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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1517

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-31 16:57:20
May 31 2019 16:54 GMT
#30321
Barr gives another interview in which he disseminates derogatory information about the targets of an ongoing investigations, and states his opinions about what the evidence will show. That's actually not something that any of Obama's people did in 2016 (except against hillary). Barr says The people who investigated trump "crossed a serious red line," they did not follow normal procedures, the text message evidence is "damning" and "appalling," he has people investigating Hillary and hopes to be able to bring those investigations "to fruition" soon, there are some facts he has learned that "dont hang together," what was done "is really antithetical to the democratic system that we have," people "crossed lines," and the "whole idea that the Trump was in cahoots with the Russians is bogus" (which is him drawing a conclusion that there was no valid predicate), and "From my perspective the idea of resisting a democratically elected president and basically throwing everything at him and you know, really changing the norms on the grounds that we have to stop this president, that is where the shredding of our norms and our institutions is occurring."

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/william-barr-interview-full-transcript-cbs-this-morning-jan-crawford-exclusive-2019-05-31/
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 31 2019 17:08 GMT
#30322
On June 01 2019 01:41 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2019 23:17 IgnE wrote:
On May 31 2019 16:35 Artisreal wrote:
On May 31 2019 12:43 IgnE wrote:
The carrying capacity of the planet is much higher than the number of people projected.

Which protection are you talking about?
Could you cite the source of your statement?


[image loading]

Any of the normal projections. That is from wikipedia. I thought this was common knowledge that world population is projected to level off at around 10 billion.

On May 31 2019 16:23 Jockmcplop wrote:
On May 31 2019 12:07 IgnE wrote:
Proposition: normal people acting within the bounds of normal behavior are not morally responsible for their behavior towards the environment

Corollary: only the very rich, the uniquely situated (large corporate polluters), those who deliberately flout norms to harm the environment, and similarly situated people can be morally culpable for damaging the environment


This ignores groups though.

One normal person, acting within the bounds of normal behaviour is not morally reponsible for their behaviour towards the environment, but a group of these normal people may need to get together and alter their behaviour once they realize that as a group they are behaving in a way that damages their environment... If they knowingly fail to do so is that a moral issue?

I think it depends on how willing you are to attribute moral qualities to large groups of people, but I would say it is.


Yes it does ignore groups. It is difficult to talk about group culpability in this way, primarily for epistemic reasons.

I'll put my question a bit clearer.
You are aware that we're currently already past the the carrying capacity for this year?
you are aware that we're currently less than 10 billion people on the planet?

You are capable of deducting that more people means more resources means overburdening the natural capacity even faster. Earth overshoot day.
I wonder why you post to the contrary?

For years already it is established that, by various metrics, we exceed the carrying capacity.
As you didn't indicate any form of behavioural change in the populace, we can assume that consumption patterns equal to the status quo are in place, which leads to the conclusion that your claim is void.


Oh really? What’s the carrying capacity of the planet then? Your last little paragraph just shows how you are disagreeing with me to be difficult. The fact is that we could probably put 20 million people on this planet with enough food, shelter, etc. in a sustainable way for thousands and thousands of years, the current egregious mismanagement of planetary resources not withstanding.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8000 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-31 17:26:47
May 31 2019 17:26 GMT
#30323
On June 01 2019 02:08 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2019 01:41 Artisreal wrote:
On May 31 2019 23:17 IgnE wrote:
On May 31 2019 16:35 Artisreal wrote:
On May 31 2019 12:43 IgnE wrote:
The carrying capacity of the planet is much higher than the number of people projected.

Which protection are you talking about?
Could you cite the source of your statement?


[image loading]

Any of the normal projections. That is from wikipedia. I thought this was common knowledge that world population is projected to level off at around 10 billion.

On May 31 2019 16:23 Jockmcplop wrote:
On May 31 2019 12:07 IgnE wrote:
Proposition: normal people acting within the bounds of normal behavior are not morally responsible for their behavior towards the environment

Corollary: only the very rich, the uniquely situated (large corporate polluters), those who deliberately flout norms to harm the environment, and similarly situated people can be morally culpable for damaging the environment


This ignores groups though.

One normal person, acting within the bounds of normal behaviour is not morally reponsible for their behaviour towards the environment, but a group of these normal people may need to get together and alter their behaviour once they realize that as a group they are behaving in a way that damages their environment... If they knowingly fail to do so is that a moral issue?

I think it depends on how willing you are to attribute moral qualities to large groups of people, but I would say it is.


Yes it does ignore groups. It is difficult to talk about group culpability in this way, primarily for epistemic reasons.

I'll put my question a bit clearer.
You are aware that we're currently already past the the carrying capacity for this year?
you are aware that we're currently less than 10 billion people on the planet?

You are capable of deducting that more people means more resources means overburdening the natural capacity even faster. Earth overshoot day.
I wonder why you post to the contrary?

