution is likely needed. That is something you have slowly made me come around to. I just think of everyone I know hating the current political system more and more and all they seemingly want to do is "wait" until some "good" politician comes along when the parties just shove out more of the same elites who don't really give a shit. Your discussions surrounding the two major parties (particularly the DNC) have really been helpful in crystallizing just how much a iron grip they have and the toxicity that monopology has led to.
The US isn't unique in the way that people are terrible to each other throughout history, it was unique in it's particular circumstances and place in the world (for better or worse).
In the modern western world the US was uniquely evil to it's own citizens, no less ones that were integral to it's construction. Other countries hadn't written such bold lies into hollow and fruitless laws, Black people existed more freely as immigrant visitors throughout much of Europe than they did in the US where their rights were allegedly guaranteed and protected by the constitution and those loyal to it.
The US's cruelty to Black people and various tribes throughout the land was relatively uniquely horrible in the contemporary modern west. Recognition and understanding of all that is important, but recognizing the need for revolution is a win I don't want to sour with lecturing right now 
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On May 11 2018 13:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 13:33 Slaughter wrote:On May 11 2018 13:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 11 2018 13:06 Slaughter wrote:On May 11 2018 09:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 11 2018 09:05 iamthedave wrote:
Don't the majority of white people do the 'bare minimum' already?
Or do you think the majority of white Americans are actively racist?
This is a genuine question. Race is still an issue in the UK of course, but the dynamics are completely different.
EDIT: I have no idea why it's triple posted. For some reason it won't let me delete the posts either. Could a mod clean this up somehow? I agree with P6 and Ryzel on this pretty much. No, they don't. As to whether the majority of white Americans are 'actively racist', I once again defer to brother Baldwin “I’m terrified at the moral apathy — the death of the heart which is happening in my country. These people have deluded themselves for so long, that they really don’t think I’m human. I base this on their conduct, not on what they say, and this means that they have become, in themselves, moral monsters.” All that quote says to me is that the author has no idea about the nature of humanity or of human societies. That he is somehow holding one group to a higher standard of morality, empathy, altruism, and knowledge than has been achieved by any human society. In a sense it reveals that the author also doesn't consider the people he is talking about human. I'm pretty confident he knew a great deal more about the nature of humanity than his current critic. The asinine appeal to ''human nature" dictating people being terrible to each other, as if we don't have frontal lobes aside, the idea that white Americans need to be held to some higher standard than ever achieved in humanity is a magnificent but fictional creation. What I meant is that his work was pretty focused purely on western (mostly the US) and lacks greater perspective of humanity. Focusing primarily just on the part of the quote "the death of the heart happening in my county" to me shows that he thinks the US is unique in its moral crisis. This isn't anything new. Its not really an appeal to human nature, more or less looking at a bigger historical picture of our species. And yes, the idea that white americans are monsters when most of them are ignorant of happenings outside their immediate social sphere, poor, divided by all kinds of ideologies, fed all kinda of garbage information, and overall as powerless as anyone else to really put into place effective change is garbage. They can't even wrangle significant change in favor of themselves. Most advantages Whites enjoy were built into the system long ago and are at a level so ingrained they don't even know about much less have any clue how to actually change. Its pretty much what a lot of your posts allude to, that some major revolution is likely needed. That is something you have slowly made me come around to. I just think of everyone I know hating the current political system more and more and all they seemingly want to do is "wait" until some "good" politician comes along when the parties just shove out more of the same elites who don't really give a shit. Your discussions surrounding the two major parties (particularly the DNC) have really been helpful in crystallizing just how much a iron grip they have and the toxicity that monopology has led to. The US isn't unique in the way that people are terrible to each other throughout history, it was unique in it's particular circumstances and place in the world (for better or worse). In the modern western world the US was uniquely evil to it's own citizens, no less ones that were integral to it's construction. Other countries hadn't written such bold lies into hollow and fruitless laws, Black people existed more freely as immigrant visitors throughout much of Europe than they did in the US where their rights were allegedly guaranteed and protected by the constitution and those loyal to it. The US's cruelty to Black people and various tribes throughout the land was relatively uniquely horrible in the contemporary modern west. Recognition and understanding of all that is important, but recognizing the need for revolution is a win I don't want to sour with lecturing right now
I will agree with you on the bold lies part. The US really went hard with propaganda anointing itself as the shining city on the hill and the american dream (especially integrated into its education system). Which is why the US is probably the most hypocritical state in the history of the world.
I would also welcome a lecture (or discussion) from you anytime.
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Even Scaramucci is like "Well that was fast" rofl.
Rudy Giuliani resigns from law firm over TV appearances
Rudy Giuliani resigned from his law firm after his partners got fed up with his bloviating defense of President Trump during a series of over-the-top media appearances, a new report said Thursday.
The ex-mayor took a leave of absence in April from the firm, Greenberg Traurig, to defend Trump in special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia probe and other controversies, including the $130,000 payoff to porn star Stormy Daniels.
But the firm said Thursday that he had quit the day before, the New York Times reported.
“After recognizing that this work is all consuming and is lasting longer than initially anticipated, Rudy has determined it is best for him to resign,” said the law firm’s chairman, Richard Rosenbaum.
In a statement released by the firm, Giuliani said it “is in everyone’s best interest that I make it a permanent resignation” so that he could focus on the Russia probe.
Firm partners cringed after Giuliani’s comments about the payment that Trump fixer Michael Cohen made to Daniels to keep her quiet about a one-night stand she said she had with Trump in 2006, the paper reported.
