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On July 12 2019 10:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Since it's come up there are two fundamental issues through which I frame political discussions, accountability and sustainability. I would juxtapose that to the primary framing of nearly everything else here for at least the last couple years of "Yes this is bad, but they are worse". I think the latter doesn't get us anywhere but a downward spiral toward fascism/oligarchy. Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 10:46 IgnE wrote:
if you think #Metoo is about saying Republicans are worse gropers than Democrats I think you are very mistaken #MeToo, like most issues summed up in a hashtag, means different things to different people. It's clearly about pointing at "them" being worse for some, and clearly not for others. EDIT: I was sort of hoping we'd end up exploring where our various worldviews leads us in regards to supporting a personally despicable person with ideal policy vs an otherwise great person with awful policy and the consequentialist view Mohdoo mentioned to justify the lesser evil argument. But mohdoo's engagement on the topic was limited and the conversation focused in on distinguishing Biden's inappropriate touching behavior from Trump's/allegations against him.
So do you still support Bernie? Would you still support Bernie if one of his campaign workers past or present said he had made inappropriate sexual advances and groped her?
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On July 12 2019 11:17 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 10:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Since it's come up there are two fundamental issues through which I frame political discussions, accountability and sustainability. I would juxtapose that to the primary framing of nearly everything else here for at least the last couple years of "Yes this is bad, but they are worse". I think the latter doesn't get us anywhere but a downward spiral toward fascism/oligarchy. On July 12 2019 10:46 IgnE wrote:
if you think #Metoo is about saying Republicans are worse gropers than Democrats I think you are very mistaken #MeToo, like most issues summed up in a hashtag, means different things to different people. It's clearly about pointing at "them" being worse for some, and clearly not for others. EDIT: I was sort of hoping we'd end up exploring where our various worldviews leads us in regards to supporting a personally despicable person with ideal policy vs an otherwise great person with awful policy and the consequentialist view Mohdoo mentioned to justify the lesser evil argument. But mohdoo's engagement on the topic was limited and the conversation focused in on distinguishing Biden's inappropriate touching behavior from Trump's/allegations against him. So do you still support Bernie? Would you still support Bernie if one of his campaign workers past or present said he had made inappropriate sexual advances and groped her?
No, not really, I've mentioned that, but it's easy to miss.
In 2020 I'm going to be asked (or expected) to vote for someone who supports horrific policy that portends certain catastrophe for hundreds of millions of people. The "lesser evil argument" would make supporting Bernie (or a worse nominee) a lot easier for me and make my political life less stressful and more lucrative (Bernie Merch sells well).
So no, I'm probably already not going to vote for/support Bernie and I'd be surprised if more than one of his campaign workers hadn't.
Alternatively, if I'm convinced by the consequentialist lesser evil argument, I think I could. I think people like Biden would still be a bridge too far though, but I can't say for sure.
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So who has a plan to avoid certain catastrophe?
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The thing I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you mistake good people making hard decisions, for bad people making awful decisions. And then lumping them together. This is a multifaceted world we inhabit and like the man with the many hats, you have to know which to wear at any given time. In the political arena, where you have people with many more years and much more experience than you, you will be played. And you will play others. What is currently going on in this political climate we find ourselves in, is literal 4D chess. Except we have no pieces on the board. We're playing blind-folded with our hands tied.
You can point and shout all you want about dems or reps being different sides to the same coin, but one side is corroded and unrecognizable, while the other has managed to retain some semblance of gleam. You fail to understand that simple fact: That terrible things happen. And all we can do is learn from it and do our best as a society to be better. You fail to realize that even the best of us, will be faced with making a horrid decision, in the best interest for the greater good. This is the world we inhabit. Good people will do their best to not kill, but it must be done by someone. And that person, must live with that decision.
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On July 12 2019 11:55 IgnE wrote:
So who has a plan to avoid certain catastrophe?
None of the Democratic candidates, Bernie's the most serious on the topic from my perspective though. Being the only one recognizing and emphasizing the necessity of direct action beyond voting for any hope of saving ourselves from it/having a plan that actually minimizes the dire circumstances we're condemning future generations to. It is however, woefully inadequate in my view.
Scientists have a pretty good grasp on the actual changes in emissions that would be required though.
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United States42656 Posts
On July 12 2019 11:55 IgnE wrote:
So who has a plan to avoid certain catastrophe?
Thanos
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On July 12 2019 13:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 11:55 IgnE wrote:
So who has a plan to avoid certain catastrophe? Thanos
A bad one I think we determined in the stupid questions thread, but technically he did at least have a plan lol. More or less gave you a coin flip of survival, which although grim, is better than what our current leaders (globally speaking) are able to muster.