For years already it is established that, by various metrics, we exceed the carrying capacity.
As you didn't indicate any form of behavioural change in the populace, we can assume that consumption patterns equal to the status quo are in place, which leads to the conclusion that your claim is void.


Oh really? What’s the carrying capacity of the planet then? Your last little paragraph just shows how you are disagreeing with me to be difficult. The fact is that we could probably put 20 million people on this planet with enough food, shelter, etc. in a sustainable way for thousands and thousands of years, the current egregious mismanagement of planetary resources not withstanding.


20 million? Shit. I vote that we keep Scandinavia and toss out the rest of the world then. ;P

With our current technology, we can support somewhere around 12b people on this planet, probably a lot less once global warming rises to the point where equator is unlivable. We're projected to reach 7.8 billion people by 2020, and a level off at around 10-12b. It's going to be tight. Thought, due to its very nature, despite how awful this is to type out, this is going to self regulate due to starvation.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17918 Posts
May 31 2019 17:44 GMT
#30324
On June 01 2019 02:26 Excludos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2019 02:08 IgnE wrote:
On June 01 2019 01:41 Artisreal wrote:
On May 31 2019 23:17 IgnE wrote:
On May 31 2019 16:35 Artisreal wrote:
On May 31 2019 12:43 IgnE wrote:
The carrying capacity of the planet is much higher than the number of people projected.

Which protection are you talking about?
Could you cite the source of your statement?


[image loading]

Any of the normal projections. That is from wikipedia. I thought this was common knowledge that world population is projected to level off at around 10 billion.

On May 31 2019 16:23 Jockmcplop wrote:
On May 31 2019 12:07 IgnE wrote:
Proposition: normal people acting within the bounds of normal behavior are not morally responsible for their behavior towards the environment

Corollary: only the very rich, the uniquely situated (large corporate polluters), those who deliberately flout norms to harm the environment, and similarly situated people can be morally culpable for damaging the environment


This ignores groups though.

One normal person, acting within the bounds of normal behaviour is not morally reponsible for their behaviour towards the environment, but a group of these normal people may need to get together and alter their behaviour once they realize that as a group they are behaving in a way that damages their environment... If they knowingly fail to do so is that a moral issue?

I think it depends on how willing you are to attribute moral qualities to large groups of people, but I would say it is.


Yes it does ignore groups. It is difficult to talk about group culpability in this way, primarily for epistemic reasons.

I'll put my question a bit clearer.
You are aware that we're currently already past the the carrying capacity for this year?
you are aware that we're currently less than 10 billion people on the planet?

You are capable of deducting that more people means more resources means overburdening the natural capacity even faster. Earth overshoot day.
I wonder why you post to the contrary?

For years already it is established that, by various metrics, we exceed the carrying capacity.
As you didn't indicate any form of behavioural change in the populace, we can assume that consumption patterns equal to the status quo are in place, which leads to the conclusion that your claim is void.


Oh really? What’s the carrying capacity of the planet then? Your last little paragraph just shows how you are disagreeing with me to be difficult. The fact is that we could probably put 20 million people on this planet with enough food, shelter, etc. in a sustainable way for thousands and thousands of years, the current egregious mismanagement of planetary resources not withstanding.


20 million? Shit. I vote that we keep Scandinavia and toss out the rest of the world then. ;P

With our current technology, we can support somewhere around 12b people on this planet, probably a lot less once global warming rises to the point where equator is unlivable. We're projected to reach 7.8 billion people by 2020, and a level off at around 10-12b. It's going to be tight. Thought, due to its very nature, despite how awful this is to type out, this is going to self regulate due to starvation.

And the nuclear holocaust brought on when India collapses and starts warring with Pakistan or China over Lebensraum.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 31 2019 17:49 GMT
#30325
I meant 20 billion.

Most of the new people will be in Africa. After global climate change disrupts the current international political climate, I would expect life expectancy in Africa to decrease (and/or not reach it’s projected value based on current trends). It’s possible that population actually peaks in the 21st century before declining.

In any case I don’t think a very convincing case can be made that having a child is irresponsible or immoral.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9234 Posts
May 31 2019 17:55 GMT
#30326
On June 01 2019 02:49 IgnE wrote:
I meant 20 billion.

Most of the new people will be in Africa. After global climate change disrupts the current international political climate, I would expect life expectancy in Africa to decrease (and/or not reach it’s projected value based on current trends). It’s possible that population actually peaks in the 21st century before declining.

In any case I don’t think a very convincing case can be made that having a child is irresponsible or immoral.

ehm...
You are being needlessly vague and imprecise in your inital post about the subject.
which is one of your specialities.

That you were implying a sustainable lifestyle by these people was and is neither clear through the posts you were ostensibly responding to, nor through your 2 line post in itself.
Maybe work on that and you're less "misunderstood"
passive quaranstream fan
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
May 31 2019 18:21 GMT
#30327
I just can't anymore with these people. This was funny briefly, but more than anything it just made me mad. These people get shoveled shit all day and they eat it up. And you know they have friends and family who tell them they're crazy. All these people do. But they are too dense to realize what's going on. A few of them will have moments like this that wake them up, but most won't.

