|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you.
Yes, "do it right." Set no precedent that last minute requests will be honored at the highest court in the land. Delay two decades to three decades or even four.
I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I see your questions of religion do not extend to Pastafarianism, and I suggest you plea before the mighty Flying Spaghetti Monster to why you are willing to deny his disciples their religious rights. Or do you only recognize official state-sanctioned religions?
|
On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. Yes, "do it right." Set no precedent that last minute requests will be honored at the highest court in the land. Delay two decades to three decades or even four. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I see your questions of religion do not extend to Pastafarianism, and I suggest you plea before the mighty Flying Spaghetti Monster to why you are willing to deny his disciples their religious rights. Or do you only recognize official state-sanctioned religions?
I don't recognize any religion as being legitimate, personally, but that's neither here not there because I'm not a sociopath. However, if you're going to have it set up, by law, where only retained clergypeople are allowed, then you need to have one of every legal faith/denomination that is recognized, by law.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
|
United States41996 Posts
On April 03 2019 09:46 Sermokala wrote:
I think you guys are selling this "religious discrimination" really short. There are the same issues that are dealt with in the army with having different religious leanings being served in their chaplain corps. Its perfectly acceptable to just have the one religious representative, that being said having connections to facilitate a different religion should be an expected practice during an execution.
The issue happens already in various hospitals when you don't have a Catholic priest on call for Catholic patients and vice versa. I had an uncle that struggled with having a Catholic priest look over him in his final days as there was no protestant for him.
Yes, but presumably the hospital didn’t bar Protestants from attending if he had found one who was willing to come. Had there been some minor impediment that needed to be overcome like disinfecting his hands or whatever they could presumably have overcome that too. Had they instead forced him to receive Catholic last rites because the technology to disinfect a minister just wasn’t available in the hospital you’d have found that pretty spurious.
Assuming he’s found an imam who is willing to show up and do the job there really isn’t any good reason for them not to let him.
|
United States41996 Posts
On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. Yes, "do it right." Set no precedent that last minute requests will be honored at the highest court in the land. Delay two decades to three decades or even four. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I see your questions of religion do not extend to Pastafarianism, and I suggest you plea before the mighty Flying Spaghetti Monster to why you are willing to deny his disciples their religious rights. Or do you only recognize official state-sanctioned religions?
If he found a Pastafarian willing to do it I’d expect them to pat him down and let him in to administer the last seasoning or whatever. The prison’s reason for denying equal accsss to religious counseling is spurious.
On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:
because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain
On April 03 2019 06:59 KwarK wrote:
You’re right that it’s not feasible to have a staff member of every single religion on staff. Fortunately I didn’t propose that. An easy fix would be to allow the condemned to have their own counselor brought in.
|
On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted.
I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters."
You know that's not a good look, right?
|
We demand humane treatment from our executioners in the US of A.
|
On April 03 2019 10:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 09:46 Sermokala wrote:
I think you guys are selling this "religious discrimination" really short. There are the same issues that are dealt with in the army with having different religious leanings being served in their chaplain corps. Its perfectly acceptable to just have the one religious representative, that being said having connections to facilitate a different religion should be an expected practice during an execution.
The issue happens already in various hospitals when you don't have a Catholic priest on call for Catholic patients and vice versa. I had an uncle that struggled with having a Catholic priest look over him in his final days as there was no protestant for him. Yes, but presumably the hospital didn’t bar Protestants from attending if he had found one who was willing to come. Had there been some minor impediment that needed to be overcome like disinfecting his hands or whatever they could presumably have overcome that too. Had they instead forced him to receive Catholic last rites because the technology to disinfect a minister just wasn’t available in the hospital you’d have found that pretty spurious. Assuming he’s found an imam who is willing to show up and do the job there really isn’t any good reason for them not to let him.
Security concerns are a good reason for them not to let him. The SC didn't provide enough guidance on this issue but it wouldn't be reasonable for them to just have a single Islamic spiritual representative and after that, you would get into a series of issues on which sects the prison is expected to employ.