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On July 12 2019 09:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 05:08 IgnE wrote:On July 12 2019 03:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2019 02:28 hunts wrote:
Are people seriously comparing Biden being creepy and slightly inappropriate with children to literally child sex trafficking? Are you really insinuating the two are the same or even remotely similar? That's just extremely disingenuous. What you're doing is akin to saying a guy who started a fist fight at a bar is equally as bad as Charles Manson. Sure Bidens interactions are a bit less than appropriate, but they were not malicious or sexual in any way. He didn't go around literally trafficking minors for sex like epstein did, and he didn't go around praising epsteins love of children like trump did. Not to mention there are literal accusations of trump raping minors. See, this is pretty much exactly the argument I was talking about would come in the general. Then if something like credible accusations of Biden doing more than acting "slightly inappropriately" with kids comes up, Democrats don't go "oh well, guess Trump wins, shrug". They instead explain how they oppose child molesters or whatever, but they have to vote for this one and you should too. This seems a bit out of touch. If credible accusations came out of sexual assault by Biden his political career would be over. Most democrats in 2019 take sexual assault allegations very seriously. Maybe before the primary, but if they came out in October 2020? Then what? I'd say more "his inappropriate touching of women and children is mostly innocent" type stuff. If that's totally blown then it's just "not as bad as Trump, this election is too important blah blah blah.." But like I said, the whole caging, murdering, and starving children is bad enough to lose my vote, but not for Democrats (or Republicans obviously). I'd point out there are lots of Democrats then and still that don't think Franken should have been tossed aside. I’m Not Convinced Franken Should QuitFranken urged to reverse his resignation
He shouldn't have been tossed aside.
Please tell me what he did that deserved him losing his job as a senator?
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On July 12 2019 11:17 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 10:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Since it's come up there are two fundamental issues through which I frame political discussions, accountability and sustainability. I would juxtapose that to the primary framing of nearly everything else here for at least the last couple years of "Yes this is bad, but they are worse". I think the latter doesn't get us anywhere but a downward spiral toward fascism/oligarchy. On July 12 2019 10:46 IgnE wrote:
if you think #Metoo is about saying Republicans are worse gropers than Democrats I think you are very mistaken #MeToo, like most issues summed up in a hashtag, means different things to different people. It's clearly about pointing at "them" being worse for some, and clearly not for others. EDIT: I was sort of hoping we'd end up exploring where our various worldviews leads us in regards to supporting a personally despicable person with ideal policy vs an otherwise great person with awful policy and the consequentialist view Mohdoo mentioned to justify the lesser evil argument. But mohdoo's engagement on the topic was limited and the conversation focused in on distinguishing Biden's inappropriate touching behavior from Trump's/allegations against him. So do you still support Bernie? Would you still support Bernie if one of his campaign workers past or present said he had made inappropriate sexual advances and groped her?
Anyone can claim anything, that doesn't make it true. If the majority of people think this is a good enough reason to stop supporting a candidate then there is literally a 0% chance that a non-establishment candidate will ever win.
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On July 12 2019 10:06 xDaunt wrote:
The problem that democrats have with sexual harassment is the same one that they have with racism and identity politics: an utter lack of justifiable principle. In creating retarded, unjustifiable standards to attack their conservative political opponents (“all victims must be believed” is a good example) in the name pure political expediency, the inevitable consequence is that democrats would use these standards against themselves. Stated another way, Democrats are practicing the politics of cannibalism.
Nice strawman, nobody ever said that all victims should be believed. I think democrats are perfectly ok with using against themselves the standards they set against Trump. Here it is: next time a democratic candidates boasts on tape groping women, visits the dressing room of pageants to “check”, talks about how the only reason he doesn’t fuck his daughter is their parental bond and that what they have in common is “sex”, cheat on his new, pregnant, thirty years younger wife with an effing pornstar, and is accused of rape by multiple women, we all agree to call him a fucking creep that deserves to go to hell.
See, we have different standards than you.
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On July 12 2019 13:49 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 11:17 IgnE wrote:On July 12 2019 10:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Since it's come up there are two fundamental issues through which I frame political discussions, accountability and sustainability. I would juxtapose that to the primary framing of nearly everything else here for at least the last couple years of "Yes this is bad, but they are worse". I think the latter doesn't get us anywhere but a downward spiral toward fascism/oligarchy. On July 12 2019 10:46 IgnE wrote:
if you think #Metoo is about saying Republicans are worse gropers than Democrats I think you are very mistaken #MeToo, like most issues summed up in a hashtag, means different things to different people. It's clearly about pointing at "them" being worse for some, and clearly not for others. EDIT: I was sort of hoping we'd end up exploring where our various worldviews leads us in regards to supporting a personally despicable person with ideal policy vs an otherwise great person with awful policy and the consequentialist view Mohdoo mentioned to justify the lesser evil argument. But mohdoo's engagement on the topic was limited and the conversation focused in on distinguishing Biden's inappropriate touching behavior from Trump's/allegations against him. So do you still support Bernie? Would you still support Bernie if one of his campaign workers past or present said he had made inappropriate sexual advances and groped her? Anyone can claim anything, that doesn't make it true. If the majority of people think this is a good enough reason to stop supporting a candidate then there is literally a 0% chance that a non-establishment candidate will ever win.