"I was surprised to hear there was anything negative in the Mueller report at all about President Trump. I hadn’t heard that before. I’ve mainly listened to conservative news and I hadn’t heard anything negative about that report and President Trump has been exonerated."

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/05/quote-of-the-day-the-mueller-report-says-bad-things-about-trump-fox-news-never-mentioned-that/
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 31 2019 18:29 GMT
#30328
On June 01 2019 01:48 xDaunt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

Barr sat down with CBS for a lengthy interview regarding the Mueller report, Mueller's statement, and further investigations into the matter that Barr is leading. The whole thing is a good read and gives insight on how Barr thinks and operates. In particular, I find that he's a master of subtext. Here are some of the portions that I found interesting:

JAN CRAWFORD: Mr. Attorney General, thank you very much for sitting down with us. So, obviously we saw the special counsel yesterday make that statement, he analyzed 11 instances where there were possible obstruction and then said that he really couldn't make a decision- conclusion on whether or not the president had in fact committed obstruction because of the existing OLC opinion in the legal counsel's office. Do you agree with that interpretation that that legal opinion prevented him from making a conclusion?

WILLIAM BARR: I am not sure he said it prevented him. I think what he said was he took that into account plus a number of other prudential judgments about fairness and other things and decided that the best course was not for him to reach a decision. I personally felt he could've reached a decision but--

JAN CRAWFORD: Was there anything that would've stopped him in the regulations or in those...that opinion itself, he could've -- in your view he could've reached a conclusion?

WILLIAM BARR: Right, he could've reached a conclusion. The opinion says you cannot indict a president while he is in office but he could've reached a decision as to whether it was criminal activity but he had his reasons for not doing it, which he explained and I am not going to, you know, argue about those reasons but when he didn't make a decision, the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I felt it was necessary for us as the heads of the Department to reach that decision. That is what the Department of Justice does, that is why we have the compulsory powers like a grand jury to force people to give us evidence so that we can determine whether a crime has committed and in order to legitimate the process we felt we had to reach a decision.


So here's Barr saying exactly what I said about the OLC guidelines and Mueller's reasoning for not coming to a charging decision. Frankly, I think that Barr is going out of his way to be charitable to Mueller and the statements that Mueller made at the press conference yesterday by focusing instead upon the argument that Mueller made in his report.

JAN CRAWFORD: Now you have testified that when you met with Mueller at the Justice Department, you had that meeting, that you were surprised that he told you then that he was not going to reach a conclusion on obstruction.

WILLIAM BARR: Yes, Rod and I were both surprised by that.

JAN CRAWFORD: Did you ask him, look, we need you to make a conclusion on this? You should make a conclusion.

WILLIAM BARR: I wouldn't say I really pressed him on it. I was interested in his thinking on it and he explained his position, said he was still thinking it through and- and- but I didn't really press him nor did Rod.

JAN CRAWFORD: So, but you left that meeting thinking that he wasn't going to have a conclusion?

WILLIAM BARR: That's right.


This is quite interesting. First, Barr is letting us know that these conversations that he had with Mueller about the OLC guidelines had other witnesses, including Rosenstein. This means that this is not a "he said, he said" situation involving just Barr and Mueller as the media as tried to portray it (and again, I'm pretty sure that this conversation was recorded). Second, Barr's statement that Mueller was "still thinking it through" strongly suggests that the introduction to Volume 2 may have been thrown in at the last minute, possibly in response to Barr's questioning or even his overall involvement on the matter (it's either that or Mueller was lying to Barr). This smacks of Mueller acting politically. If we accept Barr's testimony (and we have no reason not to) that Mueller told him at this meeting that the OLC guidelines were not the reason for his decision not to charge Trump and that deficiencies in the evidence itself was the reason, and if we look at how quickly that this investigation wrapped up once Barr became AG (thereby creating the inference that Barr reined in Mueller and effectively shut down the investigation upon figuring out that Mueller still had nothing), then what Barr is saying is that Mueller scrambled to find a way to inflict maximum damage upon Trump notwithstanding his inability to come to a charging decision.

JAN CRAWFORD: The four page summary that you wrote, did you ask in that March 5th meeting for the special counsel to kind of redact all the grand jury material?

WILLIAM BARR: Yes, not redact it but highlight it so we could redact it, we would, so, you know, the report was over 400 pages, I knew that it was voluminous and coming our way in a few weeks. My intent was to get out as much as I could as quickly as I could. To do that I would have to, as a matter of law, make sure that grand jury material was redacted because regardless of the political posturing that's going on it's not lawful for me to just make that public.

JAN CRAWFORD: Not even to Congress?

WILLIAM BARR: Not even--

JAN CRAWFORD: So you could even give Congress, which of course is demanding that and threatening to hold you in contempt because you're not giving them the full report

WILLIAM BARR: That's right, and so--

JAN CRAWFORD: But by law you can't?

