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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8960 Posts
The Washington Post · 1 day ago Lawyer for Virginia Lt. Gov. Fairfax says witness will corroborate that sexual encounter was consensual So maybe they are waiting for this to play out? I mean. He's a Lt Gov. Your party put one on the USSC. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 12 2019 06:20 Danglars wrote: Democrats are free to change their stance towards fighting it out from within office (I did say how people were regretting Franken's choice), though it would be a departure from trying to differentiate themselves from Kavanaugh. Do you think what Franken did is as bad as what Kavanaugh is alleged to have done? Do you think it is as bad as what Trump has done? These discussions are frustrating because people either adequate or differentiate as it suits them. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On July 12 2019 06:53 IgnE wrote: Do you think what Franken did is as bad as what Kavanaugh is alleged to have done? Do you think it is as bad as what Trump has done? These discussions are frustrating because people either adequate or differentiate as it suits them. No, I do not wish to compare severity, only question the treatment. I never gave credence to the Democratic talking point of “credibly accused” mattering at all. They’ll be fighting it out when it’s their ox being gored. Fairfax is the most recent example, of which rape and sexual assault are charged. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
In other words the question is not: does individual disagreement between individual Democrats and Republican on their respective sides indicate some partisan cynicism? The question is: how does either party stochastically react on the whole, and for the most part, in a given situation? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35118 Posts
On July 12 2019 03:47 KwarK wrote: In fairness there’s no evidence that Trump fucks kids. He bragged about being able to walk into changing rooms of teenage girls competing in his pageants and inspect the merchandise. He’s bragged about how he likes to sexually assault women. He’s spoken in pretty explicit terms about his desires for some inappropriately young women. His first wife alleged that he raped her, as have a number of other women including some that allege they were underage. But that just gets us motive, a history of doing these things, credible victims, a smoking gun, and videos of him talking about how he loves pulling triggers. We don’t have the video of him pulling the trigger. That depends on if you count depositions as evidence(I personally don't know). | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
The major divide in many “given situations” is arguably a divide over precisely what the “given situation” is: the presumed intentions, the presumed norms, the salience of the facts. Credibility in terms of assessing what the actual facts are has a curious relationship with all those non-factual assumptions. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10639 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 12 2019 05:08 IgnE wrote: This seems a bit out of touch. If credible accusations came out of sexual assault by Biden his political career would be over. Most democrats in 2019 take sexual assault allegations very seriously. Maybe before the primary, but if they came out in October 2020? Then what? I'd say more "his inappropriate touching of women and children is mostly innocent" type stuff. If that's totally blown then it's just "not as bad as Trump, this election is too important blah blah blah.." But like I said, the whole caging, murdering, and starving children is bad enough to lose my vote, but not for Democrats (or Republicans obviously). I'd point out there are lots of Democrats then and still that don't think Franken should have been tossed aside. I’m Not Convinced Franken Should Quit Franken urged to reverse his resignation | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
Re: Franken Yeah and actually I think it’s a legitimate question whether he should have been removed to be decided by the public. The public spoke and he is gone. But again, it’s toxic to equate what Franken did with rape. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 12 2019 09:33 IgnE wrote: If such revelations came out in October 2020 it would be a catastrophe. But you are simply wrong to think that a credible rape allegation would result in more “mostly innocent blah blah blah.” Stop acting like there are no differences between inappropriate physical touching during meet and greets and rape. Re: Franken Yeah and actually I think it’s a legitimate question whether he should have been removed to be decided by the public. The public spoke and he is gone. But again, it’s toxic to equate what Franken did with rape. I'm not acting like there's no difference in the abuse.This is also why I'd rather focus on the caging, (being accomplices in) murder and starving children. Because those aren't allegations and Democratic support of people responsible has been abundantly clear. So I'm skeptical it's innocent children suffering/dying as a result of the politicians they support that is intolerable for them, since as a matter of fact it hasn't been. It appears to me to be partisan sniping that conveniently ignores their own practically identical behavior. (looking past atrocious positions/behavior for political expediency) Democrats put entirely too much faith in the "our gropers, child cagers, and murderous foreign policy directors are less atrocious than theirs" argument. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8960 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 12 2019 09:58 IgnE wrote: You see the problem with saying “I’m not saying there’s no difference” followed almost immediately by “[they ignore] their own practically identical behavior [...] Democrats put entirely too much faith in the ‘our gropers [...] are less atrocious than theirs’ argument,” I take it? No, because of the parts you're leaving out. I recognize Biden's touching of children is less problematic than allegations against Trump, I'm pointing out why that's not a convincing argument to me. On July 12 2019 09:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: That this is what rankles you, but your proposed revolution and the consequences following it, doesn't, speaks about your ideals. What do you think would happen in a fully resisted revolution? The revolutionaries wouldn't be the one's bombing school buses full of kids, that would still be US/western oligarchs and their minions. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 12 2019 10:08 IgnE wrote: @GH my point is why are you including self-contradictory and exaggerated arguments if you think the stuff “left out” is persuasive on its own? Because they still have gropers, harassers, etc... in prominent positions. You're right I could leave it out but I think it works well to see how the less problematic touching vs more problematic is largely a distraction from bipartisan support for candidates sharing responsibility for caging, murdering and starving women and children. Also why the "Trump's worse" argument is kinda gross even if it's true. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On July 12 2019 10:06 xDaunt wrote: The problem that democrats have with sexual harassment is the same one that they have with racism and identity politics: an utter lack of justifiable principle. In creating retarded, unjustifiable standards to attack their conservative political opponents (“all victims must be believed” is a good example) in the name pure political expediency, the inevitable consequence is that democrats would use these standards against themselves. Stated another way, Democrats are practicing the politics of cannibalism. The inevitable consequence of setting a new standard is that you would apply it to yourself as well. Ya don't say. Almost like taking a hard stance against sexual harassment isn't a matter of political expediency, or something. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
I think the latter doesn't get us anywhere but a downward spiral toward fascism/oligarchy. On July 12 2019 10:46 IgnE wrote: if you think #Metoo is about saying Republicans are worse gropers than Democrats I think you are very mistaken #MeToo, like most issues summed up in a hashtag, means different things to different people. It's clearly about pointing at "them" being worse for some, and clearly not for others. EDIT: I was sort of hoping we'd end up exploring where our various worldviews leads us in regards to supporting a personally despicable person with ideal policy vs an otherwise great person with awful policy and the consequentialist view Mohdoo mentioned to justify the lesser evil argument. But mohdoo's engagement on the topic was limited and the conversation focused in on distinguishing Biden's inappropriate touching behavior from Trump's/allegations against him. | ||
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