Generally credible harassment accusations come from several people testifying of a common, recognizable behaviour. Even in the metoo age, no one gets sank because of one person saying something, or there would be no politicians left.
If one of Bernie campaign workers said such thing, we would have to wait and see if it is corroborated by others.
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If Trump's campaign stacked with convicted criminals is the standard, the Democrats should have nothing to fear for the foreseable future. I don't think whataboutism against neither Democrat campaign workers nor sexual harassment accusations will fly for anyone but the hardcore Trunp base. For anyone else, it will only highlight their own hipocricy.
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On July 12 2019 19:37 Slydie wrote:
If Trump's campaign stacked with convicted criminals is the standard, the Democrats should have nothing to fear for the foreseable future. I don't think whataboutism against neither Democrat campaign workers nor sexual harassment accusations will fly for anyone but the hardcore Trunp base. For anyone else, it will only highlight their own hipocricy.
Apparently it flies for far left activists too; don’t underestimate the left ability to sabotage its own interests.
In a normal time, the Berniebros and the moderate democrats would be united in their fight against a far right administration, but if I learnt one thing hanging out here is that the former are the far right best buddies when it comes to fighting the democrats with the same whataboutist arguments. Personally, if I were a complete fascist with the most nefarious intents, I would fucking LOVE to have people like that on the far left.
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On July 12 2019 21:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 19:37 Slydie wrote:
If Trump's campaign stacked with convicted criminals is the standard, the Democrats should have nothing to fear for the foreseable future. I don't think whataboutism against neither Democrat campaign workers nor sexual harassment accusations will fly for anyone but the hardcore Trunp base. For anyone else, it will only highlight their own hipocricy. Apparently it flies for far left activists too; don’t underestimate the left ability to sabotage its own interests. In a normal time, the Berniebros and the moderate democrats would be united in their fight against a far right administration, but if I learnt one thing hanging out here is that the former are the far right best buddies when it comes to fighting the democrats with the same whataboutist arguments. Personally, if I were a complete fascist with the most nefarious intents, I would fucking LOVE to have people like that on the far left.
Are you saying people on the left should just shut up about democrats doing bad stuff because the far right likes it when they talk about it?
Isn't that setting a pretty low standard?
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On July 12 2019 21:39 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 21:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 12 2019 19:37 Slydie wrote:
If Trump's campaign stacked with convicted criminals is the standard, the Democrats should have nothing to fear for the foreseable future. I don't think whataboutism against neither Democrat campaign workers nor sexual harassment accusations will fly for anyone but the hardcore Trunp base. For anyone else, it will only highlight their own hipocricy. Apparently it flies for far left activists too; don’t underestimate the left ability to sabotage its own interests. In a normal time, the Berniebros and the moderate democrats would be united in their fight against a far right administration, but if I learnt one thing hanging out here is that the former are the far right best buddies when it comes to fighting the democrats with the same whataboutist arguments. Personally, if I were a complete fascist with the most nefarious intents, I would fucking LOVE to have people like that on the far left. Are you saying people on the left should just shut up about democrats doing bad stuff because the far right likes it when they talk about it? Isn't that setting a pretty low standard?
Pretty much exactly that from what I'm reading. It's the centrist curse of consistently letting the right set centrist's agenda and approachable subjects for them.
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On July 12 2019 21:47 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 13:33 KwarK wrote:On July 12 2019 11:55 IgnE wrote:
So who has a plan to avoid certain catastrophe? Thanos I think we would have a few posters would would happily team with him or a different super villain as long as his plan touched on a couple of their key beliefs.
Darn single issue voters.
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On July 12 2019 21:47 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2019 13:33 KwarK wrote:On July 12 2019 11:55 IgnE wrote:
So who has a plan to avoid certain catastrophe? Thanos I think we would have a few posters would would happily team with him or a different super villain as long as his plan touched on a couple of their key beliefs.
i didn’t vote for him because i thought he was some moral compass, i voted for him because he represents a change from the norm. for his ability to actually cut through the red tape and get things done. he doesn’t care about your feelings, he just says what he thinks is right. and if you just listen to him it’s clear that eliminating man made climate change is high on his priorities and he is already doing the work to make those changes happen.
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EPT