WILLIAM BARR: Right, and so because we were not involved in the investigation we would have no way looking at the report of determining what was grand jury material and what wasn't, so we had for a period of weeks been asking the special counsel's office to highlight the stuff so we could quickly process it for release and I guess--

JAN CRAWFORD: For a period of weeks you had asked for this material?

WILLIAM BARR: Yeah even before the March 5 meeting we had asked or raised the subject--

JAN CRAWFORD: And what was the response?

WILLIAM BARR: And then at the March 5 meeting I made it explicit and then after the March 5th meeting we asked..

JAN CRAWFORD: And what was the response?

WILLIAM BARR: We thought it was being-- we thought it was being done and I do believe they were putting in more footnotes in that would be necessary ultimately in identifying the material but whether the wires were crossed or whatever it didn't come in a form that identified the 6E material.

JAN CRAWFORD: And that was a surprise to you when you got the report?

WILLIAM BARR: Yes.

JAN CRAWFORD: It was.

WILLIAM BARR: And it immediately meant that you know it was going to be a period of weeks before we could get the report out if I had my druthers I would have liked to get the report out as quickly as possible.

JAN CRAWFORD: So instead, you turned this four page summary?

WILLIAM BARR: Right, because I didn't think the body politic would allow us to go on radio silence for four weeks. I mean, people were camped outside my house and the department and every- there was all kinds of wild speculation going on. Former senior intelligence officials who were purporting to have it- or intimating that they had inside information were suggesting that the president and his family were going to be indicted and so forth--


Here Barr talks about the origins of his four page summary letter. This is really revealing. Barr never intended to issue such a letter. What he says that he wanted to do was to release the entire report as quickly as possible. He realized ahead of time that the report would contain grand jury material that could not be released as a matter of law, so he directed Mueller's team to mark that material in the report so that it could be quickly and easily redacted. Mueller and his team refused to do this. In retrospect, it's quite obvious now that Mueller's team wanted the public's first impression of the report to be the summaries that they had prepared rather than the report itself. Prosecutors have no business playing politics like this. These people are dirty.

JAN CRAWFORD: You didn't say in that four-page memo that the report would not exonerate the president on obstruction. That line--

WILLIAM BARR: I said that, yes. In the- in the- in my four-page memo, I said that Mueller did not reach a decision. He gave both sides and that- and then I quoted that sentence which is, while we didn't find a crime, we didn't exonerate the president. That was in the four-page letter.

JAN CRAWFORD: The- did not- we would so clearly state the preface to that.

WILLIAM BARR: Yeah.


Look how screwed up the interviewer is. He's been so hardwired to believe that Barr misrepresented Mueller's report with his letter that he doesn't even know the basics of what's in Barr's letter. I'm sure that Barr wanted to slap this fucking idiot.

JAN CRAWFORD: He wrote the letter taking issue, saying there caused- you had caused confusion. Did that catch you off guard?

WILLIAM BARR: Yeah, sure. I was surprised he just didn't pick up the phone and call me given our 30 year relationship, but--

JAN CRAWFORD: Why didn't he?

WILLIAM BARR: I don't, I don't know, but, as I said it in the hearing, I thought it was- the letter was a little snitty and staff-driven--

JAN CRAWFORD: Staff-driven?

WILLIAM BARR: Yeah. I personally felt, but we had a good conversation--


I'm quite annoyed by how frequently this interviewing needlessly interrupts Barr and steps on important points that he's making. This one could be a doozy. What Barr seems to be saying here is that Mueller may not have been driving the bus when it came to writing and issuing the report. It was previously reported that Weissman was the one who largely picked Mueller's team, and the report itself certainly smacks of Weissman's style. Perhaps this is why Mueller was so uncomfortable giving his statement the other day. It wasn't really his statement so much as it was his "staff's." I wonder how much of this investigation was "staff-driven" as opposed to Mueller-driven.

JAN CRAWFORD: Do you think enough was done in 2016?

WILLIAM BARR: Enough was done in 2016? Probably not. You know, I think Bob Mueller did some impressive work in his investigation, you know, identifying some of the Russian hackers and their influence campaign and you sort of wonder if that kind of work had been done starting in 2016, things could have been a lot different.

JAN CRAWFORD: Right because it's just hard to understand why it wasn't taken more seriously.

WILLIAM BARR: Right.

JAN CRAWFORD: Why do you think it was not?

WILLIAM BARR: I have no idea. That's one of the things I'm interested in looking at you know--

JAN CRAWFORD: --As part of the review?

WILLIAM BARR: Yes. In other words, you know, there are statements being made that people were warned back in April--

JAN CRAWFORD: --of 2016--

WILLIAM BARR: Right and I don't have any reason to doubt that, but I'm wondering what exactly was the response to it if they were alarmed. Surely the response should have been more than just, you know, dangling a confidential informant in front of a peripheral player in the Trump Campaign.