In any case, it is reasonable to expect someone to have their affairs in order for this well in advance of a week before their deaths when they finally decide who they want there.
|
On April 03 2019 10:11 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. Yes, "do it right." Set no precedent that last minute requests will be honored at the highest court in the land. Delay two decades to three decades or even four. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I see your questions of religion do not extend to Pastafarianism, and I suggest you plea before the mighty Flying Spaghetti Monster to why you are willing to deny his disciples their religious rights. Or do you only recognize official state-sanctioned religions? I don't recognize any religion as being legitimate, personally, but that's neither here not there because I'm not a sociopath. However, if you're going to have it set up, by law, where only retained clergypeople are allowed, then you need to have one of every legal faith/denomination that is recognized, by law. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Presuming we had some areas of Minnesota with a predominantly Muslim population on death row, it’s legitimate to pay an imam and refuse Christian requests submitted close to the actual date of execution.
You haven’t recognized any rules setting aside how to recognize religions you favor and those you don’t. I see I brought up pastafarians with good use. You will refer to laws you don’t define and periods of request you don’t discuss. Two weeks is plain religious bigotry, Peter says a month at minimum, and Paul says the day before and calls both priors the worst of bigots.
|
United States41996 Posts
On April 03 2019 13:21 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 10:14 KwarK wrote:On April 03 2019 09:46 Sermokala wrote:
I think you guys are selling this "religious discrimination" really short. There are the same issues that are dealt with in the army with having different religious leanings being served in their chaplain corps. Its perfectly acceptable to just have the one religious representative, that being said having connections to facilitate a different religion should be an expected practice during an execution.
The issue happens already in various hospitals when you don't have a Catholic priest on call for Catholic patients and vice versa. I had an uncle that struggled with having a Catholic priest look over him in his final days as there was no protestant for him. Yes, but presumably the hospital didn’t bar Protestants from attending if he had found one who was willing to come. Had there been some minor impediment that needed to be overcome like disinfecting his hands or whatever they could presumably have overcome that too. Had they instead forced him to receive Catholic last rites because the technology to disinfect a minister just wasn’t available in the hospital you’d have found that pretty spurious. Assuming he’s found an imam who is willing to show up and do the job there really isn’t any good reason for them not to let him. Security concerns are a good reason for them not to let him. The SC didn't provide enough guidance on this issue but it wouldn't be reasonable for them to just have a single Islamic spiritual representative and after that, you would get into a series of issues on which sects the prison is expected to employ. In any case, it is reasonable to expect someone to have their affairs in order for this well in advance of a week before their deaths when they finally decide who they want there.
Security concerns would only be a good reason if the Imam requested was a T-1000. If not they should do the same thing as they do with any other visitor to the prison.
They're not expected to employ the guy, just let him attend the specific execution as requested. My understanding of executions is that they're generally a one and done kind of thing. Once you've executed the guy his spiritual advisor probably doesn't need to be put on retainer.
It is reasonable to expect them to have their affairs in order, but that's a separate issue. If they said "you're right, they should provide equal access to religious counselling to all people who request them in a timely manner" then that'd be addressing the discrimination issue. The Supreme Court are able to make that kind of distinction. They're smart folks. That said I'm not sure how much notice they need to let a priest in. It's a prison, they have people visit pretty often. You'd think it'd just be a case of "make sure he's not smuggling anything in" and "make sure the guy who left is the same as the one who came in". I'm no prison security expert but if a prison can't secure itself against a priest then they're probably not very good at their jobs.
|
Maybe Ned Stark had a point. Maybe executions should be public and carried out by the sentencing magistrate
|
United States41996 Posts
On April 03 2019 13:28 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 10:11 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. Yes, "do it right." Set no precedent that last minute requests will be honored at the highest court in the land. Delay two decades to three decades or even four. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I see your questions of religion do not extend to Pastafarianism, and I suggest you plea before the mighty Flying Spaghetti Monster to why you are willing to deny his disciples their religious rights. Or do you only recognize official state-sanctioned religions? I don't recognize any religion as being legitimate, personally, but that's neither here not there because I'm not a sociopath. However, if you're going to have it set up, by law, where only retained clergypeople are allowed, then you need to have one of every legal faith/denomination that is recognized, by law. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Presuming we had some areas of Minnesota with a predominantly Muslim population on death row, it’s legitimate to pay an imam and refuse Christian requests submitted close to the actual date of execution. You haven’t recognized any rules setting aside how to recognize religions you favor and those you don’t. I see I brought up pastafarians with good use. You will refer to laws you don’t define and periods of request you don’t discuss. Two weeks is plain religious bigotry, Peter says a month at minimum, and Paul says the day before and calls both priors the worst of bigots.