Giuliani said that such payments were made all the time, including at his prestigious firm, one of the nation’s largest.
“That was money that was paid by his lawyer, the way I would do, out of his law firm funds,” he said on Fox News.
“Michael would take care of things like this like I take care of this with my clients.”
Later Thursday, the firm gave the paper a statement about those comments.
“We can’t speak for Mr. Giuliani with respect to what was intended by his remarks. Speaking for ourselves, we would not condone payments of the nature alleged to have been made or otherwise without the knowledge and direction of a client,” the statement said.
Cohen initially said that Trump didn’t know about the payment to Daniels — as did the president himself last month.
But Giuliani later blew that story out of the water when he said that Trump had reimbursed his fixer.
The bad blood between Giuliani and his colleagues goes back further than that, beginning in 2016 when he emerged as one of Trump’s loudest defenders during the campaign. https://nypost.com/2018/05/10/rudy-giuliani-resigns-from-law-firm-over-tv-appearances/
I'm guessing that RG figured that he would need to focus all of his attention on undermining everything Trump says, and wouldn't be able to spend any time having other clients or representing a law firm, which is a politically correct way of saying that his partners pushed him out because he's a raving lunatic.
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On May 11 2018 13:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2018 13:33 Slaughter wrote:On May 11 2018 13:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 11 2018 13:06 Slaughter wrote:On May 11 2018 09:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 11 2018 09:05 iamthedave wrote:
Don't the majority of white people do the 'bare minimum' already?
Or do you think the majority of white Americans are actively racist?
This is a genuine question. Race is still an issue in the UK of course, but the dynamics are completely different.
EDIT: I have no idea why it's triple posted. For some reason it won't let me delete the posts either. Could a mod clean this up somehow? I agree with P6 and Ryzel on this pretty much. No, they don't. As to whether the majority of white Americans are 'actively racist', I once again defer to brother Baldwin “I’m terrified at the moral apathy — the death of the heart which is happening in my country. These people have deluded themselves for so long, that they really don’t think I’m human. I base this on their conduct, not on what they say, and this means that they have become, in themselves, moral monsters.” All that quote says to me is that the author has no idea about the nature of humanity or of human societies. That he is somehow holding one group to a higher standard of morality, empathy, altruism, and knowledge than has been achieved by any human society. In a sense it reveals that the author also doesn't consider the people he is talking about human. I'm pretty confident he knew a great deal more about the nature of humanity than his current critic. The asinine appeal to ''human nature" dictating people being terrible to each other, as if we don't have frontal lobes aside, the idea that white Americans need to be held to some higher standard than ever achieved in humanity is a magnificent but fictional creation. What I meant is that his work was pretty focused purely on western (mostly the US) and lacks greater perspective of humanity. Focusing primarily just on the part of the quote "the death of the heart happening in my county" to me shows that he thinks the US is unique in its moral crisis. This isn't anything new. Its not really an appeal to human nature, more or less looking at a bigger historical picture of our species. And yes, the idea that white americans are monsters when most of them are ignorant of happenings outside their immediate social sphere, poor, divided by all kinds of ideologies, fed all kinda of garbage information, and overall as powerless as anyone else to really put into place effective change is garbage. They can't even wrangle significant change in favor of themselves. Most advantages Whites enjoy were built into the system long ago and are at a level so ingrained they don't even know about much less have any clue how to actually change. Its pretty much what a lot of your posts allude to, that some major revolution is likely needed. That is something you have slowly made me come around to. I just think of everyone I know hating the current political system more and more and all they seemingly want to do is "wait" until some "good" politician comes along when the parties just shove out more of the same elites who don't really give a shit. Your discussions surrounding the two major parties (particularly the DNC) have really been helpful in crystallizing just how much a iron grip they have and the toxicity that monopology has led to. The US isn't unique in the way that people are terrible to each other throughout history, it was unique in it's particular circumstances and place in the world (for better or worse). In the modern western world the US was uniquely evil to it's own citizens, no less ones that were integral to it's construction. Other countries hadn't written such bold lies into hollow and fruitless laws, Black people existed more freely as immigrant visitors throughout much of Europe than they did in the US where their rights were allegedly guaranteed and protected by the constitution and those loyal to it. The US's cruelty to Black people and various tribes throughout the land was relatively uniquely horrible in the contemporary modern west. Recognition and understanding of all that is important, but recognizing the need for revolution is a win I don't want to sour with lecturing right now
I'd agree with this. The UK I think is the closest comparison, since we did a ton of evil in our GLORIOUS EMPIRE. But one critical point we kept to was that slavery was for the colonies, and was never actually legalised in the UK (under the admittedly not exactly morally pure grounds that everyone, skin colour regardless, belonged to her majesty the queen of england, and so nobody could claim a higher ownership than that). There were plenty of cases of law-savvy negros sneaking off the ships of their owners in dock and claiming citizens' rights, that were almost invariably upheld in the court. Summed up best by a judge's rather simple conclusion to a trial in 1763: "soon as a man sets foot on English ground he is free."
Of course they always gave the judgements orally rather than written, to avoid that problem of precedent overseas.
The point being, though, slavery never came home to Britain, not really, and so we never had a culture of dehumanising the black man once the empire collapsed, and we had an actual black sub-population from servants and families brought over from the indies and other colonies, or actual slaves who escaped their masters or were set free in the abolition.
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EPT