Barr's putting on a master class in trolling right here. He's saying that he doesn't buy the story that this investigation started with legit concerns about the Russians. He damned well knows what happened.

JAN CRAWFORD: I want to talk to you about the investigation. Um, because your, that's suggesting that was obviously inadequate, but when you talk to Director Wray about appointing this high level group and efforts to ensure that this doesn't happen again in 2020, has he expressed any concern to you that the kind of review that you are now going to undertake, or this investigation of the investigation, that that could hamper these efforts in 2020?

WILLIAM BARR: We've discussed how important it is that that not be allowed to happen and we are both very cognizant of that and--

JAN CRAWFORD: ---You have discussed that with him?

WILLIAM BARR: Oh yes, and I think he is being very supportive and we're working together on, you know, trying to reconstruct what happened. People have to understand, you know, one of the things here is that these efforts in 2016, these counter-intelligence activities that were directed at the Trump Campaign, were not done in the normal course and not through the normal procedures as a far as I can tell. And a lot of the people who were involved are no longer there.


JAN CRAWFORD: So it's just as dangerous- So when we talk about foreign interference versus say a government abuse of power, which is more troubling?

WILLIAM BARR: Well they're both, they're both troubling.

JAN CRAWFORD: Equally?

WILLIAM BARR: In my mind, they are, sure. I mean, republics have fallen because of Praetorian Guard mentality where government officials get very arrogant, they identify the national interest with their own political preferences and they feel that anyone who has a different opinion, you know, is somehow an enemy of the state. And you know, there is that tendency that they know better and that, you know, they're there to protect as guardians of the people. That can easily translate into essentially supervening the will of the majority and getting your own way as a government official.

JAN CRAWFORD: And you are concerned that that may have happened in 2016?

WILLIAM BARR: Well, I just think it has to be carefully look at because the use of foreign intelligence capabilities and counterintelligence capabilities against an American political campaign to me is unprecedented and it's a serious red line that's been crossed.


Yep. He knows.

JAN CRAWFORD: The Inspector General is looking at only, it is my understanding, a small part of this? Is that correct? the FISA warrant?

WILLIAM BARR: Yeah, I wouldn't say small but he's looking at a discrete area that is- that is you know, important, which is the use of electronic surveillance that was targeted at Carter Page.

JAN CRAWFORD: And could he have… could you have just said I want to expand this investigation? Why did you feel it was necessary to turn to John Durham?

WILLIAM BARR: Well the inspector general at the department, Mike Horowitz, who you know is a superb government official he has limited powers. He doesn't have the power to compel testimony, he doesn't have the power really to investigate beyond the current cast of characters at the Department of Justice. His ability to get information from former officials or from other agencies outside the department is very limited

JAN CRAWFORD: So he wouldn't have been able to go and try to speak with some of the former officials who are making these decisions, necessarily?

WILLIAM BARR: Right

JAN CRAWFORD: If they are not in the department anymore.

WILLIAM BARR: Right


Let me translate: "I brought in Durham because I need to criminally investigate people, and potentially indict some of them."

JAN CRAWFORD: Um, what's the status of Huber's investigation in Utah? I think the former Attorney General Sessions had asked him to look at this.

WILLIAM BARR: Right, so Huber had originally been asked to take a look at the FISA applications and the electronic surveillance but then he stood back and put that on hold while the Office of Inspector General was conducting its review, which would've been normal for the department. And he was essentially on standby in case Mr. Horowitz referred a matter to him to be handled criminally. So he has not been active on this front in recent months and so Durham is taking over that role. The other issues he's been working on relate to Hillary Clinton. Those are winding down and hopefully we'll be in a position to bring those to fruition.

JAN CRAWFORD: So he won't be involved in this really at all then?

WILLIAM BARR: No.

JAN CRAWFORD: This is his role, it's done?

WILLIAM BARR: Right.


I don't know what to make of this one. Here, Barr seems to be saying that Huber has been doing something all of this time and that it's about to be wrapped up. On the other hand, Joe DiGenova, who represents one of the main Clinton Foundation whistleblowers, has been adamant that Huber has done fuck-all since Sessions appointed him to look at this stuff. If Huber had been doing something, I would think that DiGenova's client would have been brought before a grand jury already, which has not happened. We'll see. But I will say that this is one of the big tests as to whether Barr is actually going to do his job or whether he's going to sweep all of this under the rug.

JAN CRAWFORD: But you have concerns about how they conducted the investigation?

WILLIAM BARR: Yes but you know, when you're dealing with official government contact, intent is frequently a murky issue. I'm not suggesting that people did what they did necessarily because of conscious, nefarious motives. Sometimes people can convince themselves that what they're doing is in the higher interest, the better good. They don't realize that what they're doing is really antithetical to the democratic system that we have. They start viewing themselves as the guardians of the people that are more informed and insensitive than everybody else. They can- in their own mind, they can have those kinds of motives. And sometimes they can look at evidence and facts through a biased prism that they themselves don't realize.