You only need to pick certain religions you favour if you have a rule that says only religious representatives that are already employed by the prison are allowed. You're grandfathering in an arbitrary rule and then declaring that the result is unworkable.
|
On April 03 2019 10:46 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters." You know that's not a good look, right?
You should have some idea of the alternative, rather than just arguing optics and asserting religious discrimination. That isn’t a good look either. Does it really change much if a Buddhist is retained and a Christian submits his request very late in the process?
|
On April 03 2019 13:32 IgnE wrote:
Maybe Ned Stark had a point. Maybe executions should be public and carried out by the sentencing magistrate
At least attend. That would solve the problem the freshmen judges deciding that filing deadlines was a reason to deny access to religious counsel.
|
On April 03 2019 13:37 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 10:46 NewSunshine wrote:On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters." You know that's not a good look, right? You should have some idea of the alternative, rather than just arguing optics and asserting religious discrimination. That isn’t a good look either. Does it really change much if a Buddhist is retained and a Christian submits his request very late in the process?
Yeah, the Christians would claim discrimination.
|
On April 03 2019 13:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 13:37 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 10:46 NewSunshine wrote:On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters." You know that's not a good look, right? You should have some idea of the alternative, rather than just arguing optics and asserting religious discrimination. That isn’t a good look either. Does it really change much if a Buddhist is retained and a Christian submits his request very late in the process? Yeah, the Christians would claim discrimination.
Well, if the best change you can identify is just who's whining at the course of justice, I rest my case.
|
On April 03 2019 13:57 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 13:44 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2019 13:37 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 10:46 NewSunshine wrote:On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters." You know that's not a good look, right? You should have some idea of the alternative, rather than just arguing optics and asserting religious discrimination. That isn’t a good look either. Does it really change much if a Buddhist is retained and a Christian submits his request very late in the process? Yeah, the Christians would claim discrimination. Well, if the best change you can identify is just who's whining at the course of justice, I rest my case.
They would be correct too, as they were not receiving equal treatment. But I get that you believe filing deadlines are so important that you want to empower that state to deny religious free to death row inmates if they miss one. The first amendment and freedom of expression basic human rights, unless someone is going to be executed and then it’s all about that prison red tape. The executions must run on time, like the trains.
|
On April 03 2019 13:37 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 10:46 NewSunshine wrote:On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters." You know that's not a good look, right? You should have some idea of the alternative, rather than just arguing optics and asserting religious discrimination. That isn’t a good look either. Does it really change much if a Buddhist is retained and a Christian submits his request very late in the process?
I don't have to present alternatives, Kwark's idea would do just fine. Though I enjoy the false dichotomy and false equivalence.
And no. Besides the Christians claiming persecution, I would say they have that right, even if it isn't enshrined in law, just like I'm doing now. Because, like it or not, it's discrimination. In fact, most cases of long-standing "it is what it is" are about discrimination these days. You only seem to care about this one because it concerns Christian privilege.
|
On April 03 2019 14:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 13:57 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 13:44 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2019 13:37 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 10:46 NewSunshine wrote:On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters." You know that's not a good look, right? You should have some idea of the alternative, rather than just arguing optics and asserting religious discrimination. That isn’t a good look either. Does it really change much if a Buddhist is retained and a Christian submits his request very late in the process? Yeah, the Christians would claim discrimination. Well, if the best change you can identify is just who's whining at the course of justice, I rest my case. They would be correct too, as they were not receiving equal treatment. But I get that you believe filing deadlines are so important that you want to empower that state to deny religious free to death row inmates if they miss one. The first amendment and freedom of expression basic human rights, unless someone is going to be executed and then it’s all about that prison red tape. The executions must run on time, like the trains.
That's why I brought up with another the various gradations. One thinks the final second, another the final hour, another the final day, final week, 2 weeks, a month. They're all going to rely on the trains running on time and denial of basic human rights.
I'm just not going to make hay whining about Religious Group A engaging in purposeful discrimination against Group B when nobody's making cogent arguments towards that principle.
(Now queue the Marx Brothers skit where every one of them gets successful delays the week before their execution. You see, they wanted a Reformed Baptist instead of a Southern Baptist...)
I can't even get a prison to put a signature on a piece of paper if I give them a month ffs.
|
On April 03 2019 14:22 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 14:05 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2019 13:57 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 13:44 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2019 13:37 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 10:46 NewSunshine wrote:On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters." You know that's not a good look, right? You should have some idea of the alternative, rather than just arguing optics and asserting religious discrimination. That isn’t a good look either. Does it really change much if a Buddhist is retained and a Christian submits his request very late in the process? Yeah, the Christians would claim discrimination. Well, if the best change you can identify is just who's whining at the course of justice, I rest my case. They would be correct too, as they were not receiving equal treatment. But I get that you believe filing deadlines are so important that you want to empower that state to deny religious free to death row inmates if they miss one. The first amendment and freedom of expression basic human rights, unless someone is going to be executed and then it’s all about that prison red tape. The executions must run on time, like the trains. That's why I brought up with another the various gradations. One thinks the final second, another the final hour, another the final day, final week, 2 weeks, a month. They're all going to rely on the trains running on time and denial of basic human rights. I'm just not going to make hay whining about Religious Group A engaging in purposeful discrimination against Group B when nobody's making cogent arguments towards that principle.(Now queue the Marx Brothers skit where every one of them gets successful delays the week before their execution. You see, they wanted a Reformed Baptist instead of a Southern Baptist...) I can't even get a prison to put a signature on a piece of paper if I give them a month ffs.
Are we just pretending not to see people's arguments now? Do I get to do this too?
|
On April 03 2019 14:15 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 13:37 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 10:46 NewSunshine wrote:On April 03 2019 09:48 Danglars wrote:On April 03 2019 09:20 Gahlo wrote:On April 03 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote:Certainly don't be stupid enough to make this about Muslim vs Christian. I hear all the time here that there's this tremendous cost keeping people on death row for decades waiting for appeals (etc), and I don't want this sudden flip towards allowing all kinds of delay proceedings at the very last moment. You're the disingenuous one trying to call disingenuous bs on others. It's just another case of "If you're going to do it, do it right." Plenty of us would rather he not be up for execution, but that isn't an option. You want a death penalty? Don't bitch when there's flack because it isn't being done properly. This bullshit line of thinking is "leaving Syria" all over again. edit: To tack on, don't think you got away with lumping Islam in with Pastafarianism, which isn't a religion that is recognized by the US government, in your flippant dismissal of the religious option(singular) available. I see you. I give the example of Pastafarianism because neither yourself nor any others have stated the number of spiritual advisors that a prison that conducts executions must retain before religious rights are granted. I don't recall that being the burden placed upon us for pointing out why favoring Christianity alone is problematic. "Ahh shit, we can only pick one, better pick the only religion that matters." You know that's not a good look, right? You should have some idea of the alternative, rather than just arguing optics and asserting religious discrimination. That isn’t a good look either. Does it really change much if a Buddhist is retained and a Christian submits his request very late in the process? I don't have to present alternatives, Kwark's idea would do just fine. Though I enjoy the false dichotomy and false equivalence. And no. Besides the Christians claiming persecution, I would say they have that right, even if it isn't enshrined in law, just like I'm doing now. Because, like it or not, it's discrimination. In fact, most cases of long-standing "it is what it is" are about discrimination these days. You only seem to care about this one because it concerns Christian privilege.
Suit yourself in what you think you have or don't have to do. You're the one arguing that it's not your burden, or rather asserting it is not so.
You're much better off addressing the principle at hand, instead of both claiming it's Christian privilege and Christians would have equal cause to claim persecution. I see no point in continuing any argument that strips down to presuming I'm only doing such and such because of what faith or race or sex I am. It's better left in places like the_Donald and Breitbart comment sections for people to fire back "You're only defending him because he's a Muslim. You'd have no problem if it was a Christian."
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