WILLIAM BARR: That something objectively as applied as a neutral principle across the board really you know, shouldn't be the standard used in the case but because they have a particular bias they don't see that. So that's why procedures and standards are important and review afterward is an important way of making sure that government power is being conscientiously and properly applied. It doesn't necessarily mean that there are people- you know, that people have crossed lines have done so with corrupt intent or anything like that.

JAN CRAWFORD: But it seems like you have a concern that there may have been a bias by top officials in the FBI as they looked at whether to launch and conduct this investigation?

WILLIAM BARR: Well it's hard to read some of the texts with and not feel that there was gross bias at work and they're appalling. And if the shoe were on the other--

JAN CRAWFORD: Appalling.

WILLIAM BARR: Those were appalling. And on their face they were very damning and I think if the shoe was on the other foot we could be hearing a lot about it. If those kinds of discussions were held you know when Obama first ran for office, people talking about Obama in those tones and suggesting that "Oh that he might be a Manchurian candidate for Islam or something like that." You know some wild accusations like that and you had that kind of discussion back and forth, you don't think we would be hearing a lot more about it?


This is pretty classic from Barr. He says that "intent is frequently murky issue" and that he doesn't want to infer why people did what they did, but then he goes right to the Strzok/Page texts and says that they're "appalling," "damning," and would be a huge deal if they had been said about Obama and Obama's supporters.

JAN CRAWFORD: You- I guess when you said that there were things done that were not the typical run of business, ad hoc, small group, it's not how these counterintelligence operations normally work. I think that maybe Comey and others might say well this was such an extraordinary thing we had to keep it so closely held. So we had to do it differently what's your response to that? Is that legit?

WILLIAM BARR: Well it might be legit under certain circumstances but a lot of that has to do with how good the evidence was at that point. And you know Mueller has spent two and half years and the fact is there is no evidence of a conspiracy. So it was bogus, this whole idea that the Trump was in cahoots with the Russians is bogus


And here Barr hones in on the real issue. What business did Mueller or the FBI have investigating an issue that was always bogus?

JAN CRAWFORD: So did you ask the president for authority to declassify?

WILLIAM BARR: Yes.

JAN CRAWFORD: You asked the president?

WILLIAM BARR: Yes and also you know, the direction of the intelligence agencies to support our efforts.

JAN CRAWFORD: So did you discuss this with the DNI and head of the CIA?

WILLIAM BARR: Yes.

JAN CRAWFORD: And what's their response?

WILLIAM BARR: That they're going to be supportive.


I got a good laugh reading this. Barr likes to go out of his way to help everyone involved save face (even Mueller), but what he's really saying here is "I got declassification authority from the president because those fuckers at the agencies weren't cooperating with me. Now they have no choice."

JAN CRAWFORD: And so you won't will you declassify things without reviewing it with them it seems like you have the authority to do that?

WILLIAM BARR: Well in an exceptional circumstance I have that authority but obviously I intend to consult with them. I'm amused by these people who make a living by disclosing classified information, including the names of intelligence operatives, wringing their hands about whether I'm going to be responsible in protecting intelligence sources and methods. I've been in the business as I've said for over 50 years long before they were born and I know how to handle classified information and I believe strongly in protecting intelligence sources and methods. But at the same time if there is information that can be shared with the American people without jeopardizing intelligence sources and methods that decision should be made and because I will be involved in finding out what the story was I think I'm in the best decision to make that decision


Here's Barr putting the DNI, Brennan, and the other people objecting to his declassification authority in their place. It should also be noted that Barr is saying that intends to actually publish declassified information to the American people to the extent that he can. We'll see what he does.

JAN CRAWFORD: You are only the second Attorney General in history who's served twice. I think the first one was back in 1850.

WILLIAM BARR: Right.

JAN CRAWFORD: But you are working for a man who is- I mean you are an establishment figure in a way. You've had a long career in Washington but you are working for a man who is not establishment. And some of his tweets about officials and the rule of law, how do you react when you see those? Are you on Twitter? Do you read his tweets?

WILLIAM BARR: No, I am not on Twitter and every once in a while a tweet is brought to my attention but my experience with the president is, we have- we have a good working, professional working relationship. We, you know, we talk to each other and if he has something to say to me I figure he'll tell me directly. I don't look to tweets for, you know, I don't look at them as directives or as official communications with the department.

JAN CRAWFORD: But when you came into this job, you were kind of, it's like the US Attorney in Connecticut, I mean, you had a good reputation on the right and on the left. You were a man with a good reputation. You are not someone who is, you know, accused of protecting the president, enabling the president, lying to Congress. Did you expect that coming in? And what is your response to it? How do you? What's your response to that?

WILLIAM BARR: Well in a way I did expect it.

JAN CRAWFORD: You did?

WILLIAM BARR: Yeah, because I realize we live in a crazy hyper-partisan period of time and I knew that it would only be a matter of time if I was behaving responsibly and calling them as I see them, that I would be attacked because nowadays people don't care about the merits and the substance. They only care about who it helps, who benefits, whether my side benefits or the other side benefits, everything is gauged by politics. And as I say, that's antithetical to the way the department runs and any attorney general in this period is going to end up losing a lot of political capital and I realize that and that is one of the reasons that I ultimately was persuaded that I should take it on because I think at my stage in life it really doesn't make any difference.


Barr is saying that he gives no fucks politically.

JAN CRAWFORD: So you don't regret taking the job?

WILLIAM BARR: No.

JAN CRAWFORD: Not even today?

WILLIAM BARR: I'd rather, in many ways, I'd rather be back to my old life but I think that I love the Department of Justice, I love the FBI, I think it's important that we not, in this period of intense partisan feeling, destroy our institutions. I think one of the ironies today is that people are saying that it's President Trump that's shredding our institutions. I really see no evidence of that, it is hard, and I really haven't seen bill of particulars as to how that's being done. From my perspective the idea of resisting a democratically elected president and basically throwing everything at him and you know, really changing the norms on the grounds that we have to stop this president, that is where the shredding of our norms and our institutions is occurring.

JAN CRAWFORD: And you think that happened even with the investigation into the campaign, potentially?

WILLIAM BARR: I am concerned about that.


Like I said, Barr knows what's up, and he intends to do something about it.


My first takeaway was that he certainly can frame the current moment and his role in it well.
Yeah, because I realize we live in a crazy hyper-partisan period of time and I knew that it would only be a matter of time if I was behaving responsibly and calling them as I see them, that I would be attacked because nowadays people don't care about the merits and the substance. They only care about who it helps, who benefits, whether my side benefits or the other side benefits, everything is gauged by politics. And as I say, that's antithetical to the way the department runs and any attorney general in this period is going to end up losing a lot of political capital and I realize that and that is one of the reasons that I ultimately was persuaded that I should take it on because I think at my stage in life it really doesn't make any difference.

He recognizes the hyper-partisan time and the focus on who benefits and an aversion to responsibility. If it benefits Trump, the reason to decry it is just any justification your mind happens on. Lately, that's a lot of "but Mueller said" and "but Trump [defect invalidates everything]." He knows that anybody standing up for calm in this moment will be relentlessly attacked and will give up all their political capital and future career. I can dig the fatalism. Only a man at the end of his career can be sufficiently motivated to make war against the massive tide.

WILLIAM BARR: Right and I don't have any reason to doubt that, but I'm wondering what exactly was the response to it if they were alarmed. Surely the response should have been more than just, you know, dangling a confidential informant in front of a peripheral player in the Trump Campaign.

What a guy. The media really put a focus on how unfair it was to call multiple confidential informants, and wiretaps, national security letters spying. They really also wanted Trump to look so guilty so early to justify the initiation of counterintelligence investigations. What wasn't explored was contrasting how alarmed everyone said they were, and the weird first steps if this scared the department.

What a beast on the Praetorian guard comments. Yes, we have Democratic ways of removing somebody whose foreign policy towards Russia you don't like. We have Democratic ways of saying that much blatant lying is too much. They're called elections and they happen every four years for the President. The "resisting a democratically elected president and basically throwing everything at him and you know, really changing the norms on the grounds that we have to stop this president, that is where the shredding of our norms and our institutions is occurring" is just showing you don't trust representative government and yearn for technocracy.
I mean, republics have fallen because of Praetorian Guard mentality where government officials get very arrogant, they identify the national interest with their own political preferences and they feel that anyone who has a different opinion, you know, is somehow an enemy of the state. And you know, there is that tendency that they know better and that, you know, they're there to protect as guardians of the people. That can easily translate into essentially supervening the will of the majority and getting your own way as a government official.

Well, I just think it has to be carefully look at because the use of foreign intelligence capabilities and counterintelligence capabilities against an American political campaign to me is unprecedented and it's a serious red line that's been crossed.

Trump's got a winner here. Barr can articulate the issues. He can pull apart bad perspective. The hysterical portion of right and left endorses paranoia, praises government surveillance, and criminalizes policy differences and attitudes. That doesn't end well for republics. Anyone not on board with those would be hopping mad at what's currently known about the start and conduct of the counterintelligence investigation.

Mueller redactions, summary, lack of conclusion were pretty well known already. Barr requesting the authority to declassify is news.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-31 19:38:37
May 31 2019 19:38 GMT
#30329
On June 01 2019 02:55 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2019 02:49 IgnE wrote:
I meant 20 billion.

Most of the new people will be in Africa. After global climate change disrupts the current international political climate, I would expect life expectancy in Africa to decrease (and/or not reach it’s projected value based on current trends). It’s possible that population actually peaks in the 21st century before declining.

In any case I don’t think a very convincing case can be made that having a child is irresponsible or immoral.

ehm...
You are being needlessly vague and imprecise in your inital post about the subject.
which is one of your specialities.

That you were implying a sustainable lifestyle by these people was and is neither clear through the posts you were ostensibly responding to, nor through your 2 line post in itself.
Maybe work on that and you're less "misunderstood"


And why is being “vague” about the “carrying capacity” somehow a problem, but alarmist conclusions that we are already over the carrying capacity is not? Because “carrying capacity” can and should imply the rampant burning of fossil fuels, strip mining, and whatever else as universally necessary conditions for sustaining global population? The problem is your framing of what “carrying capacity” means not mine. If you frame it that way you get led to some insane conclusions about how we should manage birthrates rather than about how we should manage natural resources.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
May 31 2019 20:28 GMT
#30330
Y'all on the right sure like eating the propaganda. Congress is also democratically elected yet your boy is shredding every norm to stop them from doing their oversight duties.

Framing Barr controlling the narrative for a month, leading to many conservative people not even knowing what the report says (as Ayaz2810 post references), into it all being a ploy from Mueller to stall the release of a text he (and his office) wrote himself is some next level delusion.

It's the same backwards thinking that makes you think a FBI tried to stop Trump in a secret grand plan where they said nothing about Trump but actually spoke about Hillary, damaging her, and Trump got elected fine, and is still fine being president. Like what, the deep states grand plan was to annoy him for two years?

It's like the claims of huge voter fraud against Trump while he won.

Showering Barr with grandeur because he parrots the same stuff Hannity does. Like I get why you are enthusiastic, Trump is dimwitted and lazy and now someone shrewd and zealous is going all-in for him in a time where most competent people have long since jumped ship. But let's not pretend he is not part of partisanship. How can he complain about supposed bias while he is spreading all sorts of opinions on the people he's investigating.

The election interference is not bogus. Yet the president has denied it for years and McConnell is still blocking bi-partisan resolutions to combat future interference.
Neosteel Enthusiast
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
May 31 2019 20:40 GMT
#30331
The fact that Barr can say with a straight face that Trump is not shredding institutions despite Trumps almost daily tirades against them is the height of partisanship. Just like when Kavanaughs first words on being sworn in were a partisan lie ("Trump has shown great respect for the judiciary " or something like that).

Let's not forget that Barr was a prominent public supporter of pardoning the criminals behind Iran Contra. Putting politics over what is right is what he does. Trump def got the fixer he always wanted.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 31 2019 21:31 GMT
#30332
I know a lot about your feelings on what’s happening. It feels like propaganda, Trump feels like he’s done worse, this felt like narrative, this other topic over here feels more important. I think if you could meet Barr’s arguments head-on, you both would. The “but Trump” commentary is an old dodge. Never mind the specific allegations, Trumps done worse, checkmate.

When you have no answer, it’s all propaganda and Hannity and whatever excuse comes next week for ignoring the points. So when you’re done with whataboutism, personal attacks, and never addressing any points in any depth, come back to the table. We can’t fruitlessly exchange lists of what’s wrong with Democracy when you can’t even answer charges without deflection.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
May 31 2019 22:01 GMT
#30333
Hey Danglars, what would it take for you to say that Trump is in the wrong? If NYT is reporting he murdered some one on 5th avenue and have proof, but Fox, and Hannity report he didn't, at what point do you realize something is wrong?
Life?
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
May 31 2019 22:02 GMT
#30334
--- Nuked ---
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 31 2019 22:48 GMT
#30335
On June 01 2019 07:01 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hey Danglars, what would it take for you to say that Trump is in the wrong? If NYT is reporting he murdered some one on 5th avenue and have proof, but Fox, and Hannity report he didn't, at what point do you realize something is wrong?

I’d say link that NYT story to me! Then other reporters. Sounds juicy. When stories conflict, see what evidence there is for both sides. Then read responses to see if I missed anything, focusing on people that don’t riff for the fifth time on all the reasons they don’t like Trump.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
May 31 2019 23:12 GMT
#30336
--- Nuked ---
ShambhalaWar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States930 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-01 00:38:13
May 31 2019 23:30 GMT
#30337
On May 31 2019 11:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Behold the « balls » of the Great Leader who dares bullying a weaker country with tariffs that will hurt everybody over the actions of its citizens trying to seek a better life in the US...

« Sad! », as a very stable genius would have said.


I completely agree.

XD
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 01 2019 00:10 GMT
#30338
On June 01 2019 08:12 JimmiC wrote:
This transcript seems like a pretty clear attempt by Trumps lawyer to obstruct justice. Now I'm sure this is just Trump getting duped again by someone he hired and close to him. I'm not sure that they should impeach him, but they sure as hell should stop him from hiring people.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/31/politics/michael-flynn-john-dowd-voicemail/index.html

There's nothing inappropriate about Dowd's message at all. In fact, he said all of the things that I would expect an attorney to say in that situation.
ShambhalaWar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States930 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-06-01 00:37:57
June 01 2019 00:37 GMT
#30339
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
June 01 2019 00:42 GMT
#30340
--- Nuked ---
